Do you give beggars money?

[jajdude]

Hm. Guess I'm on a roll.

This is a question, again. I almost always give beggars something, a few coins. Not to make me feel good. I am concerned. I was near homeless once, yes with all my intelligence and education it can happen. I am not a proud man, I feel sad for our world. I feel sad for those who wave off beggars.

So, give or no?

[Delta40]

If you don't give money to others less fortunate than yourself to make you feel good why pity those who don't give? What are they missing out on?

[billl]

If you don't give money to others less fortunate than yourself to make you feel good why pity those who don't give? What are they missing out on?

Jajdude said that they DO give money to those less fortunate.

[Delta40]

1 Jajude DOES give to beggars
2 Jajude DOESN'T give to make her/him feel good
3 Jajude feels SAD for people who DON'T give.

4 Delta asks if giving to beggars is NOT about making you feel good about yourself, what can people possibly be missing out on if they DON'T give

[OrphanPip]

Ah, well one problem I have is that often many of the beggars in Montreal are professional beggars. They have homes but they go out with a gimmick to get money off of people, usually in tourist areas. Some outright lie, like begging for change for the bus in the subway.

I have no problem with supporting housing and public aid programs. More often than not you do more harm by providing them the money they need for drugs and alcohol. Instead, I would rather funnel, through my taxes, money into a more efficient social security system.

[billl]

I think it would be about recognizing something about how sometimes the course of events has unbalanced effects; "There but for the grace of god," etc., that sort of thing. "Trying to feel good about ourselves" can be an ugly label. I think that someone who does things to support their children or relatives or the wounded from a familiar tragedy could even be told, "you are doing that to feel good about yourself...", but I think that sounds pretty negative, and selfish. There might be higher motives.

If you don't have enough money, or if you are very sure that the beggars are actually just scamming people, then it'd make sense to give money only in rare circumstances, etc. Personally, I consider my own finances, the reported employment situation in my area, and my best judgment of the appearance of events--and if I've already given out some money, I just pass that information along with my "refusal".

If you want Jajdude or someone to explain what the motives might be in the cases that came to Jajdude's mind, I think that's a little demanding, we all have our particular circumstances, and the particular circumstances of others that we are faced with. If every beggar you encounter is a crook, or someone who will never learn better without tough love, or something, well, that's a generalization, and ends up as ugly of an approach as any other.

But if you are saying "what makes you feel good in a self-satisfying way???" so that you can point out some imagined hypocrisy, or wonder what is in it for you, well, that's just playing games with reality, and presuming the worst in others.

[billl]

Ah, well one problem I have is that often many of the beggars in Montreal are professional beggars. They have homes but they go out with a gimmick to get money off of people, usually in tourist areas. Some outright lie, like begging for change for the bus in the subway.

I ended up sitting next to a guy on the subway who was a professional beggar (supposedly...), and he explained to me what wonderful sums he made each week, etc. Frankly, I couldn't avoid hearing about it, it was a point of pride, or spite, or something for him to corner me on the point. The guy smelled awful, but maybe it was just for effect. In any case, that was a guy I never gave money to again (if I even did that time, I can't remember. I probably did once, but I always thought to myself that the dude was an a-hole, and avoided him.)

[Delta40]

I'm not questioning the OP's motives. I don't give a hoot frankly. I am simply asking the OP, based on their own statement what other people who don't give to beggars (for whatever reason) are missing out on. I'm genuinely interested to know their opinion.

[billl]

Sorry for typing about the issue beforehand. (But I don't see how the OP's motives are so easily removed from their response.)

[jajdude]

Nah, perhaps I worded it badly. I don't feel bad for the nongivers. I feel bad for the waveoffers, and you can see the lookdownuponers everywhere. Talk to a waiter or waitress, or other service people. I despise the lousy treatment some get. I do not really feel bad for anyone, but if a man needs to eat, I'd like to help him out with a dollar, while I go spend 30 in a bar.

[Delta40]

lol. What about if a man needs to drink while you go spend 30 on a meal?

[SeekWithYourI's]

I've been a beggar on the road. It was when I was homeless and out of work. I always give because I hope that one of them really need it like I did.

[Scheherazade]

I don't claim to be able to "see through" a person but it really depends on the person who is doing the begging.

Children I cannot pass by without giving anything... Grown ups, I am more reserved with but I usually give in and give something (never advice, though) - unless the person looks rather dubious.

Even if they use the money to buy alcohol or whatever, it is their problem, in my opinion. I just consider myself as helping someone asking for help.

[qimissung]

I give sometimes. I don't think there are many professional beggars in Dallas, although I could be wrong. They may very certainly have an addiction problem. But just in case I will give.

I don't actually see very many "beggars" anymore, although I think the homeless population is just as big as it ever was. After the downtown area started undergoing gentrification the upscale population that was moving into the area complained that the homeless people were stinkin' up the place, and urinating in public, and so the big-hearted city of Dallas built them a state-of-the-art homeless shelter. Most agencies have an office there or offer services. There's even a little library. It is really nice, and I think it's since that was built that I've seen fewer people out on the streets begging.

[The Atheist]

So, give or no?

Not only have I never given a cent to one, I call the cops on them as begging is both illegal and unnecessary in NZ. We have a well-defined welfare state that provides sufficient money for people to live on.

The only beggars I've seen in NZ have been alcoholics or drug addicts.

[JuniperWoolf]

I haven't seen many beggers in my life because the majority of Alberta towns are too small. The first time was in Toronto at age seventeen on a student exchange program. It was pretty nuts, there were like fifty people asking for our money outside of the hockey hall of fame. The Guelph kids who brought us blew them right off, but all of the Grande Cache kids were pretty floored. They would be like "so where do you sleep? have you always been homeless? does anyone give you food, like a soup kitchen? do you ride around on the CN trains?" My friend Sean took a touristy picture with one guy and we all got into a lot of **** from the Guelph teacher who was in charge of us for talking to the homeless people (the guy was a jerk, by the way). I met my first hooker that trip too, a whole bunch of 'em. Good times.

I've seen maybe four more homeless people in Edmonton, which isn't a lot because Whyte ave was my haunt (my school and place were on that street and I had no reason to go anywhere else). I gave them all money, except for one guy because I didn't have any in my wallet.

[OrphanPip]

Learning not to see the homeless is a skill you learn early in the city.

Many homeless are mentally ill, they often, for whatever reason, are unwilling to seek aid from the system. I feel for them, but I think they are still better helped by donating to organizations that provide food and services directly.

I also feel bad for street kids, who are often homeless because of abusive homes, which they would legally be required to return to if they went to support systems. There's a good organization run by a priest here that provides no questions asked services to street kids. I've given money to them regularly when I see their fundraisers. They had a good one last month where people were sponsored to live on the street for a week. Like how charity marches work.

[Delta40]

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/delta40/images-1-1.jpg

[OrphanPip]

I saw one once with a sign that said "Smile if you masturbate."

[Lokasenna]

If I am honest, I very rarely give money to beggars. The main reason for this is that I am student, and thus have significant financial worries of my own. However, there is also the context of the situation.

When I lived in Leeds, on my 45 minute walk across the city to my university, I would encounter around 6-10 beggars. How could I prioritize who to give to? If you consider that I walk back along the same route, then that's actually 12-20 times I have to walk past a beggar on a daily basis. Even if I were to give just a few small coins, it would mount up considerably.

Now that I'm in Durham, the situation is rather different. You rarely see a beggar here. There are, however, a couple of people who hawk The Big Issue - normally something I prefer to outright begging. However, the fellow I usually encounter, who takes up residence on Elvet Bridge, seems to spend most of his time playing with his expensive iPhone. Now, I can't afford an iPhone - and I'm damn well not giving money to someone who can. If he chooses to spend money on an expensive luxury item instead of food and drink, then I'm afraid I have little sympathy.

[jajdude]

lol. What about if a man needs to drink while you go spend 30 on a meal?

Not likely. But I once invited a guy in for grub and a drink. He was happy that day.

[wessexgirl]

If I am honest, I very rarely give money to beggars. The main reason for this is that I am student, and thus have significant financial worries of my own. However, there is also the context of the situation.

When I lived in Leeds, on my 45 minute walk across the city to my university, I would encounter around 6-10 beggars. How could I prioritize who to give to? If you consider that I walk back along the same route, then that's actually 12-20 times I have to walk past a beggar on a daily basis. Even if I were to give just a few small coins, it would mount up considerably.

