Psycho Killer, The Russian Edition

[hellsapoppin]

Among the many issues that appear in 19th classical Russian literature was the "Jewish question". What was their role in society? Should equal citizenship and status be accorded to them as to all others? Do they exert an undue influence in academia, in media, in worker-management dealings? Are Jewish soldiers truly loyal to the State - have they done their fare share in battle and in duty to the government? Do they undermine the Church and its "positive" influences? Do they pay their taxes? Do Jewish artisans create works that promote immorality? Why are they over represented in guilds and unions? Why do they have so many members in subversive groups such as anarchists, communists, rebellious organizations, and socialists? With all these issues under consideration are they or can they truly be said to be Russians? If by some chance it could be proven that they were loyal and contributive people to the State, should they be emancipated from the ghetto? Should laws that forbade marriage between Jews and non Jews be abolished? Should Jews be viewed as our 'equals'?

The issue of the "Jewish question" appeared in every country throughout Europe in that era. This especially so in Germany but was frequently addressed in classical 19th century Russian literature.

Dostoyevsky did not pay much attention to the issue directly in his books. While he clearly disdained nihilism (a movement which featured many prominent Jewish scholars), few of his characters were Jewish. He did not refer to them with the derogatory term "zhid" or write long passages in his stories which alleged that Jews were out to undermine the state. Dostoyevsky's strong nationalist tendency suggest that any alien ideal or religion represented a threat to the State. His writings clearly affirmed the Orthodox church which he viewed as a bulwark against Judaism, Catholicism, and socialist ideologies. During his lifetime he vigorously denied being an anti Semite. However, the consensus among historical scholars was that he was so:


https://community.middlebury.edu/~be...i-semite.shtml


Thus, although Crime and Punishment cannot be said to an anti Semitic, its themes of injustice, alienation, social identity, the quest for truth, the efforts to improve society ~ all of which are largely Jewish ideals and themes ~ can or should be viewed as the thoughts of someone who offers possible solutions to societal ills from the standpoint of Russian orthodoxy. This as opposed to alien ideals as possible solutions many of which have largely Jewish influence.

Don't know if I'm making myself clear here but I hope to have done so and feel that this 'question' should be considered when you make your analysis of the book.

[bounty]

not having read Masaryk's work im at a disadvantage and shooting somewhat blindly, but as a somewhat counterpoint to poppin's post #22:

The article discusses Masaryk’s work The Spirit of Russia. In terms of methodology, The Spirit of Russia is based in Positivism, in a faith in progress and a forward-looking orientation of European development. At the same time, however, it also displays certain axiological positions that condemn conservative, monarchist or religious ideas present in Russian thought. Masaryk is critical of Russian spirituality and traditional elements of Orthodox devotion. The Orthodox faith in his view represents an antipode to progress, being non-European in character. Russia itself is presented as split internally into a progressive, European tendency, and a stagnant traditionalist segment. Masaryk’s view of Russia bears some traits of Orientalism, in particular the notion of the superiority of the European West over traditionalist Russia and the negative aspects of its traditional cultural and religious forms. He also anticipates the notion of internal colonialism within Russia itself.

.

https://link.springer.com/article/10...12-020-09355-5

im deeply skeptical of the claim the church "stifled intellectual inquiry"

as a general rule, until relatively modern times, the study of the natural world was undertaken as a way of understanding god's creation.

here's a pretty large list of folks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ian_scientists, many of whom were believers.

classical composition was intimately associated with the church and we all know Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, Korsakov, and Stravinsky.

likewise the Russian authors we know---dostoevsky, pushkin, gogol, Chekhov, and in a particularly interesting way, Tolstoy, were involved with the church.

I trust the same could be said for artists, explorers, educators, historians and any number of other erudite endeavors.

[hellsapoppin]

not having read Masaryk's work im at a disadvantage and shooting somewhat blindly, but as a somewhat counterpoint to poppin's post #22:

.

https://link.springer.com/article/10...12-020-09355-5

im deeply skeptical of the claim the church "stifled intellectual inquiry"

as a general rule, until relatively modern times, the study of the natural world was undertaken as a way of understanding god's creation.

here's a pretty large list of folks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ian_scientists, many of whom were believers.

classical composition was intimately associated with the church and we all know Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, Korsakov, and Stravinsky.

likewise the Russian authors we know---dostoevsky, pushkin, gogol, Chekhov, and in a particularly interesting way, Tolstoy, were involved with the church.

I trust the same could be said for artists, explorers, educators, historians and any number of other erudite endeavors.

Like you I cannot get into a prolonged discussion of Masaryk. However, I do endorse his view that "The Orthodox faith in his view represents an antipode to progress, being non-European in character." It was the church that strongly endorsed the Tsar and tsarist repression along with its stifling of progressive ideals many of which were either Jewish in origin or strongly endorsed by Jewish idealists.

