Jane Eyre: The Age Gap

[Laura Clarke]

Hi guys,

This is something I've always wondered about in Jane Eyre: the 20-year age gap. When I first read the book, the ending was sort of spoiled for me - I knew that Jane and Rochester would fall for each other and get married. So when I got to the part when you learn their ages (their early conversations) - man, I was shocked. Especially because Rochester kept on stressing how "he was old enough to be her father" and kept saying how innocent and inexperienced she was. It just seemed weird to think that they would ever have any sort of romantic relationship. And yet, once Jane starts to fall in love with him, and Rochester starts calling her Jane instead instead of Miss Eyre (it was a subtle change, but I think it made a huge difference), I really started viewing their interactions in a completely different light. I completely forgot about the age difference, and became engrossed in their relationship.

And honestly, as the story developed, I really could not recognize any "significant" differences between them caused by age. I mean sure, Jane is pretty naive compared to Rochester, but in general, I never saw any real "problem" caused by their age gap. Why is this? Was a large disparity in ages more prevalent in those times? (I didn't think so because of Miss Fairfax's words though) Or is it just that Jane is "wise beyond their years?" (I guess her rough child made her personality more mature - and Rochester does seem a bit immature) Or is age simply not a factor in true love?

What do you guys think?

[kev67]

I have wondered about the age gap myself. I suppose Rochester probably would not have inherited Thornfield until he was a bit older, especially as he was a second son iirc. It would also take some time for him to pick up all that 'past': his business affairs in the West Indies, his courtship and marriage to Bertha, the marriage disintegrating and her going mad, him touring around Europe and possibly fathering illegitimate children along the way. If Charlotte Bronte wanted to reduce the age gap, she would have had to have written about ten years more back story for Jane.

Another thing is that Jane does not seem to think she will live very long. iirc Bertha was described as having a strong constitution so would probably live a long time. Jane seems to have a weak constitution. iirc her cousin Diana doubts she could last very long in India. I was surprised by this sense of mortality, but considering Charlotte Bronte's mother died while young, her two elder sisters when children, and her brother and sisters maybe sickening by that point, maybe it was natural for her to doubt Jane would reach 40. Rochester was older but he was strong, so maybe they have similar life expectancies.

[mona amon]

I feel the age difference actually adds to the erotic appeal - the predatory, older, dissolute, man of the world in pursuit of the young girl who, up till that point has lived almost like a nun. As the innkeeper says in chapter 36, "Mr. Rochester was about forty, and this governess not twenty; and you see, when gentlemen of his age fall in love with girls, they are often like as if they were bewitched." Rochester falls for Jane because she's a fresh, innocent young thing, completely different from Bertha, and Jane falls for him partly because of his experience and knowledge of the world, his power and so on. As Kev says, it is important to the plot that Rochester has so much back story, while Jane is a clean slate. It is all on the verge of being icky or scandalous, but Bronte pulls it off. And Laura, I think you are right that part of the reason it works is that Jane is wise beyond her years. Sometimes she seems more worldly wise than Rochester, as when she keeps him at arms' length during the engagement period, and when she refuses to become his mistress. Also, she always describes him as strong and athletic, and when Mrs. Fairfax tells her Rochester could almost be her father, she replies indignantly, "he is nothing like my father! No one, who saw us together, would suppose it for an instant. Mr. Rochester looks as young, and is as young, as some men at five-and-twenty."

[Ecurb]

"Fifty Shades of Gray" informs us that women are turned on by rich, abusive, older men. My opinion: they should let Bertha go and lock Rochester in some attic.

[Laura Clarke]

Haha... very funny Ecurb - I'm tempted to revert to my previous argument with you...

[Laura Clarke]

kev - Oh, that really makes sense - I never thought about their life expectancies, or about the necessity of Rochester's backstory. That certainly clarifies why Bronte added it in the first place (Just had an "Aha moment" :))

And mona, I'll admit, it does add to its appeal from a reader's standpoint... ;)

Still, I've always been intrigued by the sort of "lack of problems" presented from this age gap. Its just that society in general seems to frown upon it so much - And Bronte seems to emphasize all the potential issues between Jane and Rochester's relationship (wealth, stations, independence, etc.) except age - does she do this on purpose? I mean, I guess maybe age sort of classifies into the broader categories of Jane and Rochester's disparity, but I still thought it was weird how Bronte never really presented it an obstacle (other then the judgments of surrounding characters - I never thought that this counted as one though, considering how creative Bronte was in presenting the other problems...)

I've been thinking about this a lot... Do you think it might be because age can't really be changed? Now that I think about it, all of the major "inequality issues" between Rochester and Jane that Bronte stressed were solved in the end (Jane became Rochester's equal in wealth and station from her inheritance, she gained her independence, etc.) But their age difference, being an unchangeable fact, maybe wasn't emphasized because it couldn't really be developed into anything?

[prendrelemick]

The age gap is significant. To begin with it is almost an Austenian device. Young Jane is to be taken up and looked after by Rochester. But their roles are reversed at the end. I think the age gap is there to make that final role reversal more striking.

[Jackson Richardson]

All Jane Austen's heroines marry someone older. I seem to remember this was quite standard from reading Lawrence Stone. A man had to have built up financial security. A woman was ready for marriage as soon as she was fertile.

[bounty]

ive read enough austen, and jane eyre (not to mention Lolita, though the dynamic was different, and anne rampling's Belinda where the forbidden and illegal age difference is the central part of the story) to wonder about how/why social mores, and laws, change, and to use literature as a place to start those conversations.

came back after I was reminded of the laurie king mary Russell/Sherlock holmes series. has anyone read those?

[Ecurb]

I'm no expert on the average age of marriage in either Regency or Victorian England. My knowledge of the matter comes strictly from reading novels. It seems to me that most gentile young ladies came out when they were 16-18. Lady Catherine wonders at Lydia being "out" at 15, and Elizabeth admits that it might be too young (as well as strange because the older daughters are still on the market). The beauties probably nabbed husbands in their first or second season, and so did rich girls. Elizabeth Bennet was 20, Jane was probably 21 or 22. Fanny, Catherine, and Marianne were all engaged as teenagers.

