An Accomplished writer

[Carmilla]

I'm reading Little Dorrit, and I find it fascinating. I've read 3 other books by Dickens: Oliver Twist, The Pickwick Papers, and A Tale of Two Cities.
He was such an accomplished writer. I'm marveled at his delicacy in conveying his characters' feelings and thoughts. When I read him I find myself pausing and thinking: 'Oh Charles, how wonderful you were at describing and portraying.'

Have you read any of the books I mention here? How did you like them?

[108 fountains]

I've read all of Dickens' novels. I finally read Martin Chuzzlewit two years ago; I had been putting it off for some years because now I have nothing "new" from Dickens to look forward to.

Dickens is my favorite author, and Pickwick Papers is probably my favorite book by anyone. No other book ever made me laugh out loud like that. And while I can understand some critics who say Dickens overemploys emotionalism and that his descriptions often run on and on and that his plots are contrived, I find that to be part of his charm. Some other critics say he lacks depth and that his characters are often one-dimensional; I would disagree. He is strongest when he understates a character's depth - an example I can think of occurs following the death of Mrs. Samuel Weller Sr. in Pickwick Papers. Despite the running jokes throughout the novel about the unhappy marriage, on the evening of the funeral, Sam Weller Jr. finds his father sitting alone in a very abstracted and contemplative mood and unmindful of the presence of his son until he places his hand on his shoulder. Then he turns and says, 'I wos a-thinkin', Sammy,' said Mr. Weller, eyeing his son, with great earnestness, over his pipe... 'I wos a-thinkin', Sammy, that upon the whole I wos wery sorry she wos gone.'

I would probably put A Tale of Two Cities second on my list with Bleak House and Our Mutual Friend close and a tie for third for my favorite Dickens novels. I first read A Tale of Two Cities in high school, when I was at an age where I was able only to just follow the plot. I read it years later and discovered that I loved the book as much or more for the really beautiful writing as I did for the story itself. The first several chapters, with the descriptions of Dr. Manette's "resurrection," are like nothing else I have ever read, beginning with Tellson's Bank representative Mr. Lorry in Chapter 4 trying to convince himself that his responsibility of telling Lucie Manette that her father is still alive (after 20 years of believing him to be dead) is just a matter of business: "Miss Manette, I am a man of business. I have a business charge to acquit myself of. In your reception of it, don't heed me any more than if I was a speaking machine-truly, I am not much else. I will, with your leave, relate to you, miss, the story of one of our customers."

When she falls on her knees at the first hint that her father may still be a live, he says, "No, don't kneel! In Heaven's name why should you kneel to me! ...a matter of business. You confuse me, and how can I transact business if I am confused? Let us be clear-headed. If you could kindly mention now, for instance, what nine times ninepence are, or how many shillings in twenty guineas, it would be so encouraging. I should be so much more at my ease about your state of mind."

Chapter 6, when Mr. Lorry brings Lucie to Paris to find her father in prison, I think contains some of the most poignant writing I have ever come across. They find a “dead” man who has been lost to the world of the living.

“Did you ask me for my name?"

"Assuredly I did."

"One Hundred and Five, North Tower."

"Is that all?"

"One Hundred and Five, North Tower."

His daughter, who had been standing behind Mr. Lorry, then moved and stood beside her father.

He stared at her with a fearful look, and after a while his lips began to form some words, though no sound proceeded from them. By degrees, in the pauses of his quick and laboured breathing, he was heard to say:

"What is this?"

With the tears streaming down her face, she put her two hands to her lips, and kissed them to him; then clasped them on her breast, as if she laid his ruined head there.

"You are not the gaoler's daughter?"

She sighed "No."

"Who are you?"

Not yet trusting the tones of her voice, she sat down on the bench beside him. He recoiled, but she laid her hand upon his arm. A strange thrill struck him when she did so, and visibly passed over his frame...

Of course, these short passages can’t convey the tension, tenderness, pathos, anxiety and expectation of the full chapters, but they do give a small taste.

It sounds like you enjoyed these stories for the same reasons I do. Welcome to the world of Charles Dickens, and may you enjoy reading him for years to come as I have.

