Psycho Killer, The Russian Edition

[hellsapoppin]

Sancho,


Why did Dostoyevsky blank out the street names

I understand there were several reasons ~ first this was done to hide anonymity of real life people who may have inspired the creation of certain particular characters. Second, so that street names that did not exist could not be made up and so that no one could say "couldn't happen there as that street doesn't exist".

Let us say that a certain Smithsky existed. That a character names Jonessky was created and his actions based on those of Smithsky. Had the writer included the actual street name and had there been a socialist guild or lyceum on that block, and that Jonessky frequented that establishment, the censors could have accused the real life Smithsky of treason.

Because of this the writer gave realism to the story while retaining anonymity.

At the same time, if the establishment provided humane services in defiance of the Tsar and his puppet administrators, the censors would have come down on him severely. By not providing the street name, Dostoyevsky protected himself.

There may have been other reasons.



Re Cervantes, I recall a segment in which Sancho Panza took special pride in being Cristiano viejo y rancio. This mean that he was of pure Castilian blood which had not been "tainted" by having Jewish ancestry.

Sefardic Jews are very different from Ashkenazim Jews. They do not generally speak Yiddish which has a German base. They speak Ladino which has a Spanish base. It is undoubtedly the easiest language in Europe to understand and to learn. Other Sefardic Jews used a different language called Haketia.

I can see where someone may suggest that Don Quixote may have represented some form of Jewish ideals though of Sefardic, not Ashkenazim origin. He went on a quest to do daily good (called mitzvah), he sought to promote justice, to serve mankind, to reward good (he promised an island to Sancho Panza for his services), he forswore materialist reward for his own good deeds, and he sought to defeat the wickedness of the world.

When I think about it, Don Q is the antithesis of the mythic wandering Jew - a legendary figure who was forced to wander the earth just like Cain for supposedly mocking Jesus at the crucifixion. This person was punished in that he had to continually travel endlessly until the Messiah returned. He would survive in poverty having no particular trade or home and always be dressed in threadbare drags. Unlike Don Q he does not do good deeds and in some incarnations seeks redemption for his past misdeeds.

[bounty]

whenever I watch shows or movies on the computer poppin, even in English, I like having the subtitles on. as far as books, im very thankful my eyesight still allows me to read okay.

having grown up in western ny, and being a sports fan, outside of the music on looney tunes, the (buffalo) sabre dance was probably the first classical music I was exposed to.

im ~halfway through the 2nd chapter and marmeladov is still droning. im impressed with Raskolnikov's patience but I have to say, if Dostoevsky is so keen on human nature, how come when marmeladov mentions his teenage daughter, Raskolnikov doesn't say "um, excuse me, do you have a photo I can see?" I mean, what the heck?

on the 2nd page of the first chapter, when the authors talking about the "special Petersburg stench" he mentions the "insufferable stench from the pot-houses which are particularly numerous in that part of the town..."

I don't know if he's talking about taverns, drugs, or some version of public toilets.

im somewhat instantly reminded of a lot of dickens---life is difficult and bleak.

[hellsapoppin]

whenever I watch shows or movies on the computer poppin, even in English, I like having the subtitles on. as far as books, im very thankful my eyesight still allows me to read okay.

having grown up in western ny, and being a sports fan, outside of the music on looney tunes, the (buffalo) sabre dance was probably the first classical music I was exposed to.

im ~halfway through the 2nd chapter and marmeladov is still droning. im impressed with Raskolnikov's patience but I have to say, if Dostoevsky is so keen on human nature, how come when marmeladov mentions his teenage daughter, Raskolnikov doesn't say "um, excuse me, do you have a photo I can see?" I mean, what the heck?

on the 2nd page of the first chapter, when the authors talking about the "special Petersburg stench" he mentions the "insufferable stench from the pot-houses which are particularly numerous in that part of the town..."

I don't know if he's talking about taverns, drugs, or some version of public toilets.

im somewhat instantly reminded of a lot of dickens---life is difficult and bleak.

~ subtitles ~

Good idea. It's precisely what I do whether for stories or movies.



~ Western, NY ~


Beautiful part of the country. I bet you played lots of lacrosse in your youth. I played lots of baseball when growing up in Brooklyn but we did not have lax in our part of the world. Never got a chance to play, sad to say. Been a Cuse fan for many moons.

re Sabre ~ I well remember the French Connection Line and hard nose Rick Dudley. All gave it 100% every time they got on the ice sheet.


~ marmeladov ~

Interesting character. IIRC his role was to posit the idea of redemption through confession and repentance. This ultimately would become Raskolnikov's only alternative in return for the evil he committed. As to why he didn't inquire into the daughter's appearance, I believe it was because he was so self absorbed initially. He had a bold task in mind (a truly evil one), was ashamed by his poverty and social status, was so strenuously upset at what he perceived to be the world's injustices against him and others, and was single mindedly preoccupied with his errant thoughts.


~ stench ~

I do believe this was a reference to the "pot houses" (taverns or more correctly, the dives) in town and to the inevitable stench that surrounds these polluted establishments. Sorta like the bars in Philadelphia on January 1 when the Mummers have their parade and get so drunk that the bathrooms get clogged and they wind up p!ssing in the back alley of those buildings. Imagine the smell - check that: don't imagine it!


Mummer's use side of building to relieve their bladders: https://phillydeclaration.files.word...1/dsc_2575.jpg

Yeech!


~ Dickens ~

Exactly the same idea I had. The milieu is so much like that of Dickens though it was probably worse. Brits, like the Irish, who were poor could pack up their belongings and re-settle in the USA, Canada, or Australia. Poor folks in Russia did not quite have the same option. Because of that the many problems continued to exist until it all boiled over. While Dostoyevsky's premise was that the Russian Orthodox church and its doctrines offered solutions to the problems encountered in these tales, history shows that the religion, the church, the god, and the doctrines all represented a god who failed.

[Sancho]

I think he does have a keen insight to human nature, bounty. And based on his experience in that Siberian prison, he must’ve seen a side of human nature most of us will only read about (thank god). You know, I keep being pleasantly surprised whenever I try to read one of the great classics of literature. I go into it with a mild sense of trepidation, thinking the ideas will be too high falutin to be any fun to read, but then I get into it and find, on one level anyway, the book is highly readable and very down-to-earth. This one is no exception.

Anyhow, Raskolnikov may not have asked for the daughter’s photo, but I’ll bet he was thinking it. — “Hey, Marm’, got any naked pictures of your wife?”… “No?” … “Wanna see some?” Yuk yuk.

I could almost smell the stink when I got to the part you mentioned, bounty. I think St Petersburg was built on a swamp, so there’d be naturally occurring methane clouds that’re much more potent in warm weather than in cold. (I lived in Louisiana a while back — I myself know about me some swamp gas) I’m not sure what a pot house is, but I sort of assumed it was a communal outhouse. And I’m sure St Petersburg at the time had a state-of-the-art sewer system, ie open ditches that dumped into the ocean. Phew!

I remember several places in Don Quixote where Sancho declares himself an “Old Christian.” His self image is tied up into his identity as a “pure Roman Catholic”. Of course Sancho is not a terribly deep thinker, so he seems to use his religious identity as a way to look down on others. Sadly, not much has changed. — my church is the only right and true church and yours is not, so I’m going to the good place when I die, and too bad for you, ‘cos you’re gonna fry.

I found this passage in part two: The Don and Sanch’ are sitting around the campfire philosophizing. The Don, of course, has his feelings about the righteousness of knight errantry and he equates it to religious faith. He also talks about the evils of vice. Sancho falls back onto his Roman Catholic faith:

Don Quixote:

All vices, Sancho, bring with them some kind of delight, but envy brings nothing but vexation, rancor, and rage.

Sancho:

I have some guile in me, and a touch of cunning, but all of it is covered and concealed by the great cloak of my simplicity, which is always natural and never sly. And even if I had nothing else, there is my belief, and I’ve always believed, firmly and truly, in God and in everything that is thought and believed by the Holy Roman Catholic Church, and there is my being, as I am, a mortal enemy of the Jews, and so the historians ought to take pity on me and treat me well in their writings. But let them say whatever they want; naked I was born, I’m naked now: I haven’t lost or gained a thing; as long as I’ve been put in books and passed from hand to hand out in the world, I don’t care what they say about me.

Given the speculation that Cervantes may have been a converso, this section takes on a whole new weight.

[hellsapoppin]

I doubt that Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra was of converso origin because his family would have been persecuted by the Inquisition if it had been "tainted" with Jewish blood within the 500 years before he was born (in 1547). The family would certainly have been exiled if it had been discovered that they were so, just like my family was. The church under the Dominican order was very thorough in ferreting out Judios. Both Cervantes & Saavedra surnames were of Galician origin. Galicia (in the northern part of Spain) was a part of the Asturian-Leonese kingdom for centuries and remained a Christian stronghold even when it was briefly conquered by the Andalucian Moriscos.

