April/Faulkner Book: The Sound and the Fury

[Ryduce]

Sorry I couldn't help it.

I don't think that Quentin has incestuous feelings towards his sister.I think he is ashamed of the fact that he is a virgin himself.I remember him having a conversation with his father about virginity,and his father telling him it was a made up concept.I think Caddy's promiscuity drives him kind of crazy.

[chmpman]

I got a vibe about the incestuous feelings and I plan to reread that part to see if I can sort out why I got that idea.

[papayahed]

Sorry I couldn't help it.

I don't think that Quentin has incestuous feelings towards his sister.I think he is ashamed of the fact that he is a virgin himself.I remember him having a conversation with his father about virginity,and his father telling him it was a made up concept.I think Caddy's promiscuity drives him kind of crazy.

That's the feeling I got also, and if he said he had sex with Caddie it would prove he wasn't a virgin.

[emily655321]

I get the impression that Quentin has serious ownership issues with Caddy. He wants to control her completely, and this obsessive thinking is so deeply engrained in him that it becomes enraveled with everything else he thinks about, which, for a teenage boy, is bound to include sex. But his lie about incest is also the result of his confused attempts to restore honor to his family. Quentin has an instinctive need to hold together a disintegrating family that was once very important, and he becomes caught up on Caddy's "honor" as a symbol and focal point of that mission. But once that is gone, it drives him into a panic. If he can make it seem as though she hasn't been running around town, that's one step, but to do so he must construct an even less acceptable scenario. If he can't take the dishonor away, he can at least link the two of them to the same dishonor, and thereby regain the sense of control over her which has hitherto supported his fragile ego. Somewhere along the line, Quentin's desperate attempt to maintain honor through Caddy's virginity mutated into an obsession with controlling Caddy herself, and his very sense of self became dependent on her. By the time she cast off that honor, Quentin's focus had shifted completely from the theme of honor to his obsession with her, so much so that the idea of mutual dishonor was more appealing to him than maintaining his own honor separate from her. When he finally lost her through marriage, his sense of self was lost as well, and all he had lived for. His father's dismissal of his son's despair as "temporary" (Quentin keeps repeating this word in disbelief during his father's lecture to him) only furthers this sense of despair, and his depression takes over completely from there.

[Virgil]

I get the impression that Quentin has serious ownership issues with Caddy. He wants to control her completely, and this obsessive thinking is so deeply engrained in him that it becomes enraveled with everything else he thinks about, which, for a teenage boy, is bound to include sex.

I don't know if I agree here. I'm also not sure what you mean by ownership. What would you expect an older brother to do about his sixteenish year old promiscuous sister back in 1910?

But his lie about incest is also the result of his confused attempts to restore honor to his family.

But wouldn't the thought of his incest, if true, be even more disgraceful? How does that lie restore honor?

Quentin has an instinctive need to hold together a disintegrating family that was once very important, and he becomes caught up on Caddy's "honor" as a symbol and focal point of that mission.

I agree completely here.

But once that is gone, it drives him into a panic. If he can make it seem as though she hasn't been running around town, that's one step, but to do so he must construct an even less acceptable scenario. If he can't take the dishonor away, he can at least link the two of them to the same dishonor, and thereby regain the sense of control over her which has hitherto supported his fragile ego. Somewhere along the line, Quentin's desperate attempt to maintain honor through Caddy's virginity mutated into an obsession with controlling Caddy herself, and his very sense of self became dependent on her. By the time she cast off that honor, Quentin's focus had shifted completely from the theme of honor to his obsession with her, so much so that the idea of mutual dishonor was more appealing to him than maintaining his own honor separate from her. When he finally lost her through marriage, his sense of self was lost as well, and all he had lived for. His father's dismissal of his son's despair as "temporary" (Quentin keeps repeating this word in disbelief during his father's lecture to him) only furthers this sense of despair, and his depression takes over completely from there.

So you're saying the reason of his suicide was because of Caddie. I'm not convinced, nor have I put together a comprehensive reason for the suicide yet. I'll return to it. You also seem to be saying that sub-consciously he does want to sleep with her. I know I brought that up earlier, but I'm not sure I believe that either.


While we're on the Quentin section, what is the point of the the little Italian girl and her brother? And why does Faulkner pick an Italian as the ethnicity?

