THE ANYTHING DEBATES

[TexaninNihon]

Alright. Who's gonna start?

[TexaninNihon]

alright. I'm looking forward to this. Can anyone give a list of some of the most patriotic American books?

If anyone wants to help explain to me why Patriotism is one of the "worst horrors of humanity", I'm waiting. I hope those dudes find this and respond here. You know who you are.

[hadji9]

It's your turn, bud. Just continue where we left off . . . You wanted some sort of justification from me and I gave it to you. You have to battle through the thick barrier of logical arguments that I have placed before you. I am excited to see where this will lead us . . .

[TexaninNihon]

I am sorry, have I upset you? I apologize. You talk as if being 'unpatriotic' were the social norm of the day. You are entirely mistaken. Additionally, I don't understand how you -- a student in a country that has no military except what the American government has allowed it to have -- can make any claim whatsoever to 'cultural objectivism'. I recommend you go stay in a country like France or Belgium and get a real taste of what living in a society wholly unlike that of America is really like. Of course, you would charge me with the immodest task of living in the caves of Afghanistan to test my liberal beliefs; fair enough.

Do you actually think that Japan is more similar to the US than France is? When I look at or hear French or German nowadays, it just seems like strange English. Give me a break. And there is a reason that Japan doesn't have a military now. Elderly people in Taiwan, among other places, can explain that one for you...but only if you speak Japanese, because that is the only language they know. France's army is bogged down on the Ivory coast, Germany doesn't have an army. They used to, but then they caused 2 World Wars. I didn't say that you had to live in Afghanistan. Everyone knows that you wouldn't last there. Just get out of Northeastern America for 6 months or so.

Meanwhile, a North Korean missle was launched all the way over Japan in '98, and another one landed in the Sea of Japan about 160 miles from my apartment, so I'm quite glad to have American forces in Japan and South Korea at the moment.

If you were in Bush's shoes, what would you do? Knowing full well that radical Muslims (emphasize the word radical) want you dead just as much as they want me dead. Why? not because we like democracy, but because we're not Muslim. What would you do? Maybe we should rename Iraq, Iran, and North Korea the "Axis of Diversity" and spend lots of time trying to better UNDERSTAND them. Yeah. My vote goes to protecting my family.

What DO you believe in hadji9? What does hadji stand for?

Oh, good grief, that IS interesting. It's like jihad, mixed all around. Like in code.

[hadji9]

I wish you would have responded to some of the other points I made, namely the points I made about America being the reason WMDs are a "token of a nation's greatness;&quot and America being just as guilty of violating human rights as Iraq and other rogue states.

Meanwhile, you have presented me with an interesting scenario: What would I do in Bush's shoes? Well, I literally took you through it step-by-step in my last post on the General Lit. board; I would take our nukes off first-alert status. But that doesn't solve the cultural/religious barrier . . . I can't say that anyone has a real solid solution to that predicament, but I will say this: Muslims are terrified of losing their culture to oppressive, imperialist Europeans. I think step in the right direction would be to support and applaud cultural diversity and autonomy. I understand you have a family to protect . . . but your children (if you have any) are going to have to protect their families ad infinitum. I think getting to the ideological roots of the problem is the only way to sincerely resolve the matter, whereas, passing legislation and fighting wars only suppresses the problem until it gains momentum later on.

[TexaninNihon]

I wish you would have responded to some of the other points I made, namely the points I made about America being the reason WMDs are a "token of a nation's greatness;&quot and America being just as guilty of violating human rights as Iraq and other rogue states.


where are these quotes from? They're not from anyone I know or would agree with, so I don't need to respond to them. Tell me the source, if you can, and I'll look it up and respond after.

As for the rest, that's fair enough. I have no clues as to what I would do in Bush's shoes. I don't really expect that anyone has. You use the word European alot and so I need to point out that I think Europe's values and goals and those of America are very different. I think that it is important to take this into account before anyone can even begin to understand my position.

Last time I got a bit offensive. Sorry for that. I really am trying to keep my disposition as friendly as I can. This is a heated subject, isn't it? Also, I can't seem to get a response about anyone's opinion of "The Jungle", so if you have read it, let me know what you thought. Also, I'd like to know:

In 1984, what character would you most likely have been? Why? What would you have done differently?

[hadji9]

I am sorry, have I upset you? I apologize. You talk as if being 'unpatriotic' were the social norm of the day. You are entirely mistaken. Additionally, I don't understand how you -- a student in a country that has no military except what the American government has allowed it to have -- can make any claim whatsoever to 'cultural objectivism'. I recommend you go stay in a country like France or Belgium and get a real taste of what living in a society wholly unlike that of America is really like. Of course, you would charge me with the immodest task of living in the caves of Afghanistan to test my liberal beliefs; fair enough.

Do you actually think that Japan is more similar to the US than France is? When I look at or hear French or German nowadays, it just seems like strange English. Give me a break. And there is a reason that Japan doesn't have a military now. Elderly people in Taiwan, among other places, can explain that one for you...but only if you speak Japanese, because that is the only language they know. France's army is bogged down on the Ivory coast, Germany doesn't have an army. They used to, but then they caused 2 World Wars. I didn't say that you had to live in Afghanistan. Everyone knows that you wouldn't last there. Just get out of Northeastern America for 6 months or so.

I know it entails a kind of self-glorification, but being able to fly across the ocean and live in Japan for extended periods of time is not a viable option for the majority of people, such as myself, living in midde-lower class households. I happen to have several close friends who live in Strosbourg, France who I keep in close contact with everyday. I am not one of those people who sits on their porch completely blind to the world beyond America. I even have a friend who is studying abroad in Tokyo, and, if you want, I can forward you some of the e-mails he has sent me describing Japanese culture and society. I know it must be refreshing to think that you are the only one here who understands the dynamics of the world. The truth is, neither of us have the slightest idea. I'm always happy to offer my opinions and alternatives, but I can tell you right now that there is one major flaw that we are both overlooking, and that is: people are always going to want to be in disagreeance with others. It is our human nature. But I am still thoroughly convinced that this war isn't going to resolve the underlying conflict. What do you think?

