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Thread: The Gospel of St Thomas (Christ's own Gospel?)

  1. #1
    Warning Contains Nuts! Melancholia's Avatar
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    The Gospel of St Thomas (Christ's own Gospel?)

    Those of you who have seen the movie Stigmata will have an idea of what it is i am talking about. The gospel of St Thomas was discovered in Egypt in 1946. This gospel is beleived by the majority of bible scholars to be the words of Jesus Christ himself scribed by Didymos Judas Thomas.

    Three issues i would like people to address when discussing this firstly.

    1) The validity of the scrolls, do you believe this to be Christ's Gospel.
    2) The impact this scroll has upon the structure of the Church, More specifically the following extract " Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."
    3) Whether or not you feel this specific scripture has a place in the teaching of christianity?


    I personally do believe these scrolls are the words of Christ, historcal evidence places the age of these scrolls at just over 2000 years and was written in a Aramaic.

    These Scrolls Would have a very negative impact upon the Christian Churches in our world, otherwise the Vatican would not have gone to such lengths to have then discarded and regarded openly as "heresy"

    Finally I am very undecided as to whether or not they have a place. They are the words of christ however some of the ideas that come though within the scroll are VERY controversial ones most notably...

    114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven

    Most interested in what you have to say....

  2. #2
    Warning Contains Nuts! Melancholia's Avatar
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    Seriously no views anyone?
    "Is that we see or seem but a dream inside a dream?"

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    precious... subterranean's Avatar
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    Hey,

    Maybe you can posted a link to this text, as perhaps there aren't many peeps around here who ever read/heard about it (including me)?


    "there are people in the world so hungry that God can not appear to them except in the form of bread"

    Mahatma Gandhi

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    Warning Contains Nuts! Melancholia's Avatar
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    Sure not a problem....

    Here is one link

    spiritual.com.au/articles/theosophy/gospel_stthomas.htm
    "Is that we see or seem but a dream inside a dream?"

  5. #5

    gnostic gospels

    The gospel of Thomas is one the collective Gnostic Gospels.

    In 1945, group of ancient documents dating from approximately A.D. 350, predominantly Gnostic in character, were discovered near Nag Hammadi, Egypt (Note 1)

    Among these documents were the so-called 'Gnostic Gospels': the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Philip, Gospel of Mary, Gospel of the Egyptians, and the Gospel of Truth.

    Even what is probably the earliest gnostic document, the Gospel of Thomas, seems to have come from a period after the New Testament books were already recognized as authoritative and widely circulated.
    The Gospel of Thomas Portrays a Second-Century Gnosticism. The Gospel of Thomas is influenced by the kind of Gnosticism prevalent in the second century. For instance, it puts into the mouth of Jesus these unlikely and demeaning words: "Every woman who will make herself male will enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

    The simpler sparse phrases found in the gospel of thomas depend on the four original gospels.

    A one-sentence description of Gnosticism: a religion that differentiates the evil god of this world (who is identified with the god of the Old Testament) from a higher more abstract God revealed by Jesus Christ, a religion that regards this world as the creation of a series of evil archons/powers who wish to keep the human soul trapped in an evil physical body, a religion that preaches a hidden wisdom or knowledge only to a select group as necessary for salvation or escape from this world.

    Gnostics were not Christians, their views and "gospels" differ much from the Bible.
    Last edited by greenburke; 12-13-2005 at 11:13 PM.
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  6. #6
    I'm completely bewildered by the statement in the first post to the effect that

    >>>>> This gospel is believed by the majority of bible scholars to be the words of Jesus Christ himself scribed by Didymos Judas Thomas. <<<<<

    My own impression has always been that, to say the least, the "Gospel" of St Thomas is seen as fraught with problems. As far as I'm aware there's no mention of the Resurrection anywhere in it, for example. I honestly don't think it enjoys the kind of status suggested in the first post.

    Edited to add this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas
    Last edited by kaka; 12-21-2005 at 07:38 PM.

  7. #7
    ....................
    Last edited by Diadem; 01-04-2006 at 10:16 PM.
    "The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, pull back the curtains, and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater." -Frank Zappa

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    freaky geeky emily655321's Avatar
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    I had never heard of the Gospel of Thomas as being the words of Jesus, any more than are the other gospels. The Gnostics were a highly fundamentalist sect of early Christians—even in the very beginning, ideas on which way was the "right way" differed widely. What are today commonly known as the Gnostic Gospels are just the latest in a series of discoveries of ancient scrolls not included in the New Testament by the Bishop Jerome of Dalmatia (340-420 C.E.), and are only connected to the Gnostics because they continued to use them in their worship after other Christian sects had discarded them in favor of those with which we are more familiar today. The Gnostics did not write the Gnostic gospels, just to be clear. The four gospels in the New Testament, along with its other books, were just a few of dozens if not hundreds of Christian writings which circulated in the early years of the religion. Other lost manuscripts include those in the Apocrypha, the Christian Apocrypha, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the writings of the Church Fathers. None of the writings predated the death of Jesus—in fact, historical evidence suggests that none of the authors can be said to have known Jesus personally. There is also one historian's insight on the reading of Christian texts from a modern perspective:
    ...Caution is called for in examining first century Christian literature. This caution is made necessary by the fact that during this era, it was not considered wrong to write your own material and ascribe it to someone else, someone you consider your philosophical mentor, in whose name and style you are writing. Indeed, not only was this a common practice, but it was actually a skill taught in the schools of the day. This practice has made modern scholarship enormously difficult in dealing with who actually wrote the New Testament books and when.

