Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

[NikolaiI]

Let me ask you nick, how you would want us to lead life? Without modern medicine? That requires factories and factory workers ("cogs" as you call them) to make medicine and equipment. Do you want us to live with cars? Do you us want to live without electricity? How many people are you going to put out of work? Do you us want to live without plumbing? Or airconditioning? Or dishwashers? Or without sheetrock for your walls? Or concrete for you your home foundation or wood (trees cut down, the horror!) for your home? Or are you going to plant all your food? what are you going to use for toilet paper nick, when you find out that there is a factory of cogs that make toilet paper so you can wipe your pampered rear?

I bet you no one would live like that. I see from your profile you're 19 years old. Well, when you grow up and live real life, come back and debate this with me, especially when you've gone and tried to live your utopia. Then you can tell me how easy it is.

I think we should produce our food locally. If there were a crises in our current situation, there could be lots of starvation in the cities, as it would be hard to bring food in due to traffic concerns. I think we should restructure our cities, among other things. I think sushil had an interesting point in that a lot of our concerns have to do with things that are unnecessary, and as is proven, do not make us happier.

Another big problem, that has to do with our direct effects on the world, is global warming. There are two antarctic shelves; one of them is on land, and one of them in the water. If the one on land went into the water, it would raise ocean levels 20-60 feet, and this would decimate a lot of the population that lives near the coast. One way to cool down the earth would be to put reflectors in the sky. This is doable. Also, the first species of life has become extinct, not due to our actions but due to global warming. This species was a snail.

Our ages are not relevant to this, and frankly I found your response hostile. If your next post is in a similar tone, I won't reply.

[Scheherazade]

Please refrain from personalising your comments.

[Virgil]

I think we should produce our food locally. If there were a crises in our current situation, there could be lots of starvation in the cities, as it would be hard to bring food in due to traffic concerns. I think we should restructure our cities, among other things. I think sushil had an interesting point in that a lot of our concerns have to do with things that are unnecessary, and as is proven, do not make us happier.

Another big problem, that has to do with our direct effects on the world, is global warming. There are two antarctic shelves; one of them is on land, and one of them in the water. If the one on land went into the water, it would raise ocean levels 20-60 feet, and this would decimate a lot of the population that lives near the coast. One way to cool down the earth would be to put reflectors in the sky. This is doable. Also, the first species of life has become extinct, not due to our actions but due to global warming. This species was a snail.

Our ages are not relevant to this, and frankly I found your response hostile. If your next post is in a similar tone, I won't reply.

Well, I guess it did come across hostile. I meant it as sarcastic and perhaps went over board. I apologize for that.

But I find your solutions simple at best. I was going to say utopian, but frankly that is even too lofty a term. Do you think anyone can live by raising their own vegtables, without electricity, without factories, without modern medicine? Do you think other than a few people as yourself that anyone would want to? You know, we tried this once. It was called the middle ages.

[NikolaiI]

I know it is a simple thing to say, produce the food locally. But I think it is a very good idea. And that doesn't mean rejecting all technology at all, it just means we rethink the ways our cities and populations are structured/located/fed. As for the other, it matters not what you and I say here on lit-net. Even if I thought we should reject all technology, which might be best for the species in the long term, it would not happen. And let's say we rejected such things, and yet still butchered each other- then it would be as bad as now, or worse. If we rejected them, and figured out a way to live in peace (I know, I know, a lot of people don't want this..) then it might be better. I do accept this as being utopian and idealist, and I do admit myself to be utopian and idealist, it is just how I am. If you want to talk about that, fine. My father does, he comes from a more cynical point of view, and I could get into all the personal history and background, but I'd rather not. But suffice it to say that I am not unaware of reality, I actually pride myself on my wakefulness...and then let go of that pride.

..And when I say "as bad as now" I do not mean anything particular by it. I do not, in fact, mean things are bad now. But we cannot really go into that, for it is politics.

[Virgil]

I know it is a simple thing to say, produce the food locally. But I think it is a very good idea. And that doesn't mean rejecting all technology at all, it just means we rethink the ways our cities and populations are structured/located/fed.

OK, so paint a picture for me as to how this would work? Rethink for me what cities and life should be like.

As for the other, it matters not what you and I say here on lit-net. Even if I thought we should reject all technology, which might be best for the species in the long term, it would not happen. And let's say we rejected such things, and yet still butchered each other- then it would be as bad as now, or worse. If we rejected them, and figured out a way to live in peace (I know, I know, a lot of people don't want this..) then it might be better. I do accept this as being utopian and idealist, and I do admit myself to be utopian and idealist, it is just how I am. If you want to talk about that, fine. My father does, he comes from a more cynical point of view, and I could get into all the personal history and background, but I'd rather not. But suffice it to say that I am not unaware of reality, I actually pride myself on my wakefulness...and then let go of that pride.

