as you like it as in an understanding of .../
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beewulf
I had a bit of struggle trying to make sense of your entire post, but your initial observation that "As You Like It" can be thought of as a comparison seems reasonable. It's interesting to ponder what exactly Shakespeare meant by this title, and to whom the "You" refers. I always imagined he was addressing the audience, in the sense that the action of the play works out happily, they way "You" (the audience) likes it.
What I am suggesting in my discussion of as you like it as a discussion of "your frown" what with you an image of the youthful countenance of Henry, 3rd Earl of Southampton, painted upon art's borrowed face, that is as in an understanding of a speaking of his name and fame. The testing of sworn oath of Rosalind incognito Ganymede is of interest on the level of an understanding of invention of a maid in a man's attire as devised by Shakespeare to strike the mind's eye with Henry Wriothesley's face painted upon art's borrowed face. Shakespeare began to do this in my view in sonnet 3 and then added to the portrait in sonnet 20. In this view when Shakespeare writes in sonnet 81, "you still shall live such virtue hath my pen", he refers to his discussion of Henry Writhesley as the "master-mistress of my passion", that is a spiritual passion, a discussion that includes "as you like it" made more agreeable in compare to, inter alia, when Marlowe's "slack" muse sings of Leander's eyes in his "Hero and Leander".
When, how, and why Shakespeare cites Marlowe in "As You LIke It" - a briefsuggestion
I should like to take this opportuntiy to suggest when, how, and why Shakespeare cites Marlowe in his comedy, "As You Like It". The question becomes who are "you" and what is "it", in "As You LIke It"? For "when" goes to as in an understanding that the Bard responds to when Marlowe's poem comes to print to be made more agreeble, as Walsingham's foster child, and "how" is in an aside that is inserted in between Phoebe's rant or the lie direct to the lie that claims there is a force in eyes that can do hurt, and her very taunting letter meaning Ganymede is a beast who has that very force. In other words to Silvius she denies this force, but after smitten by Ganymede she taunts Ganymede with it. In other words, in between saying that there is no such thing as murderer's eyes, and then later when she taunts Ganymede with having murderer's eyes, Phobe cites a line from Marlowe's "Hero and Leander" as she affirms that she has a new insight and appreciation for Marlowe's erstwhile "saw". Thatis to suggest that that which was to her formerly merely a "saw" she finds of might now by reason of being smitten while being scorned by Ganymede. That she cites part of Marlowe's "saw" as if she is citing an amorous poem reminds one of Touchstone's observation, "When a man's verses cannot be understood, nor a man's good wit seconded by the forward child, understanding, it strikes a man more dead than a great reckoninge in a little room.". We are reminded George Chapman's muse feigns singing as if from the same source of inspiration from whence Marlowe's muse had drunk, calls his Sestiads, "Hero and Leander, An Amorous Poem", compares the taking of Hero by Leander as a compare to the taking of the city of Cadiz by Robert Devereaux, the 3rd Earl of Essex, has the Fates murder Leander with malice aforethought, followed by the willful suicide of Hero upon discovery of his drowned body, and then ends the poem as follows:
Neptune for pittie in his armes did take them,
Flung them into the ayre, and did awake them
Like two sweet birds surnam'd th'Acanthides,Which we call Thistle-warps, that neere no Seas
Dare ever come, but still in couples flie,
And feede on Thistle tops, to testifie
The hardnes of their first life in their last:
The first in thornes of love, and sorrowes past.
And so most beautifull their colours show,
As none (so little) like them: her sad brow
A sable velvet feather covers quite,
Even like the forehead cloths that in the night,
Or when they sorrow, Ladies use to weare:
Their wings blew, red and yellow mixt appeare,
Colours, that as we construe colours paint
Their states to life; the yellow shewes their saint,
The devill Venus, left them; blew their truth,
The red and black, ensignes of death and ruth.
And this true honor from their love-deaths sprung,
They were the first that ever Poet sung.