[kev67]

I'm reading Little Dorrit, and I find it fascinating. I've read 3 other books by Dickens: Oliver Twist, The Pickwick Papers, and A Tale of Two Cities.
He was such an accomplished writer. I'm marveled at his delicacy in conveying his characters' feelings and thoughts. When I read him I find myself pausing and thinking: 'Oh Charles, how wonderful you were at describing and portraying.'

Have you read any of the books I mention here? How did you like them?

Of those three I have only read A Tale of Two Cities. Sydney Carton was the most interesting character to me. Oliver Twist is on my to-be-read list.

[Jackson Richardson]

Little Dorrit is one of his best, to my mind. (For me, the others are Bleak House and Great Expectations.) Dickens often did selfless young women in pathetic circumstances. They often seem sentimental and too good to be true. Amy Dorrit comes into the category, but she is heroic with backbone. Flora Finching is a wonderful example of Dickens criticising his own sentimentality about pretty young women. And while Flora is silly, she has heart. Unlike her father and Arthur's.

I'm re-reading Pickwick at the moment - it was his first novel and he hadn't found his feet. It was a very great success, but I don't find it so funny as the original readers (and indeed all the bits to do with the Pickwick Club itself are very forced, IMHO.)

Oliver Twist was his next novel, in which he incorporated melodrama into the main plot. Although it's so famous, I find it a bit too crude.

[Carmilla]

It sounds like you enjoyed these stories for the same reasons I do.

Yes, I did. :)


Welcome to the world of Charles Dickens, and may you enjoy reading him for years to come as I have.

Thank you, I will.

I've really enjoyed your post.

[Carmilla]

Hi kev67,

I truly loved A Tale of Two Cities. :)

[Carmilla]

Little Dorrit is one of his best, to my mind. (For me, the others are Bleak House and Great Expectations.) Dickens often did selfless young women in pathetic circumstances. They often seem sentimental and too good to be true. Amy Dorrit comes into the category, but she is heroic with backbone. Flora Finching is a wonderful example of Dickens criticising his own sentimentality about pretty young women. And while Flora is silly, she has heart. Unlike her father and Arthur's.

I'm re-reading Pickwick at the moment - it was his first novel and he hadn't found his feet. It was a very great success, but I don't find it so funny as the original readers (and indeed all the bits to do with the Pickwick Club itself are very forced, IMHO.)

Oliver Twist was his next novel, in which he incorporated melodrama into the main plot. Although it's so famous, I find it a bit too crude.

Hello,

I've already bought Great Expectations, Bleak House and David Copperfield. I think I will read Great Expectations as soon as I finish Little Dorrit.

[kev67]

Hello,

I've already bought Great Expectations, Bleak House and David Copperfield. I think I will read Great Expectations as soon as I finish Little Dorrit.

I have read Great Expectations. It is my favourite so far by a long way. It has the best villainesses. It has the best flawed hero. I am currently reading Bleak House. David Copperfield is also on my to-be-read list.

[Jackson Richardson]

Compare Mrs Clenam in Little Dorrit with Miss Havisham in Great Expectations. I don't think I would call Miss Havisham a villainess, but I take it she's who you mean. Mrs Clenam is far more cruel, but equally tragic: both are examples of people getting power over others by punishing themselves.

David Copperfield used to be regarded some fifty years ago as Dickens' masterpiece. My mother had a cousin who was named David by his father who was a great Dickens fan. Nowadays I don't think it's regarded as sufficiently dark. It is well worth reading though: Betsy Trotwood is a redeemed version of Miss Havisham and Mrs Clenam: a woman who gains power by making herself difficult. But she has far more heart than the other two. Mr Miwcawber is a sunny version of Mr Dorrit and Uriah Heep Dickens' best villain.

I'd second kev's recommendation of Great Expectations.

[kev67]

Yes, Lady Havisham but also Estella (GE). She's so mean. Neither rival Mme Defarge (TOTC) for evil. They are not even in the same league. In particular, Estella is a victim herself, and Pip who recounts the story is an unreliable narrator regarding her. Estella makes a change from the very sweet young heroines like Lucie Manette (TOTC) and Esther Summerson (BH).

[Jackson Richardson]

In due course, kev, you'll get round to Bella Wilfer in Our Mutual Friend, who starts out as though she's going to be Estella, and ends up a domestic goddess!

As he got older, Dickens' sweet girls got ballsier.

