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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperborean
I'll remember never to ask you to write anything down for me since you consider that such a violation of your free will.
To me, it is just silly to say that inspiration is the same as a loss of free will. Now, if God held a gun to their heads, then I might agree with you. But as far as I know God doesn't have a gun license. ;) (doesn't really need one)
Howdy Adu,Quote:
Originally Posted by Adudaewen
Your last sentence, particularly the part in parentheses, proves hyper's point in my opinion. Why use a gun when you're omnipotent, omnicient, and eternal? Didn't the Christian god know it was going to eventually have to send its human form to earth to get nailed to the cross--even before it created the world?
Your assertion that creation if "fantasy" expresses an opinion and nothing else but - an opinion you cannot substantiate. Feel free to give examples of what "facts" creation "flies in the face of" so I can seriously consider them; then I'll throw out at you some of the sheer absurdities that science requires me to accept to explain reality without the causal agent of God. The only "fantasy" being entertained here IMO is the idea that we're the products of random, faceless chance - the odds of which occurring are so astronomical as to approach zero probability.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
Creation is not physical, and we live in a physical realm. Creation is fantasy...it's imagined.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redzeppelin
Why do you force me to repeat to you what I just told another poster? Re-read my post above and pretend its addressed to you, because you basically said the same thing The Atheist said. How about adding something new?Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperborean
I'm sure you got my sarcasm, but just to clarify that my sentence was meant very glibly. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintermute
How I understand God is that He gave us free will, so yes, I do believe He did know what could eventually happen. It was up to the decisions of Adam and Eve and all other offspring how it would all play out. He knows all roads, but it is up to us which road we take. That is my understanding of it.
the odds are not astronimical. you are looking at it the wrong way. tell me all the odds that you think add up to an astronomical chance.
Good Morning Adudaewen,Quote:
Originally Posted by Adudaewen
So, It (He) didn't know that Eve would take a bite of the apple? He (It) didn't know that it would be necessary to flood the entire world, killing an uncountable number of presumably innocent babies? He doesn't know whether I will eventually wind up in heaven or hell? I thought that was the definition of omicient. It's precisely these kinds of questions that keep me up here on the fence. In my 50 years on this planet, I've discussed this idea of 'free will' combined with an omncient creator on countless occasions with (mainly) Christians. I've yet to understand the reasoning. Perhaps I'm just doomed to a life of uncertainty :)
I repeat what is right. You can squirm around the truth as much as you want. Heaven and God are imaginary...they are imagined by man. We don't really know if it exists; faith tells us that it's there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redzeppelin
Hmm, there are some people here that haven't figured out...you aren't changing either of your opinions, and keep going around in circles. Rationality and debate don't exist on this thread. Hyp and RZ, should just agree to disagree. You both seem to have a love/hate relationship. Its almost as if this thread stays alive because you bicker...just my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintermute
Actually that is not my meaning at all. I posted "He knows all roads, but it is up to us which road we take." That's where free will comes into play. He knows all the paths we can take through our lives, He knows the outcomes of each. So, yes He did know all of those things, and does. Re-read my post, and I hope you'll better understand my meaning.
Hey Adu,Quote:
Originally Posted by Adudaewen
No, I understand your meaning, and appreciate it. It just doesn't make sense to me. Why slaughter all those innocent babies when you already know you're gonna need to do it? Why not just start the universe from that point? Why force folks to go through all the pain and agony if you already know what the end result will be? I'd like to believe that if a universal creator exists, that it is nicer than the one we've been talking about--I sure hope so anyway.
I certainly understand your point of view. I don't pretend to understand everything that has happened, nor do I have a crystal clear understanding of why God has done some of the things that He has done.
However, if you really break it down, the suffering and agony of humanity has been caused directly by humanity. Blaming God is a pretty understandable human reaction to the horrors and tragedy of the world. However, hate and fear, pain and suffering, all of these things are direct byproducts of sin.
I don't think that it is unreasonable for God to ask us to follow Him. All of the commandments He has given us keep us safe, allow us to live a good, full, productive life filled with love from Him and others. People in general have a habit of wanting do to whatever they want whenever they want it, and then complain about the consequences. If we just realize that everything we do is intimately connected with every other living being on this earth, we may start to rethink our desires. Sure, in theory, it would be great to just go out and drink and drug and have sex whenever the desire strikes us, and eat ourselves stupid, kill whoever annoys us and take whatever we want whether it belongs to someone else or not, but that doesn't really sound like a world I want to live in. I would rather live in a world guided by God than by man. As a species, we really don't make the best choices.
Along with free will comes responsibility. If we deny that responsibility, or abuse it, it leads to pain, loss and suffering.
The idea of a God that expects us to show responsibility, empathy, and love doesn't sound so bad to me.
In The Creator and the Cosmos, astrophysicist HughQuote:
Originally Posted by Matrim Cuathon
Ross lists 25 parameters that must each fall within a very narrow range in order to make life possible (I have not time to list them all here); as well, Ross has a list of 32 other specific parameters that deal with out sun-moon-planet system. All of these parameters cannot exceed certain narrow limits if life is to be possible. Please tell me what you think the odds are that all these parameters happen to coincide and be just within the proper limits?
the universe has hundreds of billions of chances. there are theoretically at least
4x10^22 stars in the universe. (i think i got the notation right anyhow.)