View RSS Feed

Memories of the 28th Century

Illusion of Free Will

Rating: 2 votes, 5.00 average.
The concept that humans are able to freely make decisions and act upon them is quite common, and it appears to have existed for many thousands of years, at least. On the surface it often appears that people are making their own decisions, and so on, but on a deeper level, human activities probably are controlled by events and causes that are outside the control of those persons.

A strong argument can be made that everything that happens is the result of earlier causes; although it is often difficult or impossible to determine what the specific cause was, but part of that problem is because the causes are usually compounds of several reasons.
Here are links to three articles on Cause and Effect, the third one may the most informative.
http://www.iep.utm.edu/hume-cau/
http://www.ihpusa.org/causeandeffect
http://www.commonsensescience.org/pd..._causality.pdf

The Common Sense Science article also puts forth the idea that Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle is simply a matter of not having complete data, and if we had complete data it would be clear what the cause(s) of Quantum interactions were, even though they are considered random, unpredictable, events at the present time.

Science is, and has been, based on cause and effect at least as far back as Galileo; before that there were attacks from Atomists who had other ideas. In the centuries since then scientific thinking has become more involved in how the world operates.

More recently, there have been attacks on cause and effect by some people backing Quantum Theory. The idea that there is randomness in Quantum Theory bothered me until I realized that there are events that appear to be random, because we do not have instruments that provide sufficient resolution for us to watch what is going on inside the nuclei of atoms, but I believe that someday such instruments will be devised, and we will be able to watch the events that lead to a nucleus emitting a particle or beam of energy.

One the macro scale the problem is that we have too much information, and it is impossible to untangle the webs of chains of cause and effect such that we can tell which causes lead to which results. As it is, we can tell what the main influence was, and sometimes we can determine some of the minor contributory causes were, but to determine what causes had what percentage of the cause of a given result is beyond what we can determine, but that doesn’t undermine the concept.

Then there is the question of what part of the brain is making decisions and do we have control over that. The available indicates that the subconscious mind makes the decisions, and it usually does a good job. https://www.relationshipscoach.co.uk...isions-for-us/ In many ways the situation is analogous to a personal computer running an Operating System (OS) that has a Graphical User Interface (GUI), as Windows had through Windows 98. Users would use the GUI to make changes to settings, etc. and the changes would go into the OS, but we would only see the GUI, unless we felt like opening DOS, which was the underlying Operating System. For nearly all purposes the GUI was the Operating System, because that was where users would make their changes. And there were background programs running that didn’t appear in the GUI, so the computer was doing all sorts of things without the user knowing. Similarly, the subconscious does all sorts of things in the background from regulating blood pressure to digesting food without the conscious mind being involved at all.

While all those things are going on in the background, the conscious mind still thinks that it is running things. Even if we did have free will, we wouldn't need it, because the subconscious would be making the decisions and running without out awareness.

Then there is the underlying programming that determines a large part of what people do. Most of that is genetic, but we can't be sure, because this is something that goes on without our conscious awareness. In addition, parental direction and other early (and late) experiences also lead to later activities, but we can't tell whether these are also results of genetic programming; although they don't appear to be. And we are also influenced by society. When we toss everything into the pot there is quite a mess that gets stirred together, and all of it may be causes for events in our lives; causes over which we had no direction or control. And most of these are things that might prevent us from acting by our unrestricted free will, if we had free will.

Even if we want to believe that we have free will, the matters of decisions being made other than by the conscious mind and the chain of cause and effect that would have preceded our decision pretty much destroys any chance that we actually exercise free will. It also brings into question punishments for criminal acts, unless the Ancient Greeks were right and the eternal soul would be learning, even if the brain wasn't.

Maybe I shouldn’t have mentioned the soul at all, but I did, so I should cover that also. Depending on which concept of soul one has it may allow for free will to operate in some ways, or it may be another source of background programming that eliminates to possibility of free will. The traditional concept of the soul as a thing that contains the spiritual aspects of consciousness makes it part of what prevents us from having free will, and the matter of souls drinking from the River Lethe before being assigned to a new incarnation suggests that the soul may simply be a matter of observing a life. To the best of my knowledge, there is no objective evidence for the existence of souls; although there is a large amount of subjective evidence for their existence, so this may not be a relevant matter.

On a personal basis, I used to believe that free will was possible, but the chain of cause and effect acting on everything made me change my mind. I would like to think that decisions that I make are effective, not just passing fancies. This is just an outline of the issues involved in free will; there are more complete discussions of it online, but most people don't need to go into the details. It seems that people want to have free will, but they seldom understand what it entails. It appears to me that the subconscious makes it appear that the conscious mind is in the driver's seat, but that is not the way it is. It makes for interesting things to think about.

Comments

  1. ShakeintheMts's Avatar
    Agree with that, and love the way that you can get tied up in paradoxes when you start thinking about it. For example, can you decide to believe or not believe in free will? If we live in a deterministic universe your beliefs are no exception to that determinism. The sensation of having free will is vivid and actual, while the intellectual acknowledgement that there are predetermined patterns governing our lives at every level from the molecular up to the global requires hard thought and reflection. Is there any benefit in acknowledging that we live in a predetermined universe? Not really. I think most writers in the seventeenth-century would have thought the same and called it Divine Providence.