When Marlowe's verses cannot be understood as satire, nor his good wit seconded by the forward child of an invention of a maid in a man's attire who was made for amorous play in a mood of satire, understanding, feigned by Chapman's muse, and by Phoebe, "it strikes a man more dead than a great reckoning in a little room", or a great account, satire, of Hero and Leander in Hero's Tower. Again, Phoebe tells Silvius there is no such thing as murderer's eyes, is smitten by Ganymede, then tells her audience now she finds Marlowe's saw of might, and then on further reflection on what Ganymede had to say to scorn at her, and that she did not respond to being taunted by him while he scorned her for being a dark lady who needs a candle to be seen when she goes to bed, unlike Hero who can be seen by Leander when she goes to bed, and she realizes that "omittance is no quittance", and she determines to answer "taut pour taut" with her "very taunting letter" meaning Ganymede has "murderer's eyes" like Leander, and if he does not stop scorning her like that, and "take Of me and all that I can make;", well then she will "study how to die". And if she were to die like Hero scorned by Leander then the sworn oath, "By this hand, it will not kill a fly", sworn by Shakespeare's maid in a man's attire who was not made simply for amorous play is a lie.
When Phoebe cites in part Marlowe's erstwhile "saw" she says, "Dead shepherd, now I find thy saw of might, Whoever loved, that loved not at first sight?". She finds Marlowe's "saw of might" now that she is smitten with the love at first sight kind of love like the one she has found in Marlowe's verses. The full saw, or couplet is part of a narrative response to Leander wounded by Love at the first sight of Hero,
And in the midst a silver altar stood,
There Hero sacrificing turtles blood,
Vaild to the ground, vailing her eie-lids close,
And modestly they opened as she rose:
Thence flew Loves arrow with the golden head,
And thus Leander was enamoured.
Stone still he stood, and evermore he gazed,
Till with the fire that from his count'nance blazed,
Relenting Heroes gentle heart was strooke,
“Such force and vertue hath an amorous looke.”
Phoebe cites the fifth couplet of the narrative commentary on the above event,
It lies not in our power to love, or hate,
For will in us is over-rul'd by fate.
When two are stript, long ere the course begin,
We wish that one should loose, the other win.
And one especiallie doe we affect,
Of two gold Ingots like in each respect.
The reason no man knowes, let it suffise,
What we behold is censur'd by our eies.
Where both deliberat, the love is slight,
Who ever lov'd, that lov'd not at first sight?
When Marlowe's narrator suggests that the wound suffered by those lovers who loved not at first sight is slight in compare to the wound suffered by Leander, of course that is tongue in cheek. An Elizabethan audience can hear allusion to Sir Philip Sidney's Astrophil wounded by love that is not at the first sight. For example, they would be put in mind of inter alia sonnet two of Sidney's love not at first sight sonnet sequence, "Astrophil and Stella", "Not at first sight, nor with a dribbed shot, Love gave the wound which ere I breathe yet will bleede ...". To suggest that the wound suffered by Astrophil is slight in compare to the wound suffered by Leander is an instance of Marlowe striving to amuse his audience, an audience that includes Robert Devereaux's sister, Penelope, the dark haired beauty who is the source of inspiration for Sidney's muse. Clearly, Marlowe's muse is having fun with compare, and Shakespeare brings an instance of Marlowe's good wit to the foreground what with Phoebe's understanding of a man's verses as if they were seriously an amorous poem added fun.
Additionally, Shakespeare's "As You Like It" plays upon an understanding of an history of Marlowe's poem originally scheduled for print in 1593, prior to Marlowe's sudden demise, and thereafter adopted in print in 1598 as Walsingham's foster child as if "Hero and Leander" is only "an half-finished tragedy" at the time of Marlowe's death. But that is another story, and the purpose in this discussion is merely to briefly suggest when, how, and why Shakespeare cites a line from Marlowe's poem.