I just read "Mr Wortle's School" (Trollope -- 1870 or so) and a 17 year old girl falls in love with a 19 year old boy. It's considered normal for the girl, but the boy has to finish Oxford before he can consider marriage. I vaguely remember that married men weren't allowed at Oxford or Cambridge, or maybe it was just at some colleges. I think that went for the "fellows" as well as the undergrads. In Austen, Henry Tilney, Edmund, Edward, Darcy, and Bingley all seem to be in their twenties, Wentworth around 30 (just a couple of years older than Anne) and Knightley and Brandon are still younger than Rochester (as well as being less steeped in wickedess).

Also, people dies with alarming regularity in those days, so there were plenty of young, attractive widows and widowers running around, like the widow who wins Phinneas Finn's heart in "The Eustace Diamonds". Also, I wonder about the sex life of rich men who don't marry until they are close to 30. Certainly they aren't completely abstinent, are they? Or (from their experiences at Eton) did they relieve the hormonal urges with other men?

IN Austen's time, England was still a pastoral country, with inherited land being the main source of wealth (although Sir Thomas had his plantations). That was all changing, though, and with the changing economy came new outlooks on marriage.

[Ecurb]

More on marriage: I studied cultural anthropology in grad school, and "marriage rules" are a theme of this discipline, because, like in England in the 19th century, marriage was a key factor in the economic and political functioning of many societies. One Polynesian culture (I forget the name) demanded that all females should be married. Girl babies were married at birth, although they didn't live with (or consumate their marriages with) their husbands until they were teenagers. Their parents would marry them off to men gaining economic and political power -- 30 year olds. So by the time these husbands lived with their wives, they were pushing 50. As a result, there were many widows in this society. If a 70-year-old husband died, his widow might still by in her 30s of 40s. Like girl babies, the widows had to remarry immediately. But who wouyld marry them? Generally, they married young men who could not afford young wives, or who had married babies, and were waiting for them to grow up.


England may have been a bit like this. Girls (like Marianne Dashwood or Jane Eyre) who married men 20 years older than themselves might become young widows, with economic power and political authority denied many women. It wasn't all that bad a deal.

[Laura Clarke]

The age gap is significant. To begin with it is almost an Austenian device. Young Jane is to be taken up and looked after by Rochester. But their roles are reversed at the end. I think the age gap is there to make that final role reversal more striking.

Oh, good point. I didn't think about that, but yeah, the age gap certainly helps emphasize that role reversal.

[Laura Clarke]

I'm no expert on the average age of marriage in either Regency or Victorian England. My knowledge of the matter comes strictly from reading novels. It seems to me that most gentile young ladies came out when they were 16-18.

Interesting. While the marriages of young girls does seem to be a recurring theme in most novels, none of them really jumped out at me as much as Jane Eyre though. I think it's because Bronte really emphasizes how inexperienced Jane was. Like take Blanche Ingrim for example. I believe she was 23 ish or so, about only 5 years older than young Jane. Yet, she doesn't seem "too young" for Rochester (although he is 15 years her senior) because she was experienced in terms of flirting, and knowledge of the benefits of marriage. Jane, though, being extremely naive, appears significantly younger.

Even Lydia from Pride and Prejudice, though being very young, coquettish, and just... dumb, in some ways seems "older" than Jane, because she is simply more socially experienced. I mean, Jane is certainly much more mature, due to the hardships she endured throughout her childhood, but in terms of social situations, Jane in pretty clueless and innocent. Lydia, on the other hand, having grown up in a household where marriage is greatly emphasized (like most of the young ladies in these novels), is much more aware of the financial and social benefits of marriage.

[Jackson Richardson]

Tangent - the fellows of Oxford and Cambridge colleges up until the mid C19 had to be unmarried and clergymen of the Church of England. (The head of houses could be married. A fellow marrying would have to resign his fellowship, but he could hope to be given a college living, ie become priest of a church of which the college was patron.)

'Nother tangent - I wonder what the case was with working class men? I imagine that since they were not going to gain any further financial security, they had no reason to delay marriage.

Final tangent - It is so easy to overlook how very young Lydia is. A few months earlier and nowadays Wickham would be accused of paedophilia.

[petaflop]

Then, as now, it wasn't age so much as what today we call "life stages."

I think because of Rochester's previous life, he was in the same "stage" as Jane in terms of being ready to settle down and start a family.

That, along with their independence, would lop off most of the problems we associate with age gaps in marriage.

[Ecurb]

Then, as now, it wasn't age so much as what today we call "life stages."

I think because of Rochester's previous life, he was in the same "stage" as Jane in terms of being ready to settle down and start a family.

That, along with their independence, would lop off most of the problems we associate with age gaps in marriage.

Who is "we"? Life stages? Wasn't Rochester supposed to settle down and start a family many years ago when he married Bertha? Didn't siring Adele give him some obligation to settle down and start a family? Perhaps he just wasn't quite ready for that particular "life stage", poor dear.

There was madness in Bertha's family, so, despite her dissolute habits, perhaps her madness is not due to syphilis. Even then Rochester may well have contracted the disease from French courtesans. In any event, Bertha's insanity and Rochester's promiscuity portend that Jane's marriage will very possibly lead her down the same road that Bertha followed, a descent into incurable disease and madness.

[Laura Clarke]

Who is "we"? Life stages? Wasn't Rochester supposed to settle down and start a family many years ago when he married Bertha? Didn't siring Adele give him some obligation to settle down and start a family? Perhaps he just wasn't quite ready for that particular "life stage", poor dear.

