View Full Version : Where does the authority lie?
On my way home this evening, I passed a church building that had a sign posted out front stating their times of service. Not only that, it also stated the type of service that it would be; informal, contemporary, or traditional. My question is, where do they get the athuority to change the worship service other than to do what was commanded of us in the Bible? God set certain rules for us to follow, and if we don't follow them, aren't we guilty of itching ears? (See Tim 4: 2-4) Many people pose the argument that "Well, society changes and we just want to bring the people in the door." So people presume that they can bring God down to the level of society instead of bringing people to God with truth as He commanded.
God doesn't change, so why should our worship to Him have to?
Hebrews 6: 17-20
Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. 19We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.
He didn't say that if you change and have 3 different types of services that you are OK. So who has the authority to say that these forms of worship are acceptable?
Admin
03-09-2003, 11:10 AM
I don't think you'll find a strict description of what worship must be in the bible. The traditional worship style was created by the Catholic Church.
Is it possible to post a reply here? I've tried twice already, now I'm going to sleep...
Ok, I'll try this in parts. :x
I beg to differ with your statement Admin. Scince this is a Bible index, lets look at some verses... we'll start in John 14,
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command.
21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
Later in chapter 15;
9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.
I know this is a lot already but evidently obeying God's word was important to Jesus. 1 Corinthians is a good book to refer to. It's a letter that Paul wrote to the Church in Corinth, explaining how members of Christ's church ought to conduct themselves and how the church should operate. In fact, he rebukes them for problems they were having within the church.
1Corinthians 11:17-22
In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval. 20When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, 21for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!
So, how did the first christians worship?
They sang (without instruments I might add),
Ephesians 5:19-21
19Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Colossians 3:16-17
16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
They gave and offering (tithing ended with the old covanent),
1Corinthians 16:1-2
Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. 2On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.
2 Corinthians 9:7
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
They observed the Lord's Supper and preached.
Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
No offense, but Catholic traditions were started 150 years later by men like Augustine, Origen, and one who's name starts with an "I". (Sorry, I don't have my references with me right now, but if you'd like them later l can have them for you.) They began traditions like infant baptism and transsubstantiation (the belief that the wafer and the wine actually become Christ's body and blood). They also invented religious holidays like Christmas, Easter, All Saints Day, etc... by taking a pagan holiday and giving it a biblical theme. Look at Galatians 4;
8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God--or rather are known by God--how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.
Just because these men lived a long time ago, still dosen't give them authority to change our worship toward God.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to get on a soapbox, but growing up as a Catholic, I never read the Bible and I was having a hard time following a faith that changed the rules every so many years and had no foundation for me to turn to. My salvation is important to me and I'd rather know what God's commands are for me by going to the Word that He left for me instead of letting a man tell me what they are.
Whew, I guess the length is what kept my reply from going through, but at least I got several drafts in before this one! :rolleyes: Oh, I'm done now.
By the way, to everyone, I'm getting married in 2 weeks and won't be able to post as much, seeing as how I haven't finished making my dress yet! ;)
I'm going to sleep...
Admin
03-10-2003, 11:15 AM
So like I said, there isn't anything specific in the bible.
There is nothing that says "You must wear nice clothes to worship"
It says sing songs, pray, and offer money.
That is pretty general in my opinion, I doubt that the Church you are talking about goes against that. Additionally if someone offers an informal mass and people who wouldn't otherwise pray go to this mass, isn't that a good thing?
Ok then, let's look at specifics! ;)
1 Corinthians 10:14-22
14Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.
18Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he?
Hmm.... flee from idolatry, that sounds familiar... what about the second commandment- the one that talks of no graven images? My Webster's dictionary describes a graven image as an idol made of stone or wood. We are no longer under the old covanant but that point sounds like a reinstatment to me. I have yet to walk in a Catholic church that didn't have an idol.
1Corinthians 11:1-16
1Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.
2I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,[1] just as I passed them on to you.
3Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just as though her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7A man ought not to cover his head,[2] since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.
11In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. 13Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice--nor do the churches of God.
Ephesians 5:6-17
6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7Therefore do not be partners with them.
8For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10and find out what pleases the Lord. 11Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, 14for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:
"Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you."
15Be very careful, then, how you live--not as unwise but as wise, 16making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is.
1Corinthians 14:34-35
34As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
1 Timothy Chapter 2
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone-- 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[1] will be saved[2] through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
1 Peter 3:3-5
3Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. 5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands,
Much of the way that we dress has to do with our culture. We must not be flashy otherwise we fall under the sin of pride. And due to our culture, we dress in a way that shows respect towards others.
And to address your question, read what Christ said in Matthew 7,
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Even though people claim to be followers of Christ, if they do not teach in truth it is useless. As I said before, we cannot presume to bring God down to the level of society. If we don't follow His commands in the way that He desires, we are no better than the Isrealites who formed a calf to worship while Moses was on the mountain, all because they wanted to worship a god that they could see.
Oh, what about this passage,
Matthew 15:1-9
1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.' "
Christ rebuked the teachers of the law for teaching things that are contrary to God's word. How is it any different for us today?
And one more note about clothing in worship,
5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'
8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Chist rebuked the scribes and pharisees for wearing extensive clothing. Does that not sound like Catholic priest garb falls under that? Also he disapproves of religious titles. Here my Grandmother would say, "Oh, you don't have to call a priest 'father'!" But if Christ explicitly said don't do it, why then teach it?
Admin
03-10-2003, 03:16 PM
You know, taking the bible literally is a bad idea. Leviticus for example has many things that do not make sense in today's society.
19:9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.
19:10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.
Hmm? Someone should inform the farmers.
19:20 And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.
Adultry is okay if it is with a slave?
19:23 And when ye shall come into the land, and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised: three years shall it be as uncircumcised unto you: it shall not be eaten of.
19:24 But in the fourth year all the fruit thereof shall be holy to praise the LORD withal.
So you can only eat fruit in the fourth year?
19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.
19:28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.
I'm in trouble, I have a goatee... and my fiance she has a few tattoos.
20:17 And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.
20:18 And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.
So if a man accidentially sees his sister naked they shall be banished? And if a man sleeps with a woman on her period they shall be banished? Good thing we all have 2 beds.
20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
Indeed, wizards all over the place, we need to do something about the wizard epidemic.
21:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto the priests the sons of Aaron, and say unto them, There shall none be defiled for the dead among his people: 21:2 But for his kin, that is near unto him, that is, for his mother, and for his father, and for his son, and for his daughter, and for his brother.
21:3 And for his sister a virgin, that is nigh unto him, which hath had no husband; for her may he be defiled.
21:4 But he shall not defile himself, being a chief man among his people, to profane himself.
21:5 They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh.
People on the swim team shave their heads.... it is a sin.
25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
And then there is slavery.
Christian Fundamentalism is no less wrong than Islamic Fundamentalism. Religious fundamentalism is dangerous, it always has been, no matter what your religion. Remember, it is not for you to judge other people.
If you think that women should cover their heads in Church then you're no different than muslims who think women should cover everything out of doors. It is the same concept. You think people who are as formal in church as you are are sinners, or aren't worthy enough to worship your God, then what does that make you?
Why does it even matter to you? It is not your place to judge others. I think you need to go to church more often and instead of judging the other worshippers listen to the sermon. There will probably be something about loving your neighbor mentioned.
And remember, how someone else chooses to worship is none of your business. It is between them and God, and unless you think you're God then you have no right to judge them.
apstudent
03-10-2003, 06:19 PM
Amen, Brother! o
That is what I am thinking. I go to a very laid back church and worship jsut the same as everyone else. Are you saying that I am wrong because I do not worship in the same way as others. Are you saying that Contemporary Christian music is wrong, because it was not around in the times of Christ. I am a very faithful Christian, and it hurts when people tell me that I am not worshipping correctly.
I'm sorry if I hurt anyone by inferring that their worship is unacceptable. I'm simply sharing the verses that I wish someone had shared with me earlier in life.
I heartily agree that Leviticus makes no sense in today's society! The reason why is that it is part of the old covanent. It no longer applies to us today because of Christ's death. Look at Romans 7;
Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
And Chapter 8;
because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
I am not judging, I am stating facts. I do not presume to know the mind of God, I only go by what He wrote to us in the Bible. If we make up our own way of worship, is that not presuming to know the mind of God?
Going by the basic fundamentals of the Bible is not dangerous. A lot of religious teachers claim to teach the entire Bible, but they may "overlook" a passage or add something that the Bible is silent about. This is when it is dangerous.
Speaking of which, if you kept reading about a woman keeping her head covered, you'll also find that it says that God gave her her hair as a covering.
If you read some of these verses, they may seem "way too conservative" especially in today's society. But if you stop to think about them they really make a lot of sense mostly because pride likes to get in the way. The standards of the Bible were set up like this to keep that from happening.
Once again, I don't judge anyone, but I do challenge people to examine their method of worship to make sure it's acceptable to God. Otherwise what's the point in going at all?
Oh, and apstudent, I never said that Contemporary Christian music is wrong, but is it in your worship service? What does the Bible have to say about that? Look at 2 Timothy 3:16and 17 and Revelation 22: 18 and 19.
apstudent
03-11-2003, 12:06 AM
Yes, the Contemporary Christian Music is in our worship service. They play songs by Relient K, DC Talk,, Newsboys, Audio Adrenaline. However, I have read all of your posts and believe in one thing only. I love God and any way that I feel like showing my love to God is acceptable to him. Just as anywhere, anytime, is a good place to pray or worship God, any way that you wish to worship God is the same. Oh well, I did not take offense to what you said, and I hope you find peace with yourself in the way you worship.
I remember listening to DC Talk, Audio Adrenaline and Newsboys, in fact, those bands and Third Day were my favorite. But my taste in music has changed.
I'm glad for you that you are happy with your style of worship. Please don't think that I'm all hard core rules and regulations, I just have a passion for taking the Bible in its entirety.
These are some of my favorite passages:
Matthew 6:25-34
"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life[1] ?
28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
I also liked the prodical son in Luke 15 and of course the passages that deal with the crucifixion.
Another of my favorites is the parables of the sower. It's one of the reasons why I share the Bible in the way that I do. I feel like the sower. I only share what I know to be true. I don't force people to believe as I do, otherwise it's not their faith it's mine. I was forced to believe a faith that wasn't mine, by my family. The way they did that was, before I turned 18, I knew that my Catholic family would never let me see my mother if I didn't play the part of "a good little Catholic girl." They disapproved of what she taught me after she began reading the Bible.
I do have peace in the way that I worship now.
I liked the idea of a place on a literary forum where the Bible could be discussed. I didn't see much discussion, I saw a lot of favorite verses though. Which is all well and good but I'm glad I finally had a discussion. ;)
Hi, guys. I know I won't have to tell a lot, but I think you are right BOTH, and also Admin. Yes, there are rules, but many of them can be taken in differently. And there would be no progress if the rules aren't changed or made more flexible. Everybody has his/her own way to worship God, and as Apstudent said, it probably doesn't matter to God as long as you worship him. But the rules are also needed, because then there would be a chaos. It's important to find a way from both of the ways of worshiping.
You know what my opinions are, so I hope you don't mind I joined this conversation.
SirStefan32
03-16-2003, 04:42 PM
Well, I think the Bible ought to be taken literary. Common objection- quoting scriptures from the Old Testament. That was a different dispensation. the age of Law, if you will. Now we live in the age of grace, and those laws do not apply to us. However, the historic parts of the Bible have to be taken literaly and still apply to us. (Genesis, etc.)
The problem with "rules of worship" is- where exactly do you draw a line?
I used to go to an indipendent fundamental baptist church, led worship for a while. My guideline was that the music should be there to glorify God, not men. I don't have a oproblem with having a "contemporary" service, but again, where do you draw a line? I am not saying you have to wear a suite, but you shouldn't wear a pair of shorts or a mini skirt either. I am not saying there should be no other instruments then piano and Organ, but I don't think you should have Guns 'n' Roses like music either.
Shea, where do you go to school? I read in another thread that you are going to a Christian College, and it says you are from Florida, so I am just wondering if you are in Pensacola Christian College?
Stefan
Shea, where do you go to school? I read in another thread that you are going to a Christian College, and it says you are from Florida, so I am just wondering if you are in Pensacola Christian College?
Stefan[/i]
No, I went to Ohio Valley College in West Virginia on the Ohio border. It was centered around the Church of Christ congregational views. However, I found it and the churches in the area to be very liberal and few people new truth or worse yet, they didn't really care about it. Their idea of the Great Commission was to travel to foreign countries and forget about the people next door. From the example that they set, these people were more interested in traveling than spreading the gospel.
I'm now attending a Church of Christ here in Tampa, Florida. I am much more impressed with the example and preaching style here. I don't simply hear about God's love for me, but I also hear what I should do to continually earn His love though I am never worthy. There is a christian college here called Florida College, but I'm not going to attend there because I want to teach high school and thier certification is for elementary level.
Is Pensecola where you attended? What did you study?
LuisInteriano
03-30-2003, 01:03 AM
:D test- new to site
SirStefan32
03-30-2003, 04:18 PM
Shea, where do you go to school? I read in another thread that you are going to a Christian College, and it says you are from Florida, so I am just wondering if you are in Pensacola Christian College?
Stefan[/i]
No, I went to Ohio Valley College in West Virginia on the Ohio border. It was centered around the Church of Christ congregational views. However, I found it and the churches in the area to be very liberal and few people new truth or worse yet, they didn't really care about it. Their idea of the Great Commission was to travel to foreign countries and forget about the people next door. From the example that they set, these people were more interested in traveling than spreading the gospel.
I'm now attending a Church of Christ here in Tampa, Florida. I am much more impressed with the example and preaching style here. I don't simply hear about God's love for me, but I also hear what I should do to continually earn His love though I am never worthy. There is a christian college here called Florida College, but I'm not going to attend there because I want to teach high school and thier certification is for elementary level.
Is Pensecola where you attended? What did you study?
