How true is this!

[Fuzzy_duck]

"It's like we've been flung back in time," he said. "Here we are in the Stone Age, knowing all these great things after centuries of progress but what can we do to make life easier for the Stone Agers? Can we make a refrigerator? Can we even explain how it works? What is electricity? What is light? We experience these things every day of our lives but what good does it do if we find ourselves hurled back in time and we can't even tell people the basic principles much less actually make something that would improve conditions. Name one thing you could make. Could you make a simple wooden match that you could strike on a rock to make a flame? We think we're so great and modern. Moon landings, artificial hearts. But what if you were hurled into a time warp and came face to face with the ancient Greeks. The Greeks invented trigonometry. They did autopsies and dissections. What could you tell an ancient Greek that he couldn't say, 'Big deal.' Could you tell him about the atom? Atom is a Greek word. The Greeks knew that the major events in the universe can't be seen by the eye of man.
It's waves, it's rays, it's particles."
"We're doing all right."
"We're sitting in this huge moldy room. It's like we're flung back."
"We have heat, we have light."
"These are Stone Age things. They had heat and light. They had fire. They rubbed flints together and made sparks. Could you rub flints together? Would you know a flint if you saw one? If a Stoner Ager asked you what a nucleotide is, could you tell him? How do we make carbon paper? What is glass? If you came awake tomorrow in the Middle Ages and there was
an epidemic raging, what could you do to stop it, knowing what you know about the progress of medicines and diseases? Here it is practically the twenty-first century and you've read hundreds of books and magazines and seen a hundred TV shows about science and medicine.
Could you tell those people one little crucial thing that might save a million and a half lives?"
"'Boil your water,' I'd tell them."
"Sure. What about 'Wash behind your ears.' That's about as good."
"I still think we're doing fairly well. There was no warning. We have food, we have radios."
"What is a radio? What is the principle of a radio? Go ahead, explain. You're sitting in the
middle of this circle of people. They use pebble tools. They eat grubs. Explain a radio."
"There's no mystery. Powerful transmitters send signals. They travel through the air, to be picked up by receivers."
"They travel through the air. What, like birds? Why not tell them magic? They travel through the air in magic waves. What is a nucleotide? You don't know, do you? Yet these are the building blocks of life. What good is knowledge if it just floats in the air? It goes from computer to computer. It changes and grows every second of every day. But nobody actually knows
anything."

Extract from The White Noise by Don DeLillo.

I never thought about this scenario in a thorough way.
We are surrounded by tons of knowledge that we never acquire.
This fragment proves my theory that humans never evolved from since Adam and Eve. Sure, we have internet and dialysis and all the goodies, but in biblical times they already had genetic manipulation technologies (a theory says this was thought by the devils... yes, I'm a biblical obsessed freak) . So we are always at the same level no matter what period of time we live in, just in different domains.

[prendrelemick]

Its true, the earliest man had exactly the same intelligence as modern man. But he would've been preoccupied with survival. When systems were devised to enable many to live together, agriculture for instance, ideas could spread and be developed by the many. This used to be called progress.

[dafydd manton]

Interesting point that when Europe was messing about with the Bronze age, the Israelites had built the temple in Jerusalem, and the Egyptians had built the pyramids. Both worked with gold, silver, precious stones, copper....... Western man isn't as clever as he'd like to think!

[prendrelemick]

Its probably no coincidence that areas with warm climates, rich soil and reliable water supply were the "cradles of civilisation" ie the Nile the Euphrates and the Indus. Only there could a critical mass of people gather and begin thinking and acting beyond the necessities of survival. BUT they were no more or less intellegent than the caveman. The farmer growing his barley on the banks of the nile, would have no idea how to catch a wooly mammoth.

[Emil Miller]

Its probably no coincidence that areas with warm climates, rich soil and reliable water supply were the "cradles of civilisation" ie the Nile the Euphrates and the Indus. Only there could a critical mass of people gather and begin thinking and acting beyond the necessities of survival. BUT they were no more or less intellegent than the caveman. The farmer growing his barley on the banks of the nile, would have no idea how to catch a wooly mammoth.