Now that I'm in Durham, the situation is rather different. You rarely see a beggar here. There are, however, a couple of people who hawk The Big Issue - normally something I prefer to outright begging. However, the fellow I usually encounter, who takes up residence on Elvet Bridge, seems to spend most of his time playing with his expensive iPhone. Now, I can't afford an iPhone - and I'm damn well not giving money to someone who can. If he chooses to spend money on an expensive luxury item instead of food and drink, then I'm afraid I have little sympathy.

Might it have been because of this Loka? I have a lot of time for TBI and ususlly buy the magazine from them. http://www.bigissue.com/news.php?newsid=84

[Lokasenna]

Might it have been because of this Loka? I have a lot of time for TBI and ususlly buy the magazine from them. http://www.bigissue.com/news.php?newsid=84

Oh dear, that's ridiculous. It's somehow even worse if the bigwigs are doing it - as if owning an iPhone is more important than food.

To go back to my example, two weeks ago I spent the day doing various jobs in different building all over Durham. Over the course of 6 hours, I crossed Elvet Bridge 4 times. And everytime I crossed, the man was utterly absorbed in his gizmo - he just sat there, periodically shouting "Big Issue!" without once looking up from the screen. Again, this really isn't inducing me to care much.

[Delta40]

I buy the Big Issue here in Australia. My vendor has recently purchased an iphone through hard work and also because he gets the crap beaten out of him on a regular basis. he suffers from PTSD and has an ongoing battle with alcholism but he works Monday to Friday in all weather.

I don't grudge anyone who is making an effort to help themselves. Sometimes that isn't much - not as much as society would like but too bad. Everyone walks this earth one step in front of the other. One either helps others on their journey or they don't.

[SeekWithYourI's]

[QUOTE=The Atheist;1030237]We have a well-defined welfare state that provides sufficient money for people to live on.

Bah Humbug...
Aren't you afraid of the chains your forging uncle?

Have you wondered why the homeless population has a disproportional amount of Vet's in it? The answer is because the system provided for the welfare of the veteran is bloated and broken. We ask our solders to live in the dirt hole on a cold mountain slope and kill the enemy. And when the enemy turns your friends into puffs of pink mist they send you home to some place where the issue of the day is will the jerk behind the counter get my order right this morning.
Imagine someone you love, who makes you laugh and can hurt you with just words being cut to squirting masses of flesh before your eyes. imagine that image returning to you without notice. It can be a loud noise or a harshly shouted comment that brings it on. your mind gives the image the attention to finally deal with it this time, but it doesn't resolve.
The VA system requires sometimes five years to get through if your working on getting through. When everyday is a balance between madness and sanity you need a little luck. I found hope in the face of a woman who handed me a sandwich and asked me to sit with her while we watched the crowd go by. We never spoke more but that was enough to get me on the way home.
You never know when you touch the heart of your fellow human. So I always try.

[Propter W.]

I used to. Now I've learnt that many if not most of the beggars in my city are forced to beg by human traffickers. They are brought here with promises of a better life. Whatever identification they have is taken from them. They are housed in dilapidated buildings often without water or heating. They receive a little food and drinking water. They don't get to keep the money they receive during the day.

Now instead I buy them food, soup, drinks. Last week I took a homeless woman in. Found her some new clothes, washed her old ones, let her take a shower and cooked her a nice, hearty meal and gave her a matress to sleep on. She really appreciated it.

[The Atheist]

Have you wondered why the homeless population has a disproportional amount of Vet's in it?

That may be the case where you are, but it certainly isn't here, so your post doesn't really apply.

[Delta40]

Veterans affairs are very good in Australia. They get what is known as Gold Card Treatment and have health entitlements and accesses to services inc. homecare for the rest of their lives.

We do however have homeless people. It is fair to say that each culture has its social problems and the result for many is homelessness.

To put homelessness in a basket and give one straight forward black and white opinion is like protecting ourselves from its stench with a muffler when we walk by.

My ex neighbour drank like a fish then beat his wife. but he worked and didn't live on the street so everyone kept quiet. This thread attacks the homeless. the so called 'sins' of the homeless.....blah blah. Beggars shouldn't stink, they should make food and shelter a priority over drink and drugs....yeah, yeah. Perhaps they should speak nice too.

It lectures them and condemns them for screwing up somewhere along the line. Their desires, as base as the next man's are unacceptable once they are out on the street. To be a nice beggar is to be what? Beggars are the symbols of the sick, dysfunctional society we are part of.

They elicit the hypocritical morality that we use as a defence when they are in our line of vision. We can't kick the man at the top, so lets kick the guy on the **** heap.

So here is a sweeping genralization about Lit-Netters. This thread is just a way for people to salve their own conscience or sustain their sanctimony by making sweeping generalizations about the homeless. As if they ever knew any! I'm sure the experience of the homeless person is a very different view from their side of the road.

[The Atheist]

To put homelessness in a basket and give one straight forward black and white opinion is like protecting ourselves from its stench with a muffler when we walk by.

As far as our countries are concerned, I can't agree with you. Expect for self-choice, nobody need live on the street.


My ex neighbour drank like a fish then beat his wife. but he worked and didn't live on the street so everyone kept quiet.

If you're saying people stayed quiet because he was a worker, I think you'd be wrong. When an unemployed, drunken scumbag was beating his 8-month pregnant wife in my area, only one person rang the police, despite at least 6 families living in situations where they must have heard the cries for help.

Those people didn't stay quiet because the guy was a worker, they stayed quiet because people don't like to get involved.


This thread attacks the homeless. the so called 'sins' of the homeless.....blah blah. Beggars shouldn't stink, they should make food and shelter a priority over drink and drugs....yeah, yeah. Perhaps they should speak nice too.

You seem to be making mistaken association here, because I don't care how they smell or speak and those things are irrelevant. I will state that if they choose to spend their welfare payments on booze and drugs rather than food, I am not going to have any sympathy whatsoever for them, nor apologise for saying it


It lectures them and condemns them for screwing up somewhere along the line. Their desires, as base as the next man's are unacceptable once they are out on the street. To be a nice beggar is to be what? Beggars are the symbols of the sick, dysfunctional society we are part of.

Sorry, but that is complete nonsense.

That sick, dysfunctional society that casts them out just happens to be the same sick, dysfunctional society that provides them with food, free medical care, shelter and money for them to indulge their desires.


They elicit the hypocritical morality that we use as a defence when they are in our line of vision. We can't kick the man at the top, so lets kick the guy on the **** heap.

That's one of the stranger comments I've read in some time. It's quite funny that when tall-poppy-cutting is a national pastime, you're claiming the opposite happens.


So here is a sweeping genralization about Lit-Netters. This thread is just a way for people to salve their own conscience or sustain their sanctimony by making sweeping generalizations about the homeless. As if they ever knew any! I'm sure the experience of the homeless person is a very different view from their side of the road.

It isn't a sweeping generalisation when it's true, unfortunately, and I'm very confident that there are no street people in NZ or Australia who do not choose to be homeless.

I am curious, however, to find out how many street people you know yourself? Does it make a difference being personally involved?

I'm quite happy to take the word of the Auckland City Mission's staff that spend every waking hour working with and helping the city's homeless on what makes people homeless, without feeling I'd gain extra insight by talking to a zombie.

[Delta40]

LMAO @ Atheist. Yawn. I'd reply but I'm too busy tossing coins to beggars in NZ. I'd send you some money but I'm scared you'll buy a sheep!

[JuniperWoolf]

And everytime I crossed, the man was utterly absorbed in his gizmo - he just sat there, periodically shouting "Big Issue!" without once looking up from the screen.

Huh. What a weird world.

[hampusforev]

I'm quite jaded and cynical in this respect. It feels like one of those pointless exercises where one only buys one's bad conscience free. I tend to only give money to really persistent homeless dudes, there's this guy in my subway who plays an accordion for AT LEAST 13 hours a day, now that I'm behind. I try to give him some of my change. Sweden's equivalent to The Big Issue is very good, so when there's something in there that I want to read, I'll buy them.

[The Atheist]

...I tend to only give money to really persistent homeless dudes, there's this guy in my subway who plays an accordion for AT LEAST 13 hours a day, now that I'm behind...

Busking for your money isn't quite the same as begging, in my opinion. If I find a bloke entertaining, I'll give him a deuce anytime, no matter what he's wearing, how much he smells, drinks or shoots up.

I did just that in Wellington last year. The kids and I were taking in the Cuba St Fountain (http://www.wellingtonnz.com/image_library/arts_culture/cuba_street) and some old derelict had an old acoustic guitar and was playing the most amazing version of an Ozzy Osbourne song that I really like. I chucked him a fiver and wished him luck.

