Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 26

Thread: problem with matthew 8:4

  1. #1
    Registered User Shaman_Raman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    240
    Blog Entries
    5

    problem with matthew 8:4

    So in this verse, Jesus tells someone he's healed of leprosy to tell no one what Jesus has done for him. However, the loud mouth goes and tells anyway. Now why would Jesus do this if, from what other points of scripture reference, he knows the future? He must have known all along the guy would have spilled the beans, right?
    "We sat around, scratching the earth with our feet, half looking up for a sign of the end. And all the while it had long since come and gone." Alexi Murdoch

  2. #2
    Registered User Calidore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    5,071
    8:4 Then Jesus said to him, “See that you do not speak to anyone, but go, show yourself to a priest, and bring the offering6 that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.”

    I don't see anything about him ignoring Jesus' command for silence, though. Where was that?

    The NET Bible has the following note to this passage: "The command for silence was probably meant to last only until the cleansing took place with the priests and sought to prevent Jesus’ healings from becoming the central focus of the people’s reaction to him. See also 9:30, 12:16, 16:20, and 17:9 for other cases where Jesus asks for silence concerning him and his ministry."
    You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -- Mahatma Gandhi

  3. #3
    Registered User Shaman_Raman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    240
    Blog Entries
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by Calidore View Post
    8:4 Then Jesus said to him, “See that you do not speak to anyone, but go, show yourself to a priest, and bring the offering6 that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.”

    I don't see anything about him ignoring Jesus' command for silence, though. Where was that?

    The NET Bible has the following note to this passage: "The command for silence was probably meant to last only until the cleansing took place with the priests and sought to prevent Jesus’ healings from becoming the central focus of the people’s reaction to him. See also 9:30, 12:16, 16:20, and 17:9 for other cases where Jesus asks for silence concerning him and his ministry."
    That's because I goofed majorly, hahaha. I'm sorry Calidore, I meant Matthew 9:29-31.
    "29 And then he touched their eyes and said, 'according to your faith let it be done to you.'; 30 and their sight was restored. Jesus warned them sternly, 'see that no one knows about this.' 31 But they spread the news about him all over the region."


    I had been thinking on this for awhile, and when I came back to inquire about it, I think I rushed to find the verse, but I picked out the wrong one. So I understand that note on how Jesus wouldn't want his miracles being the central focus to him, but then why would he heal these men, knowing they were going to go talk about it anyway?
    "We sat around, scratching the earth with our feet, half looking up for a sign of the end. And all the while it had long since come and gone." Alexi Murdoch

  4. #4
    Maybe YesNo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Near Chicago, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,420
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaman_Raman View Post
    So I understand that note on how Jesus wouldn't want his miracles being the central focus to him, but then why would he heal these men, knowing they were going to go talk about it anyway?
    Why would he know they were going to talk about it anyway? Don't they have any free will to do what they want?

  5. #5
    Registered User Shaman_Raman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    240
    Blog Entries
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by YesNo View Post
    Why would he know they were going to talk about it anyway? Don't they have any free will to do what they want?
    Well the point I was making is that if Jesus talked about the prophecy of his death, and Judas betraying him, and him ascending from death, wouldn't he know two guys he healed were going to go tell everyone about him? I don't imagine a prophets future reading radar just goes on and off randomly.

    But you do raise a good point about free will. Because on one hand God has granted us free will, but on the other hand, I believe it's referenced all who are saved are already known to Jesus in the Book of Life. So, which is an illusion: free will, or predestination?
    "We sat around, scratching the earth with our feet, half looking up for a sign of the end. And all the while it had long since come and gone." Alexi Murdoch

  6. #6
    Maybe YesNo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Near Chicago, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,420
    Blog Entries
    2
    There are intuitive people who seem to know some of the future. The books Laura Day has written make me suspect she is one of them, but they don't always get things right. In the case of these divine incarnations, such as Jesus, Rama or Krishna, they act as if they are trying to convince people to do something one way or the other. I agree with you, if they already knew, with perfect deterministic knowledge, what someone would do, why try to convince that person to do one thing or the other? So I assume that even incarnations of divinity have no complete knowledge of the future although they may have intuitive glimpses like Day might have. Some things they can predict, others not. Even their predictions could come out wrong. That doesn't mean they are not divine.

    I don't think it is possible for any God to have perfect deterministic knowledge of what will happen just based on quantum physics. No state of the universe even exists upon which to deterministically predict a different state past or future.

    However, free will is far from absolute and people have a lot of influences molding their actions. I think we have enough free will to be responsible and there is no predestination. Why assume this?

    There are two reasons:

    (1) We experience ourselves as having some limited freedom, and so to claim we do not challenges our experience which is the basis for doing any kind of science.

    (2) A predestined universe is more trivial than one with freedom just as a machine is more trivial than a cat or dog. If God truly is omnipotent, he would not waste his time building a machine. He (or she) would leave that for us to make.

  7. #7
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    13,930
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaman_Raman View Post
    Well the point I was making is that if Jesus talked about the prophecy of his death, and Judas betraying him, and him ascending from death, wouldn't he know two guys he healed were going to go tell everyone about him? I don't imagine a prophets future reading radar just goes on and off randomly.