This conjures up the fascinating picture of Einstein trying to figure out the best way to catch a woolly mammoth.

[Dodo25]

Its probably no coincidence that areas with warm climates, rich soil and reliable water supply were the "cradles of civilisation" ie the Nile the Euphrates and the Indus. Only there could a critical mass of people gather and begin thinking and acting beyond the necessities of survival. BUT they were no more or less intellegent than the caveman. The farmer growing his barley on the banks of the nile, would have no idea how to catch a wooly mammoth.

Definitely no coincident. This is the premise of a great book on history, Jared Diamond's 'Guns, Germs and Steel'. It explains why history unravelled the way it did, why Spain invaded the Mexican cultures and not the other way around.

@Topic, I think the talking character makes some good points, yet he also misses the central point. What makes culture so powerful is interdependent specialization. There's not a single person on earth that knows how to make a pen. The design work is broken down into little steps, eventually, hundreds of people contribute to fabricating something like a pen.

The point is that it's not simply knowledge, it is a whole cultural network that makes us such a fascinating species. And you can't simply transfer that back to the Stone Age.

Having said that, there actually are some things a well-educated 21st century person could teach Stone Age people, for instance:

Telling them that it isn't necessary to sacrifice humans or other animals. Telling them the facts about female sexuality so they stop demonizing it or punishing the women during their periods.

Telling them how to most-efficiently cultivate crops with the given tools (three-field crop rotation).

Telling them about the scientific method.

Telling them about hygiene.

Invention like the wheel, pulley block and WRITING. The last definitely being the most important one.

Given these, and some more 'hints' for cultural evolution (not by experts who research the subjects but by well-educated individuals), I think one could speed up the process so that 5000 BC people arrive at modern technology in 2000 BC or earlier.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I think there is a big problem in our society at the moment in regards to losing touch with a lot of basic things. I don't want to go hippy man, but I think losing touch with nature or at least some root issues - the basics, is not good. There's a lot of joy to be found in simple things, which a lot of people seem to be slipping away from; you know all of this facebook-mobile phone-celebrity obsessed-reality TV-gossip-celebrity love island business - it ain't any good, none of it! If it was up to me we would return to something much more wholesome.

I feel a revolution coming on!!!

[The Atheist]

If it was up to me we would return to something much more wholesome.

And here was me thinking Pol Pot was dead.

[Propter W.]

If my father ever taught me anything useful, it was how to make fire. I've learnt quite a few survival skills over the years.

Anyway, I'd tell them to give up agriculture.

[LitNetIsGreat]

And here was me thinking Pol Pot was dead.

No. This century needs a new peaceful revolution, and it needs to start right now (well maybe tomorrow after work) I'm putting you in the team and we need a few more and then we are all set to go.

We need to get back to what is good, honest and wholesome in life. We need good food and drink, to be able to feel the earth between our fingers and to take joy in the moment. We also need art (obviously) and Belgian beer, then we are all set.

Everyone's invited.

[prendrelemick]

Definitely no coincident. This is the premise of a great book on history, Jared Diamond's 'Guns, Germs and Steel'. It explains why history unravelled the way it did, why Spain invaded the Mexican cultures and not the other way around.

@Topic, I think the talking character makes some good points, yet he also misses the central point. What makes culture so powerful is interdependent specialization. There's not a single person on earth that knows how to make a pen. The design work is broken down into little steps, eventually, hundreds of people contribute to fabricating something like a pen.

The point is that it's not simply knowledge, it is a whole cultural network that makes us such a fascinating species. And you can't simply transfer that back to the Stone Age.

Having said that, there actually are some things a well-educated 21st century person could teach Stone Age people, for instance:

Telling them that it isn't necessary to sacrifice humans or other animals. Telling them the facts about female sexuality so they stop demonizing it or punishing the women during their periods.