Phoebe an object of mercy unlike Ophelia etc
As you like it, it will not kill a fly. Why? Because it is not without right, or righteousness. How does one get righteousness? It is a free gift of God. When Rosalind swears, "By this hand, it will not kill a fly", is she telling the truth, or is she a lying spirit? Remember in Hamlet, when a spirit who appears to be Hamlet's father says so and so, the Prince rightly determines to test this spirit to know whether it is a lying spirit or not. Hamlet tells us that in order to test the spirit who appears to be his father, he will feign madness in order to purchase time that is needed to do that. But if he really is only feigning madness then, when he scorns Ophelia, her testimony should agree with his, else he lies when he says that he is feigning madness. When Hamlet scorns Ophelia, it is not like when Ganymede, in as you like it, scorns Phoebe. For Phoebe becomes smitten while being scorned. An already smitten Ophelia does respond well to being scorned by Hamlet. She becomes melancholy, and drowns by willful suicide. In other words, when Ophelia is scorned by Hamlet, it kills her spirit for life. At one point, she says, "O woe is me, to have seen what I have seen, to see what I see!" When Phoebe is scorned by Ganymede, she sees what Ophelia once saw in Hamlet. When Phoebe is scorned by Ganymede, she is delighted as surely as the sun delights to peep into those glazed windows that are painted by Shakespeare in sonnet 24. Clearly, unlike Ophelia scorned by Hamlet, it does not kill her. Instead, she is smitten as in compare to verses which she has found in Marlowe's "Hero and Leander", and upon further reflection on what he had to say to scorn at her, as well as rememberance she did not answer, but omittance is no quittance, Phoebe determines to answer with a very taunting letter meaning I suggest with much compare to verses omitted from Marlowe's "Hero and Leander" when printed in 1598, "Desunt Nonnulla", post line 818, that is with some things omitted. That is to suggest that Ganymede's scorn becomes a kind of taunting to Phoebe, and that her response, her very taunting letter is as in an understanding of a taut pour taut. Additionally, I suggest that her taut pour taut tests whether sworn oath, "By this hand, it will not kill a fly" is true or not. Further, Rosalind incognito Ganymede proves to not be a lying spirit, unlike the Prince of Denmark who claims that he feigns madness and yet when he scorns Ophelia it kills her spirit. In Phoebe's very taunting letter, she indicates that if Ganymede does not stop scorning her, I suggest, like Marlowe's Leander scorns Hero in the verses omitted from "Hero and Leander" in 1598, then she will study how to die. We may also be reminded of the fact that when Ophelia is scorned by Hamlet, she waxes melancholy, or in a real sense studies how to die.
Another interesting thing about Phoebe's letter is not only does it test Rosalind's sworn oath, "By this hand, it will not kill a fly", as she speaks of Ganymede as if he were a god to a shepherd turned, or as if he is a Ganymede to a Leander transformed with eyes that could do "vengeance" to her, and therefore meaning he is "a beast" like Leander, in effect, with "murderer's eyes", and therefore if he does not stop scorning her, in effect, she will study how to die wherefore that means it kills her, and therefore the taunting is that if she dies by drowning then he will miss his opportunity to be loved by her. A point here being that when Phoebe affirms in her letter that he has "murderer's eyes", that affirmation affirms the very thing that she has told Silvius (when he begs her not to scorn him as it will kill him) does not exist, there is no such thing. Apparantly she finds of might not only the couplet which she cites in part in her aside, additionally she finds of might verses that hold Hero scorned by Leander, and if we are to believe Phoebe's allusion in her letter as being made to Marlowe's verses then by logical extension Phoebe alludes to verses that are missing or omitted from from Marlowe's "Hero and Leander" printed in 1598.
Unlike Hamlet who when tested on whether or no his scorn of Ophelia is just feigned madness is proven to be wrong, Rosalind when tested on the same issue is proven to not be a liar. For when Phoebe taunts Ganymede with having "murderer's eyes", or "executioner's eyes", or "butcher's eyes", or eyes that have a force that can "do hurt", or can do "vengeance" to her, Rosalind incognito Ganymede proves that she is not merely a maid in a man's attire who was made for amorous play. Instead, she reveals charity, unmerited kindness, that is fruit of the spirit that comes from the love of God shed abroad in her heart, as she helps Phoebe to move on to the altar where Silvius, her true love will be, and where they will wed.