No, you don't have to tell me about your personal history. And you sound like a nice young man. I have my ideals too, it's just that they are somewhat different than yours. I wish for humanity, everywhere, in all countries, to live at the highest standard of living. And at peace. I just believe how we get there is different than how you think we should get there. To summarize my point of view, industry and modern technology, in contrast to Sushil, has made people's lives far better, and the spread of that technology to all people would make people's lives better. Don't tell me the suffering that goes on in Africa would not be helped by a modern way of life.

[sushil_yadav]

Well, Sushil, if you don't want to enjoy the benefits of the modern world, you don't have to. Good luck. I for one thank God I live in the modern world. I enjoy the modern world with all of its comforts and reasonable work days, and if people were presented with the options of pre-industrial with industrial, then I am certain almost everyone would choose the modern world. Even you I doubt lives in a pre-industrial manner. Do you live in a hut? Do you have plumbing? Do you have electricity? Come on, let's get real.

Virgil,

Sure, you live in the modern world.

You live in America.
You live in the country where 5% of world population is consuming 40% of world resources.

The entire world knows "The Great American Dream is a Nightmare for the Planet".

It is you who needs to get real - it is you who needs to do some introspection.

sushil_yadav

[Logos]

Mod Note: any more negative personal comments directed at other members will get this closed.

[Virgil]

Virgil,

Sure, you live in the modern world.

You live in America.
You live in the country where 5% of world population is consuming 40% of world resources.

The entire world knows "The Great American Dream is a Nightmare for the Planet".

It is you who needs to get real - it is you who needs to do some introspection.

sushil_yadav

The US is consuming 40% of the world's resources? Where did you get that? Probably bogus. And even if we were, we're paying for it, so tell the other parts of the world not to sell it to us. No introspection will ever get me to not live my dream. Look, you want to live like a pauper or a caveman feel free. Don't tell me how to live my life.

[sushil_yadav]

Industrial Society is destroying necessary things [Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land] for making unnecessary things [Consumer Goods].

When we make consumer goods we kill Animals/ Trees, Air/ Water and Land - directly or indirectly.

Industrial Society destroys ecosystems - all Industrial Societies destroy ecosystems.

It hardly matters whether it is "Capitalist Industrial Society" - "Communist Industrial Society" - or "Socialist Industrial Society".

Industrial Society destroys ecosystems at every stage of its functioning - when consumer goods are produced - when consumer goods are used - when consumer goods are discarded/ recycled.

Raw material for industry is obtained by cutting up Forests. It is extracted by mining/ digging up the earth. It comes by destroying/ killing Trees, Animals and Land.

Industries/ Factories use Water. The water that comes out of Factories is contaminated with hundreds of toxic chemicals. Industry kills Water. What to speak of Rivers - entire Oceans have been polluted.

Industry/ Factories burn millions of tonnes of fuel and when raw material is melted/ heated up, hundreds of toxic chemicals are released into the atmosphere. Industry kills Air.

Industrial Society has covered millions of square miles of land with cement and concrete. Industry kills Land.

When consumer goods are discarded/ thrown away in landfills it again leads to destruction of ecosystems.

When consumer goods are recycled, hundreds of toxic chemicals are released into air, water and land.

Consumer goods are sold/ marketed through a network of millions of kilometers of rail / road network and shipping routes which causes destruction of all ecosystems that come in the way.


"Growth Rate" - "Economy Rate" - "GDP"

These are figures of "Ecocide".
These are figures of "crimes against Nature".
These are figures of "destruction of Ecosystems".
These are figures of "Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality".


sushil_yadav
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

[Granny5]

Industrial Society is destroying necessary things [Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land] for making unnecessary things [Consumer Goods].

When we make consumer goods we kill Animals/ Trees, Air/ Water and Land - directly or indirectly.

Industrial Society destroys ecosystems - all Industrial Societies destroy ecosystems.

It hardly matters whether it is "Capitalist Industrial Society" - "Communist Industrial Society" - or "Socialist Industrial Society".

Industrial Society destroys ecosystems at every stage of its functioning - when consumer goods are produced - when consumer goods are used - when consumer goods are discarded/ recycled.

Raw material for industry is obtained by cutting up Forests. It is extracted by mining/ digging up the earth. It comes by destroying/ killing Trees, Animals and Land.