As for Tolstoy, I have to disagree that he was so devoted to the church. Instead he was devoted to biblical ideals - teachings and practices taught by the Bible, not necessarily by the church. This blurb illustrates what I mean:


He struggled to finish Anna Karenina and then devoted the next several years to religious life. He returned to the fold of the Russian Orthodox Church, but soon doubted the Church's doctrines, rituals, and practices. Tolstoy found faith on his own terms. Love of God and neighbour and non-violence were at the core.


https://www.google.com/search?q=was+...hrome&ie=UTF-8


Sadly, the Orthodox church endorsed tsarist brutalism, intolerance of religious and ethnic minorities, and social injustice. The Bible teaches and promote tolerance, justice, love of others, sharing as opposed to hoarding of goods/resources. This is an applied Christianity endorsed and practiced to some extent by Tolstoy and other reformists.


Yes you are correct that many erudite artisans endorsed the Orthodox church. However, there were likely many more artisans exiled in Siberia on the grounds that they represented "subversive" elements in that turbulent society. Books such as Gorky's Mother and Tolstoy's Resurrection illustrate this.

[bounty]

i think in this case, parsing words might be helpful. I didn't say Tolstoy was "devoted" to the church, rather he had been associated with it, but more importantly, my saying "in an interesting way."

as you pointed out, and is my understanding too, he had problems with what would be called the "institutional church" especially one deeply associated with the state, and he left it, but he had nevertheless grown up in it and however his faith life later developed, and however his faith appeared in his writings (as you hinted at), its in part attributable to his earlier experiences, which weren't necessarily stifling and to my knowledge, the church didn't actively seek to censor him in the future. so far as I know (so a lot of naivete!), it wasn't the church sending people to siberia.

that said though---I have an old seminary church history text book I picked up at a yard sale a long time ago. in the handful of pages on the Russian orthodox church, it does mention the church being both repressed and repressive. itd be good (or maybe disheartening) to learn how that was exactly.

what you said reminded me of the catholic church's relationship with Nazi germany---some supported the government, some were neutral, and some visibly opposed it, and I wonder if there was something similar going on with the 19th century Russian orthodox church as concerns the state and its depredations. in any event, the state and church being in bed with each other usually isn't a good thing.

[bounty]

am about to start the book tonight, and at the moment im thinking of this as the theme song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wDai9s4Hmc

[hellsapoppin]

I do believe we both made good points on this matter, all of which should be considered when reading these 19th & early 20th century Russian classics.

Yet another theme in Dostoyevsky is the matter of repercussion. Perhaps the biggest difference, however, between this book and that of Resurrection or of Mother is that here the principle character is guilty of the crime he was charged with. In the others, more often than not, those charged were innocent. What does that say about the social milieu? Further, since the church (ever which denomination that might be) was complicit in such unjust evils, did the punishment the churches endure fit the crime of complicity?

Here's an example of the repercussions allegedly endured by the churches:


The Bolsheviks closed churches and used them for other purposes. There were accounts of drunken orgies taking place in the desecrated churches. The pretexts for these killings was usually alleged support for the enemy, criticism of the Bolsheviks and/or their ideology, or for liberal and/or bourgeois sympathies.


https://www.google.com/search?q=Bols...hrome&ie=UTF-8


It may well be that some of these accounts are slightly or largely exaggerated. But we don't know for sure.

Anyways, all of the above serve as background which give Crime and Punishment real life and make it more accessible to the modern reader.

[hellsapoppin]

am about to start the book tonight, and at the moment im thinking of this as the theme song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wDai9s4Hmc

I would love to see/hear Maestro Leonid Kharitonov sing "Let the Punishment Fit the Crime":




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UadpOCWhQVc



I bet he would do that phenomenally well!

[Danik 2016]

Among the many issues that appear in 19th classical Russian literature was the "Jewish question". What was their role in society? Should equal citizenship and status be accorded to them as to all others? Do they exert an undue influence in academia, in media, in worker-management dealings? Are Jewish soldiers truly loyal to the State - have they done their fare share in battle and in duty to the government? Do they undermine the Church and its "positive" influences? Do they pay their taxes? Do Jewish artisans create works that promote immorality? Why are they over represented in guilds and unions? Why do they have so many members in subversive groups such as anarchists, communists, rebellious organizations, and socialists? With all these issues under consideration are they or can they truly be said to be Russians? If by some chance it could be proven that they were loyal and contributive people to the State, should they be emancipated from the ghetto? Should laws that forbade marriage between Jews and non Jews be abolished? Should Jews be viewed as our 'equals'?

The issue of the "Jewish question" appeared in every country throughout Europe in that era. This especially so in Germany but was frequently addressed in classical 19th century Russian literature.