Telling them how to most-efficiently cultivate crops with the given tools (three-field crop rotation).

Telling them about the scientific method.

Telling them about hygiene.

Invention like the wheel, pulley block and WRITING. The last definitely being the most important one.

Given these, and some more 'hints' for cultural evolution (not by experts who research the subjects but by well-educated individuals), I think one could speed up the process so that 5000 BC people arrive at modern technology in 2000 BC or earlier.

Non of these things would be any use until the day to day struggle for survival can be alleviated. You can sow wheat, only if you have time and resources to wait for it to ripen.


No. This century needs a new peaceful revolution, and it needs to start right now (well maybe tomorrow after work) I'm putting you in the team and we need a few more and then we are all set to go.

We need to get back to what is good, honest and wholesome in life. We need good food and drink, to be able to feel the earth between our fingers and to take joy in the moment. We also need art (obviously) and Belgian beer, then we are all set.

Everyone's invited.

Speaking as someone who has experienced agriculture first hand, you spend a lot of time cold, wet and covered in sh-t.

[prendrelemick]

This conjures up the fascinating picture of Einstein trying to figure out the best way to catch a woolly mammoth.


It puts Relativity into perspective.

[Emil Miller]

... you know all of this facebook-mobile phone-celebrity obsessed-reality TV-gossip-celebrity love island business - it ain't any good, none of it! If it was up to me we would return to something much more wholesome.

I feel a revolution coming on!!!


With you 100% which is why I ignore it all. However, I feel that the coming revolution is already a lost cause, as there will be millions of trivia obsessed zombies on the other side of the barricades.

[keilj]

With you 100% which is why I ignore it all. However, I feel that the coming revolution is already a lost cause, as there will be millions of trivia obsessed zombies on the other side of the barricades.

"They won't give peace a chance
That was just a dream some of us had"

-Joni Mitchell

[Emil Miller]

"They won't give peace a chance
That was just a dream some of us had"

-Joni Mitchell

Am I missing something?

[OrphanPip]

I really don't want to go back to an agricultural lifestyle. I like my monotonous lab work, my microscope is my friend.

Edit: Well I don't actually like it, but I like it more than heavy lifting and getting my hands dirty.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Speaking as someone who has experienced agriculture first hand, you spend a lot of time cold, wet and covered in sh-t.


I really don't want to go back to an agricultural lifestyle. I like my monotonous lab work, my microscope is my friend.



Hold on. I'm not talking about totally rejecting modern life and returning to the plow and cart; I'm talking about putting a little balance and common sense back into play. (Though, really I'm with Brian it is a lost cause, I figured that a long time ago, however...)

I've just had a salad and yogurt. Most of the ingredients came from out of the UK. Tomatoes and peppers from Holland, chillies from Kenya, cucumber from god knows where, yogurt produced in Germany, etc, etc, it seems impossible to get an apple that's "produced" in Britain - the things grow on bloomin' trees, 3 potatoes cost more than a pint of beer, etc, etc, it is all crazy. What's the harm in growing a few things and occasionally turning off the holy TV - to get out walking or cycling in the country?

Quality. For me that is king. Time to sit and eat and drink with friends. Enjoy the fine and simple things in life. That's all.

What we need is a healthy balance - a balance between the real world and the world that most people are stuck in - the world full of celebrity-reality-stars and facebook obsessed, mobile phone hugging lunatics, etc, etc...

Edit: sorry, kind of nothing to do much with the OP, though it triggered it off somewhat.

[Emil Miller]

It puts Relativity into perspective.



:biggrin5:

[Serena03]

It was a completely different culture back then. We worked and cultivated with what little we had until further discoveries were made from our own perseverance. We started from the grass roots and worked our way to becoming an entire forest of innovation. True the 'stone age' man may not have been any more or less smarter than the modern man, assuming we are all still with the homo sapien race, where would we be today without early innovation like the wheel? But we certainly have come a long way from previous generations such as neanderthals. Hence why they died out, they could not adapt well to the changing environment and were not very innovative, always using the same tools without any enhancement.

