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Red-Headed

Toadstools

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A summer downpour
flowering umbrellas -
glistening toadstools.


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  1. Buh4Bee's Avatar
    almost a haiku, but you are off one syllable in line two. You have 6, should be seven.
  2. Red-Headed's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by jersea
    almost a haiku, but you are off one syllable in line two. You have 6, should be seven.
    I often have this conversation with people who probably are not familiar with the fact that not all English speakers are American, or in fact speak American English.

    I will paste here a reply to someone I replied to earlier about this poem.

    Originally Posted by hillwalker
    It's only really a haiku if you count 'poems' as bi-syllabic and 'emptying' as tri-syllabic. Some might not.


    Some might. It must be my Black Country accent.

    Haiku (haiki?) are originally Japanese anyway & Japanese as a language uses far more than syllable counts, in the composition of haiku or senryu, compared to speakers of other languages, particularly Aryan Indo-European tongues.

    Many Asiatic languages as a whole have far more pronounced morae, which in some Asiatic languages also determines stress or timing in their phonetic structure, so to quibble about syllable (whether the onset, nucleus or coda parts) counts in this context, (Haiku in English) is essentially a bit meaningless.

    Quote: Originally Posted by hillwalker
    Your second example is definitely missing one syllable in the middle line (possibly two if 'flowering' is considered bi-syllabic).
    What fun!


    No it isn't. To me, anyway, 'umbrellas' has four distinct syllabic sounds & I would pronounce it as something like "um-ba-rell-erz". Although I would be tempted to call the labial 'ba' a mora as it is for me, essentially a partially sounded labial 'b' preceding a schwa (notwithstanding that the initial schwa in the word is the 'U') & which then re-emphasises the postalveolar consonant 'ell' in the plural noun umbrellas.

    Also 'flowering' has three distinct syllables to my Midlands ears. In fact, words like 'road', 'toad' & 'load' can have two syllables in Midland English. Well, if it was good enough for Shakespeare (a fellow Midlander) it's good enough for me LOL!

    I wonder if the Japanese have as many debates about what constitutes a haiku as English speakers do?

    That may clarify my position a bit ... *wink*
  3. Buh4Bee's Avatar
    First of all, Hillwalker isn't American, he's Welsh. So you are getting feedback from not only an American. I know he does not speak with an English accent. As far as having your own pronunciation system, it is wrong. If you know so much about speech pathology, you would know how to break words down properly. Umbrella has 3 syllables.
  4. Red-Headed's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by jersea
    First of all, Hillwalker isn't American, he's Welsh. So you are getting feedback from not only an American. I know he does not speak with an English accent. As far as having your own pronunciation system, it is wrong. If you know so much about speech pathology, you would know how to break words down properly. Umbrella has 3 syllables.
    How do you know what I sound like, an expert on Frisian/Mercian British English accents are we?

    I think not ...

    Quote Originally Posted by jersea
    Umbrella has 3 syllables.
    Oh the arrogance!

    American English isn't the only form of English. English is our language & Midlands/Mercian English is the closest to Anglo-Saxon as you can possibly get outside of the Icelandic mainland.

    Hillwalker is actually Scottish. Like I've said, I have a Black Country accent & for me umbrella has four distinct syllables. Just like road, toad & load have two syllables & tea, sea & pea are all pronounced 'tay', 'say' & 'pay'.



    Example of Black Country dialect
    Updated 07-30-2011 at 12:46 PM by Red-Headed (Trying to explain who Aynuk & Ayli are to the uncultured)
  5. Red-Headed's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by jersea
    I know he does not speak with an English accent.
    Please define an 'English' accent. Are we talking Geordie, Scouse, Mancunian, Lancastrian, Broads, Brummie, Black Country, West Country, Estuary, Cockney, Home Counties or received pronunciation?

    Answers on a postcard please, post to Limeyville, 1950s Stereotype Avenue, England.

  6. TheFifthElement's Avatar
    Ouch! Touchy aren't we? I'm English and umbrella has 3 syllables. Consult the OED. The Japanese wouldn't have any dispute about numbers of syllables as the Japanese language is syllabic anyway - the 'letters' are actually single syllable sounds. A-ri-ga-to is the same wherever you live in Japan. So if you're sticking with 'tradition' of the origin country, accent can't come into it as it really doesn't affect syllabic content in Japanese. Perhaps that's why they're so particular about it. If you read any haiku in the original Japanese they always follow the syllabic rule. They have other rules of course, which you no doubt know.

