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    Sticky: Oh, I saw the intro a couple of pages back and...

    Oh, I saw the intro a couple of pages back and thought I was already late to the discussion. Looks like I'm early. I'll just wait until later on in Janine Stardard Time.
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    Phrase it how you will, I was just wondering...

    Phrase it how you will, I was just wondering about what's behind the "danger" or "untrustworthiness." Considering that the last two poems we've looked at showed various different problems with women...
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    Wordsworth's interaction with Dorothy here is a...

    Wordsworth's interaction with Dorothy here is a little complicated, but I think you're right to see Wordsworth's views as something changing. So much of the poem is about the gains and losses...
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    Deceptive may be too strong, but what is it...

    Deceptive may be too strong, but what is it that's hidden beneath the paws or mittens? So many poems we've read bring a plaintive undertone to an amorous topic. What's the sadness here? The woman...
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    Sticky: I read the first page of the story while I was at...

    I read the first page of the story while I was at McDonald's today eating the most unhealthy thing they offer: #7 Crispy Chicken Sandwich and Fries with mega drink of cola. The story sounds very...
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    There's been a lot of talk of industrialization...

    There's been a lot of talk of industrialization recently, and I do want to touch on that eventually. But, for now, maybe it's best to look at just this poem's "wayward thoughts." I think one could...
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    I wonder what people think about her cutting,...

    I wonder what people think about her cutting, though. "Birds in the Night" referred to the lover's infidelity, but how is the lover in "Woman and Cat" deceptive? How and what does she cut?
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    Good poem to read after "Birds in the Night." ...

    Good poem to read after "Birds in the Night." Female deception runs high here as well. Yet, it's interesting that in "Birds in the Night" deceptiveness signals a lack of substance. The attachment...
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    Thanks for bringing that up OrphanPip because...

    Thanks for bringing that up OrphanPip because that really helped put together something that was hard for me to say. There's something that's not really satisfying about Wordsworth's philosophy:...
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    After rereading the collection yesterday I think...

    After rereading the collection yesterday I think I'm finally up to answering the big question:



    And that is a big question. It involves defining what Wordsworth set out to do, and interpreting...
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    Nicely done, ktm. I think you have quite a few...

    Nicely done, ktm. I think you have quite a few posters' interest. Some of them seem half-way intelligent, too. So long as Virgil doesn't come in and screw it up, you should have a good discussion....
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    The discussion's taken a pretty biographical...

    The discussion's taken a pretty biographical turn. I'm curious how people are putting together Verlaine's life. There isn't much in the poem's text that points to his variability--quite the...
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    Yeah, so long as ktm keeps the thread title...

    Yeah, so long as ktm keeps the thread title general and non-specific (something like the title of this thread) it shouldn't get shuffled to an author's subforum. And, yes, that's a good thing. The...
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    Certainly, but when would you start the book club?

    Certainly, but when would you start the book club?
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    I haven't gotten to Romances sans paroles, yet,...

    I haven't gotten to Romances sans paroles, yet, but I enjoyed the poem above--particularly the last three stanzas. Tomorrow I'll read through more of the poems and try to respond to some of the...
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    But poem follows poem. This is a collection. ...

    But poem follows poem. This is a collection. The only real conclusion we reach is at the very end when the lovers are ghosts. That's the life represented outside the poem: death, nothingness.

    ...
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    Poll: I was mostly talking about Book VI where...

    I was mostly talking about Book VI where Dostoevsky recounts the life and thoughts of the monk. It's up to the reader whether you want to call his views "tragic," of course, but that's a little...
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    Yeah, I'll probably stay on this poem for a...

    Yeah, I'll probably stay on this poem for a little while, too, as I haven't posted much on it yet.

    A note on the translation, though. The one posted above is a little loose. For example "et la...
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    I didn't think "Fantoches" was a bad poem. It...

    I didn't think "Fantoches" was a bad poem. It has a certain smartness about it. It's not going to change your life or anything like that, but it does what it sets out to do. "Claire de lune" is...
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    Poll: I don't think it's age that keeping Zosima in the...

    I don't think it's age that keeping Zosima in the monastery. Remember that it's his tragic vision of the world that motivates him to enter the monastery in the first place. In his youth (or perhaps...
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    Poll: Yeah, and I stand by that. The point I was...

    Yeah, and I stand by that. The point I was making in my last post was about Ivan and Zosima. Those two share many of the same assumptions: that mankind is doomed to cruelty or suffering until some...
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    I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean,...

    I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean, but, yes, it's true that we don't know the order Verlaine composed the poems in. Yet, we do know how they were published in collections. Every...
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    Poll: I think you're right to see Zosima and Ivan as...

    I think you're right to see Zosima and Ivan as two sides of the same coin rather than as complete opposites. They both share a pretty bleak view of society, both have a fatalist's assurance, and...
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    Good starting point, stlukes. A little bit...

    Good starting point, stlukes.

    A little bit of context, though, for those with the Oxford editions: the editors cut out a pretty important (but longish) poem that precedes "Fantoches." The...
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    I suppose we should wait until everyone has their...

    I suppose we should wait until everyone has their books, but will the discussion be in this thread or do you want to start another one, JBI?
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