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Thread: Dear Mom, I put a couple of people in Hell today.

  1. #46
    if i read your reply correctly, Kinch...umm...that is something that we take by faith. No one is perfect...not even your strongest Christian...and this may be a shocker to alot of catholics...but the Pope is not perfect either!!! ^-^ Christianity is something you have to explore on your own. God gives us signs all around us so we don't have to take everything by faith.
    :Chardata the Fire Mage:

    Out of the darkness I come...
    watch the flames engulf my body,
    watch the flames consume your mind...
    there is no way to break my trance...
    your mind is lost in the flames...
    my flames.
    Oh, my beautiful flames!

  2. #47
    If he was agreeing with what I said, then you are mistaken. I had pointed out earlier that tribal members in the uncharted regions of the world who have never heard of Christ or Christianity are only vaguely accounted for by the Bible (I think there is more evidence that Purgatory exists in the Bible than evidence for indigenous humans finding God without the aid of missionaries or colonialism). Is nature a model of the Bible? If so, why aren't things like black holes, general relativity, or even dinosaurs (et cetera) mentioned in it? Would you say that those things do not exist? Because the sciences that prove their existence are the sames ones that prove yours; if you reject them, you become prey to nihilism.

  3. #48
    dinos are mentioned in the Bible...so is the pangea thingy. SHEA!!! I need Bible refrences!!! PLEASE! ^_* You know we only do this to you b/c your so good at it and we love you lol!
    :Chardata the Fire Mage:

    Out of the darkness I come...
    watch the flames engulf my body,
    watch the flames consume your mind...
    there is no way to break my trance...
    your mind is lost in the flames...
    my flames.
    Oh, my beautiful flames!

  4. #49
    As evidence that dinosaurs are not mentioned in the Bible, my grandma doesn't even believe they ever existed, and she's a Lutheren. Heh, in fact she wouldn't take me to see 'Jurassic Park' when I was a kid . . . and I never forgave her.

  5. #50
    is that a fact...that is sad...I do think dinos existed...but i don't think your grandmother's beliefs are the basis of the Bible. Yeah, she may know alot but i can vouch for this...there are some crazy ppl out there that believe in crazy things. Trash the denomination crap. If you are a Christian...that's that. What your grandmother believes is wrong...but it doesn't mean that the Bible doesn't mention creatures like dinos etc. Even the laviathen is mentioned. Like i said before...ppl have some wacked-up ideas/views.
    :Chardata the Fire Mage:

    Out of the darkness I come...
    watch the flames engulf my body,
    watch the flames consume your mind...
    there is no way to break my trance...
    your mind is lost in the flames...
    my flames.
    Oh, my beautiful flames!

  6. #51
    String Dancer Shea's Avatar
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    Believe it or not, I've been searching for that reference to dinosaurs for a while now. I saw it months ago, it was pre-flood (or speaking of it), and it talked of great beasts roaming the earth. But I can't remember! I'll keep looking. :o

    When Paul was rebuking the gentiles in Romans 1 for disobeying the laws of nature, that had nothing to do with black holes, etc. Frankly, those things have nothing to do with salvation. Nature, though simple, has too much complexity for things just to 'happen'. The gentiles should have known that there was God just because of this complexity. Instead they chose to worship the creatures rather than the creator, and turn away from the laws of nature, for example, by practicing homosexuality (yes it's a sin) which is not evident anywhere else than by human choice.
    Hwt! We Gar-Dena in geardagum,/eodcuninga rum gefrunon,/hu a elingas ellen fremedon!
    Oft Scyld Scefing sceaena reatum,/ monegum mgum, meodosetla ofteah,/ egsode eorlas, syan rest wear/ feasceaft funden; he s frofre gebad,/ weox under wolcnum, weormyndum ah,/ ot him ghwylc ara ymbsittendra/ofer hronrade hyran scolde,/gomban gyldan. t ws god cyning!

  7. #52
    WOW you hit that right on the head!!! ::applause applause::
    :Chardata the Fire Mage:

    Out of the darkness I come...
    watch the flames engulf my body,
    watch the flames consume your mind...
    there is no way to break my trance...
    your mind is lost in the flames...
    my flames.
    Oh, my beautiful flames!

  8. #53
    First of all, when archaeologists discover fossils, they aren't discovering the actual bones or fragments of bones, rather, they are discovering rocks that were once pieces of an animal's skeleton that were saturated with a very rare mixture of silt and water which trickled down into the pores of the bones at a very precise moment and hardened into their shape so that when the bones decomposed, the form remained preserved. That process takes thousands of years. Don't believe me? Listen: no one discovers dinosaurs preserved in ice like they do pre-historic humans or mammoths; of course this is very reasonable when you consider hold old some of these fossils are. Some of them are over 100 million years old. Carbon dating may be arguably flawed, but common sense tells us that a dinosaur fossil cannot harden like that in less than something along the figure of 50,000 years (or more). Besides, the Bible doesn't explain how they all died so suddenly. (You'll say the Great Flood wiped them out, of course, but why is there no record of the Flood in the Orient, where genealogical records show their civilization to be older than that of the West? You're putting your faith in mere wishful thinking if you believe that the Bible is entirely literal.)

