Mozart, 'Genius' and Exam Fakery (1770) [Archive]

MystyrMystyry

01-26-2011, 07:26 AM

And if true what does it matter?

The cause of art is of no concern except to pedants, why should the cause of genius matter?

The fact is he composed something at 5 years old, he went on to compose great symphonies etc

Vincent 'Old One Ear' Van Gogh copied the draughts of some of his best works from a beginner's drawing instruction guide

Does it matter?

Are all works composed as variations on a theme by this or that other composer to be considered invalid because the final composer hasn't arrived at the theme themself?

Should a work of art only ever be judged with allusion to every other thing in existence - or in isolation?

Why should anything be only this and or that, white or black?

If I buy a complete volume set of the works of Zola, and rather than stuff them into my bookshelf I discover they'd make a perfect footrest if stacked, does that relegate them to 'only' being a footrest, or give them additional value, or wholly new value?

'But you cannot use Zola as a footrest!' some may squeal, and I will growl back: 'Try and stop me!' or just: 'It makes more sense to use him as a footrest rather than consuming premium allotment of my precious bookshelf real estate - at least this way he serves a use...'

Shakespeare stole (okay Litprofs, 'borrowed') his plots - does that diminish his genius? Not a jot!

One of the problems of a formal education system is that it is a 'system' which depends upon a 'system', and the system is thence dependent upon the expectations of the deans and teachers

Ultimate qualifications and prerequisites of admission should likewise not be solely for the children of the wealthy to be squandered in the quest for a degree that inadequately describes the graduate only as 'a capable student' but not 'a potential candidate for greatness'

So if Mozart cheated on the ENTRANCE(!) exams (or was helped) - wasn't it for the benefit of sonorifiphiles that he was assisted in this endeavor, and therefore allowed to ultimately create the Jupiter Symphony - not even Beethoven managed a Jupiter Symphony! - or should he have ridden a bus with all the other passengers?

Musicology

01-26-2011, 03:19 PM

Why does it matter if a pilot has never flown an aircraft in his life and is about to take off with 200 passengers ? Why does it matter 'Mozart' never studied composition a day in his life (nor any academic subject) and that dozens, even hundreds of musical works attributed to him by 'experts' for over 200 years and performed, published and eulogised in his name are plainly proved to be faked, exaggerated and invented by the discoveries of honest men and women in our own time ? With virtually zero cross-examination until they did so ?

I suppose nothing matters in such a crazy universe. Reality doesn't matter, does it (?) except, of course, in the real world. In fact, I love and you also love being miseducated, lied to, and misinformed in the name of culture and education. Such things don't matter. Do they ? 200 years is not enough. We want more. We are queing up for more 'Amadeus'. Scam us and scam us some more. We LOVE pagan idols ! And any talk of us being 'dumbed down' is highly insulting.

Speaking of which, I can't wait to hear the latest news from the TV. It doesn't matter if it's real or not.

Those who say fakery and lies on a wholesale musical, cultural and educational scale do not matter should turn left at the next junction and rejoin the 'Mozart is a musical genius' show. Which is about to leave on a pilgrimage to Santa's Grotto. Sorry to disturb you. Refreshments will be served. And no, 'he' didn't compose masterpieces in his later life. Stay tuned. The same story continues. All the way through. That doesn't matter also. Have a coffee. And always remember that reality doesn't matter. The age of misinformation and strong delusion.

P.S. The above is supplied free of charge so that you will not appreciate it.

Thank You

:eek6:

LitNetIsGreat

01-26-2011, 03:52 PM

Oh no not again...more Mozart hate. :shocked:

MystyrMystyry

01-26-2011, 06:12 PM

My point was that in the arts it doesn't really matter who created, why created, and when created - attribution and introductions and cataloguing are relatively modern concepts

Who was Homer? Who was Anonymous?

Just because some people want to slam the success of certain artists rather than admit that the world would be a considerably dryer place without them, and that they indeed had influence beyond their lifetimes, is no grounds (in Art) to condemn their achievements

It is a common tactic of the Devil's Advocate Brigade to draw attention to the genius of geniuses by at first deriding them, and then permit the viewer to discover the truth for themselves - and this is clearly what you're doing here

It has nothing to do with Aeronautics or well-trained pilots - Shakespeare didn't go to university and study Shakespeare, if he had he may well have failed (neat little story by Asimov around somewhere), and the process of creation for creation's sake is as valid reason to create something new as any other reason (fame, fortune, immortality, love, personal satisfaction etc)

Yours sincerely, MM

p.s. Did Shakespeare really write Francis Bacon's essays?

yanni

01-27-2011, 01:58 AM

Thanks to 'Padre Martini'.....

'Mozart and his father visited Bologna twice (24. - 29.3.1770 and 20.7 - around 13.10.1770). During their first and second Italian journey, they were warmly welcomed in Villa Pallavicini* by the Count and his wife. They stayed for three months, soon finding acceptance among the Bolognese artists and scientists. Several musical activities developed. W.A. Mozart passed the difficult exam in the renowned Accademia Filarmonica and was accepted as a new member. Normally, for this honour, one had to be at least 20 years old and the test piece took a few hours. Thanks to Padre Martini, the academy made an exception for Wolfgang, however, who was only 14 year. The authentic sites of this procedure still exist, including the library in which Mozart's father Leopold had waited in during the examination of his son.'

http://www.mozartways.com/content.php?m=2&typ2=16&lang=en

*Propably "Durazzo-Pallavicini" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Durazzo-Pallavicini, http://www.sais.ceur.it/en/finding-accommodation-in-bologna/university-residences/villa-pallavicini/description.aspx?idC=61760&LN=en-US and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giacomo_Filippo_Durazzo

billl

01-27-2011, 02:06 AM

I tried downloading that pdf from the mediafire link, but there was a problem.

Be careful, everyone, pdf's can be doorways to malware. (Did anyone else try it?)

MystyrMystyry

01-27-2011, 04:47 AM

The original argument concerning the authenticity of works attributed to Mozart doesn't admit that a conservatorium education alone can't produce genius, but genius in Mozart's case was largely just clowning around in the realm that he understood just enough of, but not too much (and didn't take seriously)

This occurs throughout art history, where an artform produces a groundbreaking individual who tries new things and breaks accepted rules to further their self-expression

If the composers who had created the so-called false Mozart works had stepped forward to claim their prize, then to them the glory - but as they'd decided not to, then let the music speak for itself

It's not as though any of us are going to travel back in time and right the wrongs of history - there may well be falsely attributed works but their falsehood is irrelevant to the music at hand

Now having said that, my position is NOT that there are no false attributions, on the contrary - but personally I can't pick them and nor apparently can Mozart specialists

Is there a Kerschel questionmark folder? If so, I've not heard of it, but I'd think that someone must have compiled one by now

Is there an argument about what if Mozart had never been? There would either exist a vast void in musical history or all these other talented identities and hitherto nonentities may have risen to the surface and brandished their blue ribbons

So as any argument carried to the extreme will result in bickering over semantics the case may be made for 'the school of Mozart' - and who knows precisely what went on at the Accademia Filarmonica wiih someone like Mozart dancing about? It was probably some party!

Also, on the subject of mediafire by billl - someone told me that mediafire is THE malware site, and recommended firefox for downloads from it, and somethig called AdBlocker, and then separately scan any form of files you get from there

Musicology wrote-: "Speaking of which, I can't wait to hear the latest news from the TV. It doesn't matter if it's real or not."

Actually, the news is classified as an entertainment - not a necessity

Even though many articles may have a bearing on your well-being, it is overall still not 'necessary'

Figure that one

Next time you hear about a B52 on the moon just remember it really doesn't actually mean anything to anyone if it's not true

edit mistake

Musicology

01-27-2011, 06:48 AM

More academic integrity. Read the article, and if you have anything to say of its contents, please tell us. That way we can all learn. Stop hating reality.

Oh no not again...more Mozart hate. :shocked:

If you wish to know the reality of Mozart's career, and wish to know what the actual evidence is, you should read the above article. And others like it. If not, you will consume more mythology, lies, and wholesale misinformation. Brought to you by 'experts' you have never once cross-examined. 200 years of fiction, in fact.

