the holy ghost/the holy spirit

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Originally Posted by cacian

Hi Bien and thank you again for this post.
I am not familiar much with the movement that led from the Old becoming New Testament but it sounds interesting.
Pneuma I must look up as I have never heard of it until now.

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Use a Greek lexicon for "pneuma". It is where we get our words for pneumatic (air powered).

The Old Testament was written in the Hebrew language primarily for the Jews. The first five books were written by Moses after the Exodus from Egypt. This was also the establishment of Judaism (which is the Old Covenant, or Testament with Israel). The last of the Old Testament was written about 444 BC.

The New Testament (which is what the Old Testament was prophesying toward) was written in the Greek (which due to Alexander's conquests was the prevailing language over all the known world). This was to establish the church (and Christianity).

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Originally Posted by ShadowsCool

Excuse me, but you asked me a question and I gave you an answer. Now you mention the Quran. What's that have to do with it? According to the Quran Jesus was a prophet. According to the Bible He was God. I don't get how you say the Bible was tampered with. By whom? And how do you know the Quran has it right? It's your thoughts against mine.

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i feel no pleasure to make u angry my dear nor i like clash of thoughts in such a way. i was/am still confuse to understand the trinity concept. i just said that i didnt find any reasoning in ur answer,as u also said it is impossible to understand the fact how a son can b father of himself or vice versa. anyway leave it.

by whom? It is interesting to note that the religion of Islam is unique in its acceptance of the continuation and development of the divine message throughout the ages. It is the only religion which has claimed to be the culmination of the religion of God, and has strongly maintained the utmost of reverence and respect of all other prophets and their religions. Islam did not take issue with the message of other religions but with the accuracy of the facts and data that was being presented as God’s religion. God was aware that all the previous messages that He had revealed had weaknesses in the way they were recorded and passed down to future generations.

The greatest flaw was that the text and message of God was not verified and transcribed straight away. This meant that they were not repeated in a way that would preserve their authenticity and accuracy amongst a wide-ranging number of people. In fact they were collated and collected after a considerable lapse of time. This made it possible for the nobles and rulers to utilise the religious ‘text’ for their own purposes by misinterpreting or corrupting the meaning of certain passages. Despite this the Quran has referred to these scriptures as God’s holy books and declared the previous prophets as its dearest people. However, the Quran constantly refers to the continuous corruption of these divine books. But why? Suppositional texts and personal reflections have no credibility at all when compared to scientific facts. However, this All-Knowing and All-Aware Being (God) knew how Man would think in the future and how he would act. After all, it was He who had structured actions, situations and events. From the origin of the cosmos until its final outcome, God’s master plan (Lauh-e-Mahfooz) had not overlooked the presence of modern Man. His technological achievements, innovations, philosophy and outlook on life, social and economic lifestyles were all contained within the pages of the Guarded Tablet.

anyone can understand with little more research. why each bible differs with other bible ?

how do u know the Quran has it right? well there is some samples are saved since 14 hundred years not only in Muslim countries but also in Soviet Russia. they are all same.The statistical data of God did exist. It did not consist of one or two words and phrases. It was not found in traditional myths and folk tales. Nor did it come in the style of classical fictional literature. Instead, it existed in the form of a masterly manuscript which had been completely preserved. Each comma, word and sentence within it was the word of God; every thought was that of God. Whatever it conveyed was a direct inspiration from God. Its style and mode of expression was utterly unique and totally divine. This was the same God who declared that His previous scriptures had become corrupted and no longer had the seal of reliability and credibility.

How absurd is it then for modern intellectuals to rely upon the data which God Himself has declared as unreliable and use it as a basis for attacking the concept of God! Is it intellectual bigotry which has led the academics of today to repeatedly ignore the text which God has put forward as His proof and evidence? Yet they persist on using those texts, from which He has withdrawn His seal of approval, as incontrovertible evidence. What reason did we have to pursue this flawed approach in relation to God and promote this tragedy of knowledge and understanding? Thinkers such as Bertrand Russell, Wittgenstein, and Karl Marx all fell victim to this way of thinking. These great names of the modern age were accomplices in an intellectual and scientific deceit. It seems that the desires of the age compelled them to intellectual sloth and dishonesty, or perhaps they did not regard the question of God worthy of any importance. If that was the case, their approach was more flawed than using unreliable evidence in relation to God. Perhaps these ‘champions’ of science and philosophy were terrified of discovering the true reality of the cosmos. If not, then they had completely traded their services in exchange of worldly status.

