I'd like thoughts on this! Please!

[Shea]

I want to know what people think of this passage:

2 Timothy 4:2-4
Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

[apstudent]

I think that in other words, this verse is saying that one should be patient with mankind in general, for it is only the nature of mankind to believe and teach things that they want to hear. They will choose not to believe in the teachings of God and will turn to their own myths.

[Shea]

Sorry, I don't know what the LDS story is. :oops:

I like your view though. I've never quite heard it put that way. Patience puts a lot of insight into the great comission at the end of Matthew

28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

(sorry I like to flip between NIV and KJ)

Christ commanded us to teach, but some people, especially new Christians, have so much zeal, that they stab at people with the Bible and don't even have full knowlege.

Just about everyone is stubborn and narrow-minded in some way or other (even good strong moral Christians). So, as I begin my exploration of posting on this index, I will try to do so with as much longsuffering as possible (but even Paul was bold at times).

As the careful instruction goes, I talk to so many people who like to pick and choose which verses they want to follow. When I ask, "Well, what about this verse?" One person actually said "I just don't agree with that."
How sad! :(

To me, living life by the Bible is a lot like baking a cake from scratch. If you omit an ingredient like eggs, the cake won't stick together and runs out all over the place (I know that from experience :rolleyes: ). And though sometimes some of us may get the recipe wrong, with enough "patience and careful instruction", we can eventually get it right.

[SirStefan32]

I want to know what people think of this passage:

2 Timothy 4:2-4
Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.


I think Paul is telling us all that the doctrine is very important. People don't like what the Bible is saying, so they try to change it and make it fit their own personal agenda. Thus we get all the cults that we have.

[Shea]

I agree, but couldn't it have to do with denominationalism and not just cults?

(I'll try and respond to your answer as quickly as I can (I'm getting married in 5 days! :o ))

[imthefoolonthehill]

Congradulations!

that said, I think that Paul is instructing Timothy (and us all) to act now, but not to expect immediate results. Paul is warning Timothy that people fundementally don't want to listen to the truth. They cannot be made to listen by an impatient, forceful man, but can only be shown the truth by a caring, patient, and perhaps loving instructer.


That is my opinion.

[RoseBud]

Shea, you said:

>To me, living life by the Bible is a lot like baking a cake from scratch. If >you omit an ingredient like eggs, the cake won't stick together and runs >out all over the place (I know that from experience ).

If you omit eggs from a cake batter, you *do not* get a squishy mess. Cake is just a refinement of bread, and I've made bread without eggs. If you made a cake *mix* omitting eggs, it would be dry, and might become scorched. Eggs contribute moisture, and they contribute protein to help trap the bubbles. So your eggless cake might also be flat. But no, it won't overflow the pan, have a doughy middle, or any such thing. So much for your "experience."

I remember you commenting elsewhere about people claiming to know what they don't. I accuse you of speaking out of ignorance about cake baking.

[Shea]

Then what made the cake spill out all over the oven?

But my point anyway is you can't pick and choose which scriptures you feel like following. It jeopardizes your salvation which is more inportant than baking!

[RoseBud]

Shea,

I don't know what other errors you made in baking. I can only assert that the lack of eggs was not the reason for your batter spilling out of the oven. I'm inclined to believe that you have never baked anything, let alone a eggless flop. I think you might have made it up.


Yes, playing Bible roulette, and the risk of missing out on salvation, is more important than baking. But I don't take your word for that either. I read the Bible for myself, and funny thing, I find that YOU are guilty of ignoring parts of the Bible you don't like.


Among the fables that have crept in since the New Testament was written, list "Don't sing, and don't have instrumental music in your worship." That certainly tickes itching ears! It also appeases the people who can't carry a tune in a bucket, and lets them think themselves superior.

If you want to know what the passage means, look at it in context. More about that in my next post.

[RoseBud]

If you want to know what the passage means, look at it in context.

Paul is writing to Timothy. Paul was formerly "a Pharisee among Pharisees, a Jew above other Jews."

