john milton- heavan and hell

[firestarter]

"Better to reign in hell than it is to serve in heaven."-bookI,line 263.

If you put it in that perspective, then yes i guess it would be. But where would you draw the lines between good and evil? If you are for god and against satan, then maybe it is better to serve in heavan than reign in hell, if you agree or disagree, i would love to hear your reply.

[Jay]

Well, this verse was written in Satan's point of view, so then it would be "better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven". But if it would be from someone other's POV, then the question should have been "what's good and what's evil?", as you have already suggested. And I think it's the question you can't reply correctly, because there always will be someone who would try to show you that your answer isn't the right one, that you're wrong.
So as long as I just said almost the same you have ;) , it would be the "I agree with you" kind of a reply. It could be a good suggestion for a diccussion, though. Anyone wants to join?

[thalia]

"Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven!" Ahhhh...
That quote was actually what got me to prefer Satan in P.L. to God, who really is made out to be a bit of an arsehole.

I mean, his revolution went all wrong, wronger than Robespierre's (became Hell, etc.), but he didn't have any control over that! God screwed him over ineffably from the very beginning of his new order. The guy was just tired of being a slave! ::insert massive sympathy for the Devil here::
In P.L., Satan's really much more understandable, much more sympathetic, much less arbitrarily mean. Sure, he's cruel, but that's basically his job description, so there ain't much choice.

[TWTCommish]

Huh? :D

[imthefoolonthehill]

Thalia... you make it sound as if Satan has a 'job'. From a Christian standpoint, Satan does what he does as part of a battle-not a job. He chooses to rally humans to his side in hopes that he will win in the end. I am not sure if you are being sarcastic... because it is hard to detect such things when reading written text. Theologically, Satan has quite a bit of a choice.

Plus, Satan wasn't just tired of being a slave, he wanted to take God's place - to be God. As for God being mean, 1. he isn't. 2. if he was, we would deserve it as the human race. If He created us, then we owe him our lives, do we not?

[Blackadder]

How Calvinist of you, fool in the hill. I always looked at as a question of free will. Would you trade heaven for the ability to choose for yourself. Angels don't have free will, humans do. I don't think Satan wanted to be God, I think he wanted to be human.

As for 'sympathy for the devil,' keep reading and watch how he degenerates further.

[mono]

Wow, this proves a really old thread, but out of sheer boredom, I still meander my way through these. The quote from John Milton, I feel, makes far more sense after reflecting on another quote from Paradise Lost:

The mind is its own place, and in itself creates
A Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.

[Jay]

Good point :)

[subterranean]

Paradise Lost somehow was influenced by the politcal changes in Uk back in 1660. Cromwell feel and Charles II gained power. Under Charles, the elites who during Cromwell's reign were opressed by the puritans, had all the chances to do almost everything they wanted. And Milton saw this as a total backward to established a nation which was fully "governed" by Christian values.
So i think the words in Paradise lost more or less also depict the political and social conditions when the poem was released

[mono]

I imagine then, with subterranean's knowledge of historical politics, that the original quote, "Better to reign in hell than it is to serve in heaven," makes sense, though, philosophically, I remain a skeptic.

[subterranean]

Well i was just trying to point that perhaps the poem was not only about the fall of Adam and Eve from Eden. I always believed that social, cultural and/or political situations give influences to writes and their works.

I was just sharing my idea there ;)

[Raoul Shade]

I have not posted anything because I was disappointed the way I was treated by your coordinator or chief or whatever he is, when I enquired about the possibility of publishing my translations of Latin American poetry into English.