    bidstrup.com/bible.htm
    This is taken from an absolutely fascinating essay that I would urge everyone to read without prejudice. It attempts (quite successfully) to piece together the historical facts of the stories in the Bible and of the historical figures and events involved in the formation of the Judeo-Christian religions and canons (orthodox texts).

    Since many of the historical facts do not uphold standard Christian teaching of the history, I sadly expect some Christian readers to disregard it entirely, if not label it secular propaganda. Especially due to the author's unfortunate indulgence in voicing his personal atheistic opinions throughout. But the facts themselves are there, so I'm still posting the link in the hope that you'll give it a read, if only for the sake of intellectual curiosity. Especially history geeks! (I'm raving about it, because it's just so awesome to see all the facts laid out and all the names and dates and movements to which you don't commonly find access. You can dismiss it when you read it if you want, but please read it, because I think it's really cool. Geek rant over.)
    Last edited by emily655321; 12-22-2005 at 08:48 AM.
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  9. #9
    Emily, you say the gnostics were "fundamentalist". In what sense?

  10. #10
    freaky geeky emily655321's Avatar
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    I suppose they couldn't have been "fundamentalist," could they, since there was no Bible in existence to interpret literally (that being the definition of "fundamentalist")? Well, I'm afraid it was a slip of the tongue; what I meant to say was "extremist," and I'm used to hearing the two words used interchangeably. Please pardon my mistake.

    The sense in which I meant "extremist" was that they believed all earthly things to be inherently evil, because they believed Jaweh, the creator god of the earth, to have been evil (and, incidentally, the snake in the Garden of Eden they believed to have been a liberator and symbol for good). They believed Jesus was sent from the "good" God, who was remote from earthly things and did not communicate with mankind. They believed the only way to liberate their souls from the evil of the physical world was to mistreat and torture their own bodies to show that they were against it. Which is, by my standards, pretty extreme.

    Thank you, kaka, for pointing out my error. I didn't mean to cause confusion.
    Last edited by emily655321; 12-22-2005 at 07:00 PM.
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  11. #11
    Thanks for your reply, Emily. I always think of "fundamentalism" as a specific movement that first arose about one hundred years ago - a movement that went far beyond simply 'interpreting the scriptures literally'. There was a wider agenda ... People who interpret scripture literally have been around for some centuries; fundamentalism is much more recent.
    Last edited by kaka; 12-22-2005 at 07:53 PM.

  12. #12
    the gnostic gospels weren't written in the first century.
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    "Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body."

  13. #13
    Actually, many believe that Gnostic Christianity pre-dated Orthodox Christianity.

    And, the comment about "extremist" is rather absurd and biased.
    "The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, pull back the curtains, and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater." -Frank Zappa

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by kaka
    I'm completely bewildered by the statement in the first post to the effect that

    >>>>> This gospel is believed by the majority of bible scholars to be the words of Jesus Christ himself scribed by Didymos Judas Thomas. <<<<<

    My own impression has always been that, to say the least, the "Gospel" of St Thomas is seen as fraught with problems. As far as I'm aware there's no mention of the Resurrection anywhere in it, for example. I honestly don't think it enjoys the kind of status suggested in the first post.

    Edited to add this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas
    That is true. Besides those at the falsely so-called "Jesus Seminar", the only other "scholars" I have seen to say the "Gosp of Th." are the seminar's fans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancholia
    This gospel is beleived by the majority of bible scholars to be the words of Jesus Christ himself scribed by Didymos Judas Thomas.

    I personally do believe these scrolls are the words of Christ, historcal evidence places the age of these scrolls at just over 2000 years and was written in a Aramaic.

    They are the words of christ however some of the ideas that come though within the scroll are VERY controversial ones most notably...
    I often see myself in others. I often see I am confused and I often do not see what is in front of my eyes.

    spiritual.com.au/articles/theosophy/gospel_stthomas.htm

    “The Gospel of St Thomas” If the meaning of this title was to be more accurate it would read, “The Gospel According to St Thomas” My other self hears the ideas which Christ reveals in St Thomas’s words, yet perhaps he ought to consider the interpretation of others that separates the accuracy. Even the links that are provided only lead to others who believe they have their own gospel.

    I love my other self as I love myself become in him I see whom loves us all. Go to him my other self for understanding; not to others who are merely interpreters of their own gospel.

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