[Delta40]

My brother was a busker and on a Friday or Saturday night and he could make $300 in four hours. It's actually a worthwhile job - His wife works 45 hours a week to put the kids through school and pay the mortgage while he does what he loves and then drinks and gambles it all away.... I agree with Atheist. It definitely isn't begging!

[Pensive]

I can be easily manipulated and it's hard for me to say no, so usually yes.

[PSRemeshChandra]

After reading the opinions, observations and comments from an educated cross-section of the society, I assume that poverty, illness, homelessness, natural calamities, evictions from settlements and colonies, riots, unemployment and retrenching etc, which are the common causes for sending multitudes to the streets to beg before fellow human beings rarely affect the educated. Accepting the general deduction that begging is generally limited to those among the uneducated, the fact that those who beg in the street are God's creations and our fellow human beings can not be denied. We are either the beggars who do the thing, or the authorities who deny the deserving equal opportunities for employment and housing, or the society which is ultimately responsible for this system of humiliation. We certainly cannot be anything else. It is good to remember the Wall Street Crash that sent the most number of people to the streets to beg. It was caused from the unregulated greed of the immensely rich who actually were running the government too. Had the government been something not parked in their cattle sheds, even the possibility for such a thing would never have arisen. Who are ultimately responsible for those additional fleets added to the streets, they themselves or the governments run by the greedy rich? Who said the system of share marketing, and denying the theory that what one gains is lost by many is inevitable and mandatory for running a nation. Did not the Romans, Mayans, Indians and the Chinese run their nations efficiently?



It was people who saved money for buiding homes, for treating their beloved in hospitals and for sending daughters away in marriages that were robbed of everything and sent to the streets. It is still and still repeating all over the world. Board-Room Economics and War-Room Politics were what created millions of beggars by overnight. Where did the poor man in the street come in this picture of power game? Governments do wish to hide their crimes and follies, so they hastily enact laws for forbidding begging in their beautiful lovely streets and for arresting and removing beggars from the streets. Then through public relation media they bark about the business of organized begging, the beggars' inferior social standards, their uncleanliness, and the stench coming from them. It is because the world of administration is so saturated and thickly packed with cheaters, stealers and cut-throats that they are so. Because they are mostly uneducated, they do not know how to dethrone these drones from authority. So, suppressing the pangs of betrayal, with downcast eyes, and with shame humiliation and indignation they beg in the streets, because life is such precious, and hope is still endeared. I really miss the human beings forcefully removed from my Trivandrum City Streets. There were sisters, mothers, kids, old men among them. I wonder where they all have gone, and what they are now doing, dead or living. I know the situation is the same all over the world. As long as there is one single person is in distress there, no country in this world is humane, priding in ostentaceous pseudo welfare stateship or not. I also know, the uniformed officers who only were obeying their orders from the blind law and the brute authorities were pining in their hearts for doing this

[Paulclem]

Hi PSRemesh - I think there is a big difference to the situation of beggars in India to the ones in the Western democracies.

I think the reasons you cited for begging on the streets in India are obviously valid, and it goes without saying that there is little social assistance for the poor in your country - particularly the untouchables. I've visited Mumbai and Goa, and met beggars there and here also.

Don't be too hard on my fellow litnetters as they were referring to the situation in mainly western countries where the social support is a little different. Yes there will be some who fall on hard times, but in the UK there are women's hostels and no children are allowed to be homeless by the authorities- though some clearly run away and become so. They are entitled to a home in care or with foster parents and support into adult life if they have no family.

The reasons for beggars being on the streets is often related to social problems caused by drugs, alcohol and mental illness. Perhas you could class drug and alcohol problems as a mental illness too. They are very dfferent reasons to caste and personal loss, often involving a choice - initially anyway.

[The Atheist]

After reading the opinions, observations and comments from an educated cross-section of the society, I assume that poverty, illness, homelessness, natural calamities, evictions from settlements and colonies, riots, unemployment and retrenching etc, which are the common causes for sending multitudes to the streets to beg before fellow human beings rarely affect the educated.

Echoing Paul, I have taken pains to point out that there is a huge difference between western countries with a social welfare net and countries like India where there is none. In fact, I even listed some, including India.

Nobody doubts that homeless in non-welfare countries become homeless through no fault of their own.

[Lacra]

I can be easily manipulated and it's hard for me to say no, so usually yes.

Same here. :)

[Veho]

I can be easily manipulated and it's hard for me to say no, so usually yes.

Me too, so if I get asked I find it impossible to look them in the eye and then say no! But I don't always give to beggars who are just sitting on the sidewalks unless they cut a really sad aspect. I never resent giving when I do though and I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I'm probably rather naive, but in contrast to this naïveté I think we as humans can be too quick to judge sometimes.

[Propter W.]

Busking for your money isn't quite the same as begging, in my opinion. If I find a bloke entertaining, I'll give him a deuce anytime, no matter what he's wearing, how much he smells, drinks or shoots up.

Exactly, in fact, it's not the same at all. They are actually doing something to get money.

[Buh4Bee]

I give beggars money and have even bought them food. I'd rather feed someone than give them means to fuel addiction.

[Nightshade]

Depends where I am in the world, in Manchester where they say money for a cup of tea or for food I usually bought them a cup of tea or food (usally idiotically with my own lunch money), ratehr than give them money. If they actually ask for money then it was less likley as student and. I once bought 3 big Issues in a single day and all!

Here in Egypt its another story, problem is you can get mobbed if you give one begger suddenly there is a crowd and you can't give them all. There are simply too many people who can't afford eat adn live on the streets. I try and give what I can when I have some with me.

[Vonny]

Where I live, I rarely see a beggar. We're a resort town.

People who are at the bottom of the heap, and cry a lot, qualify for every imaginable benefit.

I feel sorry for my friends who work hard and cannot afford to both make their house payment and go to the doctor when they are sick. Thankfully, that's not me. But I feel guilty when I can go to the doctor because I have the flu, and my friend can't.

[PSRemeshChandra]

As Vonny pointed out, it is sad to reflect on our friends who cannot afford to go to a doctor when we can. The sight of their faces sitting somewhere and coughing and shivering away their destiny will torment us for days. Even if it can be argued that destiny is created by man, adverse circumstances leading a man to helpless positions as if in a perfectly staged tragedy is only very common in this world. Approximately three fourth of the world is in poverty, distress and disease. It is the plight of people in these areas leading people to begging that is to be discussed, not the occasional scene of begging for money for pot and ale in the economically rich nations. Dozens and dozens of countries in the continents of Asia, Africa and elsewhere are in the grip of poverty, sending hundreds and hundreds of citizens to the streets each day to beg before fellow citizens. Gradual impoverishing and depleting of revenues will not send a man to the streets to beg. He will find a means for a decent living during the long period it takes to lower him to nothingness. It is the sudden and unexpected twist and turn of things that send multitudes to the streets to beg. Those who are afraid to beg simply suicide and vanish. Even in welfare states and in economically advanced coutries, the futility of Health Insurance as regard to their uselessness of coming to the aid of the poor man is publicly known. Where in the world has a Health Insurance Company gone charitable? Why don't prosperous European governmments dare adopt the Free Hospital System the British introduced in India which though is being crushed down inch by inch, day by day by the government there?


The chief cause in modern day for creating countless number of beggars overnight has already been pointed out earlier in these pages which is Share Market Crash which touches every nook and corner of this world. Wreckage of life overnight won't leave people with options but choose to beg. It was earlier pointed out that the famous Wall Street Crash was the incident in history that sent the greatest number of people to either beg in the streets or jump from their balconies. Newspaper archives will vouschafe. It is no use turning faces away from bare truths. Because all do share trading is not a decent excuse. No mathematics prove that in this new world enterprise, what money one makes is not exactly what someone lost on the otherside. Even the recent world crashes did exactly the same thing-sent even more people to the streets. It is still continuing. Wars no more make beggars because they no more happen in the large scale. Unless this modern day system of raising capital through sale of shares is not done with, begging will continue, whether we give money to beggars or not.

[JBI]

Not a cent. We have a social security net that gets tons of tax money for that reason. We have shelters, charities, and soup kitchens, for that reason, we have welfare, and government housing for that reason.

I do not need to support some beggars coke habit.

Give them once, they will want more tomorrow, give them twice, they will curse you when you do not give a third time, don't give them, and don't worry - they still won't regard you highly after you give.