    For certainty on syllabic content, consult the dictionary. Or don't call it a haiku, call it haiku-esque. Does it really matter? Was it worth being so rude?
    Updated 07-30-2011 at 08:44 PM by Red-Headed
  7. Buh4Bee's Avatar
    I meant to say that Hillwalker doesn't speak with an American accent. And apologies to Hillwalker- He is Scottish. There is a huge difference.
  8. Red-Headed's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFifthElement
    Ouch! Touchy aren't we? I'm English and umbrella has 3 syllables. Consult the OED. The Japanese wouldn't have any dispute about numbers of syllables as the Japanese language is syllabic anyway - the 'letters' are actually single syllable sounds. A-ri-ga-to is the same wherever you live in Japan. So if you're sticking with 'tradition' of the origin country, accent can't come into it as it really doesn't affect syllabic content in Japanese. Perhaps that's why they're so particular about it. If you read any haiku in the original Japanese they always follow the syllabic rule. They have other rules of course, which you no doubt know.

    For certainty on syllabic content, consult the dictionary. Or don't call it a haiku, call it haiku-esque. Does it really matter? Was it worth being so rude?
    The OED only accepts received pronunciation. It is quite common in the Black Country to pronounce it as I do.

    Was it worth being so rude? Yes.

    Why? Because quite frankly I'm a bit bored with people like you & all of this hyper-corrective gibberish. In modern English it is technically incorrect to say 'It's me' (It is me). You should say 'It is I' because 'me' is the accusative & not the nominative case 'I' that is supposedly correct grammar.

    Does anyone outside of Malory or a Lord of the Rings movie say "It is I"? No they don't.

    Grammar is a convention & the English language is a rich & developing tapestry of dialects, nuances & interpretations. Most 'grammatical' rules were invented by 18th century grammarians who honestly believed English was a Latin descended language, it isn't. There is more Danish in English than either Latin or Norman French.

    I teach people who have special needs when it comes to reading & writing, I have found that even competent writers/readers will often use dialect when writing. It may be something simple such as writing 'them' instead of the grammatically correct 'those' or vice versa depending on context (by southern RP OED standards). When they inevitably ask me which is correct I invariably reply that it really a case of what the individual is happy with (as long as it isn't completely wrong).

    To criticise someone for writing in a form of their own dialect, even when they have explained their respective reasons for this is a bit immature & borders snobbery in my opinion.

    Please put me on ignore & never reply to one of my blogs again.

    Please ... (see how non-rude & polite I was there)

    P.S. There are definitely morae in the word 'A-ri-ga-to'. The Japanese themselves call them 表音文字 ( hyōon moji) I believe. Even some Indo-European languages have to be pronounced exactly, Russian being an example.
    Updated 07-31-2011 at 07:04 AM by Red-Headed (Grammar Nazis)
  9. Red-Headed's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by jersea
    I meant to say that Hillwalker doesn't speak with an American accent. And apologies to Hillwalker- He is Scottish. There is a huge difference.
    Good for you mate.
  10. Virgil's Avatar
    Wow, what a discussion. I have to support Red-Headed here. I have heard people insert that extra syllable. I'm pretty sure the people I heard it from had nothing to do with Midlands or any other English accent. I distinctly remember it growing up in Brooklyn.

    I checked the etymology and umbrella is a loan word from Italian, ombrella and ultimately from Latin, umbella.
    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=umbrella
    Perhaps it's the blurring of the Latin "be" syllable with the Italian word that caused some to pronounce it "umberella." I can see that happening.

    Very interesting. I'll have to listen carefully as people pronounce it.
  11. Red-Headed's Avatar
    Yeah, thanks. I know there are a lot of accent variations Stateside. This was exactly my point, even if I got a bit long-winded about it. The fact is we all have our own particular idiolect. It is naive to think that everyone reads the written word & 'hears' the same thing. This is one of the reasons that I don't pay too much attention to Classical prosody. Metre is sometimes in the ear of the beholder!

    Many American vowel sounds & speech patterns are not unlike East Midland & West Country English accents (according to Webster's the ultimate source of the American accent itself) & I have noticed that I tend to agree more with most American interpretations of prosody when it comes down to a dispute.

    My guess is that the 'flat' vowel sounds (particularly 'a') are more natural to my ears (as a Midlander) than Southern English. I pronounce the words 'bath', 'glass' & 'path' more or less as most Americans do. It is only in the south that the 'intrusive r' (ba-r-th, gla'r'ss etc) is really heard.

    It is often stated that Blake's 'Tyger' is one of the most famous examples of iambic pentameter in English. Yet I have spoken to many Americans online who are convinced the opening words 'Tyger Tyger' are trochees. I tend to hear them as that as well, especially when I actually recite the poem aloud.

    Language, especially the decoding of the written word is far more complex, rule-free & subjective than we actually like to think.

    Welcome to the crazy world of semiotic theory.