[Basil]

But wouldn't the thought of his incest, if true, be even more disgraceful? How does that lie restore honor?

I think this passage bears quoting (formatted for clarity):

and i: you dont believe i am serious
and he: i think you are too serious to give me any cause for alarm you wouldnt have felt driven to the expedient of telling me you had committed incest otherwise
and i: i wasnt lying i wasnt lying
and he: you wanted to sublimate a piece of natural human folly into a horror and then exorcise it with truth
and i: it was to isolate her out of the loud world so that it would have to flee us of necessity and then the sound of it would be as though it had never been
and he: did you try to make her do it
and i: i was afraid to i was afraid she might and then it wouldnt have done any good but if i could tell you we did it would have been so and then the others wouldnt be so and then the world would roar away

The story of incest would achieve several objectives. It would transform Caddy that blackguard Caddy into an innocent victim, unable to withstand the seductive sexual advances of her own brother, as well as eliminate "the others"; it would elevate Quentin to the role of Byronic hero (unvirgin) whose unsatiable sexual appetite leads him to take even the most forbidden fruit with impunity; and finally it transforms the Compson saga into a kind of Greek tragedy as opposed to the sad decline in fortunes it most resembles. I read an article once about Faulkner's treatment of incest, and one of the interesting points made by the author was that the different types of incest have received different treatment in literature throughout the years. Parent-child incest (usually father-daughter) is almost always portrayed as negative, the oppressive father representing the state imposing his will upon the innocent; whereas sibling incest has often been portrayed in a positive light, particularly by the Romantics, as a sort of idealistic--almost utopian--type of love. So, in Quentin's eyes, the lie of incest creates a narrative more pleasing than the truth.

[Virgil]

That's interesting, Basil. So you're saying he's trying to absorbed the fault and release Caddie from guilt. I think I would partially agree with this. Incest is still a pretty horrible thing. I don't know it matters what the Romantics thought. As for Greek tradgey, well is that what Quentin is thinking? I'm not sure I see that anywhere. What would be more disgraceful to a family: a promiscuous daughter or children who commit incest? Although I still think it's Quentin's relationship with his father that drives him to suicide.

[Pendragon]

Faulkner himself addressed this, actually (once again, on the page I've linked to twice so far on this thread ).I'm afraid I don't agree with this, either. I think when people think this way, it often leads to the sort of mass-worship of authors or artists that made you question your own judgment in the first place. Just because someone has a reputation of genius, it doesn't mean you should jump on the band wagon. If you don't like it, don't assume it's because you're somehow not good enough to appreciate it. Sometimes things are just overrated. Sometimes something just isn't, as Pen said, your cup of tea. I don't like Faulkner, either. I don't like Hemingway. It doesn't mean they're bad, it means I don't enjoy them. I think Moby Dick is a load of poorly written c---, and I rail against it constantly. I tend to do this too much, with an unconscious intent to balance the scales of opinion (is it still unconscious if you realize you're doing it?). Anyway, there's plenty of modern art that's stinking up museum walls because people are afraid of questioning the talent of someone who might become the next Van Gogh. They think, "If I say I don't like it, it's an admission that I'm too simple to understand it." No, don't fall into that way of thinking. It does not benefit the common good.

Let me stir the pot again here, to comment on something Emily has brought up. Do I consider myself incapable of understanding Faulkner, so I dislike the writing? Hardly. I read at college level before Third Grade. I just know what I find to be interesting and what I find to be dull. (By the way, Emily, I second your opinion on Moby Dick). Emily compares the writing process to art, a great comparison. If I don't like a Pollack painting does that mean I'm somehow stupid? I think not. I just prefer a painting of something more natural, not dribbles of paint on a canvas.

[emily655321]

What would you expect an older brother to do about his sixteenish year old promiscuous sister back in 1910?

I don't believe most of them went off their nut and attempted to make their father believe they'd committed incest. Quentin's problems run a lot deeper than your average older brother.

But his lie about incest is also the result of his confused attempts to restore honor to his family.

But wouldn't the thought of his incest, if true, be even more disgraceful? How does that lie restore honor?

