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[Margot]

I love French history and reading about the musketeers in Dumas' novels and he is really historically accurate, (I know this becuase I'm a history freak and I have no life), but anyway, I have a few things to say about your comment.<br>

[margot]

I love reading about French history and Dumas' novels and I must say he is very historically accurate, (I know this because I'm a history freak and I have no life), but anyway, I also have a few things to say about Dumas' musketeers. Like I said, it's very historically accurate. That's why I don't see anything especially extraordinary about these men. Yes, they're brave and honorable but there are a lot of brave idiots out there. And what about the way they treat their lackeys? Of course, they don't include this in the movies. OK, beatings, threats, making Grimaud eat paper and risk his life so they can eat breakfast on some bastien, what the hell is that about? And the way they treat women, Ok, I know Milady was psycho but maybe that was because she was traumatized from being attacked by her ephebiophile husband when she was sixteen! Yes, Athos is the honorable and brave musketeer, and obviously Dumas' favorite, but is kinda weird and violent, I mean, threatening to cut off people's ears, etc. Kinda freaking me out there. It's also funny how ridiculously classist they are, i.e. having a cow because their horses aren't spiffy and worried people won't recognize them as folks of "quality". Who cares? French nobles cared in the seventeenth century. I know. And that's what they are. Sexist, classist men who aren't altogether that pleasant or out of the ordinary when it comes to the society and time in which they lived. You might say that we shouldn't judge them by today's standards because things were different back then. True. That's why there's nothing extraordinary about them. They just happen to be people lucky enough to be born into the right class and the right gender.<br>But it's still fun reading about them. Send my love to Messieurs Bazin, Grimaud, Mousqueton, and Planchet. (And since Dumas never describes their physical attributes, I hereby declare that they are all gorgeous.)

[Margot]

Yes!!!!! OK!!! Finally, someone who takes a critical view of this book, and thinks it was bizarre and disturbing that a main character stripped his WIFE and hung her naked from a tree to die. I don't know about other people, but that kind of freaked me out. Yeah.

[Margot]

And what's with making Grimaud eat the letter from Lord de Winter whatever his name was? I mean, you can just burn it. But no! Let's make Grimaud eat it because we're bizarre and we have nothing better to do than torture our lackeys! And what if that ink was toxic? That kinda bothers me.

[margot]

Also, is anyone bothered by the fact that Athos bets Grimaud when they're gambling with those Englishmen? Um, Grimaud is a person. And then when Athos loses his saddle crap or whatever, he suggests betting Planchet. I found that a little annoying.

[daniel]

I find that very disturbing too, but i have a question. Are Margot and margot different people, or are you just forgetting to capitalize? Just wondering.

[Margot]

It's the same person. C'est moi, Margot or margot. I dont' really care. But thanks for responding!

[deni]

People, people! What are you talking about? Would you stop thinking 20th cnetury mentality and go back to that time? And wold you not be bleeding hearts about everything? This bookis one of the best books ever written. You have NO RIGHT to judge it because of your hatefulness for great works of art. Gimaud and planchet and the other servants were treated badly because they were SERVANTS. They accepted to have a master, much like dogs. They had NO CHARACTER, which made their masters use them however they wanted.The french aristocracy employed people without character to be their servants. These servants were treated badly sometimes because their masters showed their superiority. Even then, however, through most of the book, especially at the end, when they were used to each other, they regarded their servants as FRIENDS, not just servants. As for the hanging of that psycho killer milady, dont feel sorry for her. Athos, a man of character, hung her because he understood what the devil she was... back then, a woman who cheated on her husband or who had made a crime worth the mark of the fleur de lis was considered a villain... In our day, it would be as if she had a big nazi sign (swastika) right on her forehead. That's how shunned she would be. This also impacted Athos' character, who was bound by the church with such a person. That meant his SOUL was contaminated, in a way. That's why he faked his death. As for the horse, D'artagnan needed that money. Badly. How would you like to be cast into the world alone, with nothing but a friggin yellow horse??? Oh and, I forgot, since they werent absolutely without character like their faithful servants, they wanted to be recognized as nobility. In the France of old, a man's character had to be represented in everything he did, over and over and over. They hadto look good, they had to be confident, brave, and they had to have lackeys. Oh and, these SOLDIERS, are not the marines of today. Soldiers back then were almost regarded as nobility because of their bravery. They had to have courage to join the army. They were not just given a scholarship or something like it is done today. That's my opinion. Just dont be friggin bleedin' hearts about everything, or else just go read a disney book or something.

[deni]

oh and, he does not rape lady de winter.

