Sons and Lovers

[manolia]

Hmmmm..i agree with Amalia. I don't think that Mrs Morel wanted to die..
As for Paul giving the fatal dose to his mother...i was very troubled reading that part too. I don't think i could ever do such a thing to my mother. I'd sit and wait till the end hoping for a miracle, i guess

Janine, regarding the friendship between the two men..this is the part of the book that i couldn't get . I could understand Baxter's attitude, being a broken man, sick, poor, abandoned by his wife, without a job e.t.c. He could "receive" charity even from his "enemy" Paul (or should i say adversary?). We can give him credit for being reluctant at first, though (he shunned Paul, at first, didn't he?). But i can't account for Paul's behaviour..

[Janine]

I agree with Manolia regarding Clara, safety is something precious these days, and I am in favor of this attitude in certain occassions.

Hi manolia and amalia,
Well, let's face it - what choice did a woman really have back then? With Paul, she had a shaky relationship for certain. He seemed to be floundering all the time, not knowing what he wanted in life, so there was no 'stability' in staying with him. Clara was a 'separated' woman and not even divorced, so who could she hope to get as a partner for life? I think she also felt bound to the husband, by the fact that she was technically still married to him. I think going back to him was her only secure option, so I agree with you two on this idea of security. I don't think she had nearly the passion she had with Paul, but she did have some regard for her husband and realised she could have the 'whole of him' and be secure. Also, it seemed that the husband had gone through some bit of 'tranformation' by the end of the novel. His 'need' for her, at that point, also would have been appealing to a woman in her position.

Regarding Paul's mother, I agree with Janine. I would do the same for my mother, although there are certain moral reservations which I respect. I admit I would think twice, but I would probably end up doing what Paul did. I am not sure whether his mother knew, she was a clever woman, perhaps she realised it, but as Janine said it was a frightful ending. I remember having the desire to skip these pages, I felt so disturbed and sorry for the woman at that point.

Yes, this is such a hard question to answer, isnt' it. I actually knew a woman who died much like this - she too had ignored her cancer and it spread and she took no real modern treatment but morphine. It was such a sad and drawnout affair. I think had any one of her daughters administered the lethal dose of morphine that Paul did to her mother I would have looked on them as saints, because they adored their mother and say her suffer so.
The ending was frightful and hard to keep reading, I agree. It made one feel very uncomfortable. From an artistic sense this part of the book was written brilliantly and it is so like life and shows us a true window into dying in this manor. Sad to say, but I think we see how difficult the whole thing was through these passages - from the decision to her last breath and that it is no simple answer to this age old question from a moral standpoint. I hope that all made sense.

Now, regarding the mother's wish to die? I don't know, honestly, I wouldn't agree. Perhpas the fact that she ignored the tumor was a denial to admit that there was something wrong.

Well, keep wondering about that, too. Some say she felt she lost her sons, even Paul, or the control over him, and so she gave up on her own living. If she did do this and was in denial about her cancer, I think it was 'subconscious' and not a deliberate thing. It is hard to say. This woman I know, who died of cancer, had just lost her husband and I think, like Paul's mother, she gave up on her own life. She had had it and wanted out. A very sad thing, since my feelings are she might have been saved to live many more years, but then who really knows? Perhaps, had Paul's mother told that she had a small tumor before it got out of hand, she may have had surgery and survived, but back then, it all was doubtful; there were no miracle treatments, like today for cancers.

Hmmmm..i agree with Amalia. I don't think that Mrs Morel wanted to die..
As for Paul giving the fatal dose to his mother...i was very troubled reading that part too. I don't think i could ever do such a thing to my mother. I'd sit and wait till the end hoping for a miracle, i guess

I am sure I would be like you, too, M, and just wait till the end....although I would probably wish it could be otherwise. I guess I believe more in natural death and not aided but if a person truly wants to be aided I would not oppose it; however I am sure I could not be the instrument of the carrying out of the request. I just saw a very good film on this. I should talk about it in the film thread. I forget the name of it presently but it was based on a true story and the man had been paralysised for years and wanted out finally. Something about the 'sea' in the title and I think it was a Spanish-speaking film.

Janine, regarding the friendship between the two men..this is the part of the book that i couldn't get . I could understand Baxter's attitude, being a broken man, sick, poor, abandoned by his wife, without a job e.t.c. He could "receive" charity even from his "enemy" Paul (or should i say adversary?). We can give him credit for being reluctant at first, though (he shunned Paul, at first, didn't he?). But i can't account for Paul's behaviour..

I agree - I was a little confused and keep wondering why Paul's behavior was like this. It seemed so unreal to me at first. The one thing I keep coming up with is this - sometimes when people are under extreme dirgess, they do strange and even seemingly illogical things. I also, had the thought in reading these passages, that Paul saw Baxter as a 'broken' man and he felt this certain affinity with him, because inside Paul also was broken and fractured. In the company of the man he felt he had someone to exist with, even if they did not communicate, so well. They say 'like seeks like' or 'misery likes company'; so this is what I have come up with, to satisfy my own pondering on these facts. I thought the strangest scene was when Paul invited Clara along to spend a day with Baxter and he at a cottage, wasn't it... by the sea? How quickly I have forgotten - it seems I moved onto other books and now I can't recall clearly that part of 'S&L' - help! refresh my memory, if you can.

[Virgil]

As for Paul giving the fatal dose to his mother...i was very troubled reading that part too. I don't think i could ever do such a thing to my mother. I'd sit and wait till the end hoping for a miracle, i guess

I'm with you Manolia. I could never do such a thing. Perhaps they didn't have the pain killers then that they have now, so Paul may not have had a choice. And that part of the book troubled me too. I thought it was somewhat unprepared as an climax.

[manolia]

I guess I believe more in natural death and not aided but if a person truly wants to be aided I would not oppose it; however I am sure I could not be the instrument of the carrying out of the request. I just saw a very good film on this. I should talk about it in the film thread. I forget the name of it presently but it was based on a true story and the man had been paralysised for years and wanted out finally. Something about the 'sea' in the title and I think it was a Spanish-speaking film.

I couldn't oppose it either but i certainly wouldn't do it myself (like you say). This is a tough one though (whether euthanasia must be legal or not..).
I know the film. It is spanish ("The sea inside" must be the english title). I haven't seen it, but i will. I like Havier Bardem. Great actor.

The one thing I keep coming up with is this - sometimes when people are under extreme dirgess, they do strange and even seemingly illogical things. I also, had the thought in reading these passages, that Paul saw Baxter as a 'broken' man and he felt this certain affinity with him, because inside Paul also was broken and fractured. In the company of the man he felt he had someone to exist with, even if they did not communicate, so well. They say 'like seeks like' or 'misery likes company'; so this is what I have come up with, to satisfy my own pondering on these facts. I thought the strangest scene was when Paul invited Clara along to spend a day with Baxter and he at a cottage, wasn't it... by the sea? How quickly I have forgotten - it seems I moved onto other books and now I can't recall clearly that part of 'S&L' - help! refresh my memory, if you can.

Hmmmm..that definately makes sense. This might be the answer

I'm with you Manolia. I could never do such a thing. Perhaps they didn't have the pain killers then that they have now, so Paul may not have had a choice. And that part of the book troubled me too. I thought it was somewhat unprepared as an ending.

Yes, i thought that too...and he loved her too much and couldn't bare to watch her suffer. That's why i find an excuse with his behaviour and didn't dislike him as a character. What an ending, eh?

[grace86]

Yay!!!! I bought S&L...can't read it now...but at least now I will be able to catch up at some time!!

But uhhh flipping through the pages of this thread might take forever....you guys really have had a good go at it!

[Janine]

Yay!!!! I bought S&L...can't read it now...but at least now I will be able to catch up at some time!!