Do yourself a favour. Get a list of 'Mozart's' musical works (chronologically) and you might learn something. It's the pagan pantheon served up in the name of culture, education and history (so-called). And every body of academic study stands or falls by whether it can survive cross-examination. Right ?

The original argument concerning the authenticity of works attributed to Mozart doesn't admit that a conservatorium education alone can't produce genius, but genius in Mozart's case was largely just clowning around in the realm that he understood just enough of, but not too much (and didn't take seriously)

This occurs throughout art history, where an artform produces a groundbreaking individual who tries new things and breaks accepted rules to further their self-expression

If the composers who had created the so-called false Mozart works had stepped forward to claim their prize, then to them the glory - but as they'd decided not to, then let the music speak for itself

It's not as though any of us are going to travel back in time and right the wrongs of history - there may well be falsely attributed works but their falsehood is irrelevant to the music at hand

Now having said that, my position is NOT that there are no false attributions, on the contrary - but personally I can't pick them and nor apparently can Mozart specialists

Is there a Kerschel questionmark folder? If so, I've not heard of it, but I'd think that someone must have compiled one by now

Is there an argument about what if Mozart had never been? There would either exist a vast void in musical history or all these other talented identities and hitherto nonentities may have risen to the surface and brandished their blue ribbons

So as any argument carried to the extreme with result in bickering over semantics the case may be made for 'the school of Mozart' - and who knows precisely what went on at the Accademia Filarmonica wiih someone like Mozart dancing about? It was probably some party!

Also, on the subject of mediafire by billl - someone told me that mediafire is THE malware site, and recommended firefox for downloads from it, and somethig called AdBlocker, and then separately scan any form of files you get from there

Let the facts speak for themselves. That's all we require. Read the article and learn.

Am I going too fast ?

My point was that in the arts it doesn't really matter who created, why created, and when created - attribution and introductions and cataloguing are relatively modern concepts

Who was Homer? Who was Anonymous?

Just because some people want to slam the success of certain artists rather than admit that the world would be a considerably dryer place without them, and that they indeed had influence beyond their lifetimes, is no grounds (in Art) to condemn their achievements

It is a common tactic of the Devil's Advocate Brigade to draw attention to the genius of geniuses by at first deriding them, and then permit the viewer to discover the truth for themselves - and this is clearly what you're doing here

It has nothing to do with Aeronautics or well-trained pilots - Shakespeare didn't go to university and study Shakespeare, if he had he may well have failed (neat little story by Asimov around somewhere), and the process of creation for creation's sake is as valid reason to create something new as any other reason (fame, fortune, immortality, love, personal satisfaction etc)

Yours sincerely, MM

p.s. Did Shakespeare really write Francis Bacon's essays?

Hi there Bill,

The PDF is working fine. Please try again. If not send me a PM and I will happily email it to you.

Regards

I tried downloading that pdf from the mediafire link, but there was a problem.

Be careful, everyone, pdf's can be doorways to malware. (Did anyone else try it?)

MystyrMystyry

01-27-2011, 07:07 AM

Interesting article

So the anecdotal story of Leopold (little Armadeus stringing a string of notes on his hotel bedroom wall and upon analysis told him that it wasn't music, only to be countered by the bastard that if they were encased in staves and other notation they would be music) is apocryphal?

Mein Got! Fathers telling tall stories about their kids abilities! What to expect? They'll be making up fibs down the local pub next!

No, listen, you're quite right - it's outside my field, I read the article and it was the first such thing I've encountered on this debate

But people have been bull****ting (and being suckered) since before the beginning of recorded history (Goliath was only 4'7") - and you can't say that this is news to you - but all 'celebrities' up until the modern internet era were in fact so full of self-promotion, that in the case of Mozart it's minor

Here's this kid who's got a bit of something going on, so what does his genuinely proud father do? He capitalises on it, and Wolfgang learns early the ropes of stardom without fear or favour because it is thrust upon him

Personally, I've never been too bothered by the truth of what I'm told or read (I just doubt it until it can be proven true) - but I've been suckered more often than I care to admit, because if a story sounds true and to me is harmless I don't jump up and down about it

But you're right, Musicology: Is someone writing a corrective history of these biographical fabrications? They should because I for one would I'd like to read all the available information in one place

Musicology

01-27-2011, 07:09 AM

Hi there Yanni,

So glad you have read the most detailed study of the Bologna exam ever made. Things are looking up. I will pass on your compliments to others involved in that detailed research.

Honesty and Academic Integrity 1
The Mozart Industry 0

Thanks to 'Padre Martini'.....

'Mozart and his father visited Bologna twice (24. - 29.3.1770 and 20.7 - around 13.10.1770). During their first and second Italian journey, they were warmly welcomed in Villa Pallavicini* by the Count and his wife. They stayed for three months, soon finding acceptance among the Bolognese artists and scientists. Several musical activities developed. W.A. Mozart passed the difficult exam in the renowned Accademia Filarmonica and was accepted as a new member. Normally, for this honour, one had to be at least 20 years old and the test piece took a few hours. Thanks to Padre Martini, the academy made an exception for Wolfgang, however, who was only 14 year. The authentic sites of this procedure still exist, including the library in which Mozart's father Leopold had waited in during the examination of his son.'

http://www.mozartways.com/content.php?m=2&typ2=16&lang=en

*Propably "Durazzo-Pallavicini" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Durazzo-Pallavicini, http://www.sais.ceur.it/en/finding-accommodation-in-bologna/university-residences/villa-pallavicini/description.aspx?idC=61760&LN=en-US and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giacomo_Filippo_Durazzo

yanni

01-27-2011, 07:28 AM

I didn't!

Hi there Yanni,

So glad you have read the most detailed study of the Bologna exam ever made. Things are looking up. I will pass on your compliments to others involved in that detailed research.

Honesty and Academic Integrity 1
The Mozart Industry 0

Musicology

01-27-2011, 11:25 AM

Great Yanni ! If you have a problem opening the PDF just tell me. By PM. Would you like me to read it for you ? Is this your problem :angel:

Otherwise there is not much point in you posting here, is there ? Especially if you haven't read the subject matter of this thread.

Things really are improving ! The link to the detailed document is working fine.

'The Two Antifonas'
Luca Bianchini (2011)

http://www.mediafire.com/?ra13vd5202p5lbz

I didn't!

The idea of reading all the evidence in one place is the responsibility of honest researchers and writers to provide. There is so much of it that it takes (as you may appreciate) years of study, research and writing. From those who have actually examined the evidence in great detail. But here is one of the most clear and proved cases of major musical fraud you will ever see. Which has been systematically ignored, marginalised and hidden for over 200 years (as the article shows).

Multiply this by hundreds. How did this happen ? It happened because those who write and teach on this subject are not open to criticism, to cross-examination. So the bubble grows to enormous size and it finally takes over the entire history of music. It becomes 'history', and 'culture' and 'orthodoxy'. As a giant and deliberate act of deception. These events of 1770 are just one of a whole series of musical frauds. They are part of something massive. I think music teachers and students should be aware of them. To control music and cultural history is just another objective of those who wish to dominate education (so-called). And where are these 'experts' when you need them ? They are nowhere to be found. LOL ! Just a coincidence, of course.

Interesting article

So the anecdotal story of Leopold (little Armadeus stringing a string of notes on his hotel bedroom wall and upon analysis told him that it wasn't music, only to be countered by the bastard that if they were encased in staves and other notation they would be music) is apocryphal?

Mein Got! Fathers telling tall stories about their kids abilities! What to expect? They'll be making up fibs down the local pub next!