[michelle and margot]

o.k. first of all just because they're servants doesn't give these stupid noble jerks the right to treat them like crap. and as for saying that they had a choice that is so wrong. Servants were born into their class and station and had no choice as to what profession they could be. you think they actually want to eat paper and clean a bunch of chamber pots? i don't think so. and as for them having no character well duh Dumas was a classist too and didn't give them any character. Because it is a great work of art it needs to be analyzed. just because it is considered a classic doesn't mean that it doesn't deserve criticism. and you have to admit that they fall directly into the perfect standards of a typical upper class french male. if the servants were okay with everything and were so buddy-buddy with their friends then why did they have a french revolution. obviously something was wrong there. as to Milady she did not cheat on him, if you read the novel carefully, she stole something and seduced a monk before they were married. I understand that in that society and time period he would be dishonored and so he hung her. but why naked, what is with that? so then she becomes a super ambitious woman and poisons people, which is not excusable, but i am sure she suffered some psychological damage from the experience of her mentally imbalanced husband!! and you have to admit he expresses some violent tendencies. not that reading about musketeers isn't entertaining, it is and that's why we read the book. but we don't think the musketeers are the ideal end all be all of hero behavior. they're great for their time period and they stick together. as to the less privileged groups i.e. the majority of society, they tend to get short shrift in dumas books.peasants are cool too and maybe, and this is some constructive criticism the author could give them a little more humanity. i know they're in this subjected position but it doesn't mean they're not real people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br>

[Margot]

But I can totally understand why the musketeers would want lackeys. They're very convenient. If I had one, I'd make him go to my English class for me where the teacher is about as psycho and emotionally volatile as milady! And write my term paper.

[Margot]

(Sing to the tune of "Cruella Deville")<br><br>The Comte de la Fere<br>He's losing his hair<br>He'll pull out his sword, and he'll give you a scare<br>the Comte de, the Comte de la Fere!

[Margot]

Oh, yeah, Deni, I don't hate great works of art. Haven't you ever read Marx's Communist Manifesto: "The history of the world has been the history of class struggles."

[Deni]

Hey! Chill out, margot! Seriously. The musketeers were great men, valiant, honourable, and possessing all the qualities of a gentleman at the time. They had servants and treated them very badly because the servants were the lower class. As you said, they cleaned the dirtiest of places and did stuff like that. Of course, this would cause them to be seen as people with very little character, and that is not because of Dumas. If you accepted to do all this, you would be a weak person even in the real world. A man without character has a master, whether it is obvoius or not, often even in our modern times. Back then, people like that would become servants. They would not like to do all those things, but, if they were truly people of character and of some value, they would choose another profession. They chose to serve people. They are then treated badly because their master reminds them who is the boss so that they may not stray away. In fact, for most of the time, the musketeers were nice to their servants. I really think you are being very unfair to the characters that have been admired and loved by so many people around the world. I understand criticizm, but this is really not fair. That is like saying that electricity should never have been invented because some people are electrocuted and die by it. Dont always look at the bad parts of it, especially if what you are criticizing is fairly ridiculous.

[Delon]

Your teacher wouldn't perchance be named Joerger (pronounced yur-gur), would she?

[Athos]

Thank you, Deni. You couldn't be more right. But you spelled Grimaud wrong, and since I don't let him talk, I thought I'd tell you for him.

[Margot]

But you still have to admit that there is the slightest possibility that the lackeys are good-looking, too. Because the musketeers are good-looking, supposedly, and Dumas never describes the lackeys' looks.<br>Poor servants. (sigh) Guess they'll have to wait another century to have their day.<br>I'm sorry if my friend and I have scared you with our rabid peasant-lovingness. But you see, they always get short-shrift, it seems. We love the musketeers, too, or else we wouldn't visit this site, especially sweet, loving Athos, who with a little therapy, could probably enjoy an normal relationship with a woman. But the musketeers have such a classic look. I mean, c'mon, it's flawless, the mustache, the sword, the flowy musketeer uniform thing. And I almost forgot, the totally awesome hat with a feather in it. If you watch Pirates of the Caribbean, Orlando Bloom really looks like a musketeer at the end of the movie, and he looks so good! <br>And no, I'm not a communist, sorry if any of you lovely responders are disappointed. I just read a lot of weird crap. I've also read the Three Musketeers like 5 billion times in French and English and seen almost every film version, too. Yes, I am critical but no one can accuse me of not liking those musketeers. Un pour tous, et tous pour un or one for all and all for one, my dears! Write back, you guys are so much fun, especially you, Deni!

[Iris]

I think that by killing Milady, Athos is just as cruel as she is. and one other question, who is Raoule's(sp?) mother???