Well, I think Rochester was ready to settle down and start a family, but obviously because Bertha was mad, he couldn't do so. This prevented him from entering that "life stage." And we don't know if Adele was his kid or not, but do we know that he does not consider her his child, and only took her in because he felt that it was the "right" thing to do. Although he agreed to feed, clothe, and care for her, he felt no obligation to treat her as family. Also, I think he still felt inherent bitterness towards Adele because of her mother. Not one of my favorite aspects of Rochester's personality, but it certainly makes sense (Rochester thinks that she is the daughter of the man Celine cheated on him with - It is certainly not Adele's fault, and this does not justify Rochester's behavior, but I might be able to see where he is coming from). I do think that Rochester might have slightly warmed up to Adele after he met Jane though, because I think Jane helped him view Adele in a bit of a different light.

So, I don't think that Rochester wasn't "ready" for that life stage. He just had certain obstacles, both physical and mental, that kept him from settling down.

[mona amon]

Youth is in itself an attractive thing, so at least for Rochester Jane's age is far from being a problem, whatever life stage he was in. Being attracted to her youthfulness makes him normal, rather than creepy, in my opinion, and when Jane is telling him about what a cold fish St John Rivers is, so unlike him, she complains that, "He found nothing attractive in me, not even youth, just a few useful mental points." Jane and Rochester are soul mates, and differences in age, class, fortune and so on simply do not matter. Rochester calls her his "equal and his likeness" long before she inherits her uncle's fortune.

As for Adele, I think he's very kind to her. True, he does not treat her like a daughter, but he does not for a moment believe she's his child. As he tells Jane, "Pilot is more like me than she is", and when Jane examines Adele closely for something to prove a relationship, she fails to find anything. In those pre- DNA test days, that is all they had to go on with.

[Laura Clarke]

Youth is in itself an attractive thing, so at least for Rochester Jane's age is far from being a problem, whatever life stage he was in. Being attracted to her youthfulness makes him normal, rather than creepy, in my opinion, and when Jane is telling him about what a cold fish St John Rivers is, so unlike him, she complains that, "He found nothing attractive in me, not even youth, just a few useful mental points." Jane and Rochester are soul mates, and differences in age, class, fortune and so on simply do not matter. Rochester calls her his "equal and his likeness" long before she inherits her uncle's fortune.

Yes, I think the Jane and Rochester were most certainly soul-mates. Even their age, I realize now, seems to be complimentary to their relationship. However, the one thing that has always confused/bothered me was in their first conversation, when Rochester says that he is "old enough to be her father." I mean, I get that they are similar and compatible in terms of their stages of maturity, but this statement immediately seems to shout, "No romantic relationship is going to start here - keep looking!" In fact, it seems to completely contradict Rochester's actual thoughts. We learn later in the story (the part when he begs Jane to stay) that he was sort of interested in her from the start. And yet, that comment seemed to downright contradict any romantic feelings he could have had - comparing yourself to a father-like object really does not show romantic interest. Was Rochester subconsciously trying to hide/smother his feelings because of Bertha? Or is this just more of the "Rochester" way of speaking? (He does seem to enjoy expressing his superiority in this chapter in terms of experience - was adding the "father" metaphor just a thoughtless addition to this?)

Once again, there is no question of his love for Jane - but I do think that this was an interesting beginning...

[mona amon]

Well, for one thing, we do not know if Rochester was thinking of a romantic relationship with her at this early stage, even if he was attracted to her. I think that only happened after she rescued him from the fire. In the first two conversations they are both rather awkward with each other, at least some of the time. They are just getting to know each other. Jane gives very proper and careful answers, trying to impress, but at times she lets down her guard, like when she tells him she does not think he's handsome. If I remember correctly, when Rochester tells her he is old enough to be her father, he is saying so in an attempt to apologize and excuse himself for being rude and ordering her about.

The age gap between the two never bothered me, probably because I was about 10 when I first read the book, and both Jane and Rochester were just 'grown-ups' to me.

[Ecurb]

The age gap never bothered me, either, although (obviously) many other things about Rochester do bother me.

Regarding Charlotte Bronte's notions about "soul mates" (don't they only appear during certain "life stages"), we'll have to forgive her because without such familial notions her sister Emily would never have written her brilliant poem "Remembrance",



Remembrance
By Emily Brontë

Cold in the earth—and the deep snow piled above thee,
Far, far removed, cold in the dreary grave!
Have I forgot, my only Love, to love thee,
Severed at last by Time's all-severing wave?

Now, when alone, do my thoughts no longer hover
Over the mountains, on that northern shore,
Resting their wings where heath and fern-leaves cover
Thy noble heart forever, ever more?

Cold in the earth—and fifteen wild Decembers,
From those brown hills, have melted into spring:
Faithful, indeed, is the spirit that remembers
After such years of change and suffering!

Sweet Love of youth, forgive, if I forget thee,
While the world's tide is bearing me along;
Other desires and other hopes beset me,
Hopes which obscure, but cannot do thee wrong!

No later light has lightened up my heaven,
No second morn has ever shone for me;
All my life's bliss from thy dear life was given,
All my life's bliss is in the grave with thee.

But, when the days of golden dreams had perished,
And even Despair was powerless to destroy,
Then did I learn how existence could be cherished,
Strengthened, and fed without the aid of joy.

Then did I check the tears of useless passion—
Weaned my young soul from yearning after thine;
Sternly denied its burning wish to hasten
Down to that tomb already more than mine.

And, even yet, I dare not let it languish,
Dare not indulge in memory's rapturous pain;
Once drinking deep of that divinest anguish,
How could I seek the empty world again?

The poem was supposedly written as part of an intricate childhood fantasy game that all of the Bronte children played. It was meant to be written by one of the characters. Charlotte's poetry is OK, but never rises to the level of Emily's.

[kiki1982]

Tangent - the fellows of Oxford and Cambridge colleges up until the mid C19 had to be unmarried and clergymen of the Church of England. (The head of houses could be married. A fellow marrying would have to resign his fellowship, but he could hope to be given a college living, ie become priest of a church of which the college was patron.)