I am in China, here beggars are everywhere, some who need it, and some who don't. But I know, drop one coin into a bin, and not only will the one I gave it to chase after me, but every beggar within meters.

[Vonny]

:lol: I felt that I might be appearing unsympathetic to the homeless drug users, but I feel better now that I've seen this thread. I didn't know if we could mention taxes in this forum, but we single folks without dependents are the ones drained for taxes.

PSRC, my friend who gets sick and can't go to the doctor doesn't sit around. She works full-time as a social worker, taking care of the methamphetamine addicts. (Okay, she also takes care of some people who are legitimately disabled, so I'm not talking about those disabled people), but my friend makes sure that all of these welfare recipients have access to a doctor; then my friend contracts illnesses from them and she herself has no medical insurance. The reason is that everything has been "privatized," so she no longer works for the government, but for a small private agency. (I hope that isn't political. I can't tell what is political or not.)

I do believe that more and more wealth is being channeled up, and the truly "needy" will increase. The future isn't rosy for many. But as you mentioned, if that were ever me, I'd be terrified in the street, or living among the meth users, so I'd simply plunge to the bottom of the lake! :smile5:

Actually, I think I'm more secure than the majority.

[Delta40]

Fortunately, Australia has a public health care system so medical insurance is not an issue - even for the beggars. Your friend must be very dedicated to work under such conditions Vonny. My Big Issue vendor was beaten up pretty badly a few months back which reduced the amount of time he could stand on a corner selling his magazine. I bought him paracetamol and coffee each morning as I passed. He has to deal with PTSD and I find his job is by far more challenging than my cosy office job.

[jajdude]

.


I am in China, here beggars are everywhere, some who need it, and some who don't. But I know, drop one coin into a bin, and not only will the one I gave it to chase after me, but every beggar within meters.

Where in China? I'm in Suzhou (Jiangsu). Don't see many in my neighborhood but when I go into the busier areas, a few. Chinese wave them off, but they always head over to the foreigner, and well, if I got coins to spare, don't mind giving a few.

They can be quite persistent sometimes and I'd rather give 2 yuan than have them plead or even follow me.

Chinese have told me not to give before, but some of my students, grade 9, who have little money of course, said they give a little too sometimes.

[stlukesguild]

Not a cent. We have a social security net that gets tons of tax money for that reason. We have shelters, charities, and soup kitchens, for that reason, we have welfare, and government housing for that reason.

I do not need to support some beggars coke habit.

Give them once, they will want more tomorrow, give them twice, they will curse you when you do not give a third time, don't give them, and don't worry - they still won't regard you highly after you give.

Sounds familiar.

`Are there no prisons?' asked Scrooge.

`Plenty of prisons,' said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.

`And the Union workhouses?' demanded Scrooge. `Are they still in operation?'

`They are. Still,' returned the gentleman, `I wish I could say they were not.'

`The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?' said Scrooge.

`Both very busy, sir.'

`Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,' said Scrooge. `I'm very glad to hear it.'

...

I don't make merry myself at Christmas and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned--they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there.'

`Many can't go there; and many would rather die.'

`If they would rather die,' said Scrooge, `they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.

[The Atheist]

Sounds familiar.

No, it's just a really bad analogy, and since I'm pretty sure you know what Dickens was writing about*, I'll have to presume you haven't read the thread and put comments in the context of the whole.

That I'll take any odds you like that my donations to people in genuine poverty far exceed yours isn't even an issue for me.

*Although in light of the lack of social services in London in the 19th century, I'm not 100% convinced that you fully understood it.

[JBI]

Where in China? I'm in Suzhou (Jiangsu). Don't see many in my neighborhood but when I go into the busier areas, a few. Chinese wave them off, but they always head over to the foreigner, and well, if I got coins to spare, don't mind giving a few.

They can be quite persistent sometimes and I'd rather give 2 yuan than have them plead or even follow me.

Chinese have told me not to give before, but some of my students, grade 9, who have little money of course, said they give a little too sometimes.

I'm in Beijing. Here it is a problem, especially anywhere where one lines up, or in bus stations or train stations - I once gave an uneaten package of instant noodles to a janitor to throw out, and literally 5 beggars jumped on the poor woman fighting for it, and then they chased after me.

Jiangsu is maybe different, I do not know, I was there for only a few days, but in general a lot of people here need it, but it is troubling for me, as a foreigner, to have the need to take care of a rich government's corruption. Simply put, their government has a job to do, and they have all the money in the world to do it, if they do not do it, which is in their power, then why should I?

As for people giving, generally very, very few people give, if anybody, and maybe some people give, but generally it is a face thing, the same way when I went to Datong, a huge party of rich 两会 members were touring the site, and into each box every man threw a 100Yuan bill, so as to not lose face.

[JBI]

Not a cent. We have a social security net that gets tons of tax money for that reason. We have shelters, charities, and soup kitchens, for that reason, we have welfare, and government housing for that reason.

I do not need to support some beggars coke habit.

Give them once, they will want more tomorrow, give them twice, they will curse you when you do not give a third time, don't give them, and don't worry - they still won't regard you highly after you give.

Sounds familiar.

`Are there no prisons?' asked Scrooge.

`Plenty of prisons,' said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.

`And the Union workhouses?' demanded Scrooge. `Are they still in operation?'

`They are. Still,' returned the gentleman, `I wish I could say they were not.'

`The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?' said Scrooge.

`Both very busy, sir.'

`Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,' said Scrooge. `I'm very glad to hear it.'

...

I don't make merry myself at Christmas and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned--they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there.'

`Many can't go there; and many would rather die.'

`If they would rather die,' said Scrooge, `they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.

Well, we could do it the American way, to paraphrase the Folk Musician Harry Chapin, "What if, if you were in the 5th or 6th grade, if the principal, had the, Gonads, to say, 'on Monday there was the greatest outpour of generosity more cans of food, feeding 129 families came to this school than ever before, but, we only have one problem, and we are going to deal with it these coming months, we are going to cancel our regular classes, and what we're going to talk about is, what are those people going to eat, next week," doesn't that sound like a reasonable education system that deals with these sorts of questions?"

Well, to put it lightly, it isn't to giving coins to deal with hunger, it is through institutions, they are in place, and anybody who pays taxes supports them. Likewise, most people give to charity, and not just their church. In today's world, government has taken over the roll of security net, and provides, rather than direct charity, likewise, institutions without religious or cultural affiliations have taken over the roll of the church, providing for those in need. To be on the street pan handling is to be consciously doing it - perhaps because of a disease. It is not for the rest of the world to feed the disease, when, as in Canada, health care (including those for mental afflictions) is free, Welfare is available, housing, shelter, food, clothing, even rehab is free. Likewise, there is work available, and other programs in place.

Why then, do these people have the nerve to ask for coins? It's not as if the public hasn't already been supporting them, because, lets face it, it is the people who earn money paying tax handing out cheques every month, not the other way around. If they want work and help, that's one thing, but if they want their quick fix, or a few extra bucks, that's a whole other thing, and it is of no concern to me. Let those people who need to feel good about themselves toss coins to them.

[Delta40]

Jiangsu is maybe different, I do not know, I was there for only a few days, but in general a lot of people here need it, but it is troubling for me, as a foreigner, to have the need to take care of a rich government's corruption. Simply put, their government has a job to do, and they have all the money in the world to do it, if they do not do it, which is in their power, then why should I?

The reason you should is because the bad behaviour of another (including corrupt governments) is not a precedent for others to follow suit. Yes the government should provide any amount of access to its citizens, no matter where they are placed on the income ladder. America denies its citizens the basic right of free health care! So rally for change but don't say 'well they don't do what they're supposed to do, so I won't either!' To me, you might as well admit that until the government acts in its power, you refuse to exercise your own. And importantly, you use the corrupt government to justify your own inaction.

A husband (lets pretend its you) is supposed to bring home the bacon to his wife but he spends it at the pub instead and when she asks for the housekeeping he silences her. Does she say 'well he doesn't provide for us, so I won't either' Does she let the kids starve, ignore their needs till you actually do the 'right thing?' I doubt it.

I'm inclined to look at governments as one big Daddy and society as the family. Paternalistic Daddies either do the right thing or they don't. When they don't, its up to the other family members to make do with what they have - create community networks to support one another. The weak, the needy, the troubled, the ill. All those family members that can be a pain in the ***...

I know it is far easier to remove ourselves from those family members, shrug our shoulders and mutter 'It's got nothing to do with me.' More commonly, we free load off the good works of others. Taking the credit for those who would directly assist the vermin of humankind just because we pay taxes and skip over the puddles so our feet don't get wet.