And it's Miss Havisham, not Lady. Although she's the wealthiest character in the book, she's got all her money through trade. ("I'd rather be a beeress than a peeress" as Maggie Grevile, the heiress of McEwan's brewery in the 20s said.)

Sir Lester Dedlock in Bleak House is one of the few genuine aristocrats in Dickens. But I'll wait till you've finished Bleak House before further comment.

[kev67]

Yes, Miss Haversham. I must have been momentarily confused with Lady Dedlock.

[Jackson Richardson]

Carmilla -

A work we haven't mentioned is A Christmas Carol. It is far shorter than Dickens' average novel. It has his virtues in extreme without his defects. (His defect is sentimentality about young women. Some would object that in A Christmas Carol he is sentimental about Tiny Tim, but I think the figure is very moving. In a work that is often held up as the origin of the secular Christmas, Tiny Tim is the Christ figure.)

[mal4mac]

His defect is sentimentality about young women. Some would object that in A Christmas Carol he is sentimental about Tiny Tim, but I think the figure is very moving. In a work that is often held up as the origin of the secular Christmas, Tiny Tim is the Christ figure.)

Sorry, I just don't see Tiny Tim as a "Christ figure". But I agree with you about him being very moving, and not sentimental. I think you also have a point about sentimentality as regards young women. But I don't think he always suffers from this. Examples of interesting, but not sentimental, young females: Estella in Great Expectations, David Copperfield's young playmate Emily, Nancy in Oliver,...

I think all his novels are worth reading. Here's a list of them all, in order of publication, not of preference. I think reading them in order of publication would be a good way to proceed, as I can't see the first three novels having any problems for any reader.

Also the very greatest, I think, are David Copperfield and Bleak House, which come in the middle of the list, so you read 6 superb novels with the thought that the best is still yet to come! Also the low points (Dombey & Son, A Tale of Two Cities...) aren't too early, which might put you off, or too late, which might leave a bad taste. (That said, I don't think they're bad novels, just not as good as the rest ...)

The Pickwick Papers – 1836
Oliver Twist – 1837
Nicholas Nickleby – 1838
The Old Curiosity Shop – 1840
Barnaby Rudge – 1841
Martin Chuzzlewit – 1843
Dombey and Son – 1846
David Copperfield – 1849
Bleak House – 1852
Hard Times – 1854
Little Dorrit – 1855
A Tale of Two Cities – 1859
Great Expectations – 1860
Our Mutual Friend – 1864
The Mystery of Edwin Drood – 1870

[Jackson Richardson]

I'll leave my theological speculations about Tiny Tim until the season of goodwill! Mal and I will never agree when religion is an issue, I fear.

There's a whole possible thread on Dickens' sentimentalisation of young women which I might start after I'm back in the UK later this month.

I totally agree about Bleak House. Dombey and Son is OK in bits and more engaging than Martin Chuzzlewit - although Chuzzlewit does have Mrs Gamp and Pecksniff.

Hard Times and Drood are best left till last, I'd suggest. The later Christmas stories are not his best either and not a patch of Christmas Carol.

I agree with mal that Tale of Two Cities is not his most engaging, or a "low point". But for some readers it is their favourite Dickens.

[Carmilla]

Carmilla -

A work we haven't mentioned is A Christmas Carol. It is far shorter than Dickens' average novel. It has his virtues in extreme without his defects. (His defect is sentimentality about young women. Some would object that in A Christmas Carol he is sentimental about Tiny Tim, but I think the figure is very moving. In a work that is often held up as the origin of the secular Christmas, Tiny Tim is the Christ figure.)

The book sounds insteresting. I'll try to read it in the future. :)

[Jackson Richardson]

I really recommend A Christmas Carol. Mal's idea of reading them all in sequence is lovely, but they are long and life is short!

I keep on meaning to give my thought on Little Dorrit, which I'd rate as good as Bleak House and better than David Copperfield. Briefly, it is all to do with prisons. The opening scene is the prison in Marseilles, then you have the quarantine at Marseille, then Mrs Clenam imprisoned through her infirmity and possibly her own selfishness and finally the Marshellsea itself where Amy Dorrit is born.

Dickens keeps on mentioning "the prison taint": characters need to justify themselves being imprisoned by denying their situation and being selfish. Mr Dorrit is the most obvious example, but it occurs repeatedly. And their are lots of characters "imprisoned": the Plornishes and the inhabitants of Bleeding Heart Yard by their poverty, Affery through her fear of Mrs Clenam, the whole of society through the power of the Circumlocution Office, Tattycoram through both the sentimental care of the Meagles and the manipulation of Miss Wade, Miss Wade herself in her bitterness.

It is a fascinating book.

[Jackson Richardson]

The one character who utterly transcends the prison taint is the one who was born in prison: Amy Dorrit, the Daughter of the Marshellsea herself.

[Carmilla]

I really recommend A Christmas Carol. Mal's idea of reading them all in sequence is lovely, but they are long and life is short!

I keep on meaning to give my thought on Little Dorrit, which I'd rate as good as Bleak House and better than David Copperfield. Briefly, it is all to do with prisons. The opening scene is the prison in Marseilles, then you have the quarantine at Marseille, then Mrs Clenam imprisoned through her infirmity and possibly her own selfishness and finally the Marshellsea itself where Amy Dorrit is born.

Dickens keeps on mentioning "the prison taint": characters need to justify themselves being imprisoned by denying their situation and being selfish. Mr Dorrit is the most obvious example, but it occurs repeatedly. And their are lots of characters "imprisoned": the Plornishes and the inhabitants of Bleeding Heart Yard by their poverty, Affery through her fear of Mrs Clenam, the whole of society through the power of the Circumlocution Office, Tattycoram through both the sentimental care of the Meagles and the manipulation of Miss Wade, Miss Wade herself in her bitterness.

It is a fascinating book.

Yes, it's fascinanting. :)

[Jackson Richardson]

When I re-read Little Dorrit last I was struck by the way in which the four opening scenes are all prisons of one sort or another - and as in Bleak House a number of different scenes are described without any obvious connection as far as the story goes. There's the prison at Marseilles, then the quarantine also at Marseilles in which the Meagles, Arthur and Miss Wade have been detained, then Arthur's visit to his mother who appears to be housebound and equally imprisons Affery and Arthur when a child, and finally we are introduced to Mr Dorrit in the Marshellsea.

[Carmilla]

I'm about to finish Book The First of Little Dorrit.

I really liked the characters of this Book. For instance: Mr. Pancks, the Gypsy, fortune-telling made me laugh. :) And Flora, I like Flora, she seems so tender, and made me laugh and smile sometimes, too.

[Jackson Richardson]

Good on, you, Carmilla, particularly if English is not your first language.

Pancks and Flora are interesting in so far as they are comic characters, but basically kind hearted. Dickens has a whole range of comic selfish characters by contrast. And there is a whole range of selfishness in Little Dorrit.

For me the climax comes when Mrs Clenam and Amy Dorrit confront each other, but I don't want to give too much away and spoil your discovery.

[Carmilla]

Good on, you, Carmilla, particularly if English is not your first language.

Thank you. No, English is not my first language, but I read everything in English and I speak in English with my mum everyday. Almost all the music I listen to is in English. I'm an anglophile into the bargain. :D To tell you the truth, I don't like Spanish in the least.


Pancks and Flora are interesting in so far as they are comic characters, but basically kind hearted. Dickens has a whole range of comic selfish characters by contrast. And there is a whole range of selfishness in Little Dorrit.

For me the climax comes when Mrs Clenam and Amy Dorrit confront each other, but I don't want to give too much away and spoil your discovery.

Thanks for not giving too much away. :)

[Carmilla]

Hello everyone!

Yesterday I finished reading 'Little Dorrit;' it's a masterpiece! I enjoyed it so much.

If you haven't read 'Little Dorrit' don't read the following sentence.

I was rather shocked when I discovered Mrs. Clennam was not Arthur's mother! :)

[Pompey Bum]

Ah! Spoiler! :) Just kidding, I've read it, too. My favorite parts were the Merdle business, which paralleled a notorious Wall Street case in our own times; and Flora Finching, who has to be one of the funniest characters Dickens (or anyone else) ever created. As usual with Dickens, the best of novels is also the worst of novels, but I overlook his sentimentality in the face of his amazing talent and power as a writer. Little Dorrit is indeed a masterpiece.

On another subject, I added a review to the thread you started on Joseph Conrad's Victory: An Island Tale, about the time you slipped from view (just in case you're interested). Nice to see you back in any case.

[Carmilla]

Hello Pompey Bum!

I hadn't realised that I was giving away the plot!! Now I've changed my post. :) Thanks!

[Jackson Richardson]

Congratulations! I don't find it as off puttingly sentimental as much else in Dickens. Amy Dorrit herself has backbone. I find Pet Meagles a bore, but she is seen through the sentimental and possessive eyes of Mr Meagles. No wonder she wants to escape her father with an arrogant bully. (Feminists don't like to admit it, but lots of woman find arrogant men, like Henry Gowan, sexy. He's still a ****, as is his ghastly mother.)

[Pompey Bum]

Yes, Amy Dorrit has a backbone, but to the point of being long suffering at times. Ironically, the real feminist character in a modern sense is the dangerously independent (to Dickens' view) Miss Wade, who leads the susceptible Tattycoram away from the Meagles' paternalistic grip, until she realizes how much she misses that sort of thing and returns like a good little dog.

Donna Tartt apparently said that Esther Summerson was the first unreliable narrator in English literature, but I suspect it was really Miss Wade. Wade narrates (subjectively) a chapter called The History of a Self-tormenter, in which she is portrayed in crypto-lesbian terms and her defiance as a pathological perversion from childhood. She is shown to be a will-o-the wisp, leading Tattycoram into shabby middle class misery--and worse. Why not stay with your rich masters and at least live in a nice place?

In Little Dorrit, Amy is a hero and Miss Wade is a villain. But the contradiction with modern feminism makes me wonder which one of them we should reassess. Which way are we headed in the 21st century? Which way should we be headed?

[Jackson Richardson]

From Mrs Gowan's point of view, the Meagles are irredeemably middle class.

[Jackson Richardson]

He's still a ****, as is his ghastly mother.)

I'm rather charmed that a word beginning with sh... is here blocked out while on a Christian messageboard I sometime use the f word is frequently used.

PS Mr Meagle's patriarchy is nothing like as toxic as Mrs Clenam's matriarchy. The Dorrit family's problem is that Mr Dorrit just fails in his responsibilities as a father.

[Pompey Bum]

Perhaps, but they didn't live in a shabby cottage with a dead garden featuring a pedestal without a statue. The message seems clear enough: Oppressed women! Your would-be liberators will only lead you to deeper misery. Return to security. Return to love.

I'm not defending Miss Wade, by the way, or putting down Amy Dorrit (or Dickens, who obviously knew nothing of the sensitivities of our times). My question is genuine. It comes from my curiosity about what will follow post-modernism. In Dickens' time, women like Miss Wade were usually seen the way Dickens presents the character: as dangerous firebrands with an air of perversion about them. But women like Amy Dorrit, if any even existed, were the ideal. Today most women are encouraged from girlhood to show the ironical/cynical skepticism of a Miss Wade and to eschew the earnestness of an Amy Dorrit as a kind of folly.

I genuinely wonder what comes next, that's all. I suspect, as I wrote on another thread, that today's second graders are going to insist on dramatic moral changes (as Dickens & Co brought moral changes to the world they had inherited from Henry Fielding and Laurence Sterne). My question is what comes next? I suspect that irony is about to be largely replaced by earnestness. So will characters like Amy Dorrit become the new role models--even for feminists? Or will writers find other models?

As far as Christians using "graphic language" goes, it's "Let your aye be aye and your nay be nay," isn't it? And that was probably so that first century Jews didn't swear by the gods of their occupiers ("Yes, by Jupiter!"--that sort of thing). That doesn't mean the Philistines weren't a bunch of f---ing sh--s at times. :)

[Jackson Richardson]

Gosh that raises so much.

Carmilla, I'm so glad you finished and enjoyed Little Dorrit. And I'm glad you've given me and Pompey a chance to talk and think about it.

I do recommend A Christmas Carol at this season.

I'll come back about Pet Meagles and irony later.

[Pompey Bum]

I second that recommendation.

I look forward to talking with you about this later, Jonathan.

[Carmilla]

Congratulations!^

Thanks. :)


(Feminists don't like to admit it, but lots of woman find arrogant men, like Henry Gowan, sexy.

I agree!

[Carmilla]

Jonathan:

Thank you for your kind words. :) I'll see if I can read 'A Christmas Carol.'

Pompey and Jonathan:

I find all your posts extremely interesting. So, I'm looking forward to new ones. :)

[Pompey Bum]

I love Jonathan's comments, too, but where mine are concerned, you are too kind. Enjoy A Christmas Carol, and let us know more of your own opinions. :)

[Jackson Richardson]

Gosh, I keep putting off posting here. I'll try to be back in a few days. (I noticed a contrast between Amy - whose father takes her for granted - and Pet - whose father idolises her to the point of not allowing her to be person in her own right. Tattycoram senses this, and only returns to the Meagles when Pet is gone, so she can now be the favoured daughter of the house, and not a kept sidekick to Pet.)

[Ugoki]

Oh, Miss Wade. She's one of the most vile Dickens character in my opinion. Unlike Quilp whose evilness is deliciously over the top, Miss Wade is relatively normal if not for the fact that she spits on the face on kindness while playing the poor oppressed victim. She's someone who will dismiss even the angelic kindness of Esther, Amy, and Nell as "condescension", and that is something I cannot stomach. The worst thing about it is that she isn't really satirized much like other Dickens villain. She even gets her own biased narrative chapter (which, hilariously, some folks actually buy)

I think she's a good character to have since it shows that Dickens may love to take potshots on condescending rich people, but perhaps sometimes it's the poor orphan who's at fault for being such an "unhappy temper", imagining snobbery and oppression where there is none.

If she were a feminist, she would be the perfect example of the negative view of feminists; a bunch of whiny self-righteous folks who love to play the victim.

[Jackson Richardson]

Welcome and thanks for responding to a thread I was on a year ago.

There's something a bit pathetic about Miss Wade. Like Mrs Clenam and Miss Havisham she tries to gain power over others by making herself miserable. But she doesn't have their money, so there's a limit to what she can do. All she does is seduce Tattycoram, who does have some good reason to feel patronized by the Meagles, whoever kindly intentioned.

I have some sympathy with Miss Wade as she is the nearest to a lesbian I know in Victorian literature and unfortunately embodies the negative stereotypes.

[Ugoki]

Okay, where did this lesbian thing come from? I certainly didn't see anything on the text that went to that direction.

[Jackson Richardson]

There wouldn't be anything unambiguous in the text in the C19. She's single, has no interest in men and a a big interest in Tattycoram.

[Ugoki]

Oh come on, that sounds like you just have your shipping goggles on.

[Jackson Richardson]

We can agree she’s a nasty bit of work. You made me wonder what she’s doing in the book, because as far as I remember she is tangential to the main plot.

Then I thought she’s another example of the prison taint, in her case the self-imposed prison of her suspicion.

[Disha]

Hey, it seems like you have read Great Expectations. Have u read Tom Jones?

[Carmilla]

Gosh that raises so much.

Carmilla, I'm so glad you finished and enjoyed Little Dorrit. And I'm glad you've given me and Pompey a chance to talk and think about it.

I do recommend A Christmas Carol at this season.

I'll come back about Pet Meagles and irony later.

Jackson Richardson:
I have finally bought a copy of A Christmas Carol, and I intend to read it next festive season as you recommended. :)

[Pompey Bum]

Hello Carmilla! Enjoy A Christmas Carol. I'll be reading it too this December (as I always do). Nice to see you again! :)

[Jackson Richardson]

I'm glad you have it and I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

I've utterley forgotten what I was going to say about Pet Meagles.

[Carmilla]

Hello Pompey Bum:

Nice to see you too!!

Hello Jackson Richardson:

I think I will enjoy it, yes!!

[Catriona L]

I'm reading his books in alphabetical order and so far I've read Barnaby Rudge, The Christmas Books, Bleak House and have started David Copperfield. I have really enjoyed them all, apart from The Chimes (one of the Christmas books) which was too confusing and dreary.
I really cannot understand why Barnaby Rudge is one of his least favoured works. It's a great insight into a moment of history that, I confess, I'd never even heard of before - The Gordon Riots. It's also such a funny book with unforgettable characters, such as Sir John Chester, who remembers that 'thinking begets wrinkles'.
Bleak House is also wonderful. So beautiful but gripping.