The Quran is not an abstract concept or a hypothesis which should be easily overlooked by all these intellectuals. It is preserved in the memory of a vast number of people, it adorns the pages of a million books or more, it is used in the courts as the final arbiter of justice and fairness in the lives of many people, and it is found in the homes of over one billion people. This data of God was not easy to miss or overlook. Surely, its status could not be ignored when deciding the most important issue related to human life.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

Use a Greek lexicon for "pneuma". It is where we get our words for pneumatic (air powered).

The Old Testament was written in the Hebrew language primarily for the Jews. The first five books were written by Moses after the Exodus from Egypt. This was also the establishment of Judaism (which is the Old Covenant, or Testament with Israel). The last of the Old Testament was written about 444 BC.

The New Testament (which is what the Old Testament was prophesying toward) was written in the Greek (which due to Alexander's conquests was the prevailing language over all the known world). This was to establish the church (and Christianity).

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Wow I never knew Greek was the prevailing language all over the world.
You must be talking of the christian world right?!

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Originally Posted by cacian

Wow I never knew Greek was the prevailing language all over the world.
You must be talking of the christian world right?!

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Alexander made an 11 year conquest around 333 BC. I'm not sure how far into Europe he went, maybe only as far as Rome (which only existed as a city at that time). But he went as far as India, and his soldiers just didn't want to keep going.

Ghost in the Bible is not referring to a dead person, but the living essence. Thus when someone in the Bible died, it was said that they "gave up the ghost", in other words their living essence left their body.

The Holy Ghost is the living essence of God within the life of the believer.

For what it is worth, here is what I believe about the Godhead:

God created the earth, and gave man a simple code to live by, which man broke. This created a gulf between God and man. Even the Law and sacrificing could not completely heal the wound.

The Bible states that when Christ's birth was prophesied, it was "He shall be called Emmanuel, being interpreted, "God WITH Us". Before in the Old Testament, it was "God Above Us". God himself became man, to live as we live, and to experience death for our sins and heal the gap between God and Man.

When Christ rose from the dead and returned to heaven, that essence of God, The Holy Ghost, became "God in Us", the indwelling, quickening spirit.

Think of it as a Peter Sellers movie. He usually played several parts. Regardless of the role, the actor was the same.

Regardless of the position, Above, With, or In us, there remains but one God.

God bless

Pen

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

God created the earth, and gave man a simple code to live by, which man broke. This created a gulf between God and man. Even the Law and sacrificing could not completely heal the wound.

The Bible states that when Christ's birth was prophesied, it was "He shall be called Emmanuel, being interpreted, "God WITH Us". Before in the Old Testament, it was "God Above Us". God himself became man, to live as we live, and to experience death for our sins and heal the gap between God and Man.

When Christ rose from the dead and returned to heaven, that essence of God, The Holy Ghost, became "God in Us", the indwelling, quickening spirit.

Think of it as a Peter Sellers movie. He usually played several parts. Regardless of the role, the actor was the same.

Regardless of the position, Above, With, or In us, there remains but one God.

God bless

Pen

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Exactly Pen. Well explained. Most people just don't get what you just explained; let alone believe it.

One thing that makes the concept of the Holy Ghost difficult to grasp on a concrete level is the fact that the Holy Ghost seems to be so far removed from our everyday experience. It is an abstract concept that is easy to file away under OTHER. But you can understand the holy ghost as an physical experience during prayer. Often those of faith, in the act of prayer or worship, are touch or moved by the spirit- allowing them to have a very visceral religious feeling or experience. Also, another way to look at the Holy Ghost is as a form of the collective conscious, although this is not widely accepted doctrine.