I submit that the difference between Ophelia scorned by Hamlet and Phoebe scorned by Ganymede is the spirit of adoption. In other words, given the cause of the thing done in terms of a maiden scorned and it kills her, we ask what is the cause of the cause of the thing done? For the cause of the cause as per the legal doctrine, "causa causae est causa causati" (Cf. "Black's Law Dictionary"), or the cause of the cause of the thing done may also be said to be the cause of the thing done. When the thing done is Ophelia scorned by Hamlet as in compare to Phoebe scorned by Ganymede the difference is the cause of the cause of the thing done, and the difference in the cause of the cause of the thing done is the nature of the spirit of adoption. The difference in the nature of the spirit of adoption is the difference between some thing that is rotten in Denmark versus as you like it breathed abroad. That is to suggest that the nature of the spirit of adoption that ursurps the rightful King of Denmark and who comes in the name of Claudius is the same spirit that the Bible identifies as one who comes but for to lie, to deceive, to destroy. It is without righteousness. The tragedy of the Prince of Denmark is that this spirit has already taken possession of his spirit when he scorns Ophelia, and that evil spirit is what she sees when she looks into his eyes, and it kills her. On the other hand, as you like it made more agreeable the spirit of adoption that animates Rosalind incognito Ganymede is the spirit of adoption whom the scripture calls Abba, Father, in Paul's letter to the church at Rome. And therefore when Phoebe is scorned by Ganymede, the amusement is not that she is smitten while being scorned, but in her response that comes in the form of aside and in the form of a very taunting letter written as in an understanding by her that her being scorned by Ganymede has given her a new understanding of verses in Marlowe's "Hero and Leander".
The spirit of adoption is an issue in the life of "you", Henry Wriothesley, (1573-1624). His father, the second Earl of Southampton/Baron of Titchfield, dies suddenly, possibly poisoned, and probably under taint of treason by association with Queen Mary's cause . Henry, the third Earl, is a ward of the crown when he is in his eighth year of life. Circa 16-17, he becomes a court favorite until breach of promise of marriage to Elizabeth de Vere, circa 1593, and marriage in secret to Elizabeth Vernon, in 1598, a cousin to the Second Earl of Essex, Robert Devereaux, and his sister Penelope Devereaux. The House of Devereaux having royal blood, marriage into the Devereaux House is a big step up for the Wriothesleys. Henry campaigns with Robert in 1596 and in 1597, Cadiz and the Azores, and again in 1599 in Ireland. During the latter campaign in Ireland, Essex promotes Southampton to a prestigious position, that of the Lord General of the Horse (promotion is made while they are in the fields of Ireland and far from the Queen). Someone, possibly Lord Gray tells the Queen, and she immediately writes a letter to Essex to reprimand him and to command him to remove Southampton from this honored position. One notes Lord Gray and Southampton have a strong quarrel in Ireland and that occurs while Lord Southampton is Lord General of the Horse; later, when Southampton returns to the streets of London, Lord Gray ambushes Southampton who travels with a single attendant. Southampton manages to escape unharmed; it is this same Lord Gray who also is a member of the jury that finds Southampton and Essex guilty of treason.