I actually address that question in my post. Here:

Somewhere along the line, Quentin's desperate attempt to maintain honor through Caddy's virginity mutated into an obsession with controlling Caddy herself, and his very sense of self became dependent on her. By the time she cast off that honor, Quentin's focus had shifted completely from the theme of honor to his obsession with her, so much so that the idea of mutual dishonor was more appealing to him than maintaining his own honor separate from her.

It began in an attempt to restore honor in the traditional sense, but his obsession warped his idea of honor.

So you're saying the reason of his suicide was because of Caddie....You also seem to be saying that sub-consciously he does want to sleep with her.

No, perhaps I wasn't clear. If Quentin committed suicide, it was because he was psychologically disturbed, not because Caddy ran around, nor because his father was unsympathetic. External factors are not the root cause of any suicide. Quentin became obsessed with Caddy because he was disturbed, not the other way around. What followed acted as a series of triggers, and in that way Caddy did trigger his suicide. But the key to remember in any suicide is that if it wasn't one thing, it would be another. Quentin's mind had a need to be obsessed, and Caddy was just what it latched onto.

I don't at all believe that sexual attraction was the cause of Quentin's obsession with Caddy. As Basil very astutely quoted (thank you, Basil), "i was afraid to i was afraid she might and then it wouldnt have done any good but if i could tell you we did it would have been so..." If Quentin had wanted to have sex with Caddy, he would have done it. He had multiple opportunities alone with her, and he was able to overpower her—therein lie the mountains of significance in all the times he holds Caddy's wrists and says, "Stop I'm stronger than you stop." But, as he tells his father, sex wouldn't matter if nobody knew about it. In fact, it would be best if it didn't happen, but people thought it did. So there is a direct admission from Quentin that he didn't actually want to have sex with Caddy; as he says, he wanted to do something so horrible that the rest of the world would avoid them completely and he could have his little sister all to himself.

While we're on the Quentin section, what is the point of the the little Italian girl and her brother? And why does Faulkner pick an Italian as the ethnicity?

The little girl episode 1) establishes Quentin as a sympathetic character, where otherwise his behavior toward Caddy could be misconstrued as that of an abusive and domineering brother. 2) It demonstrates his deep need for a little sister figure. That part Faulkner is a bit heavy-handed with, I think, what with the relentless repetition of the term "sister" (his first words to her are "Hello, sister"), and the flashbacks that often follow close on the heels of that term, but this is perhaps less Faulkner's assertion to the reader than it is Quentin's assertion to himself. He's "lost" one sister, so he temporarily adopts another—one who embodies complete innocence and dependence upon him, even to the point of not talking and following him like a shadow. She's his ideal.

I don't know that there's necessarily significance to her being Italian. Perhaps it's to show that Quentin isn't a bigot, in contrast to the people he meets who say, "Foreigners," disparragingly (as well as to Jason's chapter, later, in which he is terribly cruel to Dilsey and her family). In this way Quentin's kindness and respectfulness is reinforced. That's just a guess of mine, though.

The story of incest would achieve several objectives. It would transform Caddy that blackguard Caddy into an innocent victim, unable to withstand the seductive sexual advances of her own brother, as well as eliminate "the others"; it would elevate Quentin to the role of Byronic hero (unvirgin) whose unsatiable sexual appetite leads him to take even the most forbidden fruit with impunity; and finally it transforms the Compson saga into a kind of Greek tragedy as opposed to the sad decline in fortunes it most resembles.

I agree with all of this, I think you've put it very well. The idea of Greek tragedy is one that hadn't occurred to me at all, but which seems to fit perfectly. It's a great parallel for the imperial air of Southern aristocracy, with all the import it puts on family, and the subsequent deterioration and fall of that system. And your point about Quentin's attempt to turn irrevocable family embarrassment into a more grandiose family tragedy hits on what I was trying to say before.

As for Greek tradgey, well is that what Quentin is thinking? I'm not sure I see that anywhere.

I don't think it's what Quentin's thinking, but rather what Faulkner was thinking when he wrote Quentin. Quentin is an unwitting vehicle for this idea.

