1984

[waxmephilosophical]

I know there is a separate forum for 1984, but I figured I'd have better luck getting a reply on this one. I know this is a work that criticizes Totalitarian regimes, but I don't understand why Orwell called the Party's form of government English Socialism. He was a Socialist at the time that he wrote this, so why would he compare his own governmental preference to Totalitarianism? Was he a discontented Socialist, perhaps? Was he trying to hint that Socialism was headed in a bad direction? So is 1984 more of a statement about Totalitarianism or Socialism?

[Munro]

I think the fact that the Party in Nineteen Eighty-Four calls themselves Socialist or Ingsoc highlights the deceit and distortion of political ideals in that world. For example China is a Communist nation, but their government calls themselves a Socialist Party, and many oppressive regimes around the world call themselves republics, or distort the words suggeting democracy. Also, it is a historical reference, as most Marxist organisations described themselves as Socialist anyway. A regime can call itself just about anything, and detract from the meaning of that word in the process. Political labels are used in completely the wrong ways in our world, as well as Nineteen Eighty Four.

[waxmephilosophical]

Thanks! That clears it up perfectly.

[den]

Munro, very clear observations there, thank you! The term `government' is so subjective really.

[Robert E Lee]

I think the fact that the Party in Nineteen Eighty-Four calls themselves Socialist or Ingsoc highlights the deceit and distortion of political ideals in that world. For example China is a Communist nation, but their government calls themselves a Socialist Party, and many oppressive regimes around the world call themselves republics, or distort the words suggeting democracy. Also, it is a historical reference, as most Marxist organisations described themselves as Socialist anyway. A regime can call itself just about anything, and detract from the meaning of that word in the process. Political labels are used in completely the wrong ways in our world, as well as Nineteen Eighty Four.


Wrong. The Chinese Party calls itself the Communist Party.

Orwell was no longer a socialist when he wrote 1984. He was disillusioned with socialism when he saw what the USSR was doing to eastern Europe. In other words, he sold out to capitalism like the British pansy he was.

[MarsMonster]

really? i didn't know any of that.... i have always thought of socialism as another name the comunists give themselves (because that is the case in this country...)

[imthefoolonthehill]

I think the fact that the Party in Nineteen Eighty-Four calls themselves Socialist or Ingsoc highlights the deceit and distortion of political ideals in that world. For example China is a Communist nation, but their government calls themselves a Socialist Party, and many oppressive regimes around the world call themselves republics, or distort the words suggeting democracy. Also, it is a historical reference, as most Marxist organisations described themselves as Socialist anyway. A regime can call itself just about anything, and detract from the meaning of that word in the process. Political labels are used in completely the wrong ways in our world, as well as Nineteen Eighty Four.


Wrong. The Chinese Party calls itself the Communist Party.

Orwell was no longer a socialist when he wrote 1984. He was disillusioned with socialism when he saw what the USSR was doing to eastern Europe. In other words, he sold out to capitalism like the British pansy he was.


What on earth do you mean? Capitalism is the only system on earth that truly seems to work. Look at all the socialist and communist governments on earth.... they are broke. Canada is broke; Germany is broke; even England is kind of tight on money... America, quite possibly the most capitalist country in the world, has a better economy than any of those... Yes, our economy has been declining, but it is not half as bad as the media in America portrays it. 1984 does deal more with an ultra-communist world whereas A brave New World deals with what America might become in 30-40 years if we don't put things in check. America is becoming more and more socialist... and it is hurting both her economy and her spirit of freedom.

[MarsMonster]

i have to agree with that, but still there is a lot to comment on capitalism. still it seems like the least bad of all the bads :)

[crisaor]

A regime can call itself just about anything, and detract from the meaning of that word in the process. Political labels are used in completely the wrong ways in our world, as well as Nineteen Eighty Four.
I think that what you say is right on the money, and that's a big problem for the world (not because you say it, but because of what it means, of course :) )


What on earth do you mean? Capitalism is the only system on earth that truly seems to work. Look at all the socialist and communist governments on earth.... they are broke. Canada is broke; Germany is broke; even England is kind of tight on money... America, quite possibly the most capitalist country in the world, has a better economy than any of those... Yes, our economy has been declining, but it is not half as bad as the media in America portrays it.
Surely you're kidding. Canada, England, and Germany (!) out of money????? you need to get out more. Do you really consider US economy to be better than, I dunno, Germany? (and by that, i mean considering the general lifestyle of the population with the size and role of the country, obviously the US economy is bigger in absolute terms) Please forgive me, but that's incredibly naive. If you live in the US (and I think you do), how can't you see it? Airlines collapse by the minute, Tourism (foreign and local) has enormously decreased, unemployment grows, corporate crimes are at an all-time high (i.e. Enron and others), a huge fiscal deficit, and many other things clearly show that the US economy is going down (and suddenly, the US invade an oil-rich country. What a coincidence). Nevertheless, I agree that the situation is not half as bad as the media portrays it. The US has plenty of strings to pull to remedy it. Not all of them are recomendable, though.

Personally, i'm not a capitalist nor a communist. I think that the production factors should be more equally distributed among the populace, but not at the expense of renouncing to private property. I consider myself socialist, but as Gandhi said, i'm not the same kind of socialist that exists (and many types do. Heck, even Hitler was called "national socialist").

[imthefoolonthehill]

You dare suggest ignorance on my behalf? If there is ignorance anywhere, it is in your gullible head. I am not merely saying that the quality of life in America is better than anywhere else in the world, I am saying it outright. It is a fact. As for the U.S. Economy... you have no doubt been listening to the U.S. Media... who are determined to associate a bad economy with President Bush. They exaggerate the problems immensly. The airlines are in trouble because the strict government controls placed for saftey precautions (a step towards socialism, not capitalism) cause the airlines to spend more on maitenance and fuel than they can make by selling tickets... The big airlines are collapsing because they ceased to be competative... smaller, newer airlines are taking their place... such is the nature of capitalism.

Tourism in the U.S.A. is still one of the best in the world...

Enron and World Com collapsed because they were being dishonest and stupid about the way they do business.

The U.S. still has the best economy of anywhere... Yes, some big business's have fallen... but small business's have already taken their place... this is the nature of our system, and it helps keep our economy strong... You are ignorant for thinking that Germany has an economy even comparable to the U.S.'s As for your accusation that the U.S. is invading Iraq due to profits obtained by oil.... you need to get out more... we have already promised not to take their oil or their money they get from the oil...

you are a lemming swallowing the line of crap the media has sent you... But don't worry... you aren't alone... the world is full of stupid people.

[SyZyGy]

Well....as you put it to foolonthehill..... YOU are obviously naive and uneducated. To think that Germany has an economy even equivalent to 1/5 of Americas is preposterous. I can hardly believe that you are anything but a bedouin, German, or French when things like that come out of your mouth. Sounds to me like you need to stop watching Al Jazeera Telivision or perhaps some weird European network. And as for "him not getting out much"... any American would laugh at you for saying that. In juxtaposition of the argument about our economy... we have computer programs that can literally let us look in on your frickin back yard. What other country can do that? America leads the world in exports of pretty much everthing except for wine, cigarrettes and coffee. To even suggest that we don't have the strongest economy is literally insane. It only serves to further my view that most other nations are non objective and undeducated.... So come on everybody.... move to America and live in the BEST country in the whole world. And you can also get a REAL education here...not some propaganda bull crap that most countries will try to push on youl.

[Admin]

GDPs of countries are public knowledge and can easily be looked up. The US might not have the highest per capita, but overall we do. (http://www.worldfactsandfigures.com/gdp_country_asc.php)

Though please keep this discussion related to the book.

[Robert E Lee]

Well....as you put it to foolonthehill..... YOU are obviously naive and uneducated. To think that Germany has an economy even equivalent to 1/5 of Americas is preposterous. I can hardly believe that you are anything but a bedouin, German, or French when things like that come out of your mouth. Sounds to me like you need to stop watching Al Jazeera Telivision or perhaps some weird European network. And as for "him not getting out much"... any American would laugh at you for saying that. In juxtaposition of the argument about our economy... we have computer programs that can literally let us look in on your frickin back yard. What other country can do that? America leads the world in exports of pretty much everthing except for wine, cigarrettes and coffee. To even suggest that we don't have the strongest economy is literally insane. It only serves to further my view that most other nations are non objective and undeducated.... So come on everybody.... move to America and live in the BEST country in the whole world. And you can also get a REAL education here...not some propaganda bull crap that most countries will try to push on youl.

This is nonsense.

First of all, GDP is a poor measure of the wealth of the people because it distributes the wealth evenly. Sure, if America was a socialist country a la francaise the average American would be the richest commoner in the world. The best median and average SALARIES in the world are in Switzerland and Japan, followed distantly by France, Luxembourg, etc.

Second, I myself am an American, from Miami, Florida, thank you very much; but I have traveled, and I understand that the best standard of living is not in America. Despite all that hogwash George Bush and the media tell you about "FREEDOM", you'll see more freedom in Germany.

Third, an average Joe who criticizes Eurosocialism is like a rape victim who enjoys it. How would you like to know that in France your employers would have no right to fire you without government permission and a three month period to get your stuff together?

Fourth, you want to talk about REAL education? Then I guess I'll mention that university in France is a right to anyone who passes the Baccalaureate. That's right, free university education. No need to beg for a scholarship, no need to flip burgers.

Fifth, you should try leaving the US and visiting Europe. That is where the REAL freedom is.

Sixth, Bill Clinton was right when he said there America should be in the middle ground between socialism and capitalism. Too bad both political parties are bought by Enron, Microsoft, and their ilk.

[Admin]

Many quasi-socialist countries offer free college and free healthcare. Canada is another example.

Of course nothing is free, its free to the patients, but not to the tax payers. Sales Tax in Canada is what? 20%?

Also free schooling can be misleading. Where I live students can get free college. 2 years in a community college to be exact. Is that 2 year education as good as a 4 year education at a university? No.

So a free education in France isn't going to be as good (in most cases) as a paid education here. And that education in France isn't really free, its just paid for via taxes.

I'm pretty sure you're still in high school Robert, go to some college sometime. Tell me how many people you meet who are foreigners. It isn't just people from developing countries that want to study in American, people from all over the world want to study at American Universities because we have the best Universities in the world. They might be the most expensive, but they are most definitely the best.

Our high schools suck, but our Universities do not.

Just to give you one example, I once worked in a genetic engineering lab at Michigan State and half of the other workers, grad students and undergrads, were foreign. Most of them were German to be specific.

If you want to argue that socialism is better than capitalism... well look at the Cold War.

Since this thread is no longer about 1984, I am closing it.

[Arab_Negotiator]

Canada is broke; Germany is broke; even England is kind of tight on money... America, quite possibly the most capitalist country in the world, has a better economy than any of those...

LMFAO!
LOL HARD CORE!
im in aus, and were feeling america's sting. Bastards are costing us money :argue:

If u want to get back to me its best u email me @ mikehunt003@hotmail

lol thanks again on a great line for me to use months later :D

[Logos]

.... Since this thread is no longer about 1984, I am closing it. oops :p