Joyce

[suitenoise314]

Reading The Dead.... the snow seems like a great symbollic aspect for Joyce. Im just having a hard time putting it together..snow on the Protestant statues, tree branches, etc.
anyone a Joyce expert?

[Timothy B]

If you've read the book YOU're a "joyce expert" as much as any one. What do you thinkt he snow stands for? coldness, lack of emotion, death, age, all of those sound possible to me.

Remember, Joyce was a Catholic, who in later years, referred to him self as an "apostate": someone who denies and turns from his religion.

Does that help at all? I have no idea/

[AbdoRinbo]

If you've read the book YOU're a "joyce expert" as much as any one. What do you thinkt he snow stands for? coldness, lack of emotion, death, age, all of those sound possible to me.

Remember, Joyce was a Catholic, who in later years, referred to him self as an "apostate": someone who denies and turns from his religion.

Does that help at all? I have no idea/

The snow in 'The Dead' can hardly represent 'death' itself. Take a look at the final paragraph: 'A few light taps upon the pane made him turn to the window. It had begun to snow again. He watched sleepily the flakes, silver and dark, falling obliquely against the lamplight. The time had come for him to set out on his journey westward. Yes, the newspapers were right: snow was general all over Ireland. It was falling on every part of the dark central plane, on the treeless hills, falling softly upon the Bog of Allen and, farther westward, softly falling into the dark mutinous Shannon waves. It was falling, too, upon every part of the lonely churchyard on the hill where Michael Furey lay buried. It lay thickly drifted on the crooked crosses and headstones, on the spears of the little gate, on the barren thorns. His soul swooned slowly as he heard the snow falling faintly through the universe and faintly falling, like the descent of their last end, upon all the living and the dead.' Here, the snow is falling on 'treeless hills', 'barren thorns', 'headstones', and on the grave of Michael Furey. The snow, in my opinion, represents a union of 'all the living and the dead.'

Another interesting riddle is this: what is the tapping that Gabriel hears on the window pane? Snow does not 'tap' when it hits glass. It is far too cold for the snow to be mixed with rain or sleet . . . it seems that much of what is going on in this passage is entirely subjective. Moreover, Gabriel has come from an Irish-Catholic culture . . . so there are religious undertones to what the narrative is showing us. We have here three very important religious symbols: 'crosses', 'spears', and 'thorns' . . . which are all associated with the crucifixion.

This is a very ambiguous passage. What does Gabriel mean by 'setting out on his journey westward'? 'Journeying westward' is a classic euphemism for death. Does Gabriel decide, finally, to visit Galway and tap into his cultural heritage? Or does the shock of Gretta's tale of poor Michael Furey cause him to experience a spiritual decay? Perhaps he does in fact die. It is splendidly vague, in the typical Joycean fashion. I savor every word of this passage.

[AbdoRinbo]

Reading The Dead.... the snow seems like a great symbollic aspect for Joyce. Im just having a hard time putting it together..snow on the Protestant statues, tree branches, etc.
anyone a Joyce expert?

I highly recommend reading the Richard Elleman biography of James Joyce, if you have a month or so to spare. It's longer than anything Joyce had ever written, but, with the grace of Ellemann's knowledge and articulation, the bar for written biographies was finally raised to a whole new level.

[suitenoise314]

i think ive concluded that the snow and west can mean the same thing.. although I am not totally positive whether Gabrielle is ready to go westward and discover his own passion or has completley lost hope.

If you watch the John Houston movie.. the hotel scene after Greta tells Gabrielle about Fury..a naration begins (the first in the movie) and the visuals are all very representative of death.

just another perspective i suppose.

[AbdoRinbo]

If you watch the John Houston movie.. the hotel scene after Greta tells Gabrielle about Fury..a naration begins (the first in the movie) and the visuals are all very representative of death.

just another perspective i suppose.

If the snow is indeed symbolic of death, then why is it falling on 'the lonely chuchyard on the hill where Michael Furey lay buried'? 'Death' falling on 'the dead' is redundant; and, moreover, it doesn't serve any artistic purpose . . . but the snow ('general all over Ireland') as the union of 'all the living and the dead' does seem to complement the underlying tension between 'dead' history (or tradition) and the 'living' present. From Gabriel's perspective, Michael Furey has had more of an impact on him in death than he ever could have had in life. The dead do seem to come alive at times, don't they?

[suitenoise314]

If you watch the John Houston movie.. the hotel scene after Greta tells Gabrielle about Fury..a naration begins (the first in the movie) and the visuals are all very representative of death.

just another perspective i suppose.

If the snow is indeed symbolic of death, then why is it falling on 'the lonely chuchyard on the hill where Michael Furey lay buried'? 'Death' falling on 'the dead' is redundant; and, moreover, it doesn't serve any artistic purpose . . . but the snow ('general all over Ireland') as the union of 'all the living and the dead' does seem to complement the underlying tension between 'dead' history (or tradition) and the 'living' present. From Gabriel's perspective, Michael Furey has had more of an impact on him in death than he ever could have had in life. The dead do seem to come alive at times, don't they?