It is a big puzzling world out there, and we probably have not even chipped the tip of the iceberg of understanding it.Some of us are willing to get back to our agriculture and natural roots while others want to use the more technological approach. There is no wrong way for learning, but have yet to come up with a way to make it more cohesive.

[Propter W.]

It was a completely different culture back then. We worked and cultivated with what little we had until further discoveries were made from our own perseverance. We started from the grass roots and worked our way to becoming an entire forest of innovation. True the 'stone age' man may not have been any more or less smarter than the modern man, assuming we are all still with the homo sapien race, where would we be today without early innovation like the wheel? But we certainly have come a long way from previous generations such as neanderthals. Hence why they died out, they could not adapt well to the changing environment and were not very innovative, always using the same tools without any enhancement.

It is a big puzzling world out there, and we probably have not even chipped the tip of the iceberg of understanding it.Some of us are willing to get back to our agriculture and natural roots while others want to use the more technological approach. There is no wrong way for learning, but have yet to come up with a way to make it more cohesive.

It's been going downhill with ("civilised") mankind since the agricultural revolution. It has allowed us to increase our population and consequently decrease natural diversity and a healthy environment. Agriculture sustains population growth. The ever increasing number of people is a huge problem. Sending food to those who are starving only exacerbates that problem.

Ah, the more I think about it the more I understand why I'm a misanthrope. People suck.

[Serena03]

What can I say, the human race a been quite a horny and hard-headed bunch.:brickwall

[LitNetIsGreat]

It's been going downhill with ("civilised") mankind since the agricultural revolution. It has allowed us to increase our population and consequently decrease natural diversity and a healthy environment. Agriculture sustains population growth. The ever increasing number of people is a huge problem. Sending food to those who are starving only exacerbates that problem.

Ah, the more I think about it the more I understand why I'm a misanthrope. People suck.

That’s an interesting thought and I agree to a degree, however there are still enough resources available to sustain the present population - with plenty to spare. The problem, perhaps, lies not in limited resources, but in how they are manufactured and distributed. If you look at the opulence and waste on one side, and the poor and starving on the other, it’s not hard to see that a healthy balance is possible, if not probable.

[Propter W.]

That’s an interesting thought and I agree to a degree, however there are still enough resources available to sustain the present population - with plenty to spare. The problem, perhaps, lies not in limited resources, but in how they are manufactured and distributed. If you look at the opulence and waste on one side, and the poor and starving on the other, it’s not hard to see that a healthy balance is possible, if not probable.


A healthy balance is not the answer to the problem of overpopulation, however.

[LitNetIsGreat]

A healthy balance is not the answer to the problem of overpopulation, however.

Maybe not, but the question is do we really have over-population if we have more than enough food and resources to go round?

[prendrelemick]

Hold on. I'm not talking about totally rejecting modern life and returning to the plow and cart; I'm talking about putting a little balance and common sense back into play. (Though, really I'm with Brian it is a lost cause, I figured that a long time ago, however...)

I've just had a salad and yogurt. Most of the ingredients came from out of the UK. Tomatoes and peppers from Holland, chillies from Kenya, cucumber from god knows where, yogurt produced in Germany, etc, etc, it seems impossible to get an apple that's "produced" in Britain - the things grow on bloomin' trees, 3 potatoes cost more than a pint of beer, etc, etc, it is all crazy. What's the harm in growing a few things and occasionally turning off the holy TV - to get out walking or cycling in the country?

Quality. For me that is king. Time to sit and eat and drink with friends. Enjoy the fine and simple things in life. That's all.

What we need is a healthy balance - a balance between the real world and the world that most people are stuck in - the world full of celebrity-reality-stars and facebook obsessed, mobile phone hugging lunatics, etc, etc...