No, I am studying Psychology right now, but I would like to get a degree in Thelogy. I thought about going to Pensacola, but I guess it's too strick for me.
Stefan
Do you plan on using your Theology degree along with Psychology? I knew a guy at that Christian school who was studing psychology. He claimed to be a Christian, but as I got to know him, his attitude proved otherwise. I hope he finds peace so that he can better help others in the way that he said he would.
What sort of psychologist do you want to be?
Just had an extra idea to add to this topic. In 1 Thessalonians, Paul is admonishing the chuch at Thesalonica for their good work and gives them some final peices of advice including these verses;
1 Thessalonians 5:21 & 22
Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22Avoid every kind of evil.
Yeah, their short but it helps us to know exactly what we believe. Just think, if we let governmental officals just simply tell us what they feel should be a law, and we follow it without questioning it, aren't we being oppressed? Wouldn't we do the research ourselves? If a person researches laws to make sure thier rights are being properly observed, shouldn't they do the same to make sure their worship is correct to God who ordained our governments? (see Romans 13:1-7)
SirStefan32
04-21-2003, 12:56 AM
I would like to be a forensic psychologist, working for the FBI on profiling serial killers, etc. I don't really want to do psychoanalysis or anything like that. I think people need Bible and not some psychologist trying to help them.
Stefan
imthefoolonthehill
04-21-2003, 02:56 PM
Shea... are you done rambling off verses that don't really even support your point? Such duckspeak!
SyZyGy
04-21-2003, 03:06 PM
Ok first of all.... like the previous message you dont have anything to support your point. You simply spurt facts that really dont have much to do with what the topic being consulted. First of all... the Bible references many many many many many times that all men everwhere should worship the Lord in all forms. The Bible states that men should sing " a new song " to the Lord every day of and praise. Without which, there would be no such thing, i believe. Furthermore, the bible references specific instances of David dancing in his palace and the streets BUCK NAKED as a result of being "overcome of joy over the Lord." The Bible also presents verses instructing people to "Sing a new song to the Lord" and "Worship the Lord Your God in all forms of praise." The Bible does not once even suggest that you should follow a specific doctrine or orthadoxy when worshippping the Lord, in fact, the Bible often incourages diversity and variety when praising or worshipping.
waxmephilosophical
04-21-2003, 04:31 PM
I am a member of the Church of Christ also, Shea. I have been taught that we should try to be as close to the church that Paul set up as we can, and to worship accordingly. There are some very traditional christians in our church that believe you shouldn't even use overhead projectors during worship. I, however, find it hard to convince myself that if someone worships a little differently than I do, but their passion for Christ is real, that they will be condemned for it. (There are limits though...I don't go along with the "whatever works for you" philosophy...it's not supposed to be "to each his own".) I guess I don't know exactly where I stand on it. I remember visiting a non-denominational church where they had a female song leader and a band, and something just didn't feel right about it. Any thoughts (or scriptures)?
Ok first of all.... like the previous message you dont have anything to support your point. You simply spurt facts that really dont have much to do with what the topic being consulted. First of all... the Bible references many many many many many times that all men everwhere should worship the Lord in all forms. The Bible states that men should sing " a new song " to the Lord every day of and praise. Without which, there would be no such thing, i believe. Furthermore, the bible references specific instances of David dancing in his palace and the streets BUCK NAKED as a result of being "overcome of joy over the Lord." The Bible also presents verses instructing people to "Sing a new song to the Lord" and "Worship the Lord Your God in all forms of praise." The Bible does not once even suggest that you should follow a specific doctrine or orthadoxy when worshippping the Lord, in fact, the Bible often incourages diversity and variety when praising or worshipping.
Excuse me, but could you please quote some of those passages? I don't like to take anyone's word as fact without a refrence. But do be careful, I've read myself the passages that advocates instrumental music in worship, but those are in the Old Testament. Nowhere in the New Testament does it say to use instruments. As you can read in Romans 7, we are no longer under the old Law.
1Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Hopefully, you guys feel this scripture is appropriate for my point. But why don't you crack open a Bible and read it in context (or any of the scriptures that I mentioned for that matter)? It's pretty black and white to me.
Waxmephilosophical, I've attended congregations that wouldn't use overheads either, but it really dosen't make much sense. Something like that is a tool, not a change. For example, when God commanded Noah to build the Ark, He said to use gopher wood but he didn't say anything about a hammer or nails (if this is how he built it). The hammer or nails would be a tool. But if we were to have a gym or a hall build on to the building, that's not a necessary tool for worship and could cause problems. As far as the woman song leader, consider this passage,
2Timothy 2:11-15
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
I, as a woman have no problem with this verse, but I do realize that in todays "liberated women" society, this verse gets overlooked a lot. This is the site to my congregation, it has a lot of links on it that might be helpful.
http://universitychurchofchrist.com/
Don't be afraid to check out a different congregation if you can. Because the Church of Christ congregations are not linked together, you might find one that teaches more accruately in another way. Just make sure you stick to your Bible and ask a lot of questions, don't take anyone's word for it. ;)
imthefoolonthehill
04-22-2003, 01:38 AM
Shea: Paul didn't use Pianos or Organs... is it sinful to play those in worship to God? Honestly... this is rediculous. I don't think it is sinful to worship God using electric gutars and electronic music. I find it distasteful... because I don't like the style of music... but I can find nothing wrong with it. If you think that a different length of a soundwave offends God... then I am not sure you are playing with a full deck of cards.
Once again..., these are the only references to music for worship in the New Testament.
Ephesians 5: 19
Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord,
Collosians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.
Now, when you take along the references in the Bible that talk about not adding or taking away from the scriptures, such as
2 Timothy 3: 16 and 17
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
or Revelation 22: 18 and 19
18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
and other examples given to us, you'll find that instruments are not allowable. Unfortunately, man feels that he can improve upon God and that is how we get all our denominations. Honestly, it's easier to just study the Bible than to investigate all the different religions that are out there. And like I said before, studying the Bible is like baking a cake. If you forget a little thing like eggs, the cake will run out all over the oven. Of course the cake is ruined; so is it goes it goes with our souls. That's why it really bugs me when someone claims to know God and Jesus and has never even read the Book that tells them how! That's like someone reading cliff notes to one of our books and then trying to talk about the book on this site as if they read the whole thing!
RoseBud
04-23-2003, 08:43 PM
Shea, are you ready?
I have not found any passage in the New Testament that explicitly forbids instrumental music. You cite passages that tell us to make music in our hearts. They do not, I repeat, DO NOT prohibit instrumental music. They don't even mention it. How do you prohibit without mentioning?
I know of several lists of sins, but instrumental music is not one of them.
HOw logical is it to suppose that if we have music in our hearts, it will not burst forth in instrumental as well as vocal music? Or, are you saying that we should keep all our music bottled up inside, and never even sing?
As you yourself mention, instrumental music was permitted in the Old Testament. But it was not merely permitted, it was commended. For brevity's sake, I give only one example out of many:
Ps 33:2 - Show Context
Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings.
Yes, the restrictive laws of the OT are no longer imposed on the NT believer. But can you show me whare Jesus said that the freedoms of the OT are also taken away? My understanding is that we have greater, not less, liberty now.