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Originally Posted by Buh4Bee

One thing that makes the concept of the Holy Ghost difficult to grasp on a concrete level is the fact that the Holy Ghost seems to be so far removed from our everyday experience. It is an abstract concept that is easy to file away under OTHER. But you can understand the holy ghost as an physical experience during prayer. Often those of faith, in the act of prayer or worship, are touch or moved by the spirit- allowing them to have a very visceral religious feeling or experience. Also, another way to look at the Holy Ghost is as a form of the collective conscious, although this is not widely accepted doctrine.

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So God (the Holy Ghost) is abstract to people because their minds dictate that he stay abstract to them. Their hearts are closed to any and all openings to the Divine. You cannot reason with someone who already has their "smart minds" made up.

Having said that, I can turn it around and say the only reason we are here is because of the Holy Spirit. And if not for Him we'd be dead already. You see, I can argue that God sustains everything and allows everything good to happen. Every good moment in your life. The sun, the time you felt joy or peace. Every good event that you may reflect on. In other words just being alive. I can make that argument. And I can make the argument that everything bad happens because of man. Something an atheist would scoff at because he can't see God. So he don't believe. He allows his little mind to dictate his belief's. And believe me our minds are small. We are kinda dumb actually, yet we believe we are so much more.

Take for instance pride. Who don't have it? I'd say we all do. It rages within us. We like to think we are right about things. Not everything, but almost everything we do. It's called our defense mechanism. The (me, me, me) in man. In reality I can argue that we are nothing without this Ghost that people deny exist. I can argue that God chooses to deal with us this way. That He's so much higher than us, that we cannot physically see Him. After all this all makes sense when you realize that man is fallen and is filled with himself. I can argue that.

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Originally Posted by ShadowsCool

Exactly Pen. Well explained. Most people just don't get what you just explained; let alone believe it.

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This is unfortunately correct. It doesn't just apply to the Atheist, who cannot accept that there is a God, nor to the Agnostic, who isn't really sure. Many Christians cannot accept this, because they believe that there are three separate persons in the Godhead, instead of one God who manifested in three positions.

However, those of the Jewish faith, while they don not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, believe that when the Messiah comes He will BE God in the flesh. (If I have this wrong, may the people of the Jewish faith forgive me, as this is what I have been told by Jews of my acquaintance).

Also the Islamic people do not believe in the separation of God into three pieces. They believe this: "Say not that Allah has a son." (If I misquote this, I deeply apologize to the Islamic people, and they may correct me on this. But I am fairly sure that this quote is directly from the Qur'an).

Read the first chapter of St. John.

This is the 14th verse:
"[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Notice the words "AS OF". This means Jesus was in the appearance or like the Son of God, not that He WAS the son, He was God made flesh. Jehovah of the Old Testament BECAME Jesus in the New Testament.

St. John 14:

[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
[10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
[11] Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Verse 9-11: Jesus proclaims that He and the Father are the same, the Spirit of God incarnated in human flesh.

[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Verse 17-18 says it all, the Comforter, The Holy Ghost, is God returned to live in the heart of the believer.

One God, three positions, as Father (above us), as Son (with man in human flesh), and as Holy Ghost (indwelling in the spirit of the believer.

God bless

Pen

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

Notice the words "AS OF". This means Jesus was in the appearance or like the Son of God, not that He WAS the son, He was God made flesh. Jehovah of the Old Testament BECAME Jesus in the New Testament.

St. John 14:

[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
[10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
[11] Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Verse 9-11: Jesus proclaims that He and the Father are the same, the Spirit of God incarnated in human flesh.

[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Verse 17-18 says it all, the Comforter, The Holy Ghost, is God returned to live in the heart of the believer.

One God, three positions, as Father (above us), as Son (with man in human flesh), and as Holy Ghost (indwelling in the spirit of the believer.

God bless

Pen

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Well put Pen. And if people think that common man made these verses up they are out of their minds. When they were inspired, you knew that something higher was dictating. In other words: God.

