Dear Mom, I put a couple of people in Hell today.

[Jay]

But only someone completely ignorant of the power of God would compare the internet to stuff that God's done, say.. the creation of the universe.

Well, but what if God didn't create the universe? How can someone believe that the world is 6000years old?
And Abdo really has a point here, why is it a bad thing coming close to God? Isn't it what all the Christians want all the time? To be close to him? So why should he kinda punish them for wanting it? He's considered Father, but excuse my bluntness, if I had such a father being pissed at me for wanting to be close to him... not that my father's great, he's an *** most of the times.

[Shea]

God does want us to be close to him, but in a humble way. We don't have to do grand and glorious things in order to be closer to God, just obey him. Try studing the Beatitudes at the beginning of Matthew chapter 5.

As for the wives thing, I just wanted to add, (because a lot of men seem to forget this verse),

Ephesians 5:28-29

In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church--

[Jay]

Well, but what if I wanted to be close to God through some glorious things? It might sound terrible to you, but where's any certanity that there IS God? I know Shea how you see things and respect that, but try to see it through my eyes for a while, okay? (not just to Shea, to whomever might disagree with me - okay everybody, I'm listening...)
If I'd like to see God, why is it bad to do some great thing to do so? What if I don't want to wait until I'm dead to see him? What if I'm dead and STILL can't see him? Well, I think when I'm already dead it doesn't mater... So then we kinda hit the after-life topic. And Heaven and Hell topic. If there IS an afterlife, then some guys who could be considered "good" might as well end in Hell because they wanted to be close to their God that much, that he thinks it's a bad thing. What if not everybody likes being submissive? And has mind of his/her own? (okay, not saying you don't, but it's kinda difficult to express myself and not to ofend anyone) So it's that a bad thing as well? I know I might piss off some of you right now (well, not Shea I think ), but don't you have your own mind to do things your way? Sure, there is good things in some things we're supposed to do according to the Bible, but as it was written some well, excuse my lack of knoledge, maybe 3000 years ago, isn't it kinda out of date by now? Just an example - homosexuals. Not going to talk more about the topic as it's not exactly to the topic (sorry if my grammar's confusing, I'm doing this stream-of-consciousness thingy), just trying to make a point... And yes, I'm also aware of the chaos I've made of this post, sorry for that, too. I suppose 10 years of studying English's not enough sometimes... Okay, enough for this time or I'll get everyone pissed at me.

[DumbLikeAPoet]

Jay,
There is no need to build a "tower of Babel" in this dispensation. You can have the Holy Ghost(God) inside of you, can't get much closer than that. Nor can you see God if you build a tower, its not like he is hiding on the dark side of the moon or something. He does not part of the universe, he is much bigger than the universe.

Also getting into heaven is not a simple good guy/bad guy thing it is a Repntance/Obedience thing.

As far as it being out of date, no it is not. Since we are no longer under the law(OT) the punishments represented in it are no longer required. But other than that it is still very relevant.

Jonus

[Jay]

Okay (so not going to call you by your username, as I like poetry and poets are not dumb - not all of them at least , neither are you) Jonus, I know that he's not on the dark side of the Moon , but you see, if God left the guys to built the Babel's tower, they would find nothing and no-one. Wasn't it just a trick to be safe and sure he remains all mysterious? Well, I know now you might say that he's a spirit and therefore can't be seen, but then why don't let them to have their tower? If they find nothing, that could be kinda dangerous to God, right? A lot of questions rising... Some might question the existence of God, some might do other "crazy" things to be closer to God... You see what I'm trying to say?
Sure, I also know that some people need something/someone to believe in, to help them through the life or whatever, but I still can't see why they can't accept that maybe God doesn't exist, that he's just a wish. Damn, even I'd like to have something/someone to believe in (no, sorry Den, as tempting as it is, not going to worship you ), but it/him/her whatever isn't real. As I said it's just a wish. Maybe I'm dumb or on the other side not (in no way hinting that the... how do you call in in English, the guys who believe? are dumb, the ones on this forums are so not), but some people are kinda blind/oblivious... leaving the end open for further issues.

[Shea]

Just to give you a few helpful scriptures. These are all quotes from Jesus. I know they're a lot, but I'm afraid that the only way to answer your questions about God is to quote from his word, no matter what anyone else says. People claim to have "revelations" and to "know" what God wants of them, but they don't know the scriptures. If they did, they would know that what they claim is not possible. Anyway, here they are

Matthew 7:21

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 12:50

For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Matthew 26:39

Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

Matthew 26:42

He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."

Luke 22:42

"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

John 6:40

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 14:21, 23-24

Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." 23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

John 15:10

If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

I may be opening up a can of worms that I don't feel completely prepared for, but I agree with everything you said Jonus, except for the part about the Holy Spirit being inside you. Divinity only dwelt inside flesh when Jesus walked the earth. The purpose of the Holy Spirit is for revelation. That is why the Apostles were able to write as they did. That is also why when Jesus said,
Matthew 12:32

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

People who don't beleive that the Bible is the devine revelation of the Holy Spirit, have harded their hearts and will not believe. It is not saying that the Spirit is that much greater than Christ that blaspheming it is an "unforgivable sin", the context is of the Pharasees not believing that Jesus miracles come from being devine. Therefore they have no hope because they do not believe.

[Jay]

Well Shea, it looks as if I'm doomed, so I might as well go a little further...

First of all, define "divine".

Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.

Okay, anyone here who loves Jesus (if I got the quote right, sorry) and actually saw him? Or are we supposed to be dead (and therefore it doesn't matter) to see him?