Dostoyevsky did not pay much attention to the issue directly in his books. While he clearly disdained nihilism (a movement which featured many prominent Jewish scholars), few of his characters were Jewish. He did not refer to them with the derogatory term "zhid" or write long passages in his stories which alleged that Jews were out to undermine the state. Dostoyevsky's strong nationalist tendency suggest that any alien ideal or religion represented a threat to the State. His writings clearly affirmed the Orthodox church which he viewed as a bulwark against Judaism, Catholicism, and socialist ideologies. During his lifetime he vigorously denied being an anti Semite. However, the consensus among historical scholars was that he was so:


https://community.middlebury.edu/~be...i-semite.shtml


Thus, although Crime and Punishment cannot be said to an anti Semitic, its themes of injustice, alienation, social identity, the quest for truth, the efforts to improve society ~ all of which are largely Jewish ideals and themes ~ can or should be viewed as the thoughts of someone who offers possible solutions to societal ills from the standpoint of Russian orthodoxy. This as opposed to alien ideals as possible solutions many of which have largely Jewish influence.

Don't know if I'm making myself clear here but I hope to have done so and feel that this 'question' should be considered when you make your analysis of the book.

As you say yourself Poppins Judaism seems not to be a issue with Dostoievsky. Christianity and moral questions as such seem to be relevant above formal religious churches.

[bounty]

im 3/4 of the way through the introduction. up until this point the intro has been biographical in nature (did we know dostoevsky had a gambling problem?) but now he's at the point where he's going to talk about the novel. I dont necessarily mind spoilers, but I often skip introductions because I know they contain them. sometimes introductions are better read after the book. I think in this case though im going to finish it.

[hellsapoppin]

I will try to follow you on the following site which has both audio & video:

https://archive.org/details/crime-an...ostoyevsky-pdf


Couldn't find a large print edition of the book but will increase the size of the font as the narration takes place. From the very beginning you can tell that this is one compelling and thought provoking book. And yes, everyone should read the intro as it gives vital background data which may provide further meaning to the reader.

[Sancho]

I have a friend who has a Russian last name. I asked him once if still has any people back in the old country. He said, "No...Maybe... Probably not. Cossacks ran my people outta there a long time ago. We're Jews."

Anyway, it's a complicated history.

[bounty]

heck Sancho, you might have just been referring to your friend's family, but in general itd probably be safe to say that Russia has had the most complicated history of all the places on the planet.

poppin how does the video work? is it the prose scrolling across the screen?

heres a gem from the introduction:

for Dostoevsky the "idea" behind the novel he was writing was of paramount significance. if all there was in "crime and punishment" was the story of a murder, it would simply be another detective tale, an early and rather successful forerunner of the modern crime novel. obviously, there is something else in the book which gives it a transcending importance in world literature. for the chief figures of his great novels are often embodied ideas. the struggle of these intellectual heroes for a faith, for a way out of the dilemma of life, usually takes the form of an idea which represents a solution of the characters spiritual existence.

[hellsapoppin]

poppin how does the video work? is it the prose scrolling across the screen?

That's precisely what happens. This way you can increase the size of the font (very important to those with weak eyes like me) and heard what words are written at the same time. There are, however, two drawbacks - the voice is drone like and some of the names are mispronounced. But heck, who's complaining?

[hellsapoppin]

I have a friend who has a Russian last name. I asked him once if still has any people back in the old country. He said, "No...Maybe... Probably not. Cossacks ran my people outta there a long time ago. We're Jews."

Anyway, it's a complicated history.

My ancestors had similar experiences.

Over my years online I've come across many Spaniards who enjoy American sports. We exchange ideas and often get personally acquainted in sports chats. I've told them that most of my family line came from Spain and how I wish I could have lived in that fascinating land but that the family had been exiled. When they ask why I use the word "marranos" which literally means "pigs" and was used as an anti Semitic derogation. Instantly, they know my ancestors (most of whom had converted to Christianity) were exiled by the evil Inquisition and by the decree of 1479 which ordered the purging of all Jews and all people who had a trace of Judaism in their bloodline for the past 500 years. Some of them tell how sorry they are that their beautiful land had such a tragic and shameful history.

[Sancho]

When I read Don Quixote this last time (with the help of Danik), I came across an essay that speculated that Cervantes came from a family of Conversos, and that the whole story of a wandering knight had a Jewishness or Yiddishness about it:

Still, Jewish readers need no convincing of Don Quixote’s inherent Yiddishkeit, especially with regard to the modern Hebrew translation by the poet Chaim Nachman Bialik (1873-1934). Working from an abridged Russian translation of Cervantes’ masterpiece — Bialik could not read Spanish — he cut the novel by over one-half. In a letter to a friend, Bialik stated: “I read [“Don Quixote”] in Russian when I first came to Odessa as a teenage yeshiva boy, trying to become a poet. I was living in poverty in Odessa, and the book had enthralled me… Dostoyevsky made me weep and Cervantes made me laugh. I alternated between laughing and crying.”

From the essay — The Secret Jewish History of Don Quixote, by Benjamin Ivry

Back to Crime and Punishment. Does anybody know why Dostoevsky blanked out the street names?

By the way, bounty, good musical choice with the Yo-Ho Heave Ho song. How about a little Khachaturian:

https://youtu.be/8ob0nRhSKAw?si=C21bQvZMHvOhvJTP
Saber Dance

“Chacho. When you are a man, sometimes you wear stretchy pants, in your room. Ees for fun.”
— Nacho Libre