[MICHELLE]

UMM WHAT'S WITH THE ELECTRICITY COMMENT THAT DOESN'T EVEN MAKE SENSE. AND BY THE WAY JUST BECAUSE SERVANTS WERE SERVANTS DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY WERE WEK. IT'S NOT LIKE IN aMERICA WERE YOU CAN MOVE FREELY IN SOCIAL STATUS. SERVANTS COULDN'T DO THAT. THEY WERE BORN INTO THAT POSITION AND WERE TOLD IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO MOVE UP. WHEN EVER THEY TRIED TO SOCIETY WOULDN'T LET THEM. IT WAS BELIEVED THAT IT WAS YOUR GOD GIVEN PLACE IN SOCIETY AND IF YOU ATTEMPTED TO MOVE OUT OF IT IT WAS LIKE YOU WERE SINNING. AND THEN SOME MUSKETEER WOULD PROBABLY TRY AND STOP YOU BY THREATENING TO KILL YOU WITH HIS SWORD AND YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT BECAUSE THEY WOULDN'T KNOW HOW TO FENCE BECAUSE NO ONE WOULD SHOW A PERSON OF LOWER CLASS HOW TO FENCE! YOU KNOW WHY BECAUSE THE NOBILITY WERE CLASIST, ELITIST PARASITICAL BLOBS!!!! SO HOW YOU CAN SAY THEY'RE VALIANT I DONT KNOW, STUPID MAYBE BUT NOT VALIANT.AND THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING FOR THEMSELVES IT'S LIKE THEY'RE HELPLESS CHILDREN AND HAVE TO MAKE THEYR'E LACKEYS DO EVERYTHING FOR THEM. DON'T MISTAKE BRAVERY FOR STUPIDITY FOR BRAVERY JUST BECAUSE THEY GO ON THE BASTION TO EAT BREAKFAST AND TALK. AND THEN THEY MAKE gRIMAUD CARRY THE BASKET OF FOOD AND WHEN gRIMAUD REFUSES BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT TO DIE9UNDERSTANDABLY0 ATHOS, LOVELY ATHOS PUTS A PISTOL TO HIS HEAD AND THREATENS TO KILL. SO BASICALLY GRIMAUD HAS TO CHOOSE BETWEEN DYING ON THE BASTION CARRYING THEIR CRAP BECAUSE THEY CAN'T DO IT THEMSELVES OR DIE BY ATHO'S HAND. AND YOU SAY SAY BEING A SERVANT IS EASY AND ONLY WEAK PEOPLE DO IT.

[MICHELLE]

WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF YOU WERE GRIMAUD. OH WAIT BUT YOU'RE NOT WEAK ARE YOU.<br><br>BEST REGARDS,<br>THE BLEEDING HEARTS

[Margot]

Raoul's mother is, I think, Madame de Chevreuse, remember the friend of Queen Anne who got exiled and was Aramis' mistress in The Three Musketeers. You find out more about her in Twenty Years After.

[Liza]

Has everyone forgotten that milady killed Constance Bonacieux [Chpt 63]. Cold-blooded, he loves you therefore I hate you- Murder.<br><br>No matter what else in the book you may or may not like, Milady de Winter's execution can be justified as punishment for that crime.<br><br>She's a *****. By choice, because no matter what happens in life, no one can take away our right to chose, even if the only choice is death.<br><br>Don't defend her.

[michelle]

i would just like to clarify that we are in no way defending Milady. you're right, what she did was wrong and horrible as well, but what i have a problem with is how everyone is condoning and praising Athos's action as valiant and honourable. Milady was a murderer and so was athos so why is Athos far superior and just in what he has done while Milady is rightly executed.<br><br>Best Regard,<br>THE BLEEDING HEARTS (Michelle and Margot)

[carles (España)]

I read this book many years ago, so i don't have the details fresh in my memory. I enjoyed the story and couln't put the book down until finished.<br>Anyway I strongly dismiss considering D'Artagnan a heroe or even a gentleman as films do. He rapes Lady de Winter, so it's not so strange that she hates him savagely. OK she left her husband, one of the musketeers but that 's not reason for the four bunch to hang her from a branch of a tree. No jury, no tribunal needed(And they don't do that because of being a spy but for the treason to her husband.)<br>The glorious facts start when D'Artagnan sells his father's old horse, no matter his daddy asks him to keep it in consideration of the services the animal had given him. As you can imagine all this is not depicted in films. <br>Dumas maybe thoght that were the ethics of people in XVIII century, was he right or not i don't know .<br>Saludos