Edit: sorry, kind of nothing to do much with the OP, though it triggered it off somewhat.

Sounds lovely.

I am reminded of a stastistic I read recently about classical Athens, that hive of new thought and learning, where free men could stroll along the the shady stoas discussing philosophy and social politics. To support each Citizen of Athens in that lifestyle, required the output of ten slaves.

I'm suspicious that any idealized life, involves hardship for others.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Sounds lovely.

I am reminded of a stastistic I read recently about classical Athens, that hive of new thought and learning, where free men could stroll along the the shady stoas discussing philosophy and social politics. To support each Citizen of Athens in that lifestyle, required the output of ten slaves.

I'm suspicious that any idealized life, involves hardship for others.

Oh you are being pessimistic!

"The only thing worth doing is what the world says is impossible" O.W.

As with any idealised perspective, the reality is always very different, however, again, I'm not talking about some vast social revolution, I'm talking about little things. Is it really so hard to turn the TV off and go for a walk? Is it really too much trouble to set the table and enjoy a family meal now and again? I don't think so.

By the same chords is it too much trouble to stick a little bit of veg at the bottom of the garden and produce a something, even if it is just a few tomatoes or herbs? (See the veg and herbs thread for further details.) Again, I don't think so.

I think technology is great, I really do - I use the internet every day and it the last five years alone I can say that it has completely and radically transformed teaching. However, there are problems with it too. Too many teens are addicted to facebook, x-boxes, reality TV - whatever it may be and it is unhealthy. A balance is needed.

Then we can think about transforming the world...

Edit: oh and as a farm guy, can you explain to me why 80% of the friut and veg available seems to come from outside of the UK? Is it really that cost effective to ship tomatoes 2000 miles instead of getting them from the UK, or better still growing a few of them yourself?

[LitNetIsGreat]

Well it seems that Channel Four is supporting the Neely crusade for better quality food this week, with yet another foody programme. Unbelievably this very programme actually included some of my comments above showing the production of Moroccan tomatoes and lamenting the good old English apple - as ever many of them are rejected because your typical arbitrary variation in size and colour - it's mad.

Programme's here:
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/food-what-goes-in-your-basket/4od#3122182

(Some of it you can skip.)

[prendrelemick]

Ok. The Co-op decides only to sell only English tomatoes. Customers who want tomatoes in March have to go to Asda. Co-op loses customers. Have you ever eaten a fresh tomato in March?

Neely, I wish you'd stop making me play Devil's advocate, I actually agree with you.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Yes, well of course that's going to happen because as a nation we don't eat by the seasons anymore, we've lost touch with all of that.

The thing is though that most people wouldn't even think about it. The really sad thing is that most people, it seems, have all but forgotten what fresh food is about, what it tastes like. As a nation we have become so lazy, and our palates so numbed by some of the bland food which regularly props up the supermarket shelves, that many don't give it a second thought. (Even in things like tea and coffee, you should attempt to taste the stuff they serve at work - I bring my own, free or not.)

Of course I'm not saying this is true of everybody, or true of every product in the supermarkets, but it is a growing trend nevertheless - tasteless food has in many circles just become the norm that we accept. So embedded are those bad habits of standardisation and the rule of the supermarkets over traditional outlets, that any sudden shift by a supermarket as you mentioned above, is bound to have that effect, unfortunately.

But our food revolution is a slow and uphill battle that we will win in the end, bit by bit some people will eventually start going back to common sense approaches, it's just going to take time.

What type of farming do you do? Is your main role in raising sheep or do you do other stuff as well? How are you finding it economically at the moment, is it tough going? I was speaking to an ex-cattle farmer today, (she now works with a different herd of animal in the schools) she loved it, but was squeezed out of it in the end, not just by the supermarkets but by various other factors. A real shame if you ask me. I can't bear the sacrifice of quality to the rule of standardisation in anything.

Anyway, I firmly intend to continue my stand and to support farmers markets, local markets and butchers and reject as much as possible inferior products. I only hope others do the same. I'll also grow a few things myself. It is a small stand but at the same time, I feel, it carries a big intention.