Industries/ Factories use Water. The water that comes out of Factories is contaminated with hundreds of toxic chemicals. Industry kills Water. What to speak of Rivers - entire Oceans have been polluted.

Industry/ Factories burn millions of tonnes of fuel and when raw material is melted/ heated up, hundreds of toxic chemicals are released into the atmosphere. Industry kills Air.

Industrial Society has covered millions of square miles of land with cement and concrete. Industry kills Land.

When consumer goods are discarded/ thrown away in landfills it again leads to destruction of ecosystems.

When consumer goods are recycled, hundreds of toxic chemicals are released into air, water and land.

Consumer goods are sold/ marketed through a network of millions of kilometers of rail / road network and shipping routes which causes destruction of all ecosystems that come in the way.


"Growth Rate" - "Economy Rate" - "GDP"

These are figures of "Ecocide".
These are figures of "crimes against Nature".
These are figures of "destruction of Ecosystems".
These are figures of "Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality".


sushil_yadav
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

So what do you propose?
No manifactured goods?
No heating?
No home building?
No food production?
Tell us, what do you propose to remendy the problem? If you are so sure that all these things are evil and doing harm to everything, you must have some solution in mind. Please share it with us.

[Morrisonhotel]

You seem a little defensive--I didn't say there was something 'wrong' with it. Just pointing out a fact. But I always wonder why people (like this guy too) have to resort to posting their life's work in public discussion forums instead of having it published in a more scholarly/traditional manner.

Presumably because scholarly usually means peer-reviewed.

[NikolaiI]

I think if we disabled 99.9% of roads, stopped use of that much electricity and gas. disable most of the roads; we still live in our houses, and we can make houses, we just don't do it on such scales as before. produce the food locally and move it in a way that doesn't hurt the environment. Otherwise we will be dead very soon. Recreate trees, the one resource we really can renew, and hope for the best...

[Virgil]

I think if we disabled 99.9% of roads, stopped use of that much electricity and gas. disable most of the roads; we still live in our houses, and we can make houses, we just don't do it on such scales as before. produce the food locally and move it in a way that doesn't hurt the environment. Otherwise we will be dead very soon. Recreate trees, the one resource we really can renew, and hope for the best...

How long is "dead very soon?" Two months? Two years? Ten years? Let me know. I ned to prepare.

[Granny5]

I personally think that we shouldn't fuss about the things that we enjoy. If I felt that electric power was wrong and killing the world, I wouldn't use any. And if I felt that it was wrong to live in a home built by killing the world's trees, I wouldn't live in a home. How can anyone justify taking advantage of the comforts of modern life and complain about the evils of it at the same time? I like modern life.

[Midas]

If there is one thing that is constant in life, it is change. The life that exists today is because it has adapted to that change. The stone age did not end because the world ran out of stones. those living at the time slowly adapted to change which they eventually perceived was better.

Some people resist change, and suffer the consequences, which can vary according to the extent of their resistance.

Although the movement marked from the agrarian age to the industrial occurred some four hundred years ago (there is no precise beginning) it has been a progression of accelerating change since that time.

Technology, especially recent advances in information technology takes over from the mind of man which cannot keep pace. A bright young spark of our age;- William (Bill) Gates wrote a book 'Business at the speed of Thought.'

We are hampered by the inability to explore all the opportunities that even our present discoveries have brought forth. we have not developed our minds to anything near one quarter potential. ( I am being generous there)

How many people have expensive, state of the art, super fast computers, yet only use them for mundane tasks that even an old, cheaper version could do. To an extent, even I am guilty here. So it is not the lack of awareness that hold many back.

Is there any other past age in which you would like to serve your life sentence, than the one you are living now? Think first, and answer, to yourself, truthfully.
(I don't mean flip back in a time machine for a couple of hours, or so)

Change can often be 'uncomfortable,' it can make us insecure. We like the familiar. We have sayings like - better the devil you know........... This is what makes many stay in relationships which common sense, never mind their friends, tells them they should get out of.

It is a waste of time, and energy, looking to returning to the past, it is like wanting to return to our youth (if we've passed it). Time is a forward movement. Only the hands on a clock will move back, the time does not.

Some of my most unhappiest moments have been when I have tried to go back to my past, and, consequently, I won't enlarge.

Fighting lost causes, and wishing for the past, are fools pursuits. It wastes the one thing that is precious, and can never be replaced - TIME!

Therefore apply the mind to seeing benefits of the age, and, for better or for worse, adapting to them, and enjoying them. It's all you have got. Life, on earth, is not a practice run. Live it, love it, and seize the day.