    It does, however, provide a check to the more outrageous egotism of people who want to set themselves up as self-made men, geniuses or even just to declare that they deserve their good fortune. No one deserves anything. We are all a product of our genetics and environment and nothing more.
  2. PeterL's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by ShakeintheMts
    Agree with that, and love the way that you can get tied up in paradoxes when you start thinking about it. For example, can you decide to believe or not believe in free will? If we live in a deterministic universe your beliefs are no exception to that determinism. The sensation of having free will is vivid and actual, while the intellectual acknowledgement that there are predetermined patterns governing our lives at every level from the molecular up to the global requires hard thought and reflection. Is there any benefit in acknowledging that we live in a predetermined universe? Not really. I think most writers in the seventeenth-century would have thought the same and called it Divine Providence.
    As you noted, "the sensation of free will is vivid", but there are moments when I see my subconscious mind at work, and recent findings in neuro-science have also seen this, where the subconscious mind makes decisions before the conscious mind even starts working. Mystics believe that there are four (4) brains or minds: conscious, Astral, Mental, and spiritual. Most people only know the conscious mind.

    It does, however, provide a check to the more outrageous egotism of people who want to set themselves up as self-made men, geniuses or even just to declare that they deserve their good fortune. No one deserves anything. We are all a product of our genetics and environment and nothing more.
    That's how it is.
  3. Magnocrat's Avatar
    The famous atheist Sam Harris believes free will and the self are illusions, if so they are pretty strong ones. He runs into serious problems since nobody can be blamed for anything that they do.
    There is some difficulty in explaining meta- consciousness or self awareness and just how it differs from animal consciousness. Professor Penrose believes it is connected to quantum mechanics in some way, he rejects the idea that computers will ever be self-aware.
  4. PeterL's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnocrat
    The famous atheist Sam Harris believes free will and the self are illusions, if so they are pretty strong ones. He runs into serious problems since nobody can be blamed for anything that they do.
    There is some difficulty in explaining meta- consciousness or self awareness and just how it differs from animal consciousness. Professor Penrose believes it is connected to quantum mechanics in some way, he rejects the idea that computers will ever be self-aware.
    I am not acquainted with Mr Harris, but those opinions are not rare. The matter of the self being an illusion hinges largely on definition. Fundamentally, self-awareness is common to all animals and plants; they can tell the difference between "me" and "not-me", even single celled life can do that, and that's basically what the self is about. The rarefied concept that some people have doesn't mean anything to most people. From what I know of it, the search for a difference between animal consciousness and human consciousness has come back with nothing.

    Penrose idea that computer will never be self aware demands some sort of soul that computers simply don't have, but from what I have read about animal consciousness, the spirit is an outgrowth of computer power becoming greater. Even he biggest and fastest computers aren't close to human brains in many ways.
  5. Magnocrat's Avatar
    I am a plain layman who examines the experts.I think you will find the vast majority disagree.
    There are some who believe a few higher mammals have self- awareness as shown by the mirror test. Most believe it is only man who self aware.
    Infact Julian Jaynes believed that we were not self- aware until about 3000 years ago before that time we possessed bicameral minds.
    It was the appearance of self awareness that caused the conscience to be born in us. This meant we were at war with ourselves as pointed out by Freud.
    The tiger knows no sorrow it kills instinctively.
  6. PeterL's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnocrat
    I am a plain layman who examines the experts.I think you will find the vast majority disagree.
    There are some who believe a few higher mammals have self- awareness as shown by the mirror test. Most believe it is only man who self aware.
    This is a matter of how one defines "self-awareness". A narrow definition can make only humans self-aware, and not all humans either, while a broader definition has all animals being self-aware. This is a matter of opinion.

    Infact Julian Jaynes believed that we were not self- aware until about 3000 years ago before that time we possessed bicameral minds.
    It was the appearance of self awareness that caused the conscience to be born in us. This meant we were at war with ourselves as pointed out by Freud.
    The tiger knows no sorrow it kills instinctively.
    I first encountered the idea that humans only became self-aware a few thousand years ago a few decades ago, and I immediately discarded it as absurd, because it ignores the evidence that can be found in literature that pre-dates that, and from the evidence found by archaeologists.

    Just consider Gilgamesh. His saga is largely about himself as an individual and the conflict between that an larger issues.

    Then there are the pregnant Goddess images that go back as much as tens of thousands of years ago and ar similar of images that are only a couple of thousand years old, which suggests that people haven't changed much.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=preg...HaBrBXoQ7AkIKA
    Updated 02-19-2017 at 04:45 PM by PeterL
  7. Magnocrat's Avatar
    You can stretch words to cover all cases but you still have the problem of mans self - awareness to explain. Add to this his self judgement and deliberate control of his environment placing him beyond natural selection. The case for social Darwinism is debatable.
    Alfred Wallace produced his paradox which Darwin rejected.
    If stone aged man has a mind equal to modern man why has he got it since he does not need it. It could not have been developed from natural selection which merely fits us for survival.
    Steven Pinker believes Wallace was wrong but he has a job to get around the paradox in his
    book ' How the Mind Works' . I must confess its was a difficult book for me but I had a go at it.
    Pinker suggests since the mind was a result of natural selection it may have limitations.
  8. PeterL's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnocrat
    You can stretch words to cover all cases but you still have the problem of mans self - awareness to explain. Add to this his self judgement and deliberate control of his environment placing him beyond natural selection. The case for social Darwinism is debatable.
    Alfred Wallace produced his paradox which Darwin rejected.
    If stone aged man has a mind equal to modern man why has he got it since he does not need it. It could not have been developed from natural selection which merely fits us for survival.
    Steven Pinker believes Wallace was wrong but he has a job to get around the paradox in his
    book ' How the Mind Works' . I must confess its was a difficult book for me but I had a go at it.
    Pinker suggests since the mind was a result of natural selection it may have limitations.
    I hadn't thought of this problem in decades,, and I thank you for bringing it to my attention. I tend to agree with Wallace, but I would have to see his actual comments to know for sure. There are some related questions and assumptions that also need attention, including determining the reason for there to have been evolution at all.