True. That was the case with Mr and later Dr Arabin in the Barchester Chronicles of Trollope. Arabin regretted that he had always thought that he didn't need a wife and children and could live on academia alone... And then faced the issue of needing to live on the salary of a 'base' clergyman if he didn't find a wife with cash...


'Nother tangent - I wonder what the case was with working class men? I imagine that since they were not going to gain any further financial security, they had no reason to delay marriage.

As I understand it, middle-class and upper-class men were supposed to be able to 'keep' their wives. Obviously the women they met also had expectations. The same as we in our day wouldn't like to face abject poverty if we married.
Upper-class and middle-class men, I think had more difficulties than the working classes, because the last class didn't need to pretend, they could just refer to their 'willingness' to work and their lack of drinking. Upper-class and middle-class men needed cash and lots of it to 'keep' their wives in the first place, which meant they usually married rather late (around their thirties) because they needed the time to save money, to wait for their fathers/uncles to die, rise in their profession (to a level of income that was sufficient), could resign their commission in the army or otherwise to find a good (read: rich) match.
Typically a Mr Bingley was rather early in getting married at 22. A Darcy at 27-28 was more typical. But Bingley is portrayed as 'lucky' because his father has died early and he's left him a good income. You also hear people criticise early marriage as a recipe for disaster. In Persuasion you hear the prospective moter-in-law reminiscing about the fact that a long engagement is even worse. And the poor reverend Mr Crawley in Framley Parsonage lives in poverty because he was so daft as to marry far too early.
Once the IR was well underway, working class wives did jobs they could do at home and took in lodgers until their children could go to work to contibute to the household income. Or that's what I understand from genealogical research. Middle/upper class were required to stay at home from the start.


Final tangent - It is so easy to overlook how very young Lydia is. A few months earlier and nowadays Wickham would be accused of paedophilia.

Well, yes, but actually 15 was a a good age for a girl to be 'out'. That doesn't mean she had to marry straight away, but nevertheless it was OK to meet men with that prospect. Also men who were Darcy's age for that matter. However, it needs to be noted that a family with all girls 'out' at once was kind of inappropriate. I believe Jane the eldest was supposed to have been disposed of before Lydia and her younger sisters would have been introduced formally into society.

And now we get to the age gap between Rochester and Jane. I read once that the age gap between them was quite inapproppriate. And actually I think it is. At the age of 40 he would have been able to claim the hand of a woman of 25 maybe, but not the 'cream of the crop' so to say of 19 or 20. Obviously that doesn't mean they aren't a good match, but he's a bit 'past' it when it comes to young and fresh girls. If he could claim one at all, it would have been an appropriate widow or something. Colonel Brandon, for example, is pretty much on the cusp. Although the age gap between him and Marianne is the same as the one between Rochester and Jane, I think he's still seen as fully in the game when it comes to unmarried girls that weren't on the shelf (i.e. whatever has been left over, from about 24-25 years old), although he's considered on the 'older' side. Rochester is altogether past that stage.

[Ecurb]

Mr. Crawley relishes his poverty, picturing himself as another Samson, toiling with the slaves, eyeless in Gaza. Money, after all, was not the only conferrer of status. Here's one of my favorite scenes in "Last Chronicle", in which Archdeacon Grantly (whose son is to marry Grace Crawley) wins Crawley's respect. Crawley is recounting the conversation to his wife:




"I told him that in regard to money matters, as he called them, I had nothing to say. I only trusted that his son was aware that my daughter had no money, and never would have any. "My dear Crawley," the archdeacon said--for of late there seems to have grown up in the world a habit of greater familiarity than that which I think did prevail when last I moved much among men--"my dear Crawley, I have enough for both." "I would we stood on more equal ground," I said. Then as he answered me, he rose from his chair. "We stand," said he, "on the perfect level on which men can meet each other. We are both gentlemen." "Sir," I said, rising also, "from the bottom of the heart I agree with you. I could not have spoken such words; but coming from you who are rich to me am poor, they are honourable to the one and comfortable to the other."'

'And after that?'

'He took down from the shelves a volume of some sermons which his father published many years ago, and presented to me. I have it now under my arm. It hath the old bishop's manuscript notes, which I will study carefully.' And thus the archdeacon had hit his bird on both wings.

[kiki1982]

Ah, yes, that might be true (I'm not there yet), but I distinctly remember Trollope commenting that he and Mrs Crawley had married early and that because of that they were now faced with the abject poverty they were in. And things had already improved because they had moved down gfrom Cornwall (?) and had got a higher income. Howeevr, their straightened circumstances included not being able to fetch a doctor for Mrs Crawley when she is so ill with typhoid that she is in danger of leaving this earth altogether. Nor even was he able to give his children the food and clothing they needed, I recall. Nor indeed the schooling. Not to mention they had debts which were maid by Arabin in secret.

Indeed there is something of pride in his want (he does not take kindly to charity), but nonetheless it's not because he carries his cross with pride so to speak that the circumstances are the best they could be.
Lucy Steele p**ses off when Edward Ferrars is cut out of the will, because he'll only have 200 a year once he's taken orders. Obviously Elenor won't mind it, but it's a far cry from a few 1000, indeed even only 1000 pounds per annum. It's no big house, (good) wine, meat every day (unless suplied for free by the local squire out of kindness), a horse to ride on for the pater familias (forget the fly completely), no nice sherry/port but the cheepest you could get to keep up appearances (like Mr Quiverful). I mean if you went below the 500 pound per annum mark I think life could be pretty tough if you needed to keep up the middle class lifestyle. I'd say there were probably some working-class people who were better off as in those whose wives and daughters worked in the shop.