No, listen, you're quite right - it's outside my field, I read the article and it was the first such thing I've encountered on this debate

But people have been bull****ting (and being suckered) since before the beginning of recorded history (Goliath was only 4'7") - and you can't say that this is news to you - but all 'celebrities' up until the modern internet era were in fact so full of self-promotion, that in the case of Mozart it's minor

Here's this kid who's got a bit of something going on, so what does his genuinely proud father do? He capitalises on it, and Wolfgang learns early the ropes of stardom without fear or favour because it is thrust upon him

Personally, I've never been too bothered by the truth of what I'm told or read (I just doubt it until it can be proven true) - but I've been suckered more often than I care to admit, because if a story sounds true and to me is harmless I don't jump up and down about it

But you're right, Musicology: Is someone writing a corrective history of these biographical fabrications? They should because I for one would I'd like to read all the available information in one place

yanni

01-28-2011, 01:58 AM

Mozart's "Koch" manufacture was more or less covered in http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46636, as you are aware Robert, and, if we are to document the fact further, focusing on the whereabouts of all parties involved in his 1770 Bologna music academy cheating is a must.

I intend to do just that by presenting a re timeline when I find the time.

For the moment think about "padre Martini" and "Durazzo-Pallavicini" of my previous and try to link them, if you can, to "Bach/Handel/Amyand-Saint Martin in the fields"*, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Martin-in-the-Fields, "John Taylor" and "Gerhard van Swieten" (from 'The puzzle of Bach Variations" herein, http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54106) and his son Gioachino Cocchi (plus aliases, Durazzo included).

Ta-ta!

*See also John Weldon, organist there as from 1714....and link him to: "Deceased on February 27th, buried on March 2nd, 1784 the so-called Comte de St. Germain and Weldon--further information not known--privately deposited in this church."

Great Yanni ! If you have a problem opening the PDF just tell me. By PM. Would you like me to read it for you ? Is this your problem :angel:

Otherwise there is not much point in you posting here, is there ? Especially if you haven't read the subject matter of this thread.

....... As a giant and deliberate act of deception. These events of 1770 are just one of a whole series of musical frauds. They are part of something massive. I think music teachers and students should be aware of them. To control music and cultural history is just another objective of those who wish to dominate education (so-called). And where are these 'experts' when you need them ? They are nowhere to be found. LOL ! Just a coincidence, of course.

Musicology

01-28-2011, 06:30 AM

Yanni,

So glad you have managed to read the article -

'The Two Antifonas'
Luca Bianchini (2011)

http://www.mediafire.com/?ra13vd5202p5lbz

yanni

01-28-2011, 06:45 AM

I didn't need to, my timeline suffices, thanks!

Yanni,

So glad you have managed to read the article -

'The Two Antifonas'
Luca Bianchini (2011)

http://www.mediafire.com/?ra13vd5202p5lbz

Musicology

01-29-2011, 06:29 AM

Yanni doesn't need to read the subject of this thread. His ''timeline'' suffices. LOL !! Go to the bottom of the class Yanni.

Message to Yanni -

This thread is on ''Mozart, ''Genius'' and Exam Fakery''' (1770). Please read it before you post here. Or people will start to think you are rather silly. We may send you home for being disruptive. Again.

End of Message

Thank You

I didn't need to, my timeline suffices, thanks!

LitNetIsGreat

01-29-2011, 07:12 AM

If you wish to know the reality of Mozart's career, and wish to know what the actual evidence is, you should read the above article. And others like it. If not, you will consume more mythology, lies, and wholesale misinformation. Brought to you by 'experts' you have never once cross-examined. 200 years of fiction, in fact.

Do yourself a favour. Get a list of 'Mozart's' musical works (chronologically) and you might learn something. It's the pagan pantheon served up in the name of culture, education and history (so-called). And every body of academic study stands or falls by whether it can survive cross-examination. Right ?

I will get around to reading the link sometime. I tried it before and it didn't work. However, I have yet to get through some of your other threads first, such as:

(The now infamous) The Manufacture of Mozart thread
The fraudulent life of Albert Einstein [?]
The Earth is Fixed in Space [:shocked:]
The truth of climate change
Remarkable ideas of the Earth/Sun relationship [:ihih:]
AND
Various political conspiracy theory threads...

There's no discounting your obvious enthusiasm for music, but...I can't help thinking that there is a strong theme of conspiracy running through some of this, somehow? I'm desperately in wait of the "I Saw Elvis" thread and frankly disappointed in its absence!

All the best,

Neely.

Lokasenna

01-29-2011, 08:35 AM

(The now infamous) The Manufacture of Mozart thread
The fraudulent life of Albert Einstein [?]
The Earth is Fixed in Space [:shocked:]
The truth of climate change
Remarkable ideas of the Earth/Sun relationship [:ihih:]
AND
Various political conspiracy theory threads...

Don't forget about the Chemtrails thread - that was one of my favourites!

The link in the OP doesn't work for me either, but I suspect that is my University's server blocking it. I'm enjoying the disscussion though - and listening to some Mozart while I do it.

Anyway, so what if Mozart cheated on an exam? I know plenty of people who have cheated on tests and exams who go on to be extremely competent in that area. One moment of cheating can hardly invalidate a whole career or skill-set.

Emil Miller

01-29-2011, 10:27 AM

I'm desperately in wait of the "I Saw Elvis" thread and frankly disappointed in its absence!

All the best,

Neely.

I doubt if Musiclogy would have noticed Elvis even if he saw him, After all, whether we agree with his Mozart theory or not, he is talking about music.
Something which Elvis Presley knew nothing about.

LitNetIsGreat

01-29-2011, 11:50 AM

Don't forget about the Chemtrails thread - that was one of my favourites!

Indeed!!

I doubt if Musiclogy would have noticed Elvis even if he saw him, After all, whether we agree with his Mozart theory or not, he is talking about music.
Something which Elvis Presley knew nothing about.

I'm not picking on the fellow, I'm just being playful. However the merits, or non-merits, of Elvis Presley aside, you have to ask how much this is talking about music and how much it is just raising nonsensical stuff for the sake of it?

Edit: Sorry, but I can't resist posting this, so apt!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q04_ClDxRsk&feature=related ;)

Emil Miller

01-29-2011, 01:49 PM

Indeed!!

I'm not picking on the fellow, I'm just being playful. However the merits, or non-merits, of Elvis Presley aside, you have to ask how much this is talking about music and how much it is just raising nonsensical stuff for the sake of it?

Edit: Sorry, but I can't resist posting this, so apt!!!

I agree that the protracted correspondence on Mozart has gone on far too long and it should have been carried out under the Private Post facility.
As for the video, I think a paraphrasing of Shakespeare just about sums it
up:

It is a noise
Made by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."

The amazing thing is that what came after was worse.

yanni

01-30-2011, 02:59 AM

Here, Robert, another Koch for you:

27 June 1770 Rome: LEOPOLD MOZART TO HIS WIFE IN SALZBURG We arrived here in Rome at 8 o`clock yesterday evening by mail coach, taking 27 hours for a journey that took 4 and a half days by vitturino [1] . But we really flew. Count Kaunitz didn`t arrive until today: I thought it would be better if we travelled on our own as it`s not always possible to find enough horses at the post-stages, in which case we`d have had the honour of spending half a day at the post-stage waiting for the horses to return, all the more so in that I knew that His Excellency General Koch was leaving for Rome with 5 horses and a certain Englishman with 7. And so we left Naples on our own and I told everyone we met that I was the steward of the imperial ambassador, because the stewards of such gentlemen are held in high regard hereabouts. This not only made my journey safer, but I was also given good horses and prompt service, while in Rome I didn`t need to go to the Customs House to have our things examined. Instead I was received at the gate with a deep bow and simply told to drive on… http://letters.mozartways.com

:party:

Questions for all true musicologists to answer:

What was 'His Excellency General Koch' doing in Naples and Rome, alongside Kaunitz, at the time?
Who was he?
How did he relate to the Mozarts?
Who was the 'certain engishman'?

For advanced students only:

How do they all link to Wolfgang-Amadeus's 'padre Martini' and, in particular, to 'abbe Galiani'? Who were these expert musiciens-opera composers?