Neely is not for moving!

[altheskeptic]

I don't think I would be much use to a stone age man when it comes to survival. I would probably be a burden to him if he didn't eat me for supper.

I am trying to start a little hobby farm. I have a few goats (poor mans cows), a greenhouse, and a small garden plot. I make no money at it but it is enjoyable. Come spring I am going to get a few chickens.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I am trying to start a little hobby farm. I have a few goats (poor mans cows), a greenhouse, and a small garden plot. I make no money at it but it is enjoyable. Come spring I am going to get a few chickens.

Well that sounds fantastic to me, I think you have got is sorted my friend. I would like to have the space for some chickens especially, there's nothing like fresh eggs for breakfast! Good luck with it all.

[Sebas. Melmoth]

I firmly intend to continue my stand and to support farmers markets, local markets and butchers

Quite with you, dear, but remember this: in England's long history, imported foodstuffs have been a staple since the mid-19th C (First Industrial Revolution).

In fact, if government hadn't supported indigenous farmers (from the 1960s) all agriculture in England would have been lost. True fact.


Except of course for the brewing industry; I personally prefer Ruddels County...

[LitNetIsGreat]

Quite with you, dear, but remember this: in England's long history, imported foodstuffs have been a staple since the mid-19th C (First Industrial Revolution).

In fact, if government hadn't supported indigenous farmers (from the 1960s) all agriculture in England would have been lost. True fact.


Except of course for the brewing industry; I personally prefer Ruddels County...

Oh indeed, indeed. I'm not against foreign imports as such (see the Belgian beer thread for example) only inferior quality imports or inferior produce within the UK.

Mass production usually means inferior quality, like those force-fed, chemical pumped tomatoes grown in Morocco (which the locals refuse to eat) which is why turning to the local farm markets is a way to both ensure quality and common sense - i.e. get your veg from the farm down the road or from 1500 miles driven from another continent? Next year I'll get some via my own garden, surely another improvement?

There is a farm a few miles away from where I live, but two damn buses or a bike ride maybe?, which grows and sells its own produce - apparently the carrots and sausages are to die for! I'll have to get over there for example when I can - it's all about making the time and effort for it, but the end result has to be better than accepting tasteless foodstuffs from the supermarkets.

[altheskeptic]

Well that sounds fantastic to me, I think you have got is sorted my friend. I would like to have the space for some chickens especially, there's nothing like fresh eggs for breakfast! Good luck with it all.

Fresh eggs and fresh tomatoes. We just had a big salmonella outbreak here in the U.S. from eggs.

It seems every couple of months we have a new outbreak. It was spinach, then it was peanut butter, lettuce, tomatoes, and now eggs.

I am worried about the food industry in the U.S. Everything is pumped up with hormones and antibiotics. I hope I am not getting too political...but it looks like trouble brewing. :yikes:

[Propter W.]

Maybe not, but the question is do we really have over-population if we have more than enough food and resources to go round?

You're talking about mass production and imported produce in this thread. That's what population growth leads to. There are plenty of regions (plenty of cities) in the world that cannot survive on what they produce. They are dependent on imports of mass produced food. Many people struck by famine in Africa and Asia also depend on imported food. Ironically enough, some of these people who are starving are producing food for the West.

The more people on earth, the more food we'll need. We're slowly turning a very diverse planet into a human buffet - eliminating everything that might eat "our" food. By doing so, we are threatening the ecosystem that allows us to live. We're sustaining population growth artificially.

[LitNetIsGreat]

You're talking about mass production and imported produce in this thread. That's what population growth leads to. There are plenty of regions (plenty of cities) in the world that cannot survive on what they produce. They are dependent on imports of mass produced food. Many people struck by famine in Africa and Asia also depend on imported food. Ironically enough, some of these people who are starving are producing food for the West.