1Co 10:29
Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
2Co 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Ga 2:4
And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Ga 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
So, I turn your own criticism back on you. When you try to abolish instrumental music from Christian worship, you are guilty of adding to scripture. You wish to put a yoke on modern Christians that Christ abolished.
I tell you the truth. God loves music. He invented it, and from the beginning, the stars sang together. (That one works two ways -- figurativley because the stars represent the angels, and literally because the stars emit tones that can be picked up and measured.) His creation is full of music. Birds sing, yes, but in scripture we read of trees and hills clapping their hands with joy before the creator. If you were to succeed in muting the voices of all he saints, then the rocks would cry out.
Remember what happened on the first Palm Sunday? (One account is found in Matthew 21.) The children sang Hosanna. The Pharisees asked Jesus if he couldn't silence them. He said that God himself had ordained that day of spontaneous worship.
RoseBud
04-23-2003, 08:52 PM
Shea,
I want to know: where in the New Testament you find a complete order of worship?
I'm sure if I attended your church, I'd find people doing things doing things that Jesus did not specifically instruct us to do as part of the worship service. I might also find people omitting to do some of the things Jesus commended.
So, I'll challenge you. Post here a copy of the order of worship used at your church. Or post whatever you think is an ideal order of worship. Don't forget to tell us when people are expected to sit, kneel, bow or stand.
Then, we can proceed to pick it apart and tell you what is and what isn't strictly scriputral.
Rosebud, first of all, I want to thank you for giving me scriptures to look at!They were well stated about the freedoms that we have as Christians. The freedoms that were stated however, refered to the freedom from the old law. Nowhere in the OT did they have freedoms at all because they were under law. Christ fullfilled the law by dying on the cross as a sacrifice once for all so that all the rituals in the mosaic law would no longer need to be practiced. I suggest that you read all of Romans 7 and 8. Now, because of Christ, all that is needed is a believing, humble, repentant, submissive and obedient heart.
Ephesians 5:19 says "speak" not "play". We sing at the church that I attend, but only a capella. There were several times when I or some other member would invite someone to our services. Thier response would be "I have to have intruments in my worship." That is a cop out for someone who wants to be entertained. The audience of a worship service should not be the people in the building. The audience is God!
How do we know if something is pleasing to God when he didn't tell us to do it? Would you be pleased if you sent your child to the store to pick up bread, milk and eggs, and they came back with that and spent the rest of the money on candy and donuts? You didn't tell them not to buy candy and donuts.
Anyway, can't you see where pride gets in the way? All the people that I've known that played instruments for a church or sang in a choir have been pretty conceited about the whole thing. If you'll read a little further down in your Galatians reference you'll find the problem with conceit.
26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
Another case in point, suppose it was not possible for instruments to be used for a time; none available, all broken, whatever promotes this hypothetical situation. Would it be impossible for the congregation to be active in worship? What about those who just haveto have instruments?
I'm running out of time to post a response to your worship inquiry and I want to gather all my facts so that I can be thorough. Stay tuned! :D
RoseBud
04-24-2003, 02:05 AM
Thanks for asking for verses. No problem. But keep in mind, I will demand that you validate your assertions with chapter and verse.
Firstly, show from scripture that there were no freedoms under the OT. I will point out that there were.
The Jews were freed from slavery to the false gods. I can't show you a verse that calls this freedom, but you know the the Jews had an alternative to serving Molech, Astarte, Baal, etc. The Bible hints, and anthropologists explain, that Molech worship required the sacrifice of infants. A religion that demands the deaths of infants is slavery indeed.
The Jews were free to approach God more closely than the other nations. I won't cite every passage, but you surely know that they had the Tabernacle. Some Jews, namely the priests, were allowed to enter the holy place, and the High Priests were permitted to enter the Holy of Holies, where the Shekinah glory dwelt. Even to be represented there once a year is a freedom denied to the other nations.
The Jews had the Ten Commandments. I know, you will say that was bondage, but I will cite Paul. Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
The liberty in Christ is greater, but the Decalog granted a freedom from doubt about what God wants. So, because they had the law, the Jews didn't have to wonder if adultery was every justified, or if society should sometimes condone murder. That's liberating! Just ask Solomon: Proverbs 7 tells us that obeying the law can prevent a young man from falling into the trap of a prostitute.
I have read Romans 7 and 8. More than once. I've also diagrammmed them as part of a course in Bible college.
Do yremember the comparison Paul makes to marriage? That's at the very beginning of Romans 7:
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Now, where in that do you read that the widow forfeits her dowry? She doesn't! When her husband dies, she retains whatever property she brought into the marriage. She is free to choose a new husband, with both her dowry and the things she learned in her first marriage. The freedom to use instrumental music in worship is retained. According to you, Christians have to forfeit instrumental music in worship. That would be opposite from what Paul says, that the widow is free, not in deeper bondage. No, all the freedoms God gave the Jews are kept for Christians, and more freedoms are added.
So what is the liberty we have in Christ? Try Romans 6, especially verse 7; "For he that is dead is freed from sin." Note that! We are freed from sin, not from the good things of the Old Testament. If instrumental music was good, and many passages say that it is, then it is not a sin, and it is not something we need to be freed from in the New Covenant.
Consider. In the OT, people ate food. Is that a ritual we are not to continue in the New Covenant? People also got married, had sex, and gave birth to children, according to the OT. Are those dead rituals that have no relevance to Christians? Not everything that is in the OT is abolished, only the bad things.
You quote 5:19; "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;" I notice that this passage mentions pslalms, hymns, spiritual songs, singing and melody. You make too much of the word speaking, ignoring the context. If you were to speak enough psalms, you would run into one of the many passages where instrumental worship is recommended! Hymns are vocal music, and so are spiritual songs. And how can you sing if you are forbidden to sing?
I think you are gulty of "speaking lies in hypocrisy." You quoted that, I think, so you should know what I mean. I will also draw your attention to Acts 20:30, where we read of self-appointed prophets "speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them." Your doctrine (no instrumental music) is NOT of Christ, nor of his Apostles, but it is a false prophecy to divide the church.
YOu have no scriptural authority to say that singing and instrumental music are bad, or that they do not belong to Christian worship. I on the other hand have plenty of authority, in the books that Jesus came not to abolish but to fulfill.
What do you do with the singing around Jesus' throne in the Revelation (chapter5)?
"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. "
In this passage we see a worship service in heaven, and guess what? Harps! Singing! A song! If it is good enough for Jesus Christ on his heavenly throne, shouldn't it be good enough for you too?
On to the arguments that don't pretend to be Biblical:
Now, I typically have instruments in my worship, but I don't HAVE to have them. I do just fine a capella, and I can worship in silence when that's more appropriate. I can even worship when others around me are off key.
This argument of yours -- that the claim of some people to NEED instrumental music proves something -- makes no sense. Don't judge Christ by the hypocrites in the church! Don't judge true worship by what some idiots say! Look instead at scripture, where singing and instrumental music are approved in both the Old and the New Testaments.