    But you do raise a good point about free will. Because on one hand God has granted us free will, but on the other hand, I believe it's referenced all who are saved are already known to Jesus in the Book of Life. So, which is an illusion: free will, or predestination?
    There Shaman are loopholes in the bible as there are loopholes in man. One is not to expect perfection when one isn't.
    Last edited by cacian; 03-13-2013 at 01:22 PM.
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  8. #8
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    3,890
    Quote Originally Posted by cacian View Post
    There Shaman loopholes in the bible as there are loopholes in man. One is not to expect perfection when one isn't.
    Men might claim not to be perfect to hide being perfect arceholes. They might feel much more confi that way, by denying the perfection of God in creating them, for the sake of justifyinbg the most stupid choices in what's available.

  9. #9
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    13,930
    Quote Originally Posted by cafolini View Post
    Men might claim not to be perfect to hide being perfect arceholes. They might feel much more confi that way, by denying the perfection of God in creating them, for the sake of justifyinbg the most stupid choices in what's available.
    Good point but one approach this way and asks this:

    with god being perfect does he/she expect his people to be perfect too? Logically I would say no because it is boring to watch the same all over again.
    I would imagine god would want his people to be very different so that he could enjoy watching the differences. No point in looking like the madonna if i am going to buy the madonna painting on top of it too. I might as well use my mirror to reflect me and saves me money.
    It is a bit like walking into a football match where i know every player is going to score a goal. What say you?
    My logic tells me beware of rhyme me.
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  10. #10
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    3,890
    Quote Originally Posted by cacian View Post
    Good point but one approach this way and asks this:

    with god being perfect does he/she expect his people to be perfect too? Logically I would say no because it is boring to watch the same all over again.
    I would imagine god would want his people to be very different so that he could enjoy watching the differences. No point in looking like the madonna if i am going to buy the madonna painting on top of it too. I might as well use my mirror to reflect me and saves me money.
    It is a bit like walking into a football match where i know every player is going to score a goal. What say you?
    My logic tells me beware of rhyme me.
    But that every player would score a goal is not the perfection of it. On the contrary. That's upside down. The perfection is in the ability to make the goal. For that, the players must choose the available maneuvers and accomplish them. The perfection is that some will win over others and that must be accepted and recognized. Most players pray to God their choices will be the best. Then men give them trophies in recognition for their obedience to the best thinking and art.
    You cracked me up with the thing about the frugality regarding the choice of a more complete mirror over the fixed image of the madonna at a much higher price. LOL

  11. #11
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    13,930
    Putting matthew aside for a minute the problem with genesis is this:
    If god was a He and mother nature a SHE then where is ANY going to gestate for nature and men don't mate? Humm....
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  12. #12
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    3,890
    God can't have a gender. It would be ridiculous for men to think so. Who cares that's a mortal? Men chose the HE perfectly stupidly and are still paying for it with con-fusion. May their cons stay away from their fusions.
    Last edited by cafolini; 03-13-2013 at 12:36 PM.

  13. #13
    Registered User Calidore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    5,071
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaman_Raman View Post
    Well the point I was making is that if Jesus talked about the prophecy of his death, and Judas betraying him, and him ascending from death, wouldn't he know two guys he healed were going to go tell everyone about him? I don't imagine a prophets future reading radar just goes on and off randomly.
    Couple of ideas:

    1) Jesus knew the big things (the prophecies and his future), but not necessarily every little thing (whether these two individual people would blab or not).

    2) Even if he knew they would talk, the healing was the important thing.
    Last edited by Calidore; 04-30-2013 at 02:26 PM. Reason: proofreading fail--no change of content
    You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -- Mahatma Gandhi

  14. #14
    Registered User Shaman_Raman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    240
    Blog Entries
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by Calidore View Post
    Couple of ideas:

    1) Jesus knew the big things (the prophecies and his future), but not necessarily every little thing (whether these two individual people would blab of not.

    2) Even if he knew they would talk, the healing was the important thing.
    Indeed, both points can fit, personally I'd say the second holds a lot of merit. Even if Jesus couldn't get them to not talk,he had a duty to aid those desperately seeking him. How cruel would it read...:"and the Lord said, ´blind you will stay, but now with no tongue, for I've seen your deeds and your a bunch of liars.' And then he ripped out their tongues."
    "We sat around, scratching the earth with our feet, half looking up for a sign of the end. And all the while it had long since come and gone." Alexi Murdoch

  15. #15
    Registered User Shaman_Raman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    240
    Blog Entries
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by cacian View Post
    There Shaman loopholes in the bible as there are loopholes in man. One is not to expect perfection when one isn't.
    sure, but if I give up all questions on the premise of all not being perfect, then what a dull narrow world it'd be.
    "We sat around, scratching the earth with our feet, half looking up for a sign of the end. And all the while it had long since come and gone." Alexi Murdoch

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Matthew Arnold's Shakespeare
    By sammyuk in forum Poems, Poets, and Poetry
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-09-2010, 08:18 PM
  2. Matthew Reilly's novels
    By Astron in forum General Literature
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 09-19-2009, 07:04 AM
  3. Faust I Matthew Lewis Translation
    By SenetorNicole in forum Goethe, Johann Wolfgang von
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 02-22-2009, 02:42 PM
  4. Dave Matthew´s poetry...
    By Juarez Fialho in forum Poems, Poets, and Poetry
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-15-2006, 02:14 PM
  5. Matthew Arnold
    By mono in forum Poems, Poets, and Poetry
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 01-04-2006, 06:55 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •