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My post must be so brilliant that it is leaving people speechless
:lol: ktd, it is not that...not 'speechless', just 'timeless'. Your post certainly is 'brilliant', but I just have had no time to get back to this thread. I have been feeling guilty about making you wait so long, but I put it top of my long list today - truly I did....also, now... since, as Virgil said:
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Perhaps it's time for the next poem if we are going to study the series.
...and I surely agree. In fact, I just pulled up my Microsoft Word file with the poem copied in it, so I can post it right after I address this 'brilliant' post of yours ktd! So here goes:
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Originally Posted by
ktd222
Yes, you’d divulged to me this little nugget of truth regarding Lawrence and evolution a month or two ago;:nod: but gosh, it is so hard for me to see evolution and a “planned” process coexisting in this poem. I’ll make an effort for you and Virgil though.:D
I like the way you call it a 'nugget of truth'. That is good ktd; I think I probably have a few nuggets rattling around in my skull about L by now!;) I don't think, that one has to eliminate the whole idea of 'evolution' to accept that the universe is ordered and patterned. One only needs to see the patterns on such things as butterflies, tortoises, turtles, snakes, sea-life to acknowledge this patterning and orderliness. I would therefore conclude that all of nature (and Lawrence was a great observer of nature and plants and botany, etc.) falls into a kind of order, and therefore he felt it all co-existed and was part of a universal plan. Does the theory of evolution eliminate this idea? I don't feel it does, but maybe you would disagree on that point.
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I think Virgil recognized the importance of this last stanza in identifying the theme of this poem first. So thank you Virgil. But you have summed it up beautifully, Janine.
So be it-- Virgil can have all the credit.;) Thanks for your compliment on my summing it up beautifully. I might have had a moment of 'brilliance' myself that day.:)
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I will try and expand on your comments. Look at the word “manifold.” In the context of this stanza the word “manifold” is not defined, that is there’s no number identifying a degree of complexity involved in creating an individual creature. Now, just two stanzas before is a line that read “through his five-fold complex-nature.” Here we are told the exact degree of what made this tortoise. And throughout the poem we are given mathematical hints, a coefficient factor of sorts, as to how life in this world varies. However complex creatures become, they do so by a factor of five. Wow!!! In the beginning was the equation, something containable we can write out, seemingly rigid, to define the way in which all organisms arise; but the equation does not have one single answer, or two or three. The application of this equation results in that which is uncontainable, because it produces limitless answers.
ktd, not sure this is not just Lawrence's concept of the ordered universe but of course he probably knew more about nature than I do and he apparently studied these equations and number references. So when you say: 'However complex creatures become, they do so by a factor of five. Wow!!!' do you feel that is Lawrence's concept or actually the truth? I think Lawrence was pretty amazing
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Plus he adds in “The Lord” towards the end of the poem. I mean, with respect to the rest of the poem doesn’t it seem “The Cross” represents more than just a belief, a way to live this life? Doesn’t Lawrence show that the basic building block of all organisms is the Cross?
Yes, he does say "The Lord" and I am not sure at this point in Lawrence's life what his concept of 'The Lord' would be; for this seemed to change over time for him personally. The cross is very reminescent, as Virgil already stated, of the time L spent in Italy and wrote about it in his travel books. There were many crosses mentioned there up on the mountain roads. Not sure of your last question but think it is a good concept and one to consider.
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I think Virgil said it, so I would like to reiterate that the keystone is the segment at which the arch formed by segments divides into halves. It is also worth noting that the keystone, as defined online is a wedge-shaped piece, similarly as the tortoise head is described as a “wedge-balancing head.”
That is a good explanation and I like the idea or correlation of the tortoise head to the keystone shape, in your last statement here. Very good analysis!:thumbs_up
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This would have made sense if he said “threes and fours is twelves…” or something to that affect.
Well, this actually is right from his "Apocalypse book", so he must know what it means. As manolia always tells me we might not be able to figure it all out. Only by asking L himself or studying with scholars for years could we come close I suppose. I do think this numbering system ties in with the Apocalypse in the Bible and Revelations.
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This part I can grasp. No thank you, about the book. But I would like to hear what you thought about it when you’re done reading it.:blush: :D Send me a PM. Sorry, I’m just being lazy.
That is ok, you can be lazy, ktd. I have the urge myself to be lazy now -- I am kind of burned out from last month and so much activity. Thought this month would be easier but it is active too. Maybe next month on here I will take a long overdue break. I ordered the book online the other day so I don't need to copy/scan it. Glad you could grasp what I had written about it.