It's lovely to know what happens, though. :)

[Ecurb]

If you're still reading "Last Chronicle" (great novel, by the way -- I didn't know you hadn't read it yet) I won't spoil it for you. Suffice to say that a living of 350 pounds per year is considered a vast improvement on Crowley's situation in Hogglestock. I can't remember what that is, exactly, but I think maybe 100 pounds a year (for a family of 5). A pound was probably close to the equivalent of $80-$100 U.S. -- so 350 pounds would be $30,000 a year, plus you get a free house thrown into the bargain. That's not enough to make a man with a family rich -- but it's enough to survive fairly well on (unlike Crowley's Hogglestock living). Crowley couldn't afford to keep a horse. I remember from "Middlemarch" that a good riding horse cost 50-100 pounds (although you could probably get a serviceable one for less, but you'd still need to feed and stable it)

On his 100 pounds a year, Crowley can't afford to buy clothes respectable enough for polite society. On a potential $350 pounds a year, he expects to be able to live comfortably (if not in luxury).

[prendrelemick]

The age gap never bothered me, either, although (obviously) many other things about Rochester do bother me.

Regarding Charlotte Bronte's notions about "soul mates" (don't they only appear during certain "life stages"), we'll have to forgive her because without such familial notions her sister Emily would never have written her brilliant poem "Remembrance",



The poem was supposedly written as part of an intricate childhood fantasy game that all of the Bronte children played. It was meant to be written by one of the characters. Charlotte's poetry is OK, but never rises to the level of Emily's.

To write that at such an age is just incredible.

[Laura Clarke]

Agreed. I've never really looked much into Emily Bronte's works, though I know that many (rightly) admire them. I've heard that her Wuthering Heights is very similar to Jane Eyre in terms of it being a gothic romance, except being considerably darker. Would you recommend it to a Jane Eyre lover?

[kev67]

Agreed. I've never really looked much into Emily Bronte's works, though I know that many (rightly) admire them. I've heard that her Wuthering Heights is very similar to Jane Eyre in terms of it being a gothic romance, except being considerably darker. Would you recommend it to a Jane Eyre lover?

Difficult to say. I preferred it, but I don't love Jane Eyre. I thought it was fairly different to Jane Eyre in style. It's an odd sort of book.

[mona amon]

It is a great book, Laura, but as Kev says, different from Jane Eyre. In fact, except for the liberal use of the lovely Yorkshire dialect in both the books, there are hardly any similarities, and if we did not know it already we'd never have guessed the books were written by sisters. I'd recommend it highly.

[Jackson Richardson]

Wuthering Heights is totally unlike any other Victorian novel, not least in being so short.

It has another similarity with Jane Eyre in the characters of Rochester and Heathcliff who both seem to make women go weak at the knees for the same sort of reason: a brooding, alpha male with a mysterious past.

I wonder if it is significant that in both cases, as far as I remember, the woman only gets them when they have lost their power - in Rochester's case being blind, and in Heathcliff's dead.

But I may not remember aright.

[prendrelemick]

Agreed. I've never really looked much into Emily Bronte's works, though I know that many (rightly) admire them. I've heard that her Wuthering Heights is very similar to Jane Eyre in terms of it being a gothic romance, except being considerably darker. Would you recommend it to a Jane Eyre lover?

I don't know, have you and Rochester gotten a little stale? Perhaps a little dangerous flirtation with another bad boy is just what's needed to put the spark back into your relationship.

[Gladys]

I've heard that her Wuthering Heights is very similar to Jane Eyre in terms of it being a gothic romance, except being considerably darker.

I read both the same year.

For me, Jane Eyre is a moving story about a passionate and noble-minded girl growing up facing adversity and good fortune, in turn. Wuthering Heights is an existential whirlpool scything through the cultural norms and sensitivities of conventional humanity. Jane Eyre left me feeling of warm: Wuthering Heights feeling raped. I rate the latter among a handful of superlative novels.

[Laura Clarke]

I don't know, have you and Rochester gotten a little stale? Perhaps a little dangerous flirtation with another bad boy is just what's needed to put the spark back into your relationship.

Haha - no way, prendrelemick. I'll always love Rochester :)

But thanks guys - I'll definitively give it a try

[kiki1982]

Wuthering Heights is totally unlike any other Victorian novel, not least in being so short.

It has another similarity with Jane Eyre in the characters of Rochester and Heathcliff who both seem to make women go weak at the knees for the same sort of reason: a brooding, alpha male with a mysterious past.

I wonder if it is significant that in both cases, as far as I remember, the woman only gets them when they have lost their power - in Rochester's case being blind, and in Heathcliff's dead.

But I may not remember aright.

I once read an article arguing that the trio Arthur Huntingdon (The Tenant of Wildfell Hall by Ann), Rochester (CB) and Heathcliffe (by Emily) were in fact different gradations of the Byronic Hero, the type of man you describe: mysterious past, doesn't give a damn (Rhett Butler who feels he's been wronged), and destructive. The article termed him 'mad, bad and dangerous'. However, where Heathcliffe is so dangerous that he actually kills everyone around and where Huntingdon is a lost cause who lets himself be helped too late, Rochester is made acceptable as you say. He's 'neutralised' by his blindness, so to say. Indeed he's become dependent on Jane and he can't really do anything to her because he can't see her :D.

I still don't know why anyone would go weak at the knees with Heathcliffe, though. Rochester, yes, because apart from being a manipulator there's not much wrong with him, but Heathcliffe that's something else...

[kiki1982]

I read both the same year.

For me, Jane Eyre is a moving story about a passionate and noble-minded girl growing up facing adversity and good fortune, in turn. Wuthering Heights is an existential whirlpool scything through the cultural norms and sensitivities of conventional humanity. Jane Eyre left me feeling of warm: Wuthering Heights feeling raped. I rate the latter among a handful of superlative novels.

I whole-heartedly agree!

Much as I love Jane Eyre for the kind of realism it projects in that relationship between Jane and Rochester who should actually be 'just' a secondary character, I really really was blown away by Wuthering Heights. It's one of the very very few books I just couldn't be torn away from. From the very first few sentences it just sucked you in in the most devilish way really. For the time that's quite remarkable.