But uhhh flipping through the pages of this thread might take forever....you guys really have had a good go at it!

Hi grace, glad to see you here. We all missed you so.
Yes, do read the book, when you find the time. I think you will discover it quite interesting. We certainly did get ambitious posting, didn't we? I had not realised just how many pages there were....and they are still growing. Thing is way back this same thread was started before the others read the book; at that time I think it was basically just Pensive and myself and maybe Virgil, then I re-read the book with everyone else and this thread again took off. No doubt it will never truly end so when you are ready to discuss the book I will probably do so and the others as well. There is so much here to condemplate and discuss - a very complex book indeed!

I'm with you Manolia. I could never do such a thing. Perhaps they didn't have the pain killers then that they have now, so Paul may not have had a choice. And that part of the book troubled me too. I thought it was somewhat unprepared as an climax.

Virgil, how did you feel it was unprepared or Lawrence presented it unprepared at the end or climax? I am curious for you to expound on this thought. First time I read the novel, it certainly did have a shocking aspect.

I couldn't oppose it either but i certainly wouldn't do it myself (like you say). This is a tough one though (whether euthanasia must be legal or not..).
I know the film. It is spanish ("The sea inside" must be the english title). I haven't seen it, but i will. I like Havier Bardem. Great actor.

manolia, that is the film! It was quite good, although slow-going at times. I like Havier Bardem, also. Did you ever see him in the film "The Dancer Upstairs"? I thought it was interesting. I thought his name was Javier, not Havier....maybe different in translation to Greek. Anyway, I think my friend, Amalia also likes him - she mentioned his name recently. He is a fine actor. It is interesting to watch the special features on the DVD of "The Sea Inside", since it shows much footage of the real man and what he had to say.

Hmmmm..that definately makes sense. This might be the answer

Glad you consider it to make sense. Also, I was thinking to add this - they, both men, had Clara (physically) yet they, neither of them, truly had her. Neither had had her mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually; all at the same time. They both lacked this. They both were needy and confused as well. Does that make sense?

Yes, i thought that too...and he loved her too much and couldn't bare to watch her suffer. That's why i find an excuse with his behaviour and didn't dislike him as a character. What an ending, eh?

Yep - what an ending! ...and like no other book I have ever read....really thought-provoking, wasn't it?

[grace86]

Hi grace, glad to see you here. We all missed you so.
Yes, do read the book, when you find the time. I think you will discover it quite interesting. We certainly did get ambitious posting, didn't we? I had not realised just how many pages there were....and they are still growing. Thing is way back this same thread was started before the others read the book; at that time I think it was basically just Pensive and myself and maybe Virgil, then I re-read the book with everyone else and this thread again took off. No doubt it will never truly end so when you are ready to discuss the book I will probably do so and the others as well. There is so much here to condemplate and discuss - a very complex book indeed!

I shall definitely try reading it when things die down here in a couple of weeks, you convinced me last night when we were talking about the intricacies of relationships both for the novel and otherwise! I am looking forward to it very much.

I'll see if I can push Quixote through the last pages and get started on that so I have the whole break to read S&L.

[Janine]

I shall definitely try reading it when things die down here in a couple of weeks, you convinced me last night when we were talking about the intricacies of relationships both for the novel and otherwise! I am looking forward to it very much.

I'll see if I can push Quixote through the last pages and get started on that so I have the whole break to read S&L.

Hi Grace, great!... But don't rush yourself....make it a 'no stress' reading. You have school to think about, too...ugh right? No, seriously, your classes do sound interesting to me, actually....not as interesting as our Lit Net discussions, but interesting. Can I go to school, too? .

I don't say that Lawrence is the 'model', by far, for 'good' or 'ideal' relationships, but he shows what goes on behind the veneer of a person and deep within them. He seems to see into the very core of human beings and their relationships - which are so intricate, complex and sometimes like a fine web of confusion. Conversations between characters are filled with so much to condemplate and often one sees just how we all tend to react to things, both rationally and irrationally. I think you will be able to relate quite well to certain aspects of this book, because when we are growing up/older, going through a sort of indedpence from our families and parents; striking out on our own - it is a very confusing time. We all know that, only too well.

