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Originally Posted by
kiki1982
Don't accuse me of that. I do have a moral standard, I am only not so foolish as to apply it to things in history.
Your own words and views did a pretty good job explaining why you have no real moral standards and why it's hard to take you seriously concerning this topic.
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If you do accept Hawkman's arguments, then I will side with him, because I do believe that Shakespeare intentionally applied some humanity to Shylock which most of the audience would laugh at, but which could make the more discerning think. Also in a time where Catholics were persecuted, it could be asked what the purpose of that was. On the other side, he could be called a plot device to expose the other characters and the audience just like Mr Churchill in Emma could be considered as one. Being a plot device does not mean the character is underdeveloped.
Accepting some of Hawkman's arguments does not require me to accept all of them. I also perfectly accept there are ways one can read the play as supporting Shylock. An educated person is capable of holding multiple interpretations simultaneously. Like I said, I think a good case can be made for both sides of this argument. It's precisely why there is such strong debate around this issue in the first place.
My personal position is that the play is anti-Semitic and the depiction of Shylock is anti-Semitic, but Shakespeare is so talented that he can't help but write a deep character that he manages to humanize in spite of the otherwise anti-Semitic depiction. Nevertheless, Shakespeare's talent with language and character creates an ambiguity in the language and depiction that allows for other later audiences with very different pre-conceptions to read Shylock's depiction very differently.
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Of course the study of literature consists of more than 'wow, this is beautiful and good.' And it consists of more than 'gee, this writer was properly racist, wasn't he.' And that is what I, Neely and Hawkman are addressing here.
Actually this better characterizes what I said. Neely's and your position seems to be that it shouldn't really be included at all; my position is that it should be discussed, but it shouldn't be the entire conversation and the only thing talked about as there are many other important aspects of a literary work.
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As the class system and its limitations is a core element of Austen, we might as well abandone her as we do not approve of it. And so we might abandone The Merchant of Venice because it is anti-semitic.
Ah, the slippery slope fallacy you and Neely seem so fond of. If someone points out problematic issues in a work, naturally what they really want is to ban the work altogether. Has anyone here demanded that others stop reading this work? Stop attacking a point that nobody here has actually made.
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The question in this case would be whether through being anti-semitic and reflecting contemporary bias towards Jews in the play, Shakespeare ahs the express aim to villainise Jews or rather the opposite. Do you know it? Do I know it? It ahs been discussed a lot. And what if you and I are both wrong? Would it be fair to stamp something anti-semitic based on conjecture?
No, but we are stamping it based on actually reading the play and what it says, not on Shakespeare the person. The whole intentional fallacy thing, you might want to look it up.