Few tragedies can be more extensive than the stunting of life, few injustices deeper than the denial of an opportunity to strive or even to hope, by a limit imposed from without, but falsely identified as lying within. Stephen Jay Gould

on the other hand:
Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die. Anonymous

[stlukesguild]

Seriously, either the United States is completely unique when it comes to poverty, or a great many of you from around the world are blind to the realities. Let's face it... among those who are homeless a great many suffer from mental illnesses and/or addictions. A good majority aren't the most intelligent or educated. And there are those who suddenly find themselves in dire circumstances as the result of divorce, the loss of a job, debilitating illnesses, etc... and lack the support system of friends and family that might bail them out under such circumstances.

The treatment of the mentally ill in the United States is shameful. Where laws protect individuals with nearly any other illness or disability from discrimination, this is not necessarily the case when it comes to mental illness. Add to this the notion held governmental do-gooders with regard to the dignity of the patients which essentially dumped the patients who were not taking their medication (or for whom the medication wasn't working) on the streets. This was seen as giving them the freedom of self-determination... and was a successful as dumping mentally and emotionally challenged students into the "normal" classrooms in the name of "mainstreaming".

When one adds to this the hoops that governmental agencies force individuals to go for when applying for assistance... the waiting list for public housing or housing assistance that can stretch out for a year of longer... one must recognize that not every homeless person is there by choice or because of his or her addictions to alcohol, drugs, gambling, etc...

[stlukesguild]

America denies its citizens the basic right of free health care! So rally for change...

The problem is that we don't do this. We have far too many ignorant individuals voting who lack the least ability of critical thinking. They accept it as fact when their leaders and when asinine radio talk show hosts warn them of the dire consequences of Socialism or "Death Panels" or a European model with endless waiting lists. Not once do they actually investigate the truth themselves. Now we have leaders in Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, and elsewhere investing millions into PR campaigns intended to convince the middle-class worker that lacks health care that he or she should be protesting against the few union employees who have earned such benefits rather than insisting that all citizens should have access to free medical care.

[Delta40]

It is amazing how frightening change can be....imagine having a job with insurance, becoming unemployed, developing health issues that you are unable to remedy through economic means. Losing family, property, dignity. I guess the real comfort here is that the streets are always prepared to receive you...for some, the softest place to land is grey concrete.

[JBI]

The reason you should is because the bad behaviour of another (including corrupt governments) is not a precedent for others to follow suit. Yes the government should provide any amount of access to its citizens, no matter where they are placed on the income ladder. America denies its citizens the basic right of free health care! So rally for change but don't say 'well they don't do what they're supposed to do, so I won't either!' To me, you might as well admit that until the government acts in its power, you refuse to exercise your own. And importantly, you use the corrupt government to justify your own inaction.

A husband (lets pretend its you) is supposed to bring home the bacon to his wife but he spends it at the pub instead and when she asks for the housekeeping he silences her. Does she say 'well he doesn't provide for us, so I won't either' Does she let the kids starve, ignore their needs till you actually do the 'right thing?' I doubt it.

I'm inclined to look at governments as one big Daddy and society as the family. Paternalistic Daddies either do the right thing or they don't. When they don't, its up to the other family members to make do with what they have - create community networks to support one another. The weak, the needy, the troubled, the ill. All those family members that can be a pain in the ***...

I know it is far easier to remove ourselves from those family members, shrug our shoulders and mutter 'It's got nothing to do with me.' More commonly, we free load off the good works of others. Taking the credit for those who would directly assist the vermin of humankind just because we pay taxes and skip over the puddles so our feet don't get wet.

Few tragedies can be more extensive than the stunting of life, few injustices deeper than the denial of an opportunity to strive or even to hope, by a limit imposed from without, but falsely identified as lying within. Stephen Jay Gould

on the other hand:
Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die. Anonymous

So you should make up for all the bad things in this world? Seriously, such a load. It is ok to try and help, but it is another to assume the responsibility of me, a foreigner in a different land, whose country is taken advantage of by this big country (as well as almost every other country in the world).

Simply put, it is not my place to fix the world of others, and the fact that they harass me of all because I am a foreigner just makes it even worse. I am not some bank, some sucker.

There is a myth of feel-gooders that they need to feel bad for everybody - they do not, they need to provide a necessary system to those in their community - China is not my community, I cannot alter things here, since I cannot even buy property here, why then should I try to help their beggars?

[Delta40]

I don't feel bad for everybody but neither do I feel I have no personal stake in this world, this existence. If you think exaggerated statements such as So you should make up for all the bad things in this world? is the point I'm making, you're mistaken. I said don't absovle your own civic and moral duty on the basis that someone else or an institution lets you down.

Evil thrives when good men do nothing. Let us assume for arguments sake that you're a good man. I get the impression you feel that doing nothing is a 'free choice' you arrive at after you have judged everyone else. If so, expect to get out of life what you put into it.

[Alexander III]

Interesting that I see this thread now, as the yesterday I went to Ralph Lauren and bought a new blazer/sport jacket, did I need it? No I have many at home already. But dam! I really wanted it. Before buying it I realized that with the money I could have truly done much good, leave alone in Europe were poverty doesn't really exist (when the standard of poverty is not seen as that of the west but by that of the world). But imagine in one of those many countries full of roughly the 1/3 of the human population whom is malnourished or facing starvation. That money could have saved several lives.

Now, If while at the store, a man with a gun had come in and said to me give me the money or I shall shoot these four children in front of me; I would have given him the money. But that didn't happen. Those children somewhere in the world who will starve today, I know they exist, but I don't see them. So to be honest I cant bring myself to particularly care about them. I bought blazer.

Now I sit here with the blazer on and think that this blazer could have saved a life or two, but I am rather happy as I have my blazer. And that life or two which I could have saved don't guilt my conscience as they technically are some figment of my imagination - which is very real, but not real enough. So my conscience is fine and I am content with my new blazer.

This morning I had a conversation with an acquaintance, regarding these thoughts of mine. He found me to be an asswhole, saying that I should be "ashamed to smile and drink that cocktail". And for a while I wondered if I simply am immoral. But then I realized that the problem of 1/3 of the world lacking food still persists and does not seem to alter much, so it seem's that I am not so unique and that a lot of people chose to buy the blazer too. As they like me, care more about having a new blazer than some random children dying somewhere in the world. In truth why should we care?

[The Atheist]

Seriously, either the United States is completely unique when it comes to poverty, or a great many of you from around the world are blind to the realities.(bolding mine)

Wouldn't something not completely unique not be unique in any way?


The treatment of the mentally ill in the United States is shameful....

When one adds to this the hoops that governmental agencies force individuals to go for when applying for assistance... the waiting list for public housing or housing assistance that can stretch out for a year of longer... one must recognize that not every homeless person is there by choice or because of his or her addictions to alcohol, drugs, gambling, etc...

That makes USA a completely different proposition to other OECD member countries.

Which makes it pointless to have made your previous post where you assumed other countries have the same lack of social welfare as USA.

[Vonny]

America denies its citizens the basic right of free health care! So rally for change...

The problem is that we don't do this. We have far too many ignorant individuals voting who lack the least ability of critical thinking. They accept it as fact when their leaders and when asinine radio talk show hosts warn them of the dire consequences of Socialism or "Death Panels" or a European model with endless waiting lists. Not once do they actually investigate the truth themselves. Now we have leaders in Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, and elsewhere investing millions into PR campaigns intended to convince the middle-class worker that lacks health care that he or she should be protesting against the few union employees who have earned such benefits rather than insisting that all citizens should have access to free medical care.


Stlukes is correct.



Seriously, either the United States is completely unique when it comes to poverty, or a great many of you from around the world are blind to the realities. Let's face it... among those who are homeless a great many suffer from mental illnesses and/or addictions. A good majority aren't the most intelligent or educated. And there are those who suddenly find themselves in dire circumstances as the result of divorce, the loss of a job, debilitating illnesses, etc... and lack the support system of friends and family that might bail them out under such circumstances.

The treatment of the mentally ill in the United States is shameful. Where laws protect individuals with nearly any other illness or disability from discrimination, this is not necessarily the case when it comes to mental illness. Add to this the notion held governmental do-gooders with regard to the dignity of the patients which essentially dumped the patients who were not taking their medication (or for whom the medication wasn't working) on the streets. This was seen as giving them the freedom of self-determination... and was a successful as dumping mentally and emotionally challenged students into the "normal" classrooms in the name of "mainstreaming".