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Well, talking about doom... but hey, what if I change my mind? You know, as in something happens and I suddenly believe, so then I'm in a big trouble and don't even need to try, 'cause I'm the bad guy and am hopeless... "to err is human, to forgive is divine" or something like that is it? Okay, then I should be forgiven anything, right? Well, I don't know where the quote comes from, so if it's not in Bible, then ignore my last comment, okay? And yes, I know, someone has already pointed out that there is a Bible with quote searching on this site, might check later...

Hey, if Jonus feels that holy spirit is in him/her (sorry, don't know, I'd guess him) what's wrong with that? So that's a sin as well? Maybe "sin" is kinda strong word, my "bad thing" might be more acceptable.

[DumbLikeAPoet]

Shea,

I may be opening up a can of worms that I don't feel completely prepared for, but I agree with everything you said Jonus, except for the part about the Holy Spirit being inside you. Divinity only dwelt inside flesh when Jesus walked the earth. The purpose of the Holy Spirit is for revelation. That is why the Apostles were able to write as they did. That is also why when Jesus said,

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Revelation is not the only purpose of the Holy Ghost. There are many other purposes for it. I can go into some of them if you wish.

Jay,

Well, talking about doom... but hey, what if I change my mind? You know, as in something happens and I suddenly believe, so then I'm in a big trouble and don't even need to try, 'cause I'm the bad guy and am hopeless... "to err is human, to forgive is divine" or something like that is it? Okay, then I should be forgiven anything, right? Well, I don't know where the quote comes from, so if it's not in Bible, then ignore my last comment, okay? And yes, I know, someone has already pointed out that

A lot of theologians and christians in general beleive the verse in question is speaking about people who come to know God(and his truth) and then turn around and say the Holy Ghost does not exist and such and such.

Jonus

[Jay]

Jonus, I so don't understand what you meant, sorry :oops:, come again? Usually I'm good with long sentences, but you kinda got me lost :oops:. You can use PM, not to bore the guys with the same thing once again. Thanks.

[AbdoRinbo]

Feel free to post whatever you want, Jonus. I'm kind of confused about what you had said . . . I mean, it was just a little vague or awkward, I'm not sure, maybe both.

[fayefaye]

Well, but what if God didn't create the universe? How can someone believe that the world is 6000years old?
And Abdo really has a point here, why is it a bad thing coming close to God? Isn't it what all the Christians want all the time? To be close to him? So why should he kinda punish them for wanting it? He's considered Father, but excuse my bluntness, if I had such a father being pissed at me for wanting to be close to him... not that my father's great, he's an *** most of the times.

Wanting to be close to God is a spiritual thing- not a power trip. What makes you think that believing God created the universe means it's only 6000yrs old (I believe he did create it, though it is definately over 6000yrs old). Besides, if you believe in the existance of God, which from your post I'm assuming you concede to admit, then how can you not believe he created the universe? Who else you got? The other thing is that God does not die, nor was he born, he has just always been. So how does that translate to the age of the universe?

[DumbLikeAPoet]

This is what I sent to Jay in PM hopefully it clears up what I was trying to say. I'm not very eloquent so sometimes my sentences get confusing.

Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

There are many interpretations of this verse one is what Shae gave to me.

People who don't beleive that the Bible is the devine revelation of the Holy Spirit, have harded their hearts and will not believe. It is not saying that the Spirit is that much greater than Christ that blaspheming it is an "unforgivable sin", the context is of the Pharasees not believing that Jesus miracles come from being devine. Therefore they have no hope because they do not believe.

And another one is that Matt 12:32 is speaking of people who at one time beleive what the Bible says(ie God, salvation, Jesus). Then turn their backs on God and try to convince others that the Holy Ghost does not exist and does not work in poeples lives. For example if a Pastor were to turn his congregation against the Holy Ghost.

Hopefully this is more clear

Also regarding the Earth only being 6,000 years old. I beleive God created the earth with age. For example, God did not create Adam as a baby, instead he created him already a grown man.

Jonus

[Jay]

Jonus, quite a good idea...

Also regarding the Earth only being 6,000 years old. I beleive God created the earth with age. For example, God did not create Adam as a baby, instead he created him already a grown man.

But what about dinosaurs? Or other creatures that apperead on the Earth BEFORE men? And I don't mean before as in few days... Surely you don't wanna say God created the stones with the bones etc. already in them...

[AbdoRinbo]

Jonus, is it a sin then to believe in the age that God interlaced into the Earth?

That's something interesting that I had never thought about.

[Chardata]

AbdoRinbo:
You made a very good point! That is something i'll have to think about too! Personally, i think it is possible...but there is some nagging feeling that is telling me that's not quite it. hhhhhmmmmmm.....

Jonus:
I love your posts! I totally agree with you with many of the subjects and ideas. Keep it up!

Everything else:
The Tower of Bable thingie...(does any1 else find that name ironic)...anyway, man (meaning the HUMAN RACE not the gender! I think that is one thing that is confusing many ppl. When the Bible sais man it usually refures to the human race) wanted to be closer to God and be as powerful as God. They took matters into thier own hands instead of relying on His power. God realized this and switched thier languages. He did that so that they would be humbled and realize their mistakes. The last few chapters of the book of James talks about worshiping and drawing close to God in a discreate way and not make a big show over it. The ppl of the Tower of Bable were going about things the wrong way. When a person makes a big show about praying, worshiping etc. they start focusing on themselves instead of God...like what they are supposed to be doing. The ppl of Bable were the same way.

Everything else...well, I think Jonus and Shea have it covered! 8)