I hope this helps and you understand what I have written here. Glad our little talk also helped. Stay in-touch...I am always here....trying to do real life work...but not far from my trusty little computer. Today laundry is calling to me this moment.

[protagonist]

can all of us explain the themes in sons and lovers?
For example
Oedipus complex...
It is a kind of relation which the son addict to his mother a lot.

[Janine]

can all of us explain the themes in sons and lovers?
For example
Oedipus complex...
It is a kind of relation which the son addict to his mother a lot.

Hi protagonist, you can if you want to, but for now this thread is no longer very active; for one thing most of us have gone onto other books and some of us are just too busy now with the holidays. I know that Grace plans to read the book soon and I told her I could then disguss some things with her in this thread. I always say that these threads never truly close, which is a good thought I think. Hope this does not discourage you from posting; please do and I will be sure to read it and comment if I have the time to.
The 'Oedipus complex' you mention has been disgussed on this thread in several posts, awhile back, but should you want to add to it - your own thoughts and ideas it would certainly be interesting to read them. I would however, review what had already been discussed about that consideration in the story. Lawrence was well aware of Freud and his theories on this idea, but he did not agree completely with F's philosophies. I think that Virgil posted thoughts on this and Lawrence changing attitudes, and others, including myself added our thoughts or references, too.
I highly recommend you read this thread, if you can find the time; there is a lot of good L information here and on the story of S&L. By the way, how do you like the book? I read it twice and liked it very much both times, even more so the second time around.

[protagonist]

Hi protagonist, you can if you want to, but for now this thread is no longer very active; for one thing most of us have gone onto other books and some of us are just too busy now with the holidays. I know that Grace plans to read the book soon and I told her I could then disguss some things with her in this thread. I always say that these threads never truly close, which is a good thought I think. Hope this does not discourage you from posting; please do and I will be sure to read it and comment if I have the time to.
The 'Oedipus complex' you mention has been disgussed on this thread in several posts, awhile back, but should you want to add to it - your own thoughts and ideas it would certainly be interesting to read them. I would however, review what had already been discussed about that consideration in the story. Lawrence was well aware of Freud and his theories on this idea, but he did not agree completely with F's philosophies. I think that Virgil posted thoughts on this and Lawrence changing attitudes, and others, including myself added our thoughts or references, too.
I highly recommend you read this thread, if you can find the time; there is a lot of good L information here and on the story of S&L. By the way, how do you like the book? I read it twice and liked it very much both times, even more so the second time around.

Thanks a lot Janine.I read the book both the translated versin and english version.It is very different and tells about the people who are under the influence of natural and industrial world.

[Janine]

You're welcome, Protagonist. Sorry it took me so long to answer your post above. I saw it awhile back but just could not find the time.
Wow, so you read two Lawrence versions - interesting. Yes, the novel very much does contrast the natural world with the industrial world - the advent of the machine and it's effect and changes it had on our way of living and environment. This is a 'timeless' theme, don't you think? Lawrence saw it all coming; he was quite prophetic in his novels. Now we all know the ecological problems in the world, we can see that he made a lot of sense, so far back in the beginning of the last century. Yes, Lawrence's writing is quite 'different'. I really love the way he describes people and places; one feels like one has been there first-hand.
If you are inclined to short stories - we are currently reading one a month in the Lawrence Short Story thread. It is a good discussion group we have going. You are welcome to join in. 'The more the merrier', as they say! We have not picked the next story yet, but will soon for February.