7 juillet 1770 Abbé Galliani (from Naples?) à Madame d'Epinay: Je crois vous avoir écrit que ce petit Mozart est ici, et qu'il est moins miracle, quoi qu'il soit toujours le meme miracle, mais il ne sera jamais qu'un miracle. Et c'est tout… Adieu encore. Je vous embrasse, en dépit du scandale de Panurge et de tous les envieux de notre tendre correspondance .

Yanni doesn't need to read the subject of this thread. His ''timeline'' suffices. LOL !! Go to the bottom of the class Yanni.

Message to Yanni -

This thread is on ''Mozart, ''Genius'' and Exam Fakery''' (1770). Please read it before you post here. Or people will start to think you are rather silly. We may send you home for being disruptive. Again.

End of Message

Thank You

Musicology

01-30-2011, 08:39 AM

Yanni,

The Grimm/d'Epinay relationship was vital in the bogus 'Enlightenment' philosophy which they managed from Paris from the early 1750's. See also the relationship between Casanova/d'Epinay. You should examine the close relationship of Grimm to the court of Saxe Gotha. And the role of the Russians in Enlightenment ideas after 1762.

As for the letter of 1770 it is clearly a joke between the sender and the reader on the 'miracle' of Mozart who must always be a 'miracle' whenever he is mentioned. That is clearly stated.

The Englishman you wish to identify is probably George Nassau Clavering (1738-89) then Resident in Florence. Later made a Baron of the Holy Roman Empire and a vital contact between the British Empire and the Holy Roman Empire in matters of culture, art and music. And, as for the stage managed progress of the secularisation of society, it involved, of course Benjamin Franklin, elites of Britain and of continental Europe). In a huge revival of pagan religion and philosophy which became, eventually, globalism.

Musicology

01-30-2011, 09:27 AM

Lokasenna,.

'So what if Mozart cheated on his exam', you ask. LOL !!! Well, it is one of literally HUNDREDS of examples of musical fakery in the life, career and supposed achievements of the icon. One of the earliest. But nobody is going to dumb down your academic achievements, right ?

The only one who has been cheated on is yourself. With you as a consumer of fables/ fictions by the bucketload on a giant musical fraud - which you are very happy to be. Mozart, whose iconic status literally dominates your cultural and musical education (so-called) on 18th century musical achievement. Now it's surely my turn to ask you as a consumer of Mozartean myth, 'So what' ??? That's a question only you can answer. Have another beer and watch the movie. It is of no relevance to you.

As for chemtrails, I will resist posting some of the latest filmed evidence of them. These too have no relevance to you and you are again struggling to accept the plain fact of them. Speaking of chemtrails here is not really a good idea. Unless your mis-education forces you, of course ! You raise them on a thread dealing with Mozart. Now, these are the fruits of your excellent education, for sure ! Have another beer.

Don't forget about the Chemtrails thread - that was one of my favourites!

The link in the OP doesn't work for me either, but I suspect that is my University's server blocking it. I'm enjoying the disscussion though - and listening to some Mozart while I do it.

Anyway, so what if Mozart cheated on an exam? I know plenty of people who have cheated on tests and exams who go on to be extremely competent in that area. One moment of cheating can hardly invalidate a whole career or skill-set.

Musicology

01-30-2011, 09:39 AM

You are so right Brian.

What further proof do we need of the fake career of W.A. Mozart than this clearly documented but virtually unknown example from hundreds in his bogus career ? The music exam he took in 1770 in Bologna. Little more needs to be said on that subject - does it ? - which is the subject of this thread. As we both agree. Why, the musicologists are queing up to refute its contents. (LOL) !!

I congratulate you for being able to read the article, the most clearly documented and well researched example of fakery in western classical music. Speaks volumes for your fairness.

And you really deserve to read other threads. By way of recovery. Since there is so much more of the same kind.

But let's not talk of Shakespeare, whose authorship of plays is itself a matter that has been debunked for almost 200 years itself. As you know. Mozart really was the Shakespeare of music, as we all know.

Textbooks and expert musicologists would never lie to us. Politicians, bankers, broadcasters and everyone else. But not them. Would they ? I mean, what is the world coming to ? lol

We await their comments on -

'The Two Antifonas'
Luca Bianchini (2011)

http://www.mediafire.com/?ra13vd5202p5lbz

And a dozen of the same kind which followed. For starters. How is that for proof that cross-examination still exists in our academic world ?

:angel:

I agree that the protracted correspondence on Mozart has gone on far too long and it should have been carried out under the Private Post facility.
As for the video, I think a paraphrasing of Shakespeare just about sums it
up:

It is a noise
Made by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."

The amazing thing is that what came after was worse.

Musicology

01-30-2011, 09:48 AM

You are so right Neely. On threads that relate to a detailed expose on a highly specific subject ('Mozat, ''Genius', and Exam Fakery 1770) we can and must talk of Elvis Presley. There's no business like show business !!!

Now, where are those 'experts' when you need them ?????

LOL !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPyYofkXXoE

Indeed!!

I'm not picking on the fellow, I'm just being playful. However the merits, or non-merits, of Elvis Presley aside, you have to ask how much this is talking about music and how much it is just raising nonsensical stuff for the sake of it?

Edit: Sorry, but I can't resist posting this, so apt!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q04_ClDxRsk&feature=related ;)

Lokasenna

01-30-2011, 11:18 AM

'So what if Mozart cheated on his exam', you ask. LOL !!!

LOL indeed.

Well, it is one of literally HUNDREDS of examples of musical fakery in the life, career and supposed achievements of the icon.

Is it really? I'm rather fond of conspiracy theories (from a spectator perspective), but I have to admit that so far you are the only person I've encountered peddling this one about Mozart.

One of the earliest.

Alas, I still am unable to make the link work, riveting though I'm sure it is.

But nobody is going to dumb down your academic achievements, right ?

Well, I certainly hope not. But then, unlike Mozart, I copyright all my published work. Hmm, I can see it now: "the great Lokasenna fakery - he didn't actually write all those dull articles about Vikings! It was actually a secret collective conspiracy of the 21st century's greatest authors, who just thought it'd be good for a laugh! LOL!"

The only one who has been cheated on is yourself.

And the vast number of other people who appreciate the genius of Mozart, apparently.

With you as a consumer of fables/ fictions by the bucketload on a giant musical fraud - which you are very happy to be.

You are calling cynical old me a consumer of fables and fictions? I have three words for you: pot, kettle, black.

Mozart, whose iconic status literally dominates your cultural and musical education (so-called) on 18th century musical achievement.

Well, there's also Beethoven and Haydn - unless they were in on 'it' as well? Mozart is a major figure, but the 18th century is hardly his alone.

Now it's surely my turn to ask you as a consumer of Mozartean myth, 'So what' ??? That's a question only you can answer.

I'm not sure I can answer it, I'm afraid. I think the quality of Mozart's music speaks for itself - a composer of exceptional ability. If not composed by Mozart himself, then who else was around at that time that had such capability?

Have another beer and watch the movie.

Actually, I think I'll have another cup of tea. Hmm, a movie sounds good as well...

It is of no relevance to you.

Probably, but I'm a talkative soul.

As for chemtrails, I will resist posting some of the latest filmed evidence of them.

A fact for which we are all indebted to you.

These too have no relevance to you

Yep.

and you are again struggling to accept the plain fact of them.

Nope.

Speaking of chemtrails here is not really a good idea.

Yep.

Unless your mis-education forces you, of course !

Nope.

You raise them on a thread dealing with Mozart.

I was merely directing Neely to a debate I thought he might enjoy. You should take it as a compliment that your threads are considered so entertaining.

Now, these are the fruits of your excellent education, for sure !

I'm so glad you think my education is excellent!

Have another beer.

A third cup of tea is on the way!

Musicology

01-30-2011, 11:46 AM

Lokasenna,

You are 'rather fond of conspiracy theories' ? For their own sake. I am sorry I cannot help with your conspiracy theories. They are established facts. While you were sleeping they have been proved. To anyone willing to examine the evidence. Including yourself. All we have are plain facts. Products of examining the evidence. In more detail than anyone else to date. And which nobody has freely shared with you. Till now. And when you are presented with these documentary, plain facts on a highly specific and important case you reply with the masterful answer of, 'So what' ??? LOL !!! This is your attitude so far !! Your education (so-called) causes you to say this. What does this attitude of yours tell us about this subject which we do not already know ? And what does it say of the state of your education ? Nothing worth knowing. And you haven't even read it !!!! I mean - LOL !!! Shall we describe this as an example of a dumbed down student struggling to open a PDF ?