Now about pride. Sure, some people are ungoldy proud of their singing or their instrumental music. So what? That doesn't make it any better to be ungodly proud of excluding those God-ordained forms of worship. Shea, the pride you express is not a bit better than the pride of a rock star.
You might ask, why doesn't the New Testament say anything about vocal and instrumental music? And I reply, 1) that's a false assumption, see Rev. 5, and 2) the wide variety of musical worship permitted in the Old Testament pretty well covered the topic.
So far, you have been unable to cite a NT passage that explicitly *forbids* vocal or instrumental music in worship. I have been able to cite one passage in the NT that specifically *accepts* both, and we agree that the OT has a good bit to say about it.
You quoted that, I think,
Please read what I've written before you respond! I never said that singing in worship was not scripturally authorized! Anyway, most of your post reads like a catholic commentary. Your point gets lost in all your words.
I believe that you use the word "freedom" too liberally. The Jews were God's choosen people and were bound to the old law in order to have salvation.
Romans 7:5-6
For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Think about someone in a jail cell, would you consider the bars freedom to them from committing another crime?
Back to the singing, your reference to instruments in Revelations has nothing to do with our worship here on earth. Instruments were first used in church about 700 years after Christ. We are not governed by what God did not forbid, but by what He has authorized.
Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
The only way for us to know what God's will is, is to read it in the Bible. If He told us to have cake and ice cream on the Lord's table, then we would. If he told us to have instruments in worship then we would. The only accompaniment to singing that we are commanded to have was that of the heart!
When you quoted Romans 6, you quoted it out of context. Paul had not yet begun to talk about the old law. He was referring to our sinful human nature.
Neither does your mention of dowry make any sense. If that's what Paul meant, then that's what he would have written. In fact, many of the new christians were rebuked for reverting back to the old traditions, such as circumcision, abstaining from certain foods, or not eating with gentiles (which by the way, Peter himself was rebuked for this!). Who are you to authorize what can be "carried over"!
Which brings me to why I entered this forum today. You asked me to post an order of worship as described in the Bible. The first century church had 5 main areas of worship:
1. The Lord's Supper.
Acts 20:7-On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
2. Praying.
Acts 2:42-They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
3. Singing. (as previously quoted)
Colossians 3:16-Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.
Ephesians 5:19-Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord,
4. Preaching.
Acts 20:7-On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
1 Timothy 4:11-Command and teach these things.
2 Timothy 4:2-Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.
5. Giving.
1 Corinthinans 16:2-On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.
We are also commanded to attend.
Hebrews 10:25-Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
The order in which these things take place makes no difference as long as they are all there for Sunday- the first day of the week. At the particular congregation where I worship, we first have a sort of call to attention and then a welcome to all the visitors along with the announcments. Then worship begins with usually 2 songs and then an opening prayer. We then sing another song in which the word help prepare our minds for the Lord's supper. 6 men then will go up to the table that we have prepared, and one will say some words to also help get our minds ready to take the unleavened bread.
1 Corinthians 11:27-29
Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.
We have another prayer and then the bread is distributed among the christians. The men then go back up and have another prayer for the "fruit of the vine"- we use grape juice. After that is distributed, we then take up a collection. (no titheing)
2 Corinthians 9:7
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
Then a member from the congregation will then go up to read a passage of scripture that partains to the sermon for that day. After that one of the men will preach and then there is an invitation for baptism along with another song.
Acts 2: 37-41
When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
Then we have a closing prayer.
I found that many people like to add to the worship things to make them 'feel better'. They set aside Sunday as the 'Holy Day' and then spend the rest of the week doing just about whatever they feel like instead of living the life of a christian. In order to cover up thier guilty conscience about the things they've done, they make the worship less convicting so that they can feel secure. Like I said before, worship is for God, otherwise, you're just entertaining a crowd.
I found that many people like to add to the worship things to make them 'feel better'. They set aside Sunday as the 'Holy Day' and then spend the rest of the week doing just about whatever they feel like instead of living the life of a christian. In order to cover up thier guilty conscience about the things they've done, they make the worship less convicting so that they can feel secure. Like I said before, worship is for God, otherwise, you're just entertaining a crowd.
I thought about this statement on my way home last night and I thought I might have added a little to make myself understood. I don't mean to lump people together just because their faith might be incorrect according to the Bible. On the contrary, I've known others who live very "righteous" lives according to what they know is true. My grandmother, for example, is a very good person and tries to live her life in the way that she thinks God would have her live. However, all she knows is what her priest, a mere man, and "her heart" has told her.
Jeremiah 17:9
9"The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
She dosen't know God's will at all, and some of the religious pratices she keeps are a direct violation of Christ's teachings! She is entertained by her religious leaders to stir her emotions and make her 'feel good' much in the same way that one may 'feel good' at a concert by a musical group that they like. I'm sorry to say, but according to scripture, my grandmother will be one of those who cry 'Lord, Lord!'
Rosebud, you have set many challenges for me. I feel that I have completed them very well. Now, I have a challenge for you. When you talk about God's word on this site, don't word your responses in such a way that makes people feel that they need a Bible degree in order to understand it at all. I went to a Bible college too, and the Bible really is straight forward and easy to read. If God made it challenging, who then could be saved? All one needs is a hunger and thirst for truth. If they read your responses 'as is' they will give the Bible up as a confusing mass of words! Please speak plainly!
imthefoolonthehill
04-25-2003, 10:37 PM
Shea... Jeez! Take a deep breath... ice your fingers. Then, maybe try and find a few verses that might actually support your point... instead of having absolutely nothing to do with your point.
madbassist99
04-25-2003, 11:53 PM
OK, I know I'm joining this conversation a little late, but Shea, I have to say, I disagree with you entirely. I go to a relatively informal church. Our music is not contemporary christian rock by any means, but it is more upbeat, not just hymns. I take offense to you saying that your way of worship is better than mine in the eyes of God. Do you believe that God thinks better of you because you worship in a traditional style? That's absolute bologna. It's people like you that give Christians a reputation of being intolerant, high - and -mighty people. You can't say that you're way of worshipping is better than mine, or anybody else's. Whether you think so or not, by saying that my form of worship is wrong, you're judging me, and you have no right. If I'm worshipping God, what does it matter if we use electric guitars or just our voices? It doesn't. You can give me all your bible verses that, as fool on the hill said, really don't support your point all that well. I believe that if I am worshipping my God, and doing so in a heartfelt manner, than how can it be wrong.
Also, one other point, maybe contemporary services are designed to bring people who wouldn't enjoy a traditional service into church. For instance, I play bass guitar in my church's praise band. It is certainly aimed at a younger generation, and those people who want something less "boring." I know my goal by playing in this band is to bring some people to Christ who wouldn't otherwise become Christians. I find it unfortunate that they don't appreciate a traditional service as well, but that's not what is important. It's knowing that I helped save someone's life that is important. If you think worshipping in a very strict, traditional form is more important than trying to bring non-christians to Christ, then that's your choice, and I respect that. But don't tell me I'm wrong in what I'm doing. I love praising God, but I also feel it is important to help save other people.
Well, I guess you know my opinion. Thanks for taking the time to hear me rant a little bit.