    I don't know what homosexuality has to do with Relativity exactly, but on the topic, no one knows for sure if God considers being gay a sin or not. The Bible is too ambiguous on that issue and flat out overlooks a ton of other facts about our Universe making the whole thing seem suspect. Consider this, according to Relativity time might be so slow in some regions of space that Christ might not have even existed there yet. Gravity curves space and slows down time. For example, if you saw me enter a black hole I would appear frozen in space forever at the edge that separates space and time from the mouth of darkness, so who could say for sure if I was truly dead or not? For that matter, who can say for sure that anyone is truly dead? Does seeing it justify it when time is full of curves and bends? Accordingly, who could say for sure that I would appear frozen at the edge of a black hole before falling off the edge of the Universe forever? After all, no one has actually entered a black hole or attempted to. But the same boundaries bind religion too. Who knows what happens when we die? Hoping that there is some paradise waiting for us sure is a nice security blanket to have when the equally plausible prospect of non-existence looms over us in the distance.

  9. #54
    String Dancer Shea's Avatar
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    1 Corinthians 6:9-11
    9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    Romans 1:24-27
    24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
    26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

    These passages don't sound very amibuous to me.

    For most of everthing else that you said, which I'm not very interested in because it's not important, it has nothing to do with salvation, (which I beleive is what we were discussing). I found that most of that is an exuse for people who do not want to obey God.

    But, to humor you, here is an ideaand I think I've posted this before, forgive me.) Suppose you were able to go back in time to see Adam five minutes after he was created. Adam is only five minutes old but his not an infant. Wouldn't it stand to reason, that God could also have created an 'old earth' as well? But like I said, it's not really important. I would rather have my security blanket, than to cast it away and find out too late that the Bible was all true.
    Hwt! We Gar-Dena in geardagum,/eodcuninga rum gefrunon,/hu a elingas ellen fremedon!
    Oft Scyld Scefing sceaena reatum,/ monegum mgum, meodosetla ofteah,/ egsode eorlas, syan rest wear/ feasceaft funden; he s frofre gebad,/ weox under wolcnum, weormyndum ah,/ ot him ghwylc ara ymbsittendra/ofer hronrade hyran scolde,/gomban gyldan. t ws god cyning!

  10. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Shea
    These passages don't sound very amibuous to me.
    You're quoting a translated text. (The argument for Christian homosexuality is that the Hebrew Bible says nothing bad about it, and that the Theologians just inserted it for their own 'agenda'.)

    As for the nature stuff, it really isn't very important--you're right--, but it's 'logical' and it does undermine theology no matter how you look at it (you never really answered any of it, either). I was trying to make it clear that you are hiding under a security blanket (which is something I'm guilty of too), and that quoting the Bible to skeptics to prove you're right is just a big waste of time.

  11. #56
    Oh and by the way, you've said that you renounced Catholicism because of the 'once a Catholic, always a Catholic' mentality, which you disagree with. I've told you earlier that the reason I don't consider myself an agnostic is because I believe in that mentality (a Catholic education is a permanant memory). Honestly though, I don't see how someone could give it up like that so easily, and for such a vague reason. Because, based on what you've said, you abdicated it because you felt that your church and/or family would force you to stay (in the same way that teenage-angst makes rebellion seem appealing because we know our parents don't want us to rebel). I don't want to impose, but if you would like to tell me about it I would be interested.

  12. #57
    can i have a say in this too? I resent that teenage comment ^_^ lol. Ummm...the homosexuality thingy...can you read hebrew? I'm assuming not...so you can't say for sure that, that is what the texts say or don't say. Secondly, this is turning into presumption etc. Shea remember this? I really don't want to get into this again. BUT how can thousands of different translations be that far off...NIV, King James, Catholic, New American, Morman...etc. Most of them all say the same thing it's just the way a person prefers to understand it. The Catholic and Morman bibles have more books than the Prodistent Bibles but that's beside the point. I would have to agree with Shea on this one.

    Catholoism...well, i believe they have more enphasis on tradition and ritual than Jesus and God. I also think they mess with verses until they do not have the meaning that they once held. Now don't chew me out. I believe that there are many Catholics that are spiritually lost and don't understand that Jesus died so that we don't have to preform all the rituals etc and that the Pope does not have the final word. He is no more closer to God than the average Christian. He is human too. There is so much i would like to talk to you about but i'm at school so i don't have time right now. Now, i'm not saying that they other denominations are the 'true' way...which they aren't. Only Jesus is the true way and our society is too focused on how you worship than if you worship at all. It's sad...very sad.
    :Chardata the Fire Mage:

    Out of the darkness I come...
    watch the flames engulf my body,
    watch the flames consume your mind...
    there is no way to break my trance...
    your mind is lost in the flames...
    my flames.
    Oh, my beautiful flames!

  13. #58
    Most of them all say the same thing it's just the way a person prefers to understand it.
    Exactly. Some people prefer to interpret the Bible one way and others in another. That was my point: it's not a Grand Theory.

  14. #59
    you can rationalize but the bible is clear. One can choose to interpitate it one way and twist the words another inorder to have it fit thier pupose. Again, I feel like the Bible is straight forward about this topic.
    :Chardata the Fire Mage:

    Out of the darkness I come...
    watch the flames engulf my body,
    watch the flames consume your mind...
    there is no way to break my trance...
    your mind is lost in the flames...
    my flames.
    Oh, my beautiful flames!

  15. #60
    If you say so.

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