There are no superlatives that can really express how truly sublime it is.

[supergran]

I once read an article arguing that the trio Arthur Huntingdon (The Tenant of Wildfell Hall by Ann), Rochester (CB) and Heathcliffe (by Emily) were in fact different gradations of the Byronic Hero, the type of man you describe: mysterious past, doesn't give a damn (Rhett Butler who feels he's been wronged), and destructive. The article termed him 'mad, bad and dangerous'. However, where Heathcliffe is so dangerous that he actually kills everyone around and where Huntingdon is a lost cause who lets himself be helped too late, Rochester is made acceptable as you say. He's 'neutralised' by his blindness, so to say. Indeed he's become dependent on Jane and he can't really do anything to her because he can't see her :D.

I still don't know why anyone would go weak at the knees with Heathcliffe, though. Rochester, yes, because apart from being a manipulator there's not much wrong with him, but Heathcliffe that's something else...
Charlotte took pains to distance Rochester from her siblings' literary heroes in a letter to her publisher in 1848:

You say Mr Huntingdon reminds you of Mr Rochester – does he? Yet there is no likeness between the two; the foundation of each character is entirely different. Huntingdon is a specimen of the naturally selfish sensual superficial man whose one merit of a joyous temperament only avails him while he is young and healthy, whose best days are his earliest, who never profits by experience, who is sure to grow worse the older he grows.

Mr Rochester has a thoughtful nature and a very feeling heart; he is neither selfish nor self-indulgent; he is ill-educated, misguided; errs, when he does err, through rashness and inexperience: he lives for a time as too many other men live, but being radically better than most men, he does not like that degraded life, and is never happy in it. He is taught the severe lessons of experience and has sense to learn wisdom from them. Years improve him; the effervescence of youth foamed away, what is really good in him still remains. His nature is like wine of a good vintage, time cannot sour – but only mellows him. Such, at least, was the character I meant to portray.

Heathcliff....is quite another creation. He exemplifies the effects which a life of continued injustice and hard usage may produce on a naturally perverse, vindictive and inexorable disposition. Carefully trained and kindly treated, the black gypsy-cub might possibly have been reared into a human being, but tyranny and ignorance made of him a mere demon.

[supergran]

I whole-heartedly agree!

Much as I love Jane Eyre for the kind of realism it projects in that relationship between Jane and Rochester who should actually be 'just' a secondary character, I really really was blown away by Wuthering Heights. It's one of the very very few books I just couldn't be torn away from. From the very first few sentences it just sucked you in in the most devilish way really. For the time that's quite remarkable.

There are no superlatives that can really express how truly sublime it is.
I've owned Wuthering Heights for years but never read it because I've despised the characters in the adaptations I've watched. However, if the writing's as sublime as you are all saying it is, perhaps I've been depriving myself!

I love Jane Eyre.

[Gladys]

I've owned Wuthering Heights for years but never read it because I've despised the characters in the adaptations I've watched.

Adaptations are rarely faithful, especially of a novel as subtle and radical as this. Heathcliff is hard to despise because his upbringing is so tortured. Catherine is Nietsche's superman and leaves us in awe. I've read nothing better and the memory still haunts me years later.

Jane Eyre is a fine story: Wuthering Heights is a tour de force. After all, Charlotte felt the need to water down Emily's masterpiece after her early death.

[prendrelemick]

Adaptations are rarely faithful, especially of a novel as subtle and radical as this. Heathcliff is hard to despise because his upbringing is so tortured. Catherine is Nietsche's superman and leaves us in awe. I've read nothing better and the memory still haunts me years later.

Jane Eyre is a fine story: Wuthering Heights is a tour de force. After all, Charlotte felt the need to water down Emily's masterpiece after her early death.

I think I need to read Wuthering Heights again, I was underwhelmed, I couldn't accept that people would act like that.
I got on a bit better with Jane, but again there were parts where I couldn't suspend disblief.
I enjoyed Tenant of Wildfell Hall best of the three, It was probably the most scandalous of the three at the time, but the plot and resolution satisfies the modern reader.

[Danik 2016]

Jane Eyre is also a sort of alter ego of Charlotte, who fell herself in love with an older married man. It was seemingly a unrequited love. Charlotte seemed to be very inexperienced at the time. The relationship probably consistet mainly of an correspondence, intense on Charlottes side and not more than friendly on the professor's side.
So there was more wish fullfillment than reality involved. And, of course, Charlotte let her heroine have eveything she herself had wanted and could not get: a loving but dependent husband, riches, position, a happy family and children.

[bounty]

ive read enough austen, and jane eyre (not to mention Lolita, though the dynamic was different, and anne rampling's Belinda where the forbidden and illegal age difference is the central part of the story) to wonder about how/why social mores, and laws, change, and to use literature as a place to start those conversations.

came back after I was reminded of the laurie king mary Russell/Sherlock holmes series. has anyone read those?

almost 8yrs after the fact, I actually remember everyone ignoring my post....so screw you all!

jane austen characters aside, and just for fun from some of the books ive since read:

holmes was ~59 when he starts a relationship with mary Russell, who was an underage teenager. the eventually marry.

Harry Blyth’s The Accusing Shadow, 1894. Daisy is 19 and Mr. Roach is 48.

Lee Child’s Jack Reacher in Running Blind. Reacher was in love with his CO’s daughter, Jodie Garber, when she was 15.

Alex Berenson The Faithful Spy, p83: “He didn’t gamble but he enjoyed the pageantry of the place, the billionaires walking beside women half their age…”

John Lescroat Dead Irish p113 “So Sam Polk had married Nika about six months ago. He looked to be around 55. She was mid-20s, maybe a little more. Got to be money Hardy thought, at least to some extent.”

