To marry or not to marry!

[Scheherazade]

After reading about a research on stress and marriage, I am wondering if this is enough to advocate for marriage. :p

What are your opinions on marriage? Are you for or against it?



PS: I realise that the research talks about "being in a committed relationship" but I am mainly interested in legal marriage (yes, that piece of paper).


(The poll is anonymous.)

Being married has been associated with improving health but a new study suggests that having that long-term bond alters hormones in a way that reduces stress - but you don't need to buy a ring just yet; unmarried people in a committed relationship show the same reduced responses to stress, said