I'm sorry that you seem to miss my point, but like I said before, if you check your Bible that might help.
Whether you think so or not, by saying that my form of worship is wrong, you're judging me, and you have no right.
I'm sorry also that you feel this way. I did no judging, but if you have a problem with the scriptures that I cited, there's nothing I can do about that.
I take offense to you saying that your way of worship is better than mine in the eyes of God. Do you believe that God thinks better of you because you worship in a traditional style? That's absolute bologna.
If I worshiped in a "traditional style", I would more or less have a ritual service. I worship as close to the first centry church as possible as was described in the Bible. I cannot say that God thinks better of me because of the way that I worship. I do not presume to know the mind of God. All that I can say is what is given to us in God's word. If I agree to the authorization of anything else, then yes, I would presume to know the mind of God.
It's people like you that give Christians a reputation of being intolerant, high - and -mighty people.
Well, then I suppose Paul was high and mighty. Can you show to me where in the Bible Paul and the apostles taught about being tolerant of different beliefs?
Also, one other point, maybe contemporary services are designed to bring people who wouldn't enjoy a traditional service into church. For instance, I play bass guitar in my church's praise band. It is certainly aimed at a younger generation, and those people who want something less "boring." I know my goal by playing in this band is to bring some people to Christ who wouldn't otherwise become Christians. I find it unfortunate that they don't appreciate a traditional service as well, but that's not what is important. It's knowing that I helped save someone's life that is important. If you think worshipping in a very strict, traditional form is more important than trying to bring non-christians to Christ, then that's your choice, and I respect that. But don't tell me I'm wrong in what I'm doing. I love praising God, but I also feel it is important to help save other people.
Though you don't think that my scripture references have any relevence, I'll cite it anyway because it does.
Hebrews 13:8-9
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines...
We cannot bring God down to man's level. The fact that you mentioned "boring" in reference to worship, it shows that you see worship as entertainment. Remember, God is the audience, not people who may or may not find your bass playing appealing. Exactly how do you feel that you've brought someone to Christ by entertaining them?
I'm sure you want to bring people to Christ, but you've got to look at how the apostles brought men to Christ; by teaching, not entertaining.
I know that was just your rant, but I couldn't let that go. Thanks for taking the time to hear my reply.
madbassist99
04-26-2003, 04:26 PM
I may have been a little worked up last night. I really didn't take offense to what you said, I was just ranting. Anyway, I do not find worship boring. It is more than just a form of entertainment for me. What I meant was that for those who do find that type of worship boring, maybe they need something more. It's not necesarily that they want entertainment, but sometimes, for a person to be truly passionate about worship, they need more than hymns. If they are sincere in their worship, then what does it matter if it's not the way you think we should worship? I realize that you're not saying your form of worship is better than mine in the eyes of God, but the way you put it, you made it sound like your way was the right way. All your Bible verses may tell you that that is how we should worship, but they don't convey the same message to me. It is all a matter of interpretation, I suppose.
Also, I am not playing my bass guitar to entertain. If people wanted entertainment, they would go to a rock concert, not a church service, I don't care who they are. I guarentee you there is not many people in the world who would go to church to be entertained. It's a way of telling these people about Christ, and letting them praise and worship him in a way that they find most effective. If they aren't loving worhshipping God, then nothing is getting accomplished. I understand what you're saying, but, unfortunately, I'm not an apostle, and what worked 2000 years ago just isn't going to work today. Worship is a way of coming to the Lord, and it doesn't matter how it's done, as long as it is heartfelt and sincere. Show me a verse that say specifically, not in an indirect manner open to interpretation, that there is only one way we can worship. Unless you can do that, I'm going to have to say that you're wrong.
These were all the verses that I found on unity.
Matthew 23:8
"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
Acts 4:32
All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.
Romans 14:19
Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.
Romans 15:4-5
4For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
5May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, 6so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.
Ephesians 4:3-6
Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Philipians 1:27
Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel
Philipians 2:2
If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose.
Philipians 3:16-17
Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
17Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you.
1 Peter 3:8
Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble.
Especially note 1 Corinthians 1:10. There should be no divisions if we all follow what the Bible teaches instead of adding what we "feel" is right.
maybe they need something more.
How can we need anything more than Christ?!
Hebrews 12:2
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Also look at Matthew 10:35-38
For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[5]
37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
If we are expected to even give up family if they oppose you for Christ's sake, then how much more do we need than Christ himself?
madbassist99
04-27-2003, 08:32 PM
I understand that there is nothing more we need than Christ, the point I'm trying to make (but which obviously isn't getting thru) is that people don't realize that all they need is Christ. If there were a way to get people interested in Christ w/o having to cater to them, that'd be great, but it is ur duty as Christians to bring non Christians to Christ, and if that is an effective way of doing so, than how can it be wrong?
Well, really just a simple Bible study will help. Honestly, the studies that I have been doing on this forum have really helped me out a lot more than music could! My knowledge has grown and my understanding is easier. I am closer to God than before and I've been thanking him for allowing me to join this site! I find that I'm looking for answers to questions that I already knew the answer to. But because I'm talking to people about it I can't just paraphrase the answer in my mind, I have to look it up again and that drives it more to home. Plus, I have the reassurance that everyone can see our conversations so that I can plant the seed of Bible study and question asking in others.
Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
If there were a way to get people interested in Christ w/o having to cater to them, that'd be great, but it is ur duty as Christians to bring non Christians to Christ
We can't force people to be christians. I'm not saying that that's what you're trying to do, but If we've shown them truth and they refuse to accept it then there's nothing more you can do. You've done what God commanded. To keep on doing it and never lose heart dispite the failures that is also what God commanded.
2 Timothy 4:7-8
7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
You never know when you've simply planted a seed that just takes a little while to germinate. ;)
imthefoolonthehill
04-28-2003, 09:46 PM
you also never know when you are annoying the little seeds to death.
Ok, little seed, you obviously have no interest in sincerely studing the Bible because you've said nothing constructive at all. So, what are you doing here except annoying those of us who would like to have a discussion?
Chardata
04-29-2003, 03:16 AM
Ok...let me get this straight...you think that we have to worship in church the traditional style of worship. I see your point of veiw and this is actually a continual debate amougst Christian churches. My church (i play in the church band and my dad is are worship leader) we play a mixture of contemp. music and traditional hymns. We believe that some of the contemp stuff has a powerful message and a strong worship power to them. Check out Michael W. Smith and his worship album. Also see Avalon and their song The Glory. What about 4 Him and Mercy Me. They both have worship albums out. They all have powerful messages and meanings. Joel Engel is the one of the best praise and worship artists (in my opinion) out there. No where in the Bible does it say that a person must sing the old traditional hymns inorder to worship God. In that matter does a person have to SING why not PLAY. I worship when i play my flute. We play beautiful songs and i get caught up with the Spirit of God moving through me and my playing. But does that condemn me?! I don't really think so.