You certainly deserve and will no doubt receive a round of applause from those as educated as yourself. Having said nothing you do seem destined for high position, for sure. LOL !! (It is called the 'Peter Principle' of promoting to a position of complete incompetence). Check it out !

I am 'peddling' nothing. I am presenting and freely sharing (and so are others) documentary, indisputable evidence. Of a kind which, so far, has been simply ignored or trivialised. For over 200 years. And you seem unable to handle this fact. Here is the link again (for the 4th time on this thread). It is working perfectly fine. Are you ready ?

http://www.mediafire.com/?y6x6caeo2a84yfj

You are, you say, appreciating the musical 'genius' of Mozart. What 'genius' are you actually talking about ? His ability to fake music exams at the age of 14 ? Which is really the subject of this thread. That takes real musical genius, doesn't it ? Do please answer with some evidence. Then we can profit from your post. Is that so hard? Who were his music teachers ? When did he learn to pass the music exam he faked in Bologna in 1770 ? Why do your biographies and textbooks conceal these facts ? Can you please tell us ? Who taught Mozart the equivalent of flying a jet airliner (the writing of symphonies, concertos and masses) ? Silence. As usual. Since his father was not trained in music also. Unless you show us differently, of course. And Wolfgang never went to school in his entire lifetime. Not a single day ! If you can show us differently, please do. (That question is years old and maybe you, Lokasenna can finally answer it ?). The word 'genius' is itself an 18th century invention. Don't you know that ? And who wrote the 'Mozart' music before and in the years after that Bologna exam ? Want some more articles on that ???

You refer to the 'vast number of people who appreciate the genius of Mozart'. How many of them have the remotest idea of the actual details of his life and career ? From which source have they 'learned' of it ? How many have fairly examined the evidence ? Other than what they have read in nonsense publications and see in popularised eulogies in films ? At the expense of the lives and careers of hundreds, no, thousands of composers whose names (let alone music) are completely unknown to them !! What sort of education is that ? Really ? It is not only ignorance but wilful ignorance, isn't it ??

Why not do yourself a favour ? Read the article. If you don't understand it take it to someone who does. And wait for their verdict. Does it get more simple ? I mean, can I make it more simple ? You do like reality, don't you ?

The 'quality of Mozart's music speaks for itself' ? Really ? Would you care to give us some examples of it so we can see its origins, its history and its publication dates ? Do these matter ?? The 'quality of Mozart's music' is precisely what we are examining here in this article on Bologna 1770. Why not read it ? There are dozens of other cases we can provide.

Here is a horse.
Here is a river
(The river contains lots of water)

Question - Now that the horse has been led to the water can it be forced to drink it ? I think we know the answer. But hey, don't get sidetracked from the subject of this thread, will you ? And where are those experts when we need them ?:angel:

LOL

yanni

01-30-2011, 12:46 PM

But it was padre Martini, not Galiani, who helped Mozart before Naples and later on in his Bologna exams...

The englishman is propably C.Burney and....

....you failed to comment on His Excellency General Koch-inline with the re Mozart site who go as far as not including him in their alphabetical names list.

Saint Germain was also there (Naples-Venice) at the time (June-July 1770).

How can explain to your readers who and why "manufactured" Mozart in the particular year without a detailed 1770 timeline that includes all involved (Tanucci and Kaunitz too) as well as major relative political events?

Eversince 1767 Naples had banned the Jesuits.

Ta-ta!

:party:

Yanni,

As for the letter of 1770 it is clearly a joke between the sender and the reader on the 'miracle' of Mozart who must always be a 'miracle' whenever he is mentioned. That is clearly stated.

The Englishman you wish to identify is probably George Nassau Clavering (1738-89) then Resident in Florence.

LitNetIsGreat

01-30-2011, 12:47 PM

:crazy: Oh, oh, my head is spinning reading all that!!! Tin hats, tin hats!!

Sorry, forgot this one:

But let's not talk of Shakespeare, whose authorship of plays is itself a matter that has been debunked for almost 200 years itself.

Really? Wow, another myth I've swallowed then. I'll add that to the list as well...:shocked:

Anything else to note? Darwin? Moon landing? The African continent?

Musicology

01-30-2011, 01:29 PM

Yanni,

I prefer not to rely dogmatically on any timelines. We see yours collapsed when you were asked to tell us the conception dates of JS Bach's numerous children - and we are still laughing.

Otherwise there is no problem with timelines. They have an obvious value if data is connected to other data. But they are rarely conclusive in themselves. History happens in a context. That means it relates to more than one subject. Timelines are one of many tools.

Regards

Musicology

01-30-2011, 01:31 PM

Neely,

You have read the article on the 'Two Antifonas', haven't you ?

a. Yes ?

b. No ?

or

c. You can't remember ?

Shall I post you the link again (for the 5th time on this thread) ?? Here it is -

Luca Bianchini
''The Two Antifonas (1770)''

aka 'Mozart, 'Genius' and Exam Fakery (1770)''

http://www.mediafire.com/?y6x6caeo2a84yfj

(Hopefully this will deal with your spinning head).

Regards

:crazy: Oh, oh, my head is spinning reading all that!!! Tin hats, tin hats!!

Sorry, forgot this one:

Really? Wow, another myth I've swallowed then. I'll add that to the list as well...:shocked:

Anything else to note? Darwin? Moon landing? The African continent?

Emil Miller

01-30-2011, 01:40 PM

:

Really? Wow, another myth I've swallowed then. I'll add that to the list as well...:shocked:

Anything else to note? Darwin? Moon landing? The African continent?

Now, now, Neely let's not be disingenuous, you know as well as anybody that the Shakespeare conundrum has been frequently discussed on Litnet without resolution. :biggrin5:

Musicology

01-30-2011, 01:50 PM

Brian is completely correct. The issue has certainly not been resolved. It remains open. And therefore is unresolved. Few want to touch it who are of a conventional (mythological) disposition. Many questions remain on the official career of William Shakespeare of Stratford on Avon. And these have been known and spoken of for over 200 years. Why, there are entire books on the subject. Whole website articles. As Brian can confirm. The world is really a better, more healthy place when convention and monoculture on Shakespeare and on Mozart is open and seen to be open to criticism. I think it's called academic study.

Now, now, Neely let's not be disingenuous, you know as well as anybody that the Shakespeare conundrum has been frequently discussed on Litnet without resolution. :biggrin5:

stlukesguild

01-30-2011, 02:15 PM

Now, now, Neely let's not be disingenuous, you know as well as anybody that the Shakespeare conundrum has been frequently discussed on Litnet without resolution.

Yet the responsibility for proof sits upon him who challenges the accepted facts. The Shakespearean theorists are not in themselves unified as to just who the proposed author is: Marlowe? Francis Bacon? Edward de Vere, Earl of Oxford? William Stanley, Earl of Derby? The one thing that all of these theories share is a certain class resentment... an assumption that no "commoner" such as poor Will could possibly have written literature of such quality. The greatest writer in the whole of the English language... if not in the whole of history... most certainly must have been a proper aristocrat. If the question of Shakespeare's authorship remains unresolved, it only remains so for the simple fact that we shall always have the lunatic fringe and conspiracy theorists with us. Undoubtedly there are those who question the "authorship" of Bach, Handel, Michelangelo, Rembrandt, Rubens, Titian, Dante, Virgil, etc... etc... as well as the truth of the Lincoln assassination, the Kennedy assassination, the Lusitania, the Titanic, the Moon-landing, 911, and the deaths of Elvis and Michael Jackson.

JCamilo

01-30-2011, 02:26 PM

It is rather obvious who has the answer.