When one adds to this the hoops that governmental agencies force individuals to go for when applying for assistance... the waiting list for public housing or housing assistance that can stretch out for a year of longer... one must recognize that not every homeless person is there by choice or because of his or her addictions to alcohol, drugs, gambling, etc...

You are correct about this too Stlukes. I want to specify that my lack of sympathy in the "homelessness" thread had to do with people who are not homeless, the ones who are already on assistance. It seems there is a certain group of low-lifes who know how to work the system, while others who are more needy, and have no one to advocate for them, do without. And I'm sure there are decent people, including many veterans, here on welfare. I was referring to a subset, the meth addicts that the government supports. They're the ones I hear the horror stories about.

Also, I know that if you travel around the country, you do see homeless people. But here in North Idaho we don't have them, that I can see. I guess part of this has to do with our very cold winters. I asked someone today why we don't have beggars on the streets here, even in summer, and she said she's pretty sure it's illegal here, that the police will actually give them a ticket, and I'm pretty sure it is illegal to sleep in a park.

I have to admit that one reason I'm adamant against homelessness or public assistance is that I know there would be no assistance for me, and the very idea of this - I force from my mind.

And there are gazillions of people who work full-time, who have no health insurance.

I didn't know if we're allowed to say this here, but since Stlukes did, I guess I can.

Alot of the government "do-gooders," do more harm to people than they do good, because anyone further down is stygmatized. I have to admit this. (My social-worker friend isn't this way, but other "do-gooders.") This is why I, personally, am determined to find and rely on my own inner strength. And if ever I don't have that anymore, I'll be heading for depths of Lake Pend Oreille.

It's too bad it's this way, but this is how it is. You can't even get into a cab without listening to those pinheads on talk radio, and the driver talking about Jesus saving us, and it won't be getting any better.

I hope this is okay to say. I just want to confirm that what Stlukes said is true. Atheist, it's really not right to twist Stlukes words around in order to discredit him. But you know I kind of like you Atheist.

[The Atheist]

I hope this is okay to say. I just want to confirm that what Stlukes said is true. Atheist, it's really not right to twist Stlukes words around in order to discredit him.

I think you're reading what I said wrong. I don't disagree with what St Lukes said at all on the subject of US homelessness. Clearly, if you don't have a full social welfare system it becomes relatively easy to be homeless and I agreed that USA doesn't have the same safety net as other English-speaking and other OECD countries.

What I objected to and said was that his response to me which made several incorrect assumptions was wrong.

I haven't changed his words at all, which is why I quoted them verbatim.

[Delta40]

I agree USA does not have the same safety net as other english and non-english speaking countries throughout the world. I don't expect the discussion to revovle around the so called freedoms of America though.

I know Atheist takes a harder stand than I do when it comes to beggars but consider this. I work for the tax office and there are many, many people who know how to rort the system, abuse the system, stretch it to the point that it might snap. Within reason, its legal but many, many people have absolutely no idea how to get the most out of their tax dollars.

So some beggars are good at what they do. Others not so good. My point is that this behavioural practice is class blind. Why penalize the beggars who are good? We pat the businessman whose dealings may not be entirely transparent on the back when he makes a killing in the market, without considering the broader implications.

Are you sure its not because beggars look awful and even stink?

[Vonny]

I think you're reading what I said wrong. I don't disagree with what St Lukes said at all on the subject of US homelessness. Clearly, if you don't have a full social welfare system it becomes relatively easy to be homeless and I agreed that USA doesn't have the same safety net as other English-speaking and other OECD countries.

What I objected to and said was that his response to me which made several incorrect assumptions was wrong.

I haven't changed his words at all, which is why I quoted them verbatim.

I'm sorry Atheist if I misread you. My mind often focuses on certain details to the exclusion of others. It's how my mind works. I know that I can often offend people, and generally in my life I'm not very outspoken. I think I lack some of the critical thinking skills that Stluke was talking about. I really admire anyone who has critical thinking skills and is articulate.

Generally, I just go along. When I'm in the cab and the driver says, "We will get our reward, we only need to have faith in the Lord and to wait for it; nobody is taking my guns away." I just say, "Yeah. Sounds good to me."

[Greta Kin]

I do not give money, but occasionally give food. I tend to be more systematic about charity, giving money/other aid to charity organizations that help, but not directly to panhandlers. Strikes me as haphazard and sub-optimal.

[Delta40]

Ha! I've got a holiday to save for so I just cancelled my all my monthly direct debits to charities.....do I leave the do-gooder basket now?

[sensen]

I give beggars money when they approach me. I don't like seeing people beg but I don't want to judge them because it could have been me for all I know

[Buh4Bee]

This is an interesting discussion. After reading through the thread it appears that people are talking about the immediate question of how to respond when approached by a beggar and the larger question of who is obligated to provide for the impoverished. Some people stated that they don’t give any money, while others give money or food. I guess for the do-gooders, statistically speaking social workers or charity directors say that it is best not to give money, but food. It is a matter of need verses wants. What does that person want, possibly drugs or alcohol? But what that person really needs is food. Who knows what can happen, if the beggars aren’t given any money at all. Maybe you are doing someone a favor by just walking by.

In an industrialized nation, whose moral obligation is it to provide for the impoverished? This is a huge question, so I’m just trying to restate some previous posted ideas and add a few of my own. It does start with the government and some governments woefully fail to meet this responsibility. In general, I think there is a strong prejudice and ignorance concerning the civic perception of this social issue. Why would congress be motivated to use limited fiscal moneys to fund shelters, when these people refuse to help themselves?

So when the government doesn’t take care of this problem, it is the local religious organization that attempt to address these social issues. Are these the do-gooders that feel good about doing something? Most likely, I’d say. But then, why should we really care? We should care, because we live in a civilized world that calls people to live as decent people. It is frightening to think about how easy it is to become homeless. If that day were to come, I pray that there are a few compassionate people out there that would be willing to give me a second chance or even just a hot meal and a brief conversation.

I also buy the blazer and I don’t sit around saving my money to charities, but I try to do something when I can and leave it at that.

[Delta40]

Yes Jersea, I'm sure you're comfortable applying such principles to the people you most love in your life too...

I like consistency. If I don't want my loved ones to be disregarded in the way you suggest they deserve, then I shouldn't disregard others because it makes me a sanctimonious hyocrite. I don't want to be invisible. I don't want my loved ones to be invisible. The suggestions that others should be for a multitude of reasons is because we remove the emotive factor from the equation. And it works too. For example, I don't care if your kid starves to death on the street because I don't know them and they have no impact whatsoever on my life....

Its harsh, brutal and inhuman.

[Alexander III]

"I don't care if your kid starves to death on the street because I don't know them and they have no impact whatsoever on my life"

But then how many children in India and sub-saharan Africa starve to death every day. When we give charity to help them we always give a surplus, as in we give to them what we don't need. I can put in a 10 euro bill in the bucket because that is nothing. But all these 10 euro notes don't help them much as they continue to die. If people really cared they would make huge sacrifice in their lives to save their lives, as in I don't need two cars so Instead of buying the second one I will use the money on the needy. That is charity, when you make a conscious great self sacrifice to help others, not putting 10 euros in the bucket. I know it sounds inhumane, but the I'd wage 95% of people would have a new car instead of save a life in Africa.

[The Atheist]

I know it sounds inhumane, but the I'd wage 95% of people would have a new car instead of save a life in Africa.

I'll raise you to 99%.

[Alexander III]

I'll raise you to 99%.

yea you are probably right...the whole concept of charity is massively hypocritical. Ofcourse I wont make myself seem self-righteous; like I sated in my previous post, on the page before, I would rather use 400 euros to buy a new blazer or coat than give them to charity. And in fact I do.

[jajdude]

I'm in Beijing. Here it is a problem, especially anywhere where one lines up, or in bus stations or train stations - I once gave an uneaten package of instant noodles to a janitor to throw out, and literally 5 beggars jumped on the poor woman fighting for it, and then they chased after me.

Jiangsu is maybe different, I do not know, I was there for only a few days, but in general a lot of people here need it, but it is troubling for me, as a foreigner, to have the need to take care of a rich government's corruption. Simply put, their government has a job to do, and they have all the money in the world to do it, if they do not do it, which is in their power, then why should I?

As for people giving, generally very, very few people give, if anybody, and maybe some people give, but generally it is a face thing, the same way when I went to Datong, a huge party of rich 两会 members were touring the site, and into each box every man threw a 100Yuan bill, so as to not lose face.