However, there is no doubt that we are dealing with more than One Personality that are separate from the Others. The Messiah is not the same individual as Jehovah*, and the Spirit is an entirely different individual as the other two. While all Three are deity, all Three are equally powerful, and all Three are equally authoritative, They are three different entities. However, being different entities, They are all in complete agreement, therefore, They are One (in agreement). We must consider these passage.

Genesis 1:26

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Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

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Also consider the Three being present in different forms at the same time.
Matthew 3:16-17

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26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

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*(note, it is possible that both the Father and Son as depicted in the New Testament are both Jehovah, but for the discussion I will refer to Jehovah as the Father).

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Originally Posted by usman.khawar

i feel no pleasure to make u angry my dear nor i like clash of thoughts in such a way. i was/am still confuse to understand the trinity concept. i just said that i didnt find any reasoning in ur answer,as u also said it is impossible to understand the fact how a son can b father of himself or vice versa. anyway leave it.

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I'm not here to do tit for tat with someone who believes in different scripture. I'm not here to say whose right or wrong. Nor am I angry in any way. Having said all that, I believe Pen explained it very clearly. You see Christianity doesn't mean a thing unless Jesus was God.

Now you talk about not understanding how a son can be a father and a spirit too. Well it's God! And you're not going to understand it. Nor is it required of us. In other words, we don't have to understand what makes God tick.

Now when I speak of these things, it's not that I don't understand the Gospel, cause I do. I know for a fact that the Bible teaches the trinity and I'll go to my heavenly grave knowing it.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

However, there is no doubt that we are dealing with more than One Personality that are separate from the Others. The Messiah is not the same individual as Jehovah*, and the Spirit is an entirely different individual as the other two. While all Three are deity, all Three are equally powerful, and all Three are equally authoritative, They are three different entities. However, being different entities, They are all in complete agreement, therefore, They are One (in agreement). We must consider these passage.

Genesis 1:26


Also consider the Three being present in different forms at the same time.
Matthew 3:16-17


*(note, it is possible that both the Father and Son as depicted in the New Testament are both Jehovah, but for the discussion I will refer to Jehovah as the Father).

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You are right. And so may pen be. We know that God spoke in the plural when it came to creating. The thing we don't know is God can be three different personalities and still be One. In other words the depths of God Himself. But we do think He's three different personalities in the one Godhead. These are realms that blow the mind. Thankfuly for salvation we are not required to know the depths of God. For none of us would be saved. Only that we believe on Him and He being God would know.

Now notice that moses wrote that probably knowing that he didn't understand it. That goes to show anyone that God inspired the scripture and not man.

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Originally Posted by ShadowsCool

You are right. And so may pen be. We know that God spoke in the plural when it came to creating. The thing we don't know is God can be three different personalities and still be One. In other words the depths of God Himself. But we do think He's three different personalities in the one Godhead. These are realms that blow the mind. Thankfuly for salvation we are not required to know the depths of God. For none of us would be saved. Only that we believe on Him and He being God would know.

Now notice that moses wrote that probably knowing that he didn't understand it. That goes to show anyone that God inspired the scripture and not man.

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Honestly, I don't think that it is our capacity to totally understand it. Man cannot understand infinity really, but they cannot understand if things were finite either....

"Before Abraham was, I am" John 8:58 (do you REALLY understand that?)

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

Honestly, I don't think that it is our capacity to totally understand it. Man cannot understand infinity really, but they cannot understand if things were finite either....

"Before Abraham was, I am" John 8:58 (do you REALLY understand that?)

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BienvenuJDC, of course not! I know for a fact that we are in agreement on this subject. We being man cannot fathom the depths of God. That's why we leave it be and just believe on it. There certainly is scripture, even today , that is considered mystery.

When Jesus said "I Am" that had to blow their minds. Of course that's why they set to stone Him because of it.

Here is another scripture that tends to befuddle people:

Jude 1:9, But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

Does anyone in their right mind believe the writer understood what he was writing when he wrote that? I doubt it.

That's what I call Divine insight. This is the first time learning of such a matter. Who knew the devil disputed the body of Moses. But it makes sense knowing how the devil acts.