The more people on earth, the more food we'll need. We're slowly turning a very diverse planet into a human buffet - eliminating everything that might eat "our" food. By doing so, we are threatening the ecosystem that allows us to live. We're sustaining population growth artificially.

I guess that is my point (in bold). I'm not saying that things aren't pressed at the moment in the current work-up of things, but the potential for food and resource production is there, it is the way things get managed that seems to be the real issue here. However, these matters are a little beyond what I am mainly talking about.

My main interest in this thread (and others, Jamie Oliver etc, etc) does not lie in discussing major world food issues (for they are far heavier and graver for me) but in regards to things on a smaller scale. I'm talking about planting a few things here and there to supplement what you have to buy. Or I'm interested in avoiding mass produced supermarket food in favour of the local farm produce. I'm interested in buying from butchers and proper bakers, real bread - it is a sad fact that 20 butchers a week in the UK close down - in short I'm interested in quality over standardisation.

In regards to over-population, I'm not saying that there aren't problems with this currently, but as you have highlighted yourself, perhaps the problem, or at least part of the problem, lies not in over-population but in maintaining and managing the resources that we have better. This is of course a big issue and a big problem, with no easy answer, like all big issues and all big problems.

[OrphanPip]

Well, population growth in the West is almost entirely due to immigration from those countries. Westerners don't have replenishing birthrates, we rather have 1 or 2 child households, and we have a large number of aging baby boomers.

Europe has a lack of space, many countries being very much densely population. However, the US' problem doesn't seem to be a need to import food, but rather the large scale industrial agricultural production. The salmonella outbreak, for example, was caused by poor sanitary conditions in overcrowded poultry farms, where beaks are cut to prevent the chickens from eating each other in very tiny enclosures. They're also refed their feces to get the most out of the feed, which also has the unfortunate consequences of spreading bacteria, which in turn requires heavier use of antibiotics to control outbreaks within the farm. This is a problem with maximizing the profits of agrobusiness at the expense of the safety of the consumer. The problem here isn't overpopulation, it's greed and a lack of political will to stem the bad behavior of powerful political lobyist, like the agrobusiness conglomerates.

Do the supermarkets in Europe not tell you where the food comes from? Here all the food is labeled as from Canada, Quebec, or the USA. Occasionally we get tropical products from farther away, but during the winter almost everything is coming from the Southern USA. That short growing season would require us to live off of root vegetables exclusively in the winter without imports.

Edit: Although, I think Canada, USA, and Australia are the only developed countries that export more food than they import. (New Zealand is probably in there too)

[LitNetIsGreat]

Hi, yes the supermarkets have to tell you where the food comes from, people know where the food is coming from and what's in it, that's not the problem, the problem lies in people being so used to buying what's on the supermarket shelves instead of seeking better alternates from time to time. For example the local market in my town has fresh produce with a gathering of local farmers shops, butchers, fishmongers, a bakery etc and most of this stuff is of much higher quality and cheaper than what you find on most supermarket shelves. However, despite of this, they never seem very busy and are losing out to the supermarkets all the time - it just doesn't make much sense to me??

I agree with your points about maximising profits by the way.

[altheskeptic]

I don't like the abuse of antibiotics in the food chain. Everyone should know that bacteria become resistant to antibiotics. If you get infected with a resistant strain how will the medical profession treat you? What can they do?

I don't know how supermarkets work in other countries but here in the U.S. it is much easier to do all your shopping in one place than to "shop around". I can pick up my clothes, hardware, food, electronics,garden plants, and gasoline all at one place. And my television is always telling me how much money they are saving me.

Did I mention pet supplies and housewares?

Toys for the kids?

Greeting cards?

Party favors?

[Propter W.]

I guess that is my point (in bold). I'm not saying that things aren't pressed at the moment in the current work-up of things, but the potential for food and resource production is there, it is the way things get managed that seems to be the real issue here. However, these matters are a little beyond what I am mainly talking about.