Nah, Jiangsu is full of persistent beggars. My neighborhood lacks them, but the rest of the city and province, they teem and abound indeed.

haha

[PSRemeshChandra]

It was the famous British philosopher, playwright and critic George Bernard Shaw who in one of his B.B.C. Radio Broadcasts said, if there indeed is poverty in your country, then don't bark about patriotism. He was speaking about the ultimate freedom of human beings. Extravaganza in spending is what deprives industrial and agricultural production of its usefulness. 'Shakespeare’s character Eago asked people to put money in their purses and not to take out of it.' But people earn the least and spend the most which habit causes poverty. But when dire needs arise, purse can not be checked. Until poverty is wiped out clean, we shall cease to sing about patriotism.


Poverty which most often lead people to beg on the streets is purely a product of the shortsightedness, corruption and dereliction of sworn duties of the Administration and Governance of the respective nations. When their policies fail, the streets recieve more beggars. The humanitarian in Shaw analyzed this fairly well and did not hesitate to ascribe the responsibility for poverty and begging to governments. Writers lead governments and nations, not governments govern writers. [ It is applicable to all writers and critics, including those writers on Lit Net]. Shaw did not stop there but defined the culprits responsible for this social evil. That notorious phrase of Shaw, ‘this prodigious mass of humbug’ became world famous.


The combined body of parliaments, legislation, judiciary, literature, education and journalism looks to Bernard Shaw as a prodigious mass of humbug which in layman’s terms means vanity and ostentation of authority. These great institutions of society just promote and help intellectual slavery exist and reign in its all forms. They always and everywhere in this world wish to establish and make people think that they are superior to everything and unquestionable. The foolery that is concealed in them is that everywhere in this world people hate these institutions to the depths of their soul. Only those parasites who live by these things would love them. We would be thrilled to even think about the judges, parliament members, writers, academicians and newspaper editors in England, India, America, France, South Africa, New Zealand, Switzerland, China and Russia who very much wished for the head and blood of this philosopher and playwright. But he pleased people everywhere and reflected well their inner feelings.

[Musicology]

ALL money these days is debt. You are using a fiat currency. All banknotes are products of a mountain of never ending usury, in fact. Humans are the only asset in their system. So, if you want to be charitable and wish to give away some of your debt notes (your fiat money) to someone else, that is just fine. Just be aware that all banks create money out of thin air. When they lend to you.

(You borrow 100 Dollars and you give back 120. That's manufacturing money out of thin air, isn't it) ? So they can print 20 more. It's so simple a child can understand it. Quick ! Fetch me a child !!!!

Which is why we are in the mess we are at the moment.

Charity is what YOU decide it is. It's not for others to decide whether it's good or bad. Your definition of charity is good enough.

I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. That is good enough.

[DocHeart]

I live in Athens, Greece. If I gave a euro to every beggar I bump into every day I would give away my whole salary. So I've picked out a few favourite ones -- an old senile-looking guy at the traffic lights at the corner of Alexandras and Kifissias who's been wearing the same "3 GUYS" t-shirt for two years; a lady with one leg who hangs around in her wheelchair near the traffic lights outside the Israeli embassy; and a young woman junkie who is usually asleep outside inside a broken photo booth down Victoria metro station.

I also give money to the Pakistani chap who cleans my windscreen every so often at junction 4B on the Athens - Lamia motorway. But I don't consider him a beggar. He does a bloody good job of it.





(You borrow 100 Dollars and you give back 120. That's manufacturing money out of thin air, isn't it) ? So they can print 20 more. It's so simple a child can understand it. Quick ! Fetch me a child !!!!

Which is why we are in the mess we are at the moment.



I don't understand. Are you opposed to the concept of currency? Or that of banking? If the former, then you'd better have a better alternative than having to pay for your internet connection with potatoes. As for banking - it has existed as a system for a long, long time. Banks are there during recessions and during times of plenty. Like all other businesses, they do better in times of plenty than during recessions. It is not in their interest to cause economic crises.

Living in a country which has been on the brink of bankruptcy for over a year (with the bitter end now terribly close), we've all become very jittery here in Athens. It's not yet come to the point where we form long queues to make massive withdrawals, but many say it's a matter of days. When it happens, the banks will be the first to go. They will be the first businesses to go under.

I am rather of the opinion that poverty is caused by free riders. People who are on the boat but never row. People who get paid by the government (i.e. everyone else's taxes) to do nothing. Incompetent golden boys in key positions. Clean-shaven pencil-pushers who have benefited from nepotism, and they are such sub-humans that they can live with an uncle saying "you owe me". Common crooks becoming mayors and ministers. And at the base of it all, swallowing everyone else's vomit, a few poor bastards who try to live honestly and with dignity by actually EARNING a living.

Ooph. I really shouldn't have bothered with all of this. Made me even more depressed. Don't take my comments personally, my friend. I'm just a little on edge these days.

Best,
DH

[Emil Miller]

I don't give money to beggars although I do support a couple of charities. In relation to the above situation in Greece, there will probably be more beggars on the streets the way things are going. I have in front of me a copy of Le Figaro's economic section with the headline 'Privatisations threaten a social explosion in Greece.' The Greek government has been told by its creditors in the Euro zone and the IMF that it must sell state assets to raise 50 billion euros. These include telecoms, ports, electricity, airports, water, railroads and the Greek postal banks. The unions have called a huge protest meeting for the 4th June and a general strike on the 21st. Currently there are demonstrations going on in Spain against the economic collapse that is ongoing there, the economic viability of Belgium and Italy are being called into question and Portugal and Ireland are being baled out by the ECB and IMF. Far right parties in Scandinavia, Belgium, Italy and France are gaining support. Germany alone is keeping the euro afloat but is beginning to buckle under the strain. So what we have here is a potential repeat of 1848 when revolution swept across Europe like wildfire and brought about the communist manifesto, which I don't have to repeat begins with ' A spectre is haunting Europe...'
And why? All because a handful of people in the US banking community persuaded President Clinton to abandon the Glass /Steagall act that was put in place following the 1929 crash and which prevented banks from gambling in the way the stock market had done. The greed of bankers in Goldman Sachs and Lehman Bros was characteristic of megalomania and the contagion has spread, via globalisation, to Europe with similar catastrophic results. One thing is certain, if the ruling liberal democratic parties who allowed this to happen don't get their act together, it won't just be beggars, there will also be blood on the streets.

[Annamariah]

I've never seen a Finnish beggar, thanks to our welfare society. For the largest part of my life I never saw any beggars at all. We've had them in Finland only for a few years now, and they all come from Romania, thaks to the EU principle of free movement. At first they came just to Helsinki, but by now they are going to other larger cities as well. I never give them money. I've always wondered how come they can afford to travel to Finland if they are so poor they have to beg? Our winters are so cold that most of the beggars travel home in autumn and return in spring again. There's also lots of organised crime involved with them. This isn't happening only in Finland but in lots of other EU countries as well, thanks to the aforementioned free movement principle.

[Musicology]

The worst act of begging we have ever seen was when a string of huge commercial banks robbed billions from their customers, gave no account of the missing billions, and, even more amazingly, managed to stay in business by forcing their unaccounted debts to be paid by a third party - the general public ! With the approval of those who (tongue in cheek) started to say (for thirty pieces of silver) 'we all have to pay it back'. Whether this can be described as begging or not is a good question. But it beggared our belief. And we believed them.

I do not give money to corporate beggars. But I will, from time to time, give help to individuals. In this way charity remains charity and is not confused with 'charities' (many of whom are little more than money making supermarkets).



I've never seen a Finnish beggar, thanks to our welfare society. For the largest part of my life I never saw any beggars at all. We've had them in Finland only for a few years now, and they all come from Romania, thaks to the EU principle of free movement. At first they came just to Helsinki, but by now they are going to other larger cities as well. I never give them money. I've always wondered how come they can afford to travel to Finland if they are so poor they have to beg? Our winters are so cold that most of the beggars travel home in autumn and return in spring again. There's also lots of organised crime involved with them. This isn't happening only in Finland but in lots of other EU countries as well, thanks to the aforementioned free movement principle.

Hi there Docheart,

You ask whether anyone is opposed to the concept of currency. No, not at all. And since you support the idea of currency I have a really radical idea. How about a currency that is supported by something of real value ? Not fiat money (as we have in the USA and in the UK) - unsupported by anything of value. A debt mountain. Quantitative Easing, it's called - where bank notes may be printed ad infinitum. That has to collapse. And it will.