[papayahed]

The story of incest would achieve several objectives. It would transform Caddy that blackguard Caddy into an innocent victim, unable to withstand the seductive sexual advances of her own brother, as well as eliminate "the others"; it would elevate Quentin to the role of Byronic hero (unvirgin) whose unsatiable sexual appetite leads him to take even the most forbidden fruit with impunity; and finally it transforms the Compson saga into a kind of Greek tragedy as opposed to the sad decline in fortunes it most resembles. I read an article once about Faulkner's treatment of incest, and one of the interesting points made by the author was that the different types of incest have received different treatment in literature throughout the years. Parent-child incest (usually father-daughter) is almost always portrayed as negative, the oppressive father representing the state imposing his will upon the innocent; whereas sibling incest has often been portrayed in a positive light, particularly by the Romantics, as a sort of idealistic--almost utopian--type of love. So, in Quentin's eyes, the lie of incest creates a narrative more pleasing than the truth.

I'd agree with this also. I can't help but feel that Quentins "obsession" with Caddie has more to do with how he is percieved (being a virgin) then simply being obsessed with Caddie.

If Quentin was that obsessed with Caddie, wouldn't he have gone looking for her after she ran off, and how could he have possibly packed up and headed up north to school if the obsession was that great. And why wait til the end of the year to commit suicide?

[emily655321]

And why wait til the end of the year to commit suicide?

Quentin puts a lot of importance on finishing out the school year because of the guilt he feels for Benjy's pasture being sold.

...I have sold Benjy's pasture and I can be dead in Harvard Caddy said in the caverns and the grottoes of the sea tumbling peacefully to the wavering tides because Harvard is such a fine sound forty acres is no high price for a fine sound. A fine dead sound we will swap Benjy's pasture for a fine dead sound.

Quentin knows long before he kills himself that sending him to Harvard will prove a waste of money and effort. The clock is already ticking (no pun intended... all right, bad pun intended). His father encourages him to go up to Massachusetts to forget about Caddy, and he dutifully obeys, but it's very likely he's already planning his suicide. He also dutifully completes the year, so that at least Benjy's pasture (rather, the money gotten from it) will be put to full use. Like everything else in Quentin's thought processes, it makes no logical sense, but there is great emotional importance in doing it in exacting detail. (This is one of the aspects of the suicidal mindset that Faulkner hits staggeringly spot-on.)

[Virgil]

I don't believe most of them went off their nut and attempted to make their father believe they'd committed incest. Quentin's problems run a lot deeper than your average older brother.

Yes, aand I still think the father is the problem.

If Quentin committed suicide, it was because he was psychologically disturbed, not because Caddy ran around, nor because his father was unsympathetic. External factors are not the root cause of any suicide.

Yes, in real life. But Faulkner has to supply a rationale for the actions in the novel. Unless Faulkner is interested in understanding mental illness (and I don't think that's what this novel is about) then he's obligated to show cause for Q's actions.

Quentin became obsessed with Caddy because he was disturbed, not the other way around.

Ok, then why was he disturbed? His father?

I don't at all believe that sexual attraction was the cause of Quentin's obsession with Caddy. As Basil very astutely quoted (thank you, Basil), "i was afraid to i was afraid she might and then it wouldnt have done any good but if i could tell you we did it would have been so..." If Quentin had wanted to have sex with Caddy, he would have done it. He had multiple opportunities alone with her, and he was able to overpower her—

Well, that sounds like rape, not sex.

But, as he tells his father, sex wouldn't matter if nobody knew about it. In fact, it would be best if it didn't happen, but people thought it did. So there is a direct admission from Quentin that he didn't actually want to have sex with Caddy; as he says, he wanted to do something so horrible that the rest of the world would avoid them completely and he could have his little sister all to himself.The little girl episode 1) establishes Quentin as a sympathetic character, where otherwise his behavior toward Caddy could be misconstrued as that of an abusive and domineering brother. 2) It demonstrates his deep need for a little sister figure. That part Faulkner is a bit heavy-handed with, I think, what with the relentless repetition of the term "sister" (his first words to her are "Hello, sister"), and the flashbacks that often follow close on the heels of that term, but this is perhaps less Faulkner's assertion to the reader than it is Quentin's assertion to himself. He's "lost" one sister, so he temporarily adopts another—one who embodies complete innocence and dependence upon him, even to the point of not talking and following him like a shadow. She's his ideal.

Very good. I completely agree with this.