Don Quijote's actual name was Alonso Quijano - the name Quijano was also of Galician (and surely of Christian) origin.

We know for a certainty that Sancho Panza was Cristiano viejo y rancio, that is of "pure" Christian Hispanic blood. Quijano does not make such a declaration. In view of all this speculation and history, I wonder why.

[bounty]

often when I tell people where im from, especially international people, I make sure to say "new York state" (or some other qualifier) as opposed to just "new York" because so many people just think of the city.

there are bunches of memes that address that. ive attached one.

I remember the "French connection" well poppin, even though I didn't pay as much attention to hockey compared to the other major sports.

for the most part when I was a kid lacrosse was confined to schools that were on reservation land so we never played it. however the sport has grown in the years since to be pretty ubiquitous across the state.

I finished chapter three last night.

im finding it relatively easy to read too.

I was mostly teasing about Sonia, but had I been Dostoevsky's editor/publisher, I might have said, "hey, put this in!"

but that's an interesting point poppin---Raskolnikov being self-absorbed by his impending act.

one of the things that makes reading enjoyable is caring about the characters---im trying to figure out how knowing ahead of time that Raskolnikov is going to commit murder affects my reading and my view of him. I already don't like him because he's a dead beat tenant.

I noted his mother mentions in her letter "I have noticed more than once in my life that husbands don't quite get on with their mothers-in-law..." its interesting to see that phenomena cross culture and time. I wonder when/where the first mention of it in literature is.

oh, and I loved the phrase nastaya said to raskol early in chapter three when they were talking about his "work" and he was giving excuses---"don't quarrel with your bread and butter."

im also wondering how many copecks in a ruble.

and there has been some word mentioned twice that I didn't recognize---i'll have to go back through slowly later to see if I can find it. pauma pouma pauta something like that...

[hellsapoppin]

~ how many copecks in a ruble ~


100 cps = 1 RR

[hellsapoppin]

~ for the most part when I was a kid lacrosse was confined to schools that were on reservation land so we never played it. however the sport has grown in the years since to be pretty ubiquitous across the state ~


Wish I could say that was true for NYC. No varsity lax or hockey. So many athletic kids and the financing means to have it but nobody pursues it. Very sad waste of opportunity.

[Sancho]

I told myself when I started this book that I’d stick firmly to the Russian pronunciation of the names, and I almost immediately reneged. It’s probably a common thing for an English speaker. Raskolnikov has become Rascal (not such a thing, eh Poppin?). Marmeladov has become Marmaduke.

I suppose Raskolnikov is a bit of a rascal. He’s got nothing but loathing for Alyona Ivanovna, the pawn broker. But he seems to have a huge amount of sympathy for Marmeladov, even to the point of leaving a few coppers on the his sill. The one is an old lady making her way as best she can. The other is a hopeless drunk whose family is living in crushing poverty. Maybe the emotion is not so much sympathy, but rather empathy. Alyona totally destroyed Raskolnikov in the negotiation over his father’s watch and he can only see that transaction from his own perspective, not her’s. By contrast he can empathize somewhat with Marmeladov’s situation.

Marmaduke is probably a less apt nickname. He’s not so much a lovable Great Dane, but he is likable on a personal level. He’s self aware. He just can’t seem to break the cycle of addiction. And his wife did drag him by his hair across the room as though he were a dog.

[Sancho]

If I had to pick two personality traits that we westerners associate with prostitutes, I’d say we tend to think they are lazy and stupid. Similarly we tend to think drunks are weak and lazy. And yet in Chapter Two Dostoevsky introduces us to a pure soul, Sonya, a prostitute. She is Sonechka to her father, Marmeladov, and even though he is a drunk, he is a sympathetic character. Sonya’s step mother, Katerina Ivanovna, sort of pushed her into prostitution, and yet even she also is a sympathetic character.

Katerina to Sonya:

'You live with us,' she says, 'you good-for-nothing, you eat and drink and use up warmth'

Sonya:

'What, Katerina Ivanovna, must I really go and do such a thing?'

Katerina:

'And what,' Katerina Ivanovna answered mockingly, 'what's there to save? Some treasure!'