Who are "you" and what is "it" in "as you like it"?
as you like it, it is Non Sanz Droict
Another discussion of "As You Like It"
[B]When giving consideration to the question, why does Shakespeare cite part of a couplet that comes from Marlowe's "Hero and Leander", when the Bard from Stratford that is upon the Avon River wrote "As You Like It"? At some point, one may ask who are "you" and what is "it" that you like in this comic vision of "it"? And in an approach to an answer to these questions and others, well, we might ponder why when Phoebe is scorned by Ganymede, why is she smitten in a way that reminds her of when or how Hero's "gentle heart" relents in Marlowe's "Hero and Leander" ? That is to suggest Phoebe's aside, her first reponse to being scorned by Ganymede, indeed invokes a very special moment in Marlowe's verses, and that part of the amusement, that is to an Elizabethan audience, yet breathing in the 1590's, is in the recognition of Phoebe's understanding of Marlowe's "Hero and Leander" that is as if Marlowe's satire was not a satire, and instead, in her understanding Marlowe's verses constitute "an amorous poem". In other words, in the way that she cites "Hero and Leander", obviously she does not think of the verses as satire, instead she understands them as if the source of inspiration from whence Marlowe's muse had drunk was to write "an amorous poem".
You still shall live such virtue hath my pen
Shakespeare in sonnet 81, a companion sonnet with sonnet 80, writes, in verses 5-14,
Your name from hence immortal life shall have,
Though I, once gone, to all the world must die:
The earth can yield me but a common grave,
When you entombed in men's eyes shall lie.
Your monument shall be my gentle verse,
Which eyes not yet created shall o'er-read,
And tongues to be your being shall rehearse
When all the breathers of this world are dead;
You still shall live -- such virtue hath my pen --
Where breath most breathes, even in the mouths of men.
I suggest that Shakespeare's verses speak to the same "You", found in line 13 above, that is the same "you" when he speaks of "As You Like It". When Shakespeare writes "You still shall live - such virtue hath my pen, Where breath most breathes, even in the mouths of men." , we may hear, or perhaps overhear is a better word, the Bard refer to the "virtue" of his pen.
We might take this to refer not only to praise of "you" when writing of "the master-mistress of my passion", i.e., spiritual passion, that is in sonnet 20, and that is in more than one sonnet, and that is in more than one play, "As You Like It" being one example.
Additionally, we might keep in mind his pen's "virtue" is in the sense indicated in sonnet 24:4, i.e., "And perspective it is the painter's art". For example, the reason why the sun delights to peep in sonnet 24 is not unlike the reason the object of a young man's gaze is illumed by a single eye that is as in an understanding of "gilding the object whereupon it gazeth", in sonnet 20. And this kind of praise is why "You" still "shall live" even after all the breathers alive in Shakespeare's time have passed.
As You Like It as compare
[B]Again, I should like to suggest that in "As You Like It", we may find more than one spin on a causal chain wherein the thing done is water, or the Hellespont, or Hella's Sea is "guilty of true love's blood".
Shakespeare's triad, or three legged chair
So, given Phoebe references somethings missing or omitted from "Hero and Leander" when printed in 1598 "Desunt Nonnulla", post line 818, and with a preface which suggests Marlowe's poem as "an half-finished tragedy", and as such Walsingham has adopted in print, and, that by reason of his oversight, Marlowe's verses will breathe abroad "more agreeable and thriving", as his foster child," than if under any other foster countenance whatsoever", we can say, inter alia, that Shakespeare does not believe the spin on Marlowe's poem which is being promulgated in Walsingham's name, in 1598. Further, Shakespeare takes aim at George Chapman's follow-up, "Hero and Leander, An Amorous Poem", The Six Sestiads, by Marlowe and Chapman. Shakespeare targets the notion of Marlowe's poem as "an amorous poem" promulgated by Chapman's muse in Sestiads Three through Six. Furthermore Shakespeare takes umbrage with the notion of Hero, in Sestiad Three, linked to Lord Essex instead of Lord Southampton, and with the idea of Chapman's ending to Marlowe's poem as "more agreeable and thriving" than if under the controlling spirit of any other foster countenance whatsoever. Shakespeare inserts Marlowe's original ending via Phoebe's "very taunting letter", and therefore we have a triad or a three legged chair formed by our understanding of the original ending to Marlowe's "Hero and Leander" as the very first leg, Chapman's ending as the second leg, and "more agreeable" than either the first or second leg is Shakespeare's third leg and that is "as you like it" made "more agreeable".