I don't know that there's necessarily significance to her being Italian. Perhaps it's to show that Quentin isn't a bigot, in contrast to the people he meets who say, "Foreigners," disparragingly (as well as to Jason's chapter, later, in which he is terribly cruel to Dilsey and her family). In this way Quentin's kindness and respectfulness is reinforced. That's just a guess of mine, though.

I think the significance is to show the contrast between old world people (who have a reputation for honor) and with the new world and with what he's failed in doing.

...I have sold Benjy's pasture and I can be dead in Harvard Caddy said in the caverns and the grottoes of the sea tumbling peacefully to the wavering tides because Harvard is such a fine sound forty acres is no high price for a fine sound. A fine dead sound we will swap Benjy's pasture for a fine dead sound.

Quentin knows long before he kills himself that sending him to Harvard will prove a waste of money and effort. The clock is already ticking (no pun intended... all right, bad pun intended). His father encourages him to go up to Massachusetts to forget about Caddy, and he dutifully obeys, but it's very likely he's already planning his suicide. He also dutifully completes the year, so that at least Benjy's pasture (rather, the money gotten from it) will be put to full use. Like everything else in Quentin's thought processes, it makes no logical sense, but there is great emotional importance in doing it in exacting detail. (This is one of the aspects of the suicidal mindset that Faulkner hits staggeringly spot-on.)

But it's not put to full use. He doesn't graduate. He kills himself and so his whole education is a waste of money, whether he finishes the year or not.

One thing we should discuss is the theme of loss. It's everywhere in the novel. This is off the top of my head, but here are the losses that I can think of off the top of my head:

Benjy: his pasture, Caddie, his testicles
Quentin: his honor, his education, his life.
Jason: money, relationships
Caddie: innocence, virginity, her daughter, her family

Would anyone like to add to this?

I get the impression that Quentin has serious ownership issues with Caddy. He wants to control her completely, and this obsessive thinking is so deeply engrained in him that it becomes enraveled with everything else he thinks about, which, for a teenage boy, is bound to include sex.

You know, emily, after going back and relooking at Quentin's interaction with Caddie, I'm going to reverse myself and say you are right. I still don't think ownership is the right word (actually I still don't know how to understand the word as you apply it here), but I do think controling is very apt. Q's interaction with the little Italian girl makes me think he wants to go back to his childhood relationship with Caddie. He doesn't want time--the great theme of the novel--to move on. He wants to freeze in that childhood, innocent state, and so his virginity. And so also the symbol of the stopped (frozen) watch. And so he's trying to control her and his environment from moving forward, time-wise.

BTW (I'm going to blush as I say this ) does anyone think that his jumping into the river is sort of symbolic of his losing his virginity, entering a wet slit (vagina-like fissure). I'm sorry. I'm still blushing, but it had to be said.

[emily655321]

Well, water is often used to symbolize the womb. And we all know how Faulkner loves his symbols... I guess you'd have to ask him.

By "ownership," I really just meant control; that he wanted authority over her. She was his sister, and in that way he felt she belonged to him.

Q's interaction with the little Italian girl makes me think he wants to go back to his childhood relationship with Caddie. He doesn't want time--the great theme of the novel--to move on. He wants to freeze in that childhood, innocent state, and so his virginity. And so also the symbol of the stopped (frozen) watch. And so he's trying to control her and his environment from moving forward, time-wise.

I agree with you here.

I certainly get the impression that the loss of virginity, as with his incest story, is more a matter of outward show for Quentin, rather than inward desire. He's more embarrassed of his virginity than he is sexually driven.

[papayahed]

By "ownership," I really just meant control; that he wanted authority over her. She was his sister, and in that way he felt she belonged to him.I agree with you here.

I think also, that more so then control - Quentin wanted Caddy to fit into his notion of what a southern girl should be, the standards of the old south. (hmmm... I guess that's what control is huh?)

I wonder why there is no flashbacks of Quentin interacting with Jason? The only time Quentin mentions Jason is to say "Let him go to Harvard" And that's another thing, they sold the pasture to pay for the first year of Harvard. How were they going to pay for the second year?

[Ryduce]

In the final section of the story Dilsey says something along the the lines of,"Ise sees de beginning,and now Ise sees de ending."



What does she mean by this????