Timothy was born outside Isreal, and only Jewish on the maternal side. According to Jewish law, you get Jewishness through your mother, so Timothy was as Jewish as anyone could require.

For some reason, perhaps the insistance of his Goy father, Timothy was not circumcized. Paul made the arrangements to correct this. (See Acts 16:1-3.)

Timothy accompanied Paul on part of his travels. (See II Cor. 1:1.) Timothy may have been one of the four men "which have a vow on them" who were with Paul the last time in Jerusalem, and whose ceremonial purification Paul subsidized to prove that he did not teach throwing away
the Old Testament.

The book of II Timothy is the last preserved letter of Paul.

[RoseBud]

>1 I charge thee therefore before God,

I order you therefore, with God as both witness and judge over you

>and the Lord Jesus Christ,

Not only God the Father, but also God the Son, is watching you.

>who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

don't expect to con THIS judge with a winsome smile!

>2 Preach the word;

Preach the Scriptures, in their entirety, nothing else.

>be instant in season, out of season;

Be willing and prepared to preach when it is conveneient, and when it isn't.

>reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

We have three verbs that seem to mean the same thing. Can we make distinctions between them?

Reprove = confute, admonish. It is variously translated as convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove.

Rebuke = tax upon, (ie) censure (or) admonish, (by implication) forbid. Translated straightly charge, rebuke.

Exhort =to call near, invite, invoke (by means of imploration, hortation, or consolation). Translated as beseech, call for, (be of good) comfort, desire,
(give) good exhort(ation), intreat, pray.

So, there are some differences, but they are slight. Therefore we would do best to treat them like synonyms with but slightly different meanings.

>reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

they must be done with patience, and with (genuine) doctrine. Impatience and private opining are not going to succeed.

>3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine

A time will come when people won't care what is true, when they will confuse false doctrine with gospel.

>but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers,
>having itching ears;

It isn't the teachers who have itchy ears, but the self-styled scholars. People will look for pastors who tell them what they want to hear, not pastors who tell them the Gospel.

>4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth,

We see this today -- rehearse scripture about homosexual acts, and be accused of hate speech. The standard is no longer "what's true?" but "what makes me feel good, what props up my flabby self-esteem?"

>and shall be turned unto fables.

People will prefer to believe in what ever suits their fancy, rather than is what is logical, what is supported by evidence, what can be tested and measured. Celebrity sponsorship and "political correctness" will matter more than facts.

>5 But watch thou in all things,

No matter what comes, stay awake and alert, like a good security guard.

>endure afflictions,

Don't stop because thing get hard or people pick on you.

>do the work of an evangelist,

do the hard work of carrying the Gospel

>make full proof of thy ministry.

Build up evidence that your ministry is effective. The evidence is individual changed lives, not numbers who respond to altar calls.

Then Paul begins to talk about himself. Paul is the example of an apostle to God, and to the disappointment of my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, Peter is again left in Paul's dust.

[Shea]

Shea,

I don't know what other errors you made in baking. I can only assert that the lack of eggs was not the reason for your batter spilling out of the oven. I'm inclined to believe that you have never baked anything, let alone a eggless flop. I think you might have made it up.


Yes, playing Bible roulette, and the risk of missing out on salvation, is more important than baking. But I don't take your word for that either. I read the Bible for myself, and funny thing, I find that YOU are guilty of ignoring parts of the Bible you don't like.


Among the fables that have crept in since the New Testament was written, list "Don't sing, and don't have instrumental music in your worship." That certainly tickes itching ears! It also appeases the people who can't carry a tune in a bucket, and lets them think themselves superior.

If you want to know what the passage means, look at it in context. More about that in my next post.

I don't have time right now to comment on your biblical references, but please don't accuse without knowing all the facts. The cake that I referred to about "knowing from expeirience" is not one that I ever said was mine. I did not want to admit that it was my mother's. I happen to be a pretty decent cook for being self-taught - I can whip up a batch of nice currant scones for you if you like!