David Baldacci’s The Target 2015. Will Robie is the object of the president's 15yr old daughter Claire Casson’s affection. Per a 2012 book, he was 40 then. The events in the latter book occur after the earlier one. He is at least 40 something.

Exit to Eden (1985) Lisa, ~18yrs old, answers an ad “Applications still being taken for the Roissy Academy. At this late date, only those entirely familiar with the training program should apply.” P46. Having just read The Story of O, Lisa recognizes what is at hand. She applies and after some time with a trainer Jean-Paul, she is delivered to her temporary owner. His age isn’t given but he is clearly well established and has “Gray thick hair…” p81.

1993 Michael Connelly’s Black Ice, p85 “He went to the bar and ordered an Anchor, and then took it to an empty table by the front door. The Wind was becoming crowded with the after-work crowd. People in business suits and dresses. There were a lot of combinations of older men with younger women…”

from War and Peace p73: In response to a query about a particular daughter taking singing lessons. “Too early? Not at all” said the Count. “Why, didn’t our mothers used to marry at twelve or thirteen?”

Page War and Peave p1090: French captain telling Pierre about a bizarre love triangle. “Thus the captain recounted the affecting story of his love for a fascinating Marquise of thirty-five, whose charming, innocent, seventeen-year old daughter he was in love with at the same time. Mother and daughter had vied with each other in magnanimity, and the rivalry, which had ended in the mother sacrificing herself and offering her daughter in marriage to her lover…”

Kafka’s The Trial (1968 edition, but first printed in 1925) chapter 6, K’s uncle Albert, takes him to see an old lawyer friend, Huld, to help with K’s case. When they gain entrance to the lawyer’s house, the author writes “The door really was open, a young girl---K recognized the dark somewhat protuberant eyes…” p99. Later in the scene, K finds reason to leave the lawyer’s room and has a dalliance of sorts with the girl, Leni. Among other things, he says to her, “In the first place, I had to listen to these old men jabbering.”p107. He is apparently gone for quite awhile because at their departure, his uncle upbraids him saying “Joseph! How could you do it! You have damaged your case badly, which was beginning to go quite well. You hide yourself away with a filthy little trollop, who is obviously the lawyer’s mistress into the bargain and stay away for hours.” p111. No one’s age is given but as the uncle raised Joseph there is probably a generation between the two, at least twenty years. Given that Huld is an old friend of Albert’s the same is probably true of him as well. The thought of his being aged is somewhat bolstered by Huld’s being bedridden with a suspected bad heart. The short of it is that someone “old,” probably in his 50s/60s has a “mistress” who is maybe twenty-something at the most.

The Cleaner (2007) by Brett Battles, p315 “Quinn noticed that Burroughs’s taste in companions hadn’t changed. Burroughs liked them tall, he liked them blonde, and he liked them fake. The liked them young, too. Tonight’s date couldn’t have been more than twenty-four, at least a quarter-century younger than Burroughs.”

P86 in The People’s Act of Love (2007) Anna is with a group of student revolutionaries and she’s asks one of them if they know a man named Lutov, who is her father. The student replies “…he spends most of his time trying to seduce girls who hang around the Marxists. You’re just his type. You should be careful.” Anna is 16.

Memoirs of a Geisha (1997) p122: “I was almost twelve by then and was beginning to look a bit womanly…In the past, men had taken no more notice of me on the streets than if I had been a pigeon; now they were watching me when I passed them. I found it strange to be the object of attention after being ignored for so long.”

P131: “If was right about the Chairman’s age, he was probably no more than forty-five. Plenty of geisha has achieved tremendous success by the age of twenty. The geisha Izuko was probably no more than twenty-five herself.”

P339. Introduced as a geisha at elegant parties in the USA, Sayuri finds herself in conversation with women, whom she surmises are thinking “My goodness… I’m talking with a prostitute…” and then she continues narrating, “A moment later she’s rescued by her escort, a wealthy man a good thirty or forty years older than she is.”

James Rollins’ The Doomsday Key (2009) P108 “Ivar was fast approaching his sixty-fifth birthday…” “Though only in her late twenties Krista Magnussen…” P159 “Moving into his [Ivar] arms, she kissed him again. Not chastely this time, but full on the lips…He recognized that she was seducing him…”p163.

Water for Elephants (2006), “She tells me about meeting August---she was seventeen, and it had just dawned on her that the recent spate of bachelors joining her family for dinner were actually being presented as potential husbands. When one middle-aged banker...”

Louis L’Amour The First Fast Draw (1959), writing about the time immediate post Civil War, “It was Matt Kirby who knew about Lacy Petraine…[T}he year she was sixteen she married an Irish gambler named Terence O’Donnell. He was, according to Matt, a gentlemen. He was thirty-two when she married him…” p70.

If You Can’t Live Without Me, Why Aren’t You Dead Yet?! (1992) by Cynthia Heimel. “I know this is true because all my male friends say it’s true. They have girls coming out the wazoo. If one girl doesn’t work out, if she’s not pretty enough, or talented enough, or young enough, they just find another one.” P74. “And I see it in the lives and relationships of friends and acquaintances. Get a job, your husband hates you. Get a good job, your husband leaves you. Get a stupendous job, your husband leaves you for a teenager.” P79. “I have finally figured out the rudiments of how to love somebody, too late. There are no men my age, and if there are, they want twenty-two year olds to bear their children.” P158.

for a bit of gender reversal:

The Lives of Dax (1999). ““After all, McCoy was a small-town boy a few months shy of his eighteenth birthday. The venerable old campus of Ole Miss…was like a dream to him…(p127) And if wasn’t just any Trill, he realized with surprise and delight. It was the famous Emony Dax, three-time latinum medalist in the ’24 Olympics on Aldebaran. McCoy hadn’t been born when she competed in those games…Seeing her now, twenty-one years later, it was clear to McCoy that the holos hadn’t done her justice. She was beautiful (p131)…He tried not to stare at Dax, but he couldn’t help it. The Trill was far and away the most attractive and beautifully sculpted woman he human had ever seen---a work of art so fully and perfectly rendered that, to his teenaged eyes, she hardly seemed real (p132)…But before he could make his way across the gym, he found Dax standing in his way…”I was just wondering what you found so interesting…I think you spent more time looking at me than at the gymnasts” [after some desultory conversation] “Are you asking me out?...Because if you are, you’d better get to the point” “Er, dinner?” “Dinner would be splendid.” (p139) {after a few pages of dinner and conversation] Suddenly, he kissed her. It was a deep kiss. A passionate kiss. And she returned it was the same kind of passion. Slowly, she pulled him down to the ground and drew him to her. And there, under the velvety Mississippi sky, Leonard McCoy and the woman from the stars made love.”” (p146). Assuming she was say 14-20 during the Olympics, twenty-one years earlier, she’s 35-41 during the present, while McCoy is only 17. What makes the story more compelling is that Dax is a symbiont and Emony is its host, so Dax brings to Emony all the memory and life experiences of two generations of hosts before her.

In Alexandra Ivy’s contribution Out of Control in the book Predatory, Angela Locke is a 26yr old graduate student in a relationship with a man, Nikolo Bartrev, who was seemingly a visiting professor but is actually a powerful being (a Sentinel) protecting her from harm. His age isn’t given but the author references a character named Fiona who “had been as close as any daughter to him” (p30). That implies a generational age gap of ~20 yrs. Later, the leader of his organization, a man named Wolfe, refers to him as “old man” (p54).

The Innocent by Harlen Coben, p122-123. The main character, Matt, is talking with a ~60yr old woman named Sonya, and she’s telling him about her husband cheating on her. “Oh, did I mention that she’s young? The girl Clark is sleeping with?...Thirty-two, we have a daughter that age.”

a small counterpoint: P250 “Cingle had started developing at a young age. By twelve, she could pass for eighteen. Boys loved her, girls hated her. With all the years of enlightenment, that was pretty much the norm. Neither one of those attitudes bothered her much. What did bother her, especially at that young age, were the looks of older men, even relatives, even men she trusted and loved. No, nothing ever happened. But you learn at a young age how longing and lust can twist a mind. It is rarely pretty.”

The Velocipede Races (2016) Emmeline marries a man named Cassius Everett. She’s 18; his age isn’t given but she describes him upon their first meeting: “His dark hair was sprinkled with grey at the temples and he had a few lines around his eyes, but, otherwise, I had no sense of his age” p39. He’s rich, owns his own factory, and has a mansion and servants.

Harlan Coben’s The Innocent (2005). The genesis of the thriller is that a pimp secretly videotaped various men having sex with underage prostitutes. One of the men turned out to be a married FBI agent who had sex with a girl who had just turned 15, p458.

The Girl who Kicked the Hornet’s Nest (2009) Blomqvist’s sister, representing Lisbeth at her trial, cross-examining Peter Teleborian who kept attacking Lisbeth for being “in the company of older men.” “When I was twenty-two I had a relationship with a man who was forty-seven that lasted several months…” p584.

After Lisbeth is released from prison she travels to Gibraltar. she is in a hotel elevator with a man who is described as being between 50 to 55. shes 27. she says to him, “I’m feeling an irresistible urge to have sex with somebody...I’m in room 711...I’m going up to my room, take a bath and get into bed. If you want to keep me company, knock on the door within a half hour... p613.

The Natural (1952). As concerns Iris: “Half her life ago, just out of childhood it seemed, but that couldn’t be because she was too strangely ready for the irrevocable change that followed, she had one night alone in the movies met a man twice her age, with whom she had gone walking in the park.” P135. Later the author tells us that Iris is 33, and that she has a daughter who is grown who has a child of her own. That seems to make Iris ~15-16 at the earlier described time.

Carte Blanche (2011) a new James Bond novel by Jeffry Deaver. “He (Madhi al-Fulan) was in his mid-fifties” P178… “In front of one of the dozens of large computer monitors sat an attractive woman, a brunette, in her late twenties...she blushed, the ruddy color stemming from her affection for her mentor, who she glanced at quickly, a supplication for approval, which al-Fulan provided in the form of a seductive smile” P181.

Gone with the Wind Scarlett is a 16yr old when her love/hate affair begins with Rhett Butler, who is presented as at least in his mid 30s. Scarlett’s younger sister Suellen is being courted by a man named Frank Kennedy who is 40. However, he eventually marries Scarlett when she is ~21 and he is ~45. Scarlett’s parents married when they were 40ish and 15.

ive got 3-4 times as many examples from movies ive recently watched...

[Danik 2016]

Jes, Bounty! This looks like you are collecting material for a Dissertation on age differences in Literature. Some of these stories are charming. Today things look sad with all this representations of pedophilia. Some kind of innocence seems to have gone.

[bounty]

as I go through pop culture life---books, movies, music, news, etc, its something I pay attention to. its relatively common.

its amongst the many things I would enjoy writing about but I really feel like I need a collaborator to do so.

if youre up for some more danik, I can include some of the illustrations from movies.

heres a couple of samples:

Abbott & Costello’s Here come the Co-eds (1945): Martha Driscoll (Molly) is the object of David Cook’s (Benson) affection, born 1922 and 1901, ages 23 and 44 respectively, a 21 year age gap. What makes this especially interesting is that Benson was the Dean of the school and Molly was a student. Further, Costello, born in 1906 was in a relationship with Peggy Ryan, born 1924, an 18-year age gap. Costello was also an employee of the school and Peggy was a student.

Abbott & Costello Comin’ Around the Mountain (1951), Mattie is 14yrs old and part of the family is trying to marry her off to Wilbert (Lou) who as an actor is 45.

if youre up for some controversial conversation, we can do that too.

[Danik 2016]

I´ll have to think about it. Back in the evening.