"general all over Ireland" is in some ways a metaphor for a "universal communion"..everyone is going to die; Greta, Aunt Julia, Gabrielle himself, just like Fury, Gabrielle's mother, and the opera singers mentioned over dinner. but also, I cant help but question that metaphor because it doesnt snow everywhere, on global terms. Joyce's method was to write about something particular and then one can come to terms with the universal.
maybe the snow is representative of hope and the future considering this short story was written in tribute to Ireland.

[dosty_idiot]

to me, i first look to the actual title of the book. i don't think it is a coincidence that the title is "The Dead." Gabriel is a very egotistical man; however, he has been beaten down litle by little through out his aunts' dinner. it is not until he looks out and sees the snow "general all over ireland," and "realizes that snow, like death, is the great unifier, that it falls, in the beautiful closing image 'upon all the living and the dead.'" Everything about the story supports the title of the work -namely inevitable death, which comes to the poor, as well as arrogant men who believe they are superior to even their wives.



and AbdoRinbo, what do you mean by "Or does the shock of Gretta's tale of poor Michael Furey cause him to experience a spiritual decay?" --very interesting.[/quote]

[AbdoRinbo]

If you watch the John Houston movie.. the hotel scene after Greta tells Gabrielle about Fury..a naration begins (the first in the movie) and the visuals are all very representative of death.

just another perspective i suppose.

If the snow is indeed symbolic of death, then why is it falling on 'the lonely chuchyard on the hill where Michael Furey lay buried'? 'Death' falling on 'the dead' is redundant; and, moreover, it doesn't serve any artistic purpose . . . but the snow ('general all over Ireland') as the union of 'all the living and the dead' does seem to complement the underlying tension between 'dead' history (or tradition) and the 'living' present. From Gabriel's perspective, Michael Furey has had more of an impact on him in death than he ever could have had in life. The dead do seem to come alive at times, don't they?

"general all over Ireland" is in some ways a metaphor for a "universal communion"..everyone is going to die; Greta, Aunt Julia, Gabrielle himself, just like Fury, Gabrielle's mother, and the opera singers mentioned over dinner. but also, I cant help but question that metaphor because it doesnt snow everywhere, on global terms. Joyce's method was to write about something particular and then one can come to terms with the universal.
maybe the snow is representative of hope and the future considering this short story was written in tribute to Ireland.

The fact that it does not 'snow everywhere' does nothing to undermine the potency of Joyce's metaphor; after all, the snow is 'falling through the Universe'.

The dinner (just like the Christmas dinner that would later occur in 'A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man') is a political and social metonymy of Ireland (metonymy because the whole of Irish culture is being symbolized by one portion of its society). Though Joyce is taking a more sympathetic approach towards his homeland, it cannot rightfully be called a 'tribute'.

There are clues everywhere pointing to a notion which Joyce must have understood: that the hospitality of Ireland--though one of its most charming features--does nothing to help the Irish. In fact, in many ways it glosses over the conflicts, tensions, and repressed desires of its people. Gabriel has an air of calmness to those he encounters, but he is caught off guard, like a pin penetrating unexpecting flesh, three times throughout the story. He is imputed for his condescending generosity, he is attacked for betraying his country's cause, and he is harrowed by the tale of Michael Furey's apparent suicide.

We are only granted access to Gabriel's mind, and it is here that we witness an amazing revelation: 'The Dead' shows us a certain history in Ireland, quintessential of all history; and, since all history is memory and all memory is dead like the ghost of Michael Furey that haunts Gabriel's soul, it is the ghost of history--as Joyce believed--that makes up the present (which flows into the future itself and becomes history).

In 'Ulysses', Stephen Dedalus remarks that God is 'a shout in the street', something completely unexpected (contrary to the Protestant belief that all history is a movement towards the manifestation of God--in other words, that all history comes from the future, where its purpose is revealed). Moreover, what we would call artistic inspiration is nothing more than a dismemberment, reconstruction and recirculation of all that history that has led up to the present moment. This is why 'The Dead' cannot be a tale of hope because it is not only living for the past that Joyce critiques, but also those who dwell on the future (like the monks who sleep in their tombs, patiently awaiting death).

Somewhere in 'The Dead', of course, there is a message, and I think it is this: Michael Furey may lie rotting in his grave, but it is Gabriel to whom the title 'The Dead' refers to. In the end we don't know what happens to him, but throughout the tale Gabriel's mind is haunted by one memory or another until he is completely broken. He will not accept the present for what it is, so he insists on dwelling in the past. Joyce, the profound humanist, has lifted the veil from our eyes and shown us life in all of its captivating magnificence.

[AbdoRinbo]

and AbdoRinbo, what do you mean by "Or does the shock of Gretta's tale of poor Michael Furey cause him to experience a spiritual decay?" --very interesting.[/quote]

A spiritual decay would be tantamount to nihilism, which might be the final outcome for Gabriel. The final passage offers no certitude, but it is equally plausible that Gabriel was sapped of any will to live that he might have had. Unfortunately, in 'Ulysses' Gabriel appears for a brief moment having undergone neither death nor subversion. As always, Joyce offers us that clownish touch of irony.

[dosty_idiot]

AbdoRinbo, I will concede you your point. Maybe Nihilism is too far, though. Nevertheless, you've made very valid and insightful arguments. Well taken.

[AbdoRinbo]

AbdoRinbo, I will concede you your point. Maybe Nihilism is too far, though. Nevertheless, you've made very valid and insightful arguments. Well taken.

Aw, you flatter me.