And although I may not go anywhere with my bucket, I can carry a tune in it! In fact, I play several instruments, mind you never in worship. My specialty is harp and I along with my entire family tends to be musically inclined. As to the instruments in worship please refer to my post in the thread about where the authority lies.

For someone who is so in tune with the Bible, I find your posts full of hautiness and spite! Where is your humble spirit?

Ephesians 4:2
Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.

[Shea]

>reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

they must be done with patience, and with (genuine) doctrine. Impatience and private opining are not going to succeed.


I thank you for breaking down the passage! You did a very good job! But please heed your own words here. You've shown very little patience with me and tend to be pretty opinionated.


It isn't the teachers who have itchy ears, but the self-styled scholars. People will look for pastors who tell them what they want to hear, not pastors who tell them the Gospel.

Did you realize that Christ condemed religious titles?

Matthew 23:5-12
But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 6They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, "Rabbi, Rabbi.' 8But you, do not be called "Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

There are not to be titles only positions in the Lord's church. Instead, we are to be called brothers and sisters in Christ.

Matthew 12:46-50
While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47Then one said to Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You."
48But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" 49And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! 50For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."

[Chardata]

We need to encourage, help and teach others especailly the young. That was I think it was John, who was trying to teach to Timothy and others. It's kinda like what he said is, don't let others look down upon you b/c you are young. John sais to be strong b/c your young for the young and he sais to encourage and teach the young b/c they are inexperianced. The word "rebuke" is more like saying that i wouldn't do this b/c it's wrong and it could hurt you, rather than actually yelling at a person. This can also be taken as encouragement...to do right and learn from other's mistakes.

[Shea]

Hey, Chardata! Were you talking about the verse, or something somebody said? I definately agree with you about no looking down on the young. I was one of those who learned from my mom's mistakes because she would "rebuke" me instead of yell at me. But the young can also do the teaching! Just by some examples they set naturally before peer pressure.

[HotDog75]

Hot Diggity Dog
Down in the South
We like to lick our stomachs
and smell our bellys
Yeeeee-Haw

[DumbLikeAPoet]

Why don't you use instruments in worship?

1 Chronicles 23

1 When David was old and full of years, he made his son Solomon king over Israel.
2 He also gathered together all the leaders of Israel, as well as the priests and Levites. 3 The Levites thirty years old or more were counted, and the total number of men was thirty-eight thousand. 4 David said, "Of these, twenty-four thousand are to supervise the work of the temple of the LORD and six thousand are to be officials and judges. 5 Four thousand are to be gatekeepers and four thousand are to praise the LORD with the musical instruments I have provided for that purpose."
6 David divided the Levites into groups corresponding to the sons of Levi: Gershon, Kohath and Merari.

God Bless,
Jonus


[/b]

[Chardata]

thank you.

[Shea]

Well,... Do you mind if I refer you to the topic "Where does the authority lie?" Especially to my conversation with Rosebud on page 3. ;)

[DumbLikeAPoet]

So lemme see if i understand your position. You believe that since musical instruments are not mentioned in the NT that you can not use them in worship. Correct?

A little Information on me just so everyone know is that I am Apostolic Pentecostal. I beleive in speaking in tounges. I do NOT beleive in the trinity. I believe in modesty. Ok well I think that just about covers it.

Jonus

[Shea]

Yep! ;) that's pretty much it. The church that I attend has a sort of motto, 'We speak where the Bible speaks and we're silent where the Bible's silent'. We try and follow as closely as possible to NT worship. Here's one of the scriptures to help you understand why;

Galatians 1:6-10
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
10Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

To be eternally condemned is obviously a very serious thing! And Paul himself was ready to be subjected to that if he was ever to preach a different gospel! If the teachings of the Bible do not change after Paul, then they do not change. In fact to follow the basic teachings of the Bible is even easier today (at least in the U.S.) than it ever was for the Apostles and evangelists during these biblical times where persecution and death was a common thing for those who spread the gospel. So why should we go and change something that those people would risk their lives and die for us to have? (Not to mention that it the Word that God gave us!)