Marmeladov watches what happens later that night:

I see Sonechka get up, put on her kerchief, put on her wrap, and go out, and she came back home after eight. She came in, went straight to Katerina Ivanovna, and silently laid thirty roubles on the table in front of her. Not a word with it, not even a glance; she just took our big green flannel shawl (we have this one flannel shawl for all of us), covered her head and face with it completely, and lay down on her bed, face to the wall; only her little shoulders and her whole body kept trembling...

And:

I saw Katerina Ivanovna go over to Sonechka's bed, also without saying a word, and for the whole evening she stayed kneeling at her feet, kissing her feet, and would not get up, and then they both fell asleep together, embracing

This was the point where I knew Dostoevsky had me. He’s a master of his craft.

I even had sympathy for Alyona Ivanovna, the mean old pawn broker. If there’s a truly despicable character in Ch-2, I’d say it’s Ivan Ivanovich, a relatively high-level bureaucrat. Sonya had made him a half dozen shirts but he refused to pay, telling her she’d made the collars wrong. He even chased her away, cursing her. What a Scum-Bag! I really wanted to go all Tony Soprano up on him!

[bounty]

i cant speak to the city poppin, but I know lacrosse is pretty big on the island. if I had to guess, id say city schools in general lack the space/facilities for it.

I usually go in knowing there'll be some names i'll say, some i'll shorten, and some just almost completely gloss over. I toyed with marmeladov as greg marmalade from animal house but the imagery wasn't working, thankfully his names pretty easy.

I think the dramatic tension between Sonia and her stepmother and their desperate straights is an interesting one. but do we think Katerina would be putting her out there "on the streets" so to speak if Sonia were her own biological daughter?

I also wonder if Katerina expecting this of Sonia, seemingly as coldly as she has, is attributable in part to the failures of her father to provide for the family, almost as a form of punishment.

chapter 4 endears raskol a little bit, endears him so more (he plays a white knight really well), but then leaves him all the more wretched in my mind (abandoning his white knight), then chapter 5 kinda decides his fate as he takes one step closer to his murderous aims (that Dostoevsky makes more conclusive through a disturbing, and distressing to read, dream raskol had) and then a chance meeting that sorta seals the deal.

having known for years that the book involved a murder, I always assumed the victim was a man---that its going to be a woman seems to make it and raskol, all the more despicable.

[Sancho]

Yeech! I got some catching up to do. Been on the road working this week.

[bounty]

have you been leaving any of your excess books around for bookcrossing?

[bounty]

I have a couple pages left in chapter 6. something in the chapter was strongly suggestive of further securing raskol on his murderous path, but it also got me wondering if we'll ever hear his justifications.

by the way, it'll be fun sometime to pick a key sentence and compare how the two different translations we have render it.

ive included a scanned shot of my cover. I take the character to be Raskolnikov (with a dark heart) but he looks thicker and older and maybe more menacing than I would otherwise imagine him.

[Sancho]

Good idea. Surfing around the web I find that people either love or hate the Pevear and Volokhonsky translation. Their translation reads fairly naturally to my ear. Here’s the openings if the first 4 chapters:

Chapter 1

At the beginning of July, during an extremely hot spell, towards evening, a young man left the closet he rented from tenants in S------y Lane, walked out to the street, and slowly, as if indecisively, headed for the K------n Bridge.

Chapter 2

Raskolnikov was not used to crowds and, as has already been mentioned, fled all company, especially of late. But now something suddenly drew him to people. Something new was happening in him, as it were, and with that a certain thirst for people made itself felt. After a whole month of this concentrated anguish, this gloomy excitement of his, he was so tired out that he wished, if only for a moment, to draw a breath in another world, whatever it might be, and, despite all the filthiness of the situation, it was with pleasure that he now went on sitting in the tavern.

Chapter 3

He woke up late the next day, after a troubled sleep, but sleep had not fortified him. He woke up bilious, irritable, and angry, and looked with hatred at his little room. It was a tiny closet, about six paces long, of a most pathetic appearance, with yellow, dusty wallpaper coming off the walls everywhere, and with such a low ceiling that a man of any height at all felt creepy in it and kept thinking he might bump his head every moment.

Chapter 4

His mother's letter had tormented him. But concerning the main, capital point he had not a moment's doubt, not even while he was reading the letter. The main essence of the matter was decided in his mind and decided finally: “This marriage will not take place as long as I live, and to the devil with Mr. Luzhin!

No hits yet from Book Crossing. And I’ve flung them far and wide. Somebody may have gotten a good read outta one or two, but nobody’s registered any of them on the web site yet.