Think about this...you cited earlier that the pharacies were condemned b/c they didn't worship the way Jesus thought was acceptable. He did that b/c they had forgoten the reason why they worshiped not how. They "worshiped" b/c they wanted the people of Isael to see that they were great in God's eyes, but that was not the case. They worshiped becuase they thought they were gaining something for themselves and Jesus was rebuking them because of their intentions behind the worship. Thier heart was not in it.
It really doen't matter how you worship but the reason behind your worship. If you are glorifying God through the songs that Reliant K sings or though Amazing Grace, I don't think God really cares...as long as you are worshiping, loving and glorifying him. Haven't you heard that 'in all things i do i do for the glory of God?' If you live your life with the standard that you are living for the glory of God then you are worshiping Him through your actions/life. You are not at a church singing As the Deer, but you are living your life for God. Worship comes in several different forms...not just one single right form. So did the slaves during the Civil War...when they sang songs to God while they worked in the fields...were they wrong? They couldn't go to church but they worshiped and praised God anyway. The man who wrote Amazing Grace...he was on a ship in a storm before he turned to Christ. He wrote the song/poem when he was a missionary in Africa. He WORSHIPED while he wrote it. Now that is a hymnal...the song wasn't around when Jesus was on the earth nor was it around when the Bible was written! Yet it is still considered to be one of the greatest hymnals of our time. Michael W. Smith and his wife wrote songs that are now considered to be great hymnals...yet he is a contemp. Christian recording artist.
I see what you are getting at and i see where you are coming from. I do believe that the churches are trying to appease the thier public by creating different services for the different styles of worship. I think that may not be the wisest desision in the world but that is my opinion. We have a drum set and we sing old hymn music. Is that wrong? At my church we combine the two into one and i like that much better. Sometimes i wonder if the mega churches are just trying to get more members, appease them and look good, than to actually bring people to Christ. Like i said earlier...this is an issue that is bouncing around the Christian community and thier churches...i think it is more what your style of worship is and how you want to present it to God. IF YOUR HEART IS IN YOUR WORSHIP THAN GOD IS GLORIFIED. ISN'T THAT WHAT REALLY MATTERS?!
I'm not going to beat a dead horse about the instruments in worship. I think I've pretty well covered that. Somewhere else here, I talked about Christian bands. There really is nothing wrong with them so long as it's kept out of a worship service. Same with anyone playing and instrument at all. I play a harp and can play all sorts of hymns, but I usually play at weddings, funerals, restaurants, dinner parties, nursing homes, etc... I never play in a worship service of any kind.
The Bible said to sing in "songs, hymns, and spiritual songs" If someone wrote a song that was biblically accurate 2 months ago, there is no reason not to sing it in a worship service. It's a spiritual song.
Ok...let me get this straight...you think that we have to worship in church the traditional style of worship.
It isn't what I think that's important, it what's pleasing to God. I'm not sure what everyone keeps describing as 'tradition worship' is. I simply go by what's been given to me in the Bible.
Think about this...you cited earlier that the pharacies were condemned b/c they didn't worship the way Jesus thought was acceptable. He did that b/c they had forgoten the reason why they worshiped not how. They "worshiped" b/c they wanted the people of Isael to see that they were great in God's eyes, but that was not the case. They worshiped becuase they thought they were gaining something for themselves and Jesus was rebuking them because of their intentions behind the worship. Thier heart was not in it.
I had a hard time figuring out the point of this statement, but I think that I can help by quoting this verse. If I missed your point please tell me. ;)
Matthew 23:5-12
"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'
8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
imthefoolonthehill
04-29-2003, 08:11 PM
No Shea, you are wrong. I have every interest in studying the Bible.
"Ok, little seed, you obviously have no interest in sincerely studing the Bible because you've said nothing constructive at all. So, what are you doing here except annoying those of us who would like to have a discussion?"
This topic is stupid and irrelevant. I really doubt that God cares if you use contemporary music in a worship service. You are taking a bunch of verses that don't support your point, quoting them, and then arguing until someone agrees with you. As long as they are worshiping God, and not trying to appear holy, they have accomplished the purpose of the worship service.
And Shea... honestly... next time you quote something.... please please please let it support your POINT!
In fact, you have spoken so much, I have lost track of your point. Do you have one? If so, could you spell it out for me?
Ok..... Thank you for asking that question. I have no idea how to word things any different to help you understand, so I'll try to single it out (though I've repeated it many times). My point is to study the Bible and apply the truths to your life!!! Everything a christian needs for salvation is in there!! Spirtual growth, delight in God, rules for worship, rules for life, how to evangelize, the structure of the Lord's church,... EVERYTHING!!! There is no need to improve on God's Word! But I see people doing it all the time by adding traditions from man. How can someone say they follow God but then does something contrary to what He told us to do according to the words of Christ and the apostles!
By the way, I'm sorry about the "little seed" thing. I didn't mean to get snippy, :oops: I was just frustrated because I didn't know how to make things any clearer. Does this general point help or do you want me to go verse by verse to show how their supported by what I've said?
imthefoolonthehill
04-30-2003, 02:13 AM
On my way home this evening, I passed a church building that had a sign posted out front stating their times of service. Not only that, it also stated the type of service that it would be; informal, contemporary, or traditional. My question is, where do they get the athuority to change the worship service other than to do what was commanded of us in the Bible? God set certain rules for us to follow, and if we don't follow them, aren't we guilty of itching ears? (See Tim 4: 2-4) Many people pose the argument that "Well, society changes and we just want to bring the people in the door." So people presume that they can bring God down to the level of society instead of bringing people to God with truth as He commanded.
God doesn't change, so why should our worship to Him have to?
[quote ommited due to length]
He didn't say that if you change and have 3 different types of services that you are OK. So who has the authority to say that these forms of worship are acceptable?
Shea- don't be sorry for being snippy... I started it. :rolleyes: anyways... I never would have guessed that is what your point is... based on your first post... plus... I don't remember you talking about that before now, but thx for clearing things up for the curious.
No problem! I'm glad that helped! :D I thought that was an understood thing. Oh, well! I'm still getting used to Bible study through this medium! :rolleyes:
Chardata
05-04-2003, 08:06 PM
well i'm glad you guys are not tearing eachother's necks out. Sorry...i've been on a band trip for the weekend so i've been wondering what has been going on here. 8) Anyway, you said that everything is in the Bible. I agree, everything Christians need is in the Bible. And yes i do agree that humans/man are adding things to make "tradition" (IE: the Catholic Church...errr...let me rephrase that...some if not most Catholic Churches) Don't kill me! Hear me out. Man's nature is to be repetitive and very mithotical (that is probally how you don't spell it oh well, i'm a horrorable speller anyway :-? ) Ok...we like structure. Think back to when you were in high school... :o You found out where your classes were and then you would find the best path way down the halls to get to them. You would usually do this in the first week or so, of school. Then, from then on you would take that same route for the rest of the year. Don't you do something simular when driving to a friend's house or to work? (pretend there are no traffic back-ups). You are being mithotical. Man/Humans are like that. Tradition is using the same concept. I don't know if that made any sense to you...if it didn't i'm sorry i have no brain functions b/c of my band trip...anyway...i'll stop rambling...
You have to remember that we are not perfect. We can't follow the Bible word for word...we can try and some ppl are better at it than others are, but we are all falty...that's why we have Jesus.
About the music thingy in church...remember that David sang hymns with his stringed instrument. They didn't have churches like we do today but God looked down upon David with love and honor. He loved the songs and hymns that David wrote and sang with his instrument. Also, tamberings, flutes and trumpets are mentioned as instruments of praise. (I'm sorry, i don't remember exactly where but i do remember it!) If the Bible sais that those insturments can be used as a praise and worship tool...then why not use it? So are you saying that we can play our instruments in our homes (or elsewhere) while we worship and not in church? The church is the people not the building...and i know God emphasizes that in the Bible. A building is nothing. I went to a local highschool for awhile inorder to attend church. A highschool does not have pews nor hymnals but the people know the songs and the people are the ones worshiping. That is what a church is...so we can't worship with instruments? We are the church...?
Now please remember...i'm just telling you my POV and my side of the 'argument'. Don't get mad...its what i think...and you are entitled to your own opinion...i respect that.
And I do respect your opinion Chardata, (the word your looking for is methodical). It is in man's nature to be methodical and have a structure. You'll find that the structure is in the Bible. I listed those verses when I was talking to 'Rosebud' (I hope she's Ok, she seem to have vanished. :( )
Which brings me to why I entered this forum today. You asked me to post an order of worship as described in the Bible. The first century church had 5 main areas of worship:
1. The Lord's Supper.
Acts 20:7-On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
2. Praying.
Acts 2:42-They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
3. Singing. (as previously quoted)
Colossians 3:16-Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.
Ephesians 5:19-Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord,
4. Preaching.
Acts 20:7-On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
1 Timothy 4:11-Command and teach these things.
2 Timothy 4:2-Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.
5. Giving.
1 Corinthinans 16:2-On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.
We are also commanded to attend.
Hebrews 10:25-Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
The order in which these things take place makes no difference as long as they are all there for Sunday- the first day of the week. At the particular congregation where I worship, we first have a sort of call to attention and then a welcome to all the visitors along with the announcments. Then worship begins with usually 2 songs and then an opening prayer. We then sing another song in which the word help prepare our minds for the Lord's supper. 6 men then will go up to the table that we have prepared, and one will say some words to also help get our minds ready to take the unleavened bread.
1 Corinthians 11:27-29
Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.
We have another prayer and then the bread is distributed among the christians. The men then go back up and have another prayer for the "fruit of the vine"- we use grape juice. After that is distributed, we then take up a collection. (no titheing)
2 Corinthians 9:7
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
Then a member from the congregation will then go up to read a passage of scripture that partains to the sermon for that day. After that one of the men will preach and then there is an invitation for baptism along with another song.
Acts 2: 37-41
When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
Then we have a closing prayer.
We aren't perfect, but we are commanded to be diligent and hold fast to God's word. We do have Jesus to save us from condemnation because we are fawlty, but its a two way street.
John 12:47-50
"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. 49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. 50I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."
Note verse 50. If we do something contrary to what God commands in the Bible, then how do we know that we are saved? I don't want to "scare" anyone to Christ, I just want truth to be known.
About the music thingy in church...remember that David sang hymns with his stringed instrument. They didn't have churches like we do today but God looked down upon David with love and honor. He loved the songs and hymns that David wrote and sang with his instrument. Also, tamberings, flutes and trumpets are mentioned as instruments of praise. (I'm sorry, i don't remember exactly where but i do remember it!) If the Bible sais that those insturments can be used as a praise and worship tool...then why not use it? So are you saying that we can play our instruments in our homes (or elsewhere) while we worship and not in church? The church is the people not the building...and i know God emphasizes that in the Bible. A building is nothing. I went to a local highschool for awhile inorder to attend church. A highschool does not have pews nor hymnals but the people know the songs and the people are the ones worshiping. That is what a church is...so we can't worship with instruments? We are the church...?
This is something else that I talked about early on too. All the commands that were given in the OT no longer apply.
Romans 7:1-6
Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Actually, if you could please read more of the previous posts on this topic, that would really cut this one shorter. ;) But I think that your mistaking the assembly with the church as people. As christians, we're commanded to have christian lives.
Colossians 3:17
And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Our very lives are a sort of "worship" to God, but we do have commands from Him considering the assembly (as afore mentioned) You're absolutely right though about the church not being the building, but the assembly of the church is actually what is talked about when we talk about a worship service.
Now please remember...i'm just telling you my POV and my side of the 'argument'. Don't get mad...its what i think...and you are entitled to your own opinion...i respect that.
Of course I'm not going to get mad. I'm still getting used to talking to people this way. I'd rather not call this an 'arguement', but more of a discussion designed for learning. Because I'm learning from everyone here, just as I hope your learning from me! :)
Chardata
05-04-2003, 11:21 PM
I see where you are comming from. I think you missunderstood me. The congrigation of ppl IN a church BUILDING is important inorder to learn...life long lessons, Christian lessons, and to learn from God. The ppl who attend the congrigation make up the church. I still stand by my statement: a building is a building and can go nor do anything more. Do you remember that God said he would gather His church up into the clouds. I don't think he's going to uproot the foundation to all the churches in the world. 8) Anyway, i'll talk more...but this is the jist of everything. I'll say more later...maybe after school one day... :-?
Hmm..., I think you misunderstood me too. We can have the assembly where ever we want, the building makes no difference. I once went to a worship service in a Grange Hall. My point is the Bible is specific about what is to take place in a worship service.
Chardata
05-05-2003, 06:51 PM
Ok...i see know. But like i said in my LB post...some things are open to interpritation...This is your view on this topic and i have my own. We are both obviously hard-headed and stuborn in our views so i don't think we will reach an agreement...so i'm making a neutral agreement...we both have our diff. views and that is that...respect them and move on.
I'm sorry that you said that. :( My goal has been to try and show how the Bible is very specific about many things and point of view or interpretation make no difference. Oh well, I guess I'll get better at it as I gain more experience.
Chardata
05-06-2003, 05:50 PM
well...i just got tired. Anyway, i don't agree with you and we aren't getting anywhere!!! So...i hope you see where i'm comming from. Don't forget i have school work to worry about on top of everything else. So...i come here for a break off of school work...i like debating but not after working for class. :P Get what i'm saying?! I hope so. I still respect you're POV! 8)
I do see where your coming from. Please don't compromise your schoolwork just because you feel the need to debate me, I'll still probably say things that you don't agree with though. But don't be afraid to back me up if you do agree! ;)
Chardata
05-07-2003, 01:12 AM
Don't worry...I will! 8)
imthefoolonthehill
05-13-2003, 11:43 PM
I have this urge to make a rude, insulting comment at everyone reading this post...
Chardata
05-15-2003, 10:42 PM
ummmm...ok...please refraign from any violent acts...or...any rude comments...they will just get you into trouble. 8)
Mililalil XXIV
03-16-2006, 12:31 AM
I don't think you'll find a strict description of what worship must be in the bible. The traditional worship style was created by the Catholic Church.
Could you please elaborate on that Admin?
I wanted to post something, but I changed my mind.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.