To respond to your other statements, Poet, I'm somewhat familiar with the Pentecostal church, but I don't know what it means to be an "Apostolic Pentecostal". From what I understand, the only Apostles were the twelve, plus Paul, who looked on Jesus after His resurection. I beleive that they were the only ones who carried the role of "Apostle."

I'm still studying speaking in tounges, but this is what I have so far,

Acts 2:4-12
All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" 12Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?"

I don't want to sound insulting, but can you speak in a foreign language without having prior knowlege? And are you using your "tougue" to spread the gospel? From a Biblical standpoint that's the only way that I can see it being useful. When I was in the Catholic church I went to the liberal services and there was a girl there who "spoke in tounges". All that I heard was a lot of gibberish. If it was a language, it was one that no one else there knew, and besides, all the people there were supposed to have been believers, so what good did it do?

As far as the trinity goes, since this is not a biblical term, I can understand that. But the Godhead is a biblical term. Do you beleive in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit? (Just trying to clarify ;) )

And your belief in modesty is very admirable! :D (not to mention scriptural ;) )

[DumbLikeAPoet]

I will address your questions first and then continue trying to clarify the "music issue".

Here is a page with information about tounges. http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/tonguelearned.htm

The term apostolic comes from us trying to follow what was written by the apostles.

As far as the trinity goes. I do not beleive that there are three seperate/distinct people in the Godhead. Even the Bible tells us that there are not.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

I do believe in the Holy Ghost and the Father but I believe that they are role, for lack of a better word, of the God.



Yep! that's pretty much it. The church that I attend has a sort of motto, 'We speak where the Bible speaks and we're silent where the Bible's silent'. We try and follow as closely as possible to NT worship. Here's one of the scriptures to help you understand why;

OK well I'm glad that I understood your position correctly. As far as I can tell the NT does not specify whether there should be music in worship or not correct? And if I am correct should we not stick with what was acceptable in the OT?

Jonus

[Esther]

I just thought i'd browse through this forum and see what kind of things are discussed in them. I have found that Shea, you go girl, you keep studying the word of God and examining it. I love to find such an open and hungry spirit for the Word of God. I was excited to see that you like to dig into the Word, and not just read the parts that agree with your lifestyle. Way too often I catch people, myself included, reading the Word, examining the parts that fit my life. You go Girl!
I also have a couple of things to add that might possibly help a couple of you understand why some churches choose not to worship with instruments, and why it doesn't matter if you do, or do not. In the old testament, Instruments are mentioned a lot in worship, but in the new Testament, it says "sing and make music in your heart to God" without the mention of music. Either way, Jesus had told us to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. He also said to worship Him in Spirit and in truth. So, whether you use instruments, or you dance to singing, your worship should be pure, and come from the heart. That is true worship, and I think that is much more important than any technicality that you may find.
Also, I want to give an illustration of the Trinity that you may understand. Yes, in fact, there are 3 parts. But the three parts are one. As you may know this may be hard to imagine, but there is a good illistration of this through the use of an egg. If you take 1 egg, you can see that it is made up of three parts: the shell, the yolk, and that white goop (I do not know what that is called). These three parts are separate, each having it's own identity, but are also 1, making an egg. Without eachother, it is not complete.

well thanks you guys-
Jennifer, 17

[Shea]

Hey, thanks Esther for your support!! You posted that as I was writing my reply to Poet so, keep that in mind because I'm going to post it as is.

Ok,... to begin. Well, much of what the author said in that article you gave to me was a bit out of context and many of his points were in direct conflict with other scriptures in the Bible, especially the passage that I quoted for you in Acts 2.

So, lets take a step back, and look at the whole picture. What was the purpose of the gift of toungues in the NT? Just after Christ's resurrection, the NT obviously hadn't been written yet. So, how could people believe that what the Apostles were teaching was the truth? They had miraculous signs to confirm it and one of them was speaking in tongues. Not to mention that was a great way to spread the gospel to those who spoke a foriegn language as in Acts 2.