My main interest in this thread (and others, Jamie Oliver etc, etc) does not lie in discussing major world food issues (for they are far heavier and graver for me) but in regards to things on a smaller scale. I'm talking about planting a few things here and there to supplement what you have to buy. Or I'm interested in avoiding mass produced supermarket food in favour of the local farm produce. I'm interested in buying from butchers and proper bakers, real bread - it is a sad fact that 20 butchers a week in the UK close down - in short I'm interested in quality over standardisation.

In regards to over-population, I'm not saying that there aren't problems with this currently, but as you have highlighted yourself, perhaps the problem, or at least part of the problem, lies not in over-population but in maintaining and managing the resources that we have better. This is of course a big issue and a big problem, with no easy answer, like all big issues and all big problems.

I agree with you. We grow a lot of our own vegetables, we have chickens, some for eggs and others for eating, and we also have sheep, some of which will be slaughtered. A friend of ours is raising a pig, which we will share. Some of us are lucky like that, the majority of people, however, cannot do this.

My point was that as we grow in numbers, our food supply needs to rise too. And agriculture on such a large scale is not sustainable.

Did you know that it takes thousands of litres of water just to produce one steak? Fresh water is becoming alarmingly scarce. There are people who have to walk miles to get a bucket of water. There are farmers in India who need to dig deeper and deeper wells every year in order to be able to irrigate their lands. Chinese and Indian people are starting to eat more and more meat and their populations are growing at very fast rates. Agriculture itself simply not sustainable.

You missed my point, I think. I don't think if we manage resources differently, the problem could be solved. I think we have overpopulation already. I think mankind is a plague. I think we are the problem and therefore we cannot come up with a solution because the solution we not be in our advantage. Unless, we start to realise that we are a part of nature and we stop trying to control it.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Nice post altheskeptic, I almost didn't see the irony until I connected it to the earlier points you made!!:blush:

I haven't got much time right now Proper, but I can see the point you are making. I understand that the good stuff you are doing; the planting and owning of your own food might not work for everybody, all of the time and to raise that up a level means that mass production becomes necessary in some places, especially in poorer situations. Maybe this is due to population to a degree, certainly.

However, where I think we disagree slightly is in the allocation of resources and perhaps as judging mankind. I don't think that I am as bleak in my asssessment of the race as you are, e.g. "mankind is a plague". I know where you are coming from, but I tend to hold a slightly higher opinion of the potential of mankind, I think, I don't maybe I'm just reading it differently?

I know that Asian communities are eating more meat and this is causing untold problems such as you point out - I didn't realise that so much water was needed for beef though, that's a good fact. However, for me the question of common-sense and balance comes into play (as always). I once heard that an area the size of the US has the potential to feed and clothe the world alone on current population. Put this together with huge problems with obesity and such issues in the west, contrast that with a lack of food for the world's worst off and, to me, you just have a crazy situation!

With this craziness in mind I get the impression that if you could take away 2 billion of the world's population in a click of your fingers you would still have a similar situation of imbalance that we have now.

The bottom line is that we are not going to go back to a world population of 100,000 (without some epic, epic disaster) so people are just going to have to live and work with what we've got. For me it's as simple as that.

[prendrelemick]

In answer to your question, which you put just before my computer went wrong. I farm in a small way, sheep and beef. I also have to work at another job as a fence erector. I don't mind that the farm doesnt pay a living wage - farming is a lifestyle thing anyway. Nor do I think supermarkets are all bad, I remember (just) the difference they made to my Mother's life. Shopping was a long hard time consuming slog in the old days.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Great. I can see how it could be seen as a lifestyle thing, though it is a shame that you can't make it pay more, as I said I know someone who was forced to pack it in because of lots of different factors - she misses it a real shame I think.

I'm not saying supermarkets are all bad by the way, for example our local one has fresh bread delivery, the other one an in-store bakery and some good things. However in the drive for greater profits it can often mean inferior mass-produced products and I'm not a fan of that at all.