You say it's not in the interests of banks to make crises. I think you may have missed the simple fact that the interests of banks is to make big, fat profits - and nothing else. The bank bailouts were caused by...... the banks. Throughout history. Without any real accountability. Their system is usury. Creating, in plain and indisputable fact, money out of thin air. Thus, a currency that is unsupported by any real value except paper promises, (which is the stuff the banks use to make more money by more usury), is certain to come crashing down. Soon. The writing is already on the wall. The US treasury bonds belong to others.

Banks have had their time. They have controlled entire countries for too long. Try doing business without usury.

Or, as US President Thomas Jefferson wrote over 200 years ago -

‘I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than
standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent with their fathers conquered'.

(1802)





I live in Athens, Greece. If I gave a euro to every beggar I bump into every day I would give away my whole salary. So I've picked out a few favourite ones -- an old senile-looking guy at the traffic lights at the corner of Alexandras and Kifissias who's been wearing the same "3 GUYS" t-shirt for two years; a lady with one leg who hangs around in her wheelchair near the traffic lights outside the Israeli embassy; and a young woman junkie who is usually asleep outside inside a broken photo booth down Victoria metro station.

I also give money to the Pakistani chap who cleans my windscreen every so often at junction 4B on the Athens - Lamia motorway. But I don't consider him a beggar. He does a bloody good job of it.


I don't understand. Are you opposed to the concept of currency? Or that of banking? If the former, then you'd better have a better alternative than having to pay for your internet connection with potatoes. As for banking - it has existed as a system for a long, long time. Banks are there during recessions and during times of plenty. Like all other businesses, they do better in times of plenty than during recessions. It is not in their interest to cause economic crises.

Living in a country which has been on the brink of bankruptcy for over a year (with the bitter end now terribly close), we've all become very jittery here in Athens. It's not yet come to the point where we form long queues to make massive withdrawals, but many say it's a matter of days. When it happens, the banks will be the first to go. They will be the first businesses to go under.

I am rather of the opinion that poverty is caused by free riders. People who are on the boat but never row. People who get paid by the government (i.e. everyone else's taxes) to do nothing. Incompetent golden boys in key positions. Clean-shaven pencil-pushers who have benefited from nepotism, and they are such sub-humans that they can live with an uncle saying "you owe me". Common crooks becoming mayors and ministers. And at the base of it all, swallowing everyone else's vomit, a few poor bastards who try to live honestly and with dignity by actually EARNING a living.

Ooph. I really shouldn't have bothered with all of this. Made me even more depressed. Don't take my comments personally, my friend. I'm just a little on edge these days.

Best,
DH

[PSRemeshChandra]

[IMG]http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/

Pictures of Oil Paintings on wood by Ferdinand Georg Waldmuller, an Austrian Painter who lived during 1793-1865 tell us how the world happily helped the needy. A travelling family of beggars being rewarded by poor peasants, a scene of charity from our bygone era and a scene of eviction are attached here. Those who are interested can go through them. There are hundreds more of such scenes, carefully recorded in paint by talented geniuses for the posterity to remind them that their fathers, grandfathers, forefathers and great ancestors all gave alms or begged. Looking at the pictures we can see how proud the sufferers were and how magnanimous and humane the givers were. The children depicted in these pictures are world citizens who shall not be deprived of their right to live. They are not peddlers or dope addicts. The loveliness and innocence of their faces forbid us to condemn the good practice of alms-giving on all days, without limiting it to one single day of Sakkaatth or Christmas Morning according to religious traditions. Tell the World and European Laws to go to Hell! The world, especially comprising of the poor peasant families has always been kind to needy poor people because the wise of the world always knew what produces beggars: diseases, attachment of properties, eviction from land and home, etc.

[Paulclem]

[IMG]http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/

Pictures of Oil Paintings on wood by Ferdinand Georg Waldmuller, an Austrian Painter who lived during 1793-1865 tell us how the world happily helped the needy. A travelling family of beggars being rewarded by poor peasants, a scene of charity from our bygone era and a scene of eviction are attached here. Those who are interested can go through them. There are hundreds more of such scenes, carefully recorded in paint by talented geniuses for the posterity to remind them that their fathers, grandfathers, forefathers and great ancestors all gave alms or begged. Looking at the pictures we can see how proud the sufferers were and how magnanimous and humane the givers were. The children depicted in these pictures are world citizens who shall not be deprived of their right to live. They are not peddlers or dope addicts. The loveliness and innocence of their faces forbid us to condemn the good practice of alms-giving on all days, without limiting it to one single day of Sakkaatth or Christmas Morning according to religious traditions. Tell the World and European Laws to go to Hell! The world, especially comprising of the poor peasant families has always been kind to needy poor people because the wise of the world always knew what produces beggars: diseases, attachment of properties, eviction from land and home, etc.

I think you're confusing the situation of beggars in Asia with the situation beggars in N Europe. I also fail to see how the paintings you refer to say anything about N Europe today.

In the UK it is the local authority's duty of care to house children. Children do not beg on the streets. You do get other kinds of beggars though.

This is different ti India, where thee are large numbers of beggars and a significant proportion of children begging.

[G L Wilson]

Yes, I am charitable at times.

[PSRemeshChandra]

N Europe or U K does not constitute the world. There is a world outside with millions and millions of people. While posting opinions it is good to go to page one and see the thread start so that instead of airing individual praises one another, a very informative discussion, interesting to whoever view this forum from almost all corners of this world could be carried on. No country in this world is an axis or a pivot to carry this discussion of world interest on or revolve around. Whether one give or not alms and whether one should give or not alms and why; that is what this discussion is conceived to be about. When JAJDUDE started this thread it was not mentioned this discussion should revolve around Europe, U.S., or U.K. Let the picture in all countries come out. Serious Cat also wishes nothing else. A canoe pushed into water will not always remain in calm waters.

[Paulclem]

N Europe or U K does not constitute the world. There is a world outside with millions and millions of people. While posting opinions it is good to go to page one and see the thread start so that instead of airing individual praises one another, a very informative discussion, interesting to whoever view this forum from almost all corners of this world could be carried on. No country in this world is an axis or a pivot to carry this discussion of world interest on or revolve around. Whether one give or not alms and whether one should give or not alms and why; that is what this discussion is conceived to be about. When JAJDUDE started this thread it was not mentioned this discussion should revolve around Europe, U.S., or U.K. Let the picture in all countries come out. Serious Cat also wishes nothing else. A canoe pushed into water will not always remain in calm waters.

I was responding to your choice of paintings depicting poverty in past centuries in Europe. I presume that your were using these to repond to some of the European attitudes to begging which come from the greater level of social security that those countries have, as opposed to India which has relatively little.

The two siuations are difficult to compare because on the subcontinent beggars have little support, whereas Europe provides a lot more support. Attitudes may well be different due to this.

[The Atheist]

When JAJDUDE started this thread it was not mentioned this discussion should revolve around Europe, U.S., or U.K. Let the picture in all countries come out. Serious Cat also wishes nothing else. A canoe pushed into water will not always remain in calm waters.

Nobody's disagreeing with you - we all realise that not all states have universal welfare.

However, the OP refers to USA and myself and other posters have taken pains to note that we are talking about OECD/developed western countries.

[PSRemeshChandra]

As Paulclem pointed out, poor people in India Pakistan Bangladesh Sri Lanka and many other countries in Asia and Africa do not enjoy as great a level of state-provided social security as in countries in Europe. In fact there is no mentionable social security in these countries. This is presumably because the rulers there are more eager to fill their pockets with money from the government coffers than to providing means of sustenance for the always increasing population. It may be noted that the recent greatest corruptions were reported not from Europe but from these supposedly poor countries. There is limitless wealth in these countries but due to their rotten political system this wealth is amassed by a few who go to England and elsewhere and purchase failing industries and car and steel manufacturing companies while millions beg in the streets. They can safely do this because their governments promptly help them by withdrawing petrol price control, etc, so that they may make as much more money as they wish. There is practically no opposition in these countries as to economic policies. Each day thousands and thousands are impoverished and thrown to the streets. In India great Satyagrahas are now once again going on for bringing back more than One hundred thousand million million Rupees stolen from the country and stashed away abroad by great men.


Those paintings were only meant to convey the ardence and sympathy that were shown to beggars in Europe in the past century. Please don't anyone be offended. The honourable Austrian painter Waldmuller was famous for his paintings of the poor, but he perfectly portrayed the delinquence of the world towards the poor, not the neglect shown towards them from some quarters inexperienced in financial wreckage, diseases and poverty.