Mark 16:20
Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.


1 Corinthians 14:22
Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.

Once the NT was written there was no need for these signs any longer.


1 Corinthians 13:8-10
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

The Bible is simply all that we need; there is no more gospel to tell.

So, what about these spiritual gifts? Speaking in tongues was one, so was miraculous healing as with Peter in Acts 3:1-10 where he caused the lame man to walk. Please understand that I don't want to sound insulting or impertant, but have you ever seen something like that happen today? Truly??? It's recorded in the Bible that the Apostles could pass the spiritual gift on to others, for example:


Acts 19:6
When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

But nowhere does it mention that anyone but these Apostles were able to pass it on to anyone else. There simply wasn't a need once the NT was written.

Ok, now for the Godhead. I didn't understand how the verses you quoted said that there were not three people. From what I gather, you beleive that Jesus is also the Holy Spirit and the Father, that they are just roles of His. (forgive me if I just rephrased your point.) So, how do you get around Christ's prayer in Gethsemane? Who was he praying to? If the Son was also the Father then the entire chapter of John 17 makes absolutely no sense! Also John 14 wouldn't make much sense either:


John 14:20
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

If Jesus is also the Father, then this verse would mean that we are Jesus! (literally) This idea also does not work with the Holy Spirit because of verse 26 of the same chapter:


John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

If Jesus was the Holy Spirit, why wouldn't He just refer to it as "I"? In fact the whole verse is refrencing three seperate people, the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and the diciples.

Ok, now for the the OT. Romans 6,7,and 8 pretty much cover how we are not bound to the old law any longer. Also Galatians is a good book to refer to. Some of the NT Christians were trying to bind the OT rules on themselves (keep in mind that many of them were converted Jews), for which Paul admonished them.


Galatians 4:9-11
9But now that you know God--or rather are known by God--how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.


Galatians 5:1-4
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

The OT is given to us to teach us and show us God's power.


Galatians 3:24-25
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

But all the rules that were bound to the OT people do not apply to us.


Colossians 2:14
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

(and just to clarify, singing is acceptable, but not instruments) ;)

[DumbLikeAPoet]

I had a nice post written out for you but apparently my session timed out and I couldnt get it back...... Well I have to go on vacation so I'm sorry but we'll have to get back to this discussion in a few weeks :)

Jonus

[Shea]

Sometimes that happens to me too, so if I have a lot to say, I'll write it in notepad and then copy and paste it. That seems to work. ;) Hope you have fun on your vacation! :D

[Theshizznigg]

The bible is an awesome book in the fact that it will explain all, to those who look for the information and can understand the words.

I believe that several verses of the bible tie into each other, and for a better part give propechy of things that would happen in the future.

I can't remember the particular verse in Isiahah I believe, where it makes reference to the twin towers, and how the world would change when they've fallen.

The bible truly is an amazing book in this sense, because everytime you read it, you learn something new. Even from versus you've read previously.

Sorry if this is particulary badly spelt, I'm in a hurry.

[Mililalil XXIV]

>2 Preach the word;

Preach the Scriptures, in their entirety, nothing else.

Then Paul begins to talk about himself. Paul is the example of an apostle to God, and to the disappointment of my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, Peter is again left in Paul's dust[/B].


The above says nothing of Scripture! That is your own insertion. The Word of GOD is given by the SPIRIT as needed. It is both oral and written. It includes the Inspiration of the SPIRIT called the Testimony of the Saints, also called the SPIRIT of Prophecy. It is clothed in the material demonstration of Works of the Faith, and in Customs of the Tradition that Paul passed on in many unrecorded words.

Paul neither here nor elsewhere ever left Peter, his Apostolic Superior, in any dust. Peter's feet were washed by the LORD and stood firm on the ROCK until they were anchored firmly to the Cross. That sort of extrabiblical hogwash of yours is certainly not the secret ingredient for the Unleavened Bread of Communion. You can have your cake and eat it as well (otherwise, it rots and is wasted), but will you have your say and believe it too?