[hadji9]

I wish you would have responded to some of the other points I made, namely the points I made about America being the reason WMDs are a "token of a nation's greatness;&quot and America being just as guilty of violating human rights as Iraq and other rogue states.


where are these quotes from? They're not from anyone I know or would agree with, so I don't need to respond to them. Tell me the source, if you can, and I'll look it up and respond after.

As for the rest, that's fair enough. I have no clues as to what I would do in Bush's shoes. I don't really expect that anyone has. You use the word European alot and so I need to point out that I think Europe's values and goals and those of America are very different. I think that it is important to take this into account before anyone can even begin to understand my position.

Last time I got a bit offensive. Sorry for that. I really am trying to keep my disposition as friendly as I can. This is a heated subject, isn't it? Also, I can't seem to get a response about anyone's opinion of "The Jungle", so if you have read it, let me know what you thought. Also, I'd like to know:

In 1984, what character would you most likely have been? Why? What would you have done differently?

I was quoting myself! lol!

[hadji9]

I wish you would have responded to some of the other points I made, namely the points I made about America being the reason WMDs are a "token of a nation's greatness;&quot and America being just as guilty of violating human rights as Iraq and other rogue states.


where are these quotes from? They're not from anyone I know or would agree with, so I don't need to respond to them. Tell me the source, if you can, and I'll look it up and respond after.

As for the rest, that's fair enough. I have no clues as to what I would do in Bush's shoes. I don't really expect that anyone has. You use the word European alot and so I need to point out that I think Europe's values and goals and those of America are very different. I think that it is important to take this into account before anyone can even begin to understand my position.

Last time I got a bit offensive. Sorry for that. I really am trying to keep my disposition as friendly as I can. This is a heated subject, isn't it? Also, I can't seem to get a response about anyone's opinion of "The Jungle", so if you have read it, let me know what you thought. Also, I'd like to know:

In 1984, what character would you most likely have been? Why? What would you have done differently?

I use the term 'European' pretty much interchangeably with 'American', since we both share a common ancestor: the Romans.

I read 'The Jungle' when I was a freshman in high school . . . I became a vegetarian for a short period of time, but it is foolish to think that conditions are still that bad (though they are by no means perfect). I think it is an excellent peice of political literature.

In 1984 I would have been Julia, I think. I would like to think of myself (even though I'm male) as a kind of partner in crime who sheds new light on the situations. Hadji is Johnny Quest's partner, BTW. A pattern has emerged!

[TexaninNihon]

I agree that a small war with Iraq won't solve any "since the beginning of man" type problems, such as any mans inherent desire to disagree and triumph over another man. But neither will inaction, because Saddam can always sell a 150 km range weapon to a terrorist who will then chuck it from the Gulf of Mexico into the middle of Houston.

Also, I can't buy the argument that the war is for oil. If we wanted oil, we would just buy more of it. If it was about oil, we'd be happy to just buy it(we have the money) and Saddam would be more happy to sell it to us, which he could if we lifted the sanctions. If it was only about oil, we would lift the sanctions, simple as that, don't you think?[/quote]

[hadji9]

I agree that a small war with Iraq won't solve any "since the beginning of man" type problems, such as any mans inherent desire to disagree and triumph over another man. But neither will inaction, because Saddam can always sell a 150 km range weapon to a terrorist who will then chuck it from the Gulf of Mexico into the middle of Houston.

Also, I can't buy the argument that the war is for oil. If we wanted oil, we would just buy more of it. If it was about oil, we'd be happy to just buy it(we have the money) and Saddam would be more happy to sell it to us, which he could if we lifted the sanctions. If it was only about oil, we would lift the sanctions, simple as that, don't you think?[/quote]

I don't think it is solely for the purpose of acquiring Iraq's oilfields, but can you imagine how much power America would have if it did? There would be no limit to the power of US hegemony. I think Bush has a personal score to settle . . . and he is probably generally concerned with Saddam Hussein's possession of WMDs, but when has Iraq ever provoked us? We came to Saudi Arabia and Kuwait terrorized that Saddam would have full control of the only oilfields that weren't prior to under his control. The question concerning terrorism is something that I am probably unqualified to answer . . . I'd like to say it goes back to ideological differences that could be resolved diplomatically, but the threshold has been crossed . . . we can't turn back. I am just appalled by our disregard of cautious, logical action. We want war, and we are going to move as fast as possible. If we do go to war (as I suspect we will), then what? There is nothing to suggest that we have a solid, well-rounded plan to deal with the post-war dangers. It is so much to think about . . . thank God there is literature to fall back on. I am of the belief that the world cannot be reduced to politics or economics (contrary to both Capitalists and Marxist-Socialists). I think that life imitates art an that art is the reality. Have you ever read any James Joyce? He is my personal favorite. I just started reading 'Ulysses' in French the other day . . . it is one of my favorite novels of all time. What are your thoughts on everything I have just said -- political and literary alike?

[Admin]

America being just as guilty of violating human rights as Iraq and other rogue states.


Someone isn't well educated.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/iraqanfal/

That is a liberal organization known as the Human Rights Watch. They actually have advocated war to get rid of Saddam.

People conveniently forget that Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of his own people.

Comparing that, or China, to the US is just wrong. If the US was China you'd be in jail right now. If the US was Iraq you'd be dead, and your family, and your entire ethnic group.

I'm closing this thread because I do not want these forums to be full of political debate. That is not why I made them.