[ci_ci]

Hi everyone,I am a Chinese student who take the book Sons and Lovers as my graduating paper.My concern is the reason of the tragic love between Paul and Miriam.In my opinion, it is the defective pesonality of the two protagonists that leads the tragedy,not is the so-called Oedipus complex which does play as the stimulus to the tragedy. It is appreciated that anyone gives his advices and opinions to my topic
Can I join in your dicussion?
P.S.:There is a limitation of my English level,but I will try my best to improve it to express myself and communicate with everyone

[Virgil]

Hi everyone,I am a Chinese student who take the book Sons and Lovers as my graduating paper.My concern is the reason of the tragic love between Paul and Miriam.In my opinion, it is the defective pesonality of the two protagonists that leads the tragedy,not is the so-called Oedipus complex which does play as the stimulus to the tragedy. It is appreciated that anyone gives his advices and opinions to my topic
Can I join in your dicussion?
P.S.:There is a limitation of my English level,but I will try my best to improve it to express myself and communicate with everyone

Welcome Ci Ci. Yes, I think that might be a good approach to understanding the Paul/Miriam relationship. Let us know what you write in your paper.

[Janine]

Hi everyone,I am a Chinese student who take the book Sons and Lovers as my graduating paper.My concern is the reason of the tragic love between Paul and Miriam.In my opinion, it is the defective pesonality of the two protagonists that leads the tragedy,not is the so-called Oedipus complex which does play as the stimulus to the tragedy. It is appreciated that anyone gives his advices and opinions to my topic
Can I join in your dicussion?
P.S.:There is a limitation of my English level,but I will try my best to improve it to express myself and communicate with everyone

ci_ci, I am sorry to tell you that the discussion for "Sons and Lovers" is not active currently, although these threads never truly end; so feel free to post and ask questions. I hope I can be of some help to you. I love this book and I know it well - I have read it twice and discussed it often, so we might discuss it, also. I am an avid reader of Lawrence and biographies about the author.
Your particular question is a complicated one, that has puzzled readers and scholars alike ever since the book was published. There are so many answers to this question and so many reasons that Paul and Miriam could not last as a couple. I think for one it was the time in which they lived and the social attitudes of each. Paul longed for freedom and sexual freedom, but Miriam was still harnessed to the old ways and therefore Paul and Miriam could not be as Paul envisioned. Although they were very close friends and tried to become lovers it truly did not work for either of them. Very much Paul wanted to come together physically and mentally with Miriam, but in a different way of being and thinking. This could not be achieved by Miriam, nor by Paul with Miriam. Instead, Paul saw Miriam as a 'sacrifice' for him in her physical loving of him. Also, Mrs Morel was a great factor. She kept Paul from Miriam by exerting her 'will' over Paul and using their unusual 'closeness' to keep Paul from Miriam. Miriam knew this and she Knew she was no match for Paul's mother. There was a continual tug of war between them - of their wills. Paul's mother felt Miriam wanted Paul body and soul and therefore would rob Mrs. Moral of her son, whom she now saw almost as a lover after the death of Paul's older brother. If you read a Lawrence biography or a short rendition, you will see that this story is very autobiographical and Jesse (Miriam) indeed was hurt deeply by Lawrence when he broke-up with her. Miriam did actually think Paul would come back to her eventually, but it was impossible for Paul emotionally at that point in his life. I really think Paul loved Jessie deeply, but it was not destined to happen or last as a love partnership or marriage. If you read Lawrence's short story 'The Shades of Spring', you may get some insight into Lawrence and how he felt about Jesse, in looking back to the past. I feel the story relates, but in an round-about way. I am not saying these characters are the actual people, but the two main characters seem to be reminescent of Lawrence and Jesse, at least to me they do. The new lover in the woman's life at the end of this story is fictional. In "Son's and Lovers", most of the characters are based on real life and actual people in Lawrence's young life. The character of Clara, is a combination of several woman and basically 'fictional'.
I hope this helped some in understanding the relationship, but much has been written in this thread about this complicated situation with Paul, Miriam, his mother and even the element of Clara. I would hope you could review some of this to get more information.