Someone tenacious enough to have a double life. To create 2 different personalities. Someone which attempts to write plays on his own language was a complete failure, overshadowed by his peers. Someone which poetic attempts are clusmy due the limitation of the language he found.

Yet, someone with great literary talent. Someone which sense of humor is imense. Someone who died on the same day Shakespeare did.

Yes, you all know who I am talking about.

After all, how come Cervantes could have such talent and be such failure, mediocre while using poetry and playwritting? Because he, on purpose created this Sancho poet, a mediocre version of himself to preserve his money earning in england, something unthinkable for both kings were enemies at that time. Marlowe discovered it and was killed. Cervantes had militar training after all, defeating a gay and drunkyard writer was quite easy. That is so obvious.

See, Cervantes lost hand? A joke - that was his Shakespeare hand!

http://www.grandesmensagens.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/cervantes_1.jpg

http://www.themorgan.org/exhibitions/images/current/CobbePortraitOfShakespeare.jpg

Are we going to deny the obvious similarities between those portraits?

Only a genius like Cervantes, who inveted Don Quixote, could invent Shakespeare.

LitNetIsGreat

01-30-2011, 02:27 PM

Neely,

You have read the article on the 'Two Antifonas', haven't you ?

a. Yes ?

b. No ?

or

c. You can't remember ?

Shall I post you the link again (for the 5th time on this thread) ?? Here it is -

Luca Bianchini
''The Two Antifonas (1770)''

aka 'Mozart, 'Genius' and Exam Fakery (1770)''

http://www.mediafire.com/?y6x6caeo2a84yfj

(Hopefully this will deal with your spinning head).

Regards

Well, against my better judgement I downloaded the link (saved it first!) and started to read it a little. But then I thought, what the hell am I doing reading this link which has been posted by a Mozart, Shakespeare, Einstein denying political conspiracy theorist, chem trail fan, who believes that the earth is fixed in space and who knows the truth of climate change? I thought, seriously I have better things to do.

Musicology

01-30-2011, 02:35 PM

Neely is so smart he posts on this thread on subjects that have absolutely nothing to do with the thread itself. This is normal. (He comes from that sort of culture and it's par for the course in his mind).

He can't even read the PDF which was offered at the start of the thread. He saved it but couldn't continue. No, he is not dumbed down. You musn't think that ! He is a brilliant scholar. Reading it would require him to switch off his ball game to make any real progress. 'Mozart, Genius and Exam Fakery (1770)' is a subject he needs to read on before he actually comments on it, don't you agree ? What a funny man he is ! There is your modern education in a nutshell !!! What a dumbed down generation ! LOL !!!

Laugh or cry - he loves fooling himself. And so, once again - Mr Horse, here is some Water -

Luca Bianchini
''The Two Antifonas (1770)''
aka 'Mozart, 'Genius' and Exam Fakery (1770)''

http://www.mediafire.com/?y6x6caeo2a84yfj

We really should send him a six pack of beer if he actually reads it. Because that boy has great career prospects if he continues much longer. Mozart was a genius. We all 'know' that, don't we ? Quick, pass me another beer ! 'Everything you've heard is true' says the trailer to that film, 'Amadeus' (as we all know). LOL !!

Well, against my better judgement I downloaded the link (saved it first!) and started to read it a little. But then I thought, what the hell am I doing reading this link which has been posted by a Mozart, Shakespeare, Einstein denying political conspiracy theorist, chem trail fan, who believes that the earth is fixed in space and who knows the truth of climate change? I thought, seriously I have better things to do.

yanni

01-30-2011, 02:52 PM

As Your Grace prefers!

:icon_bs:

Yanni,

I prefer not to rely dogmatically on any timelines. We see yours collapsed when you were asked to tell us the conception dates of JS Bach's numerous children - and we are still laughing.

Otherwise there is no problem with timelines. They have an obvious value if data is connected to other data. But they are rarely conclusive in themselves. History happens in a context. That means it relates to more than one subject. Timelines are one of many tools.

Regards

Musicology

01-30-2011, 02:54 PM

Yanni, the quality of your last post is definitely far higher than those of the last few hours.

Does this fact please you ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGuOVXM-J_U&feature=fvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtTIlSIqGoE&feature=related

Regards

As Your Grace prefers!

:icon_bs:

LitNetIsGreat

01-30-2011, 03:21 PM

Neely is so smart he posts on this thread on subjects that have absolutely nothing to do with the thread itself. This is normal. (He comes from that sort of culture and it's par for the course in his mind).

He can't even read the PDF which was offered at the start of the thread. He saved it but couldn't continue. No, he is not dumbed down. You musn't think that ! He is a brilliant scholar. Reading it would require him to switch off his ball game to make any real progress. 'Mozart, Genius and Exam Fakery (1770)' is a subject he needs to read on before he actually comments on it, don't you agree ? What a funny man he is ! There is your modern education in a nutshell !!! What a dumbed down generation ! LOL !!!

Laugh or cry - he loves fooling himself. And so, once again - Mr Horse, here is some Water -

Luca Bianchini
''The Two Antifonas (1770)''
aka 'Mozart, 'Genius' and Exam Fakery (1770)''

http://www.mediafire.com/?y6x6caeo2a84yfj

We really should send him a six pack of beer if he actually reads it. Because that boy has great career prospects if he continues much longer. Mozart was a genius. We all 'know' that, don't we ? Quick, pass me another beer ! 'Everything you've heard is true' says the trailer to that film, 'Amadeus' (as we all know). LOL !!

:lol::lol: By all means send me the beer... Really, you can't expect people to take you seriously, can you?

Neely is so smart he posts on this thread on subjects that have absolutely nothing to do with the thread itself.

Really? I think it is quite fundamental. You post all sorts of nonsense and then get mad when nobody takes you seriously!! Ever heard of the boy who cried wolf? You are that boy, except this time, there is no wolf.

Enjoy your evening. :lol::lol:

Emil Miller

01-30-2011, 03:21 PM

.....
[Yet the responsibility for proof sits upon him who challenges the accepted facts. The Shakespearean theorists are not in themselves unified as to just who the proposed author is: Marlowe? Francis Bacon? Edward de Vere, Earl of Oxford? William Stanley, Earl of Derby?

But they are all agreed as to who didn't write the plays/sonnets etc.

The one thing that all of these theories share is a certain class resentment... an assumption that no "commoner" such as poor Will could possibly have written literature of such quality. The greatest writer in the whole of the English language... if not in the whole of history... most certainly must have been a proper aristocrat.

This is the assumption but there is nothing to substantiate it except perhaps a reverse class resentment.

If the question of Shakespeare's authorship remains unresolved, it only remains so for the simple fact that we shall always have the lunatic fringe and conspiracy theorists with us.

That would be true if the lunatic fringe didn't include such Shakespeare luminaries as John Gielgud, Orson Welles, Derek Jacobi etc etc.

Musicology

01-30-2011, 03:26 PM

St Lukesguild has raised some interesting points. They all have in common the fact that powerful evidence exists to show the official version of what we teach and believe cannot possibly be correct. Shakespeare is a plain example. The Titanic another. The Moonlandings, 9/11, the Kennedy Assassination etc. There is nobody today who can honestly say the official story on all of these is consistent with itself or with the evidence that has been presented against them over the years. That's just honest and plain fact. And that means, in the real world, criticism and cross-examination is vital, ongoing and should never be stopped. Unless we wish to deny facts are contradicting what we believe.

Since this thread is really on Mozart and his legendary talents (which I wish to remain the subject of this thread) I believe the subject here (the exam taken by the 14 year old Mozart in 1770) deserves to be read and considered in the light of what modern researchers have actually discovered on it. Which you can read here for yourself. Freely and without any obligation. Such things really are the product of great research. That article is the most detailed of its kind made in 200 years of Mozart research. Show us differently if you can. Whether or not it contradicts what we have read and been taught. If someone thinks differently they are free to tell us their own view. (You notice they have nothing much to say of the actual subject ? Wonder why ? It's because there is really nothing they can say). Let's see if time will rescue convention from the well known story. Because there are a whole series of similar articles that can be posted on Mozart's career of a similar kind. I hope those who don't want to consider such things will find another thread to read and post on. The 'official' version is ALWAYS wrong. Start there. Common sense is not 'out there'. It's right between your ears.

Luca Bianchini
''The Two Antifonas (1770)''
aka 'Mozart, 'Genius' and Exam Fakery (1770)''

http://www.mediafire.com/?y6x6caeo2a84yfj

Thanks

Now, now, Neely let's not be disingenuous, you know as well as anybody that the Shakespeare conundrum has been frequently discussed on Litnet without resolution.

Yet the responsibility for proof sits upon him who challenges the accepted facts. The Shakespearean theorists are not in themselves unified as to just who the proposed author is: Marlowe? Francis Bacon? Edward de Vere, Earl of Oxford? William Stanley, Earl of Derby? The one thing that all of these theories share is a certain class resentment... an assumption that no "commoner" such as poor Will could possibly have written literature of such quality. The greatest writer in the whole of the English language... if not in the whole of history... most certainly must have been a proper aristocrat. If the question of Shakespeare's authorship remains unresolved, it only remains so for the simple fact that we shall always have the lunatic fringe and conspiracy theorists with us. Undoubtedly there are those who question the "authorship" of Bach, Handel, Michelangelo, Rembrandt, Rubens, Titian, Dante, Virgil, etc... etc... as well as the truth of the Lincoln assassination, the Kennedy assassination, the Lusitania, the Titanic, the Moon-landing, 911, and the deaths of Elvis and Michael Jackson.

Lokasenna

01-30-2011, 03:41 PM

Oh, Musicology - thank you for such a fantastic reply! I can honestly say that I haven't laughed this hard in weeks.

You are 'rather fond of conspiracy theories' ? For their own sake.

Oh yes! As one who studies mythologies, our modern myth-making is just as psychologically fascinating to me as those our forefathers dreamed up.

I am sorry I cannot help with your conspiracy theories.

Au contraire! You're one of my best sources for them!

They are established facts.

They are not.

While you were sleeping they have been proved.

Golly! All that twaddle processed while I was sleeping!

All we have are plain facts.

I think you and I have a very different definition of 'fact'...

Products of examining the evidence.

...and indeed what constitutes 'evidence'

And when you are presented with these documentary, plain facts on a highly specific and important case you reply with the masterful answer of, 'So what' ??? LOL !!!

Yep.

This is your attitude so far !! Your education (so-called) causes you to say this. What does this attitude of yours tell us about this subject which we do not already know ?

My education leads me to look at things sensibly and rationally. Occam's razor, my dear fellow!

And what does it say of the state of your education ? Nothing worth knowing.

Well, I did decide to do a PhD on Norse literature... for most people, that probably isn't worth knowing about. Score one to you, old boy!

And you haven't even read it !!!! I mean - LOL !!!

'"What sort of person," said Salzella patiently, "sits down and writes a maniacal laugh? And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Four? A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head. Opera can do that to a man."' - Terry Pratchett, Maskerade.

Shall we describe this as an example of a dumbed down student struggling to open a PDF ?

Nope, we shall descibe it as an example of MediaFire being on the University's list of blocked websites. Why that is, I can't imagine - there's obviously so much educational material on it.

You certainly deserve and will no doubt receive a round of applause from those as educated as yourself. Having said nothing you do seem destined for high position, for sure. LOL !!

Crikey, that's an endorsement! Thanks, M!

I am 'peddling' nothing. I am presenting and freely sharing (and so are others) documentary, indisputable evidence. Of a kind which, so far, has been simply ignored or trivialised. For over 200 years.

Have you ever stopped to wonder why they have been ignored or trivialised?

And you seem unable to handle this fact.

Not at all! I've simply long since stopped caring, dear boy!

You are, you say, appreciating the musical 'genius' of Mozart. What 'genius' are you actually talking about ?

Right now, I'm listening to the 20th Piano Concerto. I need no further proof of genius.

His ability to fake music exams at the age of 14 ? Which is really the subject of this thread.

Come now, let's be honest - the topic of the exam is nothing more than a springboard for you to attack Mozart as a whole. You do, and quote, refer to him as "a giant musical fraud" do you not?

Who were his music teachers ?

Leopold Mozart, his father. This is well know history, my dear fellow!

Why do your biographies and textbooks conceal these facts ? Can you please tell us ?

What, you mean why do they print established truth instead of ranted nonsense? I think the reasons are pretty obvious.

Who taught Mozart the equivalent of flying a jet airliner (the writing of symphonies, concertos and masses) ?

Leopold Mozart, his father. On a related note, I'd love to see Mozart flying a jet airliner - presumably he'd be releasing chemicals into the sky while doing so?

Since his father was not trained in music also.

Um, yes he was (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Mozart). His Toy Symphony is still regularly performed even today.

And Wolfgang never went to school in his entire lifetime. Not a single day !

Neither did Einstien. Oh, hang on - you don't believe in him either, do you old boy? What about Dickens, Bruckner, Churchill, Benjamin Franklin, Robert Frost, C. S. Lewis, Mendelssohn, Shaw and Twain, to name but a few of the many famous people who never went to school.

The word 'genius' is itself an 18th century invention. Don't you know that ?

Yep. The telescope is a pretty recent invention, but I still use it to look at events that happened thousands of years ago.

Want some more articles on that ???

Not particularly.

You refer to the 'vast number of people who appreciate the genius of Mozart'.

You refer to the 'vast number of people who appreciate the genius of Mozart'. How many of them have the remotest idea of the actual details of his life and career ? From which source have they 'learned' of it ? How many have fairly examined the evidence ?

There are, I understand, lots of contemporary accounts of Mozart. Plenty of letters have been preserved as well. As someone who is leaning heavily on one piece of 'evidence', you shouldn't poke holes, my dear fellow!

Other than what they have read in nonsense publications and see in popularised eulogies in films ?

Says the man armed with a thousand loopy websites! And if you're referring to Amadeus, I've never seen it. Looks quite good though!

At the expense of the lives and careers of hundreds, no, thousands of composers whose names (let alone music) are completely unknown to them !!

I've no idea where this idea has come from, old boy! Are the voices coming through loud and clear?

What sort of education is that ? Really ? It is not only ignorance but wilful ignorance, isn't it ??

I think that answers itself.

Why not do yourself a favour ? Read the article. If you don't understand it take it to someone who does. And wait for their verdict. Does it get more simple ? I mean, can I make it more simple ?

Sorry, my old mucker! The server says no, so there'll be no looking at that article for me!

You do like reality, don't you ?

I wouldn't be having this conversation if I didn't.

The 'quality of Mozart's music speaks for itself' ? Really ? Would you care to give us some examples of it so we can see its origins, its history and its publication dates ?

I refer you to the aforementionedpiano concerto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Concerto_No._20_%28Mozart%29). Seems pretty solidly recorded to me, dear boy!

Here is a horse.
Here is a river
(The river contains lots of water)

Question - Now that the horse has been led to the water can it be forced to drink it ? I think we know the answer.

Here is a thread.
Here is a troll
(The thread contains a lot of twaddle)

And where are those experts when we need them ?

I think the quality of this debate is a little beneath them. Just because something isn't dignified with a response, it doesn't mean it gains any form of legitimacy.

Once again, thank you M! I find your particular brand of venom most refreshing!

Musicology

01-30-2011, 03:47 PM

Lokasenna,

Here is some free information that will help you in your studies.

Unless/until you have actually read the subject of a thread you should avoid making a fool of yourself in talking on a subject you know zero about.

If/when you finally open the PDF please post us your thoughts on its content.

You are coming across as one seriously dumbed down kid who wishes to share the fact of his complete ignorance with anyone who reads this thread.

Luca Bianchini
''The Two Antifonas (1770)''

aka 'Mozart, 'Genius' and Exam Fakery (1770)''

http://www.mediafire.com/?y6x6caeo2a84yfj

stlukesguild

01-30-2011, 04:14 PM

Oh yes! As one who studies mythologies, our modern myth-making is just as psychologically fascinating to me as those our forefathers dreamed up.

True... if only Robert and Yanni's posts weren't so top-heavy with deadened pseudo documentation they might be worthy of a mythology ala Borges... or at least Umberto Eco. Perhaps they both might do well to learn from Borges considering restraint... reservation... simplicity... and clarity.:ihih:

And Wolfgang never went to school in his entire lifetime. Not a single day !

Neither did Einstien. Oh, hang on - you don't believe in him either, do you old boy? What about Dickens, Bruckner, Churchill, Benjamin Franklin, Robert Frost, C. S. Lewis, Mendelssohn, Shaw and Twain, to name but a few of the many famous people who never went to school.

And don't forget William Blake. And all that's known of Leonardo da Vinci's education is that he made some informal studies in Latin... but he's probably fake, too. And then there's J.S. Bach (Ah! Bach!). Who were his teachers? His father and older brother. Sounds somewhat familiar. And Picasso? Again studied under his father... a mediocre painter and teacher. How can the student possibly have excelled the teacher?

Mutatis-Mutandis

01-30-2011, 04:29 PM

The pejorative nature of Musicology's posts makes me very hesitant to believe anything he has to say.

And, I read over the PDF. It contains no facts that I found, just speculation.

Musicology

01-30-2011, 04:42 PM

Hi there St Lukesguild,

Can you show me an example of what you call 'pseudo-documentation' in the subject under discussion ? That is, from the PDF already posted on Mozart's music exam in Bologna of 1770. I look forward to seeing an example.

The only 'pseduo documentation' is what has been written on that subject over the past 200 years in 'expert' books and articles, as is shown in the contents of the PDF itself. You have read it, haven't you ? Here is the PDF once again. Please show us which document presented here is of that kind -

Luca Bianchini
''The Two Antifonas (1770)''

aka 'Mozart, 'Genius' and Exam Fakery (1770)''

http://www.mediafire.com/?y6x6caeo2a84yfj

Thanks

Oh yes! As one who studies mythologies, our modern myth-making is just as psychologically fascinating to me as those our forefathers dreamed up.

True... if only Robert and Yanni's posts weren't so top-heavy with deadened pseudo documentation they might be worthy of a mythology ala Borges... or at least Umberto Eco. Perhaps they both might do well to learn from Borges considering restraint... reservation... simplicity... and clarity.:ihih:

No, Wolfgang Mozart never went to school for a single day in his entire life. Nor did he ever study music under any recognised teacher. At any time. This fact may explain why his early manuscripts are a total musical disaster, as we see here with the actual exam paper made in Bologna in 1770, at the age of 14 - the one they never show you in the textbooks. (Because the one you usually see is the later version given to him in Bologna by Padre Martini). Which is what this PDF is already about. You already know this, don't you ? Having read the PDF. Right ?

Which part of this message do you not understand yet ?

Show us some evidence of Mozart's musical studies under the valet/seller of music Leopold Mozart ? Can you show us any evidence of Leopold Mozart teaching harmony and voices to his son in the entire Mozart family literature ? Can you show us evidence of Leopold teaching music to anyone during his entire lifetime ? He did nothing but copy existing music. That is a plain, indisputable fact. Show us differently. Let's stop the fairy stories.

There is no major composer in the entire history of western music who has written major works without studying under recognised teachers of music. Not one. Let's stop this mythology when the facts so plainly contradict the fictions. Does this make sense to you ? To write masses, symphonies, concertos, and operas you have to know what you are doing. Right ? Does this contradict your education ? Mozart at the age of 14 knew virtually nothing of harmony or voices. This is able to be shown by dozens of examples. A clear case already given here in the PDF. And there are dozens more. Let's stop the mythology. Have you any idea of the music he is credited with writing before and after Bologna 1770 ? Does it interest you that it too shows dozens of proofs of NOT being by W.A. Mozart ?

That doesn't matter also. Of course. It never does. LOL. You have been grossly misinformed. Why not consider the actual evidence from both sides and then form your verdict. Because, at the moment you frankly have nothing except to repeat popular fiction.

More articles will follow on the music of Mozart's early career. The same story once again. And once again you will ignore it, because the facts contradict your textbooks. A pattern is emerging here of facts versus popular fictions. As usual.

And Wolfgang never went to school in his entire lifetime. Not a single day !

Neither did Einstien. Oh, hang on - you don't believe in him either, do you old boy? What about Dickens, Bruckner, Churchill, Benjamin Franklin, Robert Frost, C. S. Lewis, Mendelssohn, Shaw and Twain, to name but a few of the many famous people who never went to school.

And don't forget William Blake. And all that's known of Leonardo da Vinci's education is that he made some informal studies in Latin... but he's probably fake, too. And then there's J.S. Bach (Ah! Bach!). Who were his teachers? His father and older brother. Sounds somewhat familiar. And Picasso? Again studied under his father... a mediocre painter and teacher. How can the student possibly have excelled the teacher?

Lokasenna

01-30-2011, 05:01 PM

Aw, M! No long post for me to play with?

Here is some free information that will help you in your studies.

Doubtful, unless Mozart was a Viking.

you should avoid making a fool of yourself

But you make it look so much fun, dear boy!

talking on a subject you know zero about

Says the fellow who apparently hasn't heard of Leopold Mozart. Slightly hypocritical, my dear chap!

If/when you finally open the PDF please post us your thoughts on its content.

Alas, like Tantalus, I am tormented by the apple (of slightly ropey knowledge) hanging ever above me, ever unreachable.

You are coming across as one seriously dumbed down kid

You know, I have often wondered how old you think I am. It's really flattering to be considered so young! I really should update that profile picture.

who wishes to share the fact of his complete ignorance with anyone who reads this thread.

I was not aware that the dissemination of ignorance in this thread was your singular right and privilege - my apologies for stepping on your toes, old boy!

:ihih:

Musicology

01-30-2011, 05:03 PM

You have read the PDF and found no facts in it ? LOL

So the music librarian of the Bologna Academy (who studied and wrote on two different versions of the exam paper in Mozart's hand) was wrong and the textbooks (which have ignored this fact for over 150 years) are right. Since those textbooks published the version of Padre Martini (and not that actually made by W.A. Mozart) !!! It's hilarious. That fact has been around since the mid 19th century. But it features in none of the textbooks.

I think you are a fruitcake. A clown. I think (and know) this article is not for you. Have another beer and watch the match. You deserve one. Nobody fools you, right ? Read p. 12-14. No, I've a better idea, just have another beer and watch the match.

The pejorative nature of Musicology's posts makes me not believe anything he has to say.

And, I read over the PDF. It contains no facts that I found, just speculation.

Do they laugh at you at school ? I wonder why.

Do yourself a service. Get to a computer and read the PDF. Can you handle such a task ?

But hey, just have another beer and read some more Nietzsche. It will dumb you down even more and they will think you so smart !

I know a friend who keeps a horse. It knows more of music than you do. As for Nietschze he fell under one. And went mad in the last year of his life. Have another beer and watch the match. The way smart kids do.

Poor Mr Nietszche -

On January 3, 1889, Nietzsche suffered a mental collapse. Two policemen approached him after he caused a public disturbance in the streets of Turin. What actually happened remains unknown, but an often-repeated tale states that Nietzsche witnessed the whipping of a horse at the other end of the Piazza Carlo Alberto, ran to the horse, threw his arms up around its neck to protect the horse, and then collapsed to the ground.
Hmmpfh !!!

Aw, M! No long post for me to play with?

Doubtful, unless Mozart was a Viking.

But you make it look so much fun, dear boy!

Says the fellow who apparently hasn't heard of Leopold Mozart. Slightly hypocritical, my dear chap!

Alas, like Tantalus, I am tormented by the apple (of slightly ropey knowledge) hanging ever above me, ever unreachable.

You know, I have often wondered how old you think I am. It's really flattering to be considered so young! I really should update that profile picture.

I was not aware that the dissemination of ignorance in this thread was your singular right and privilege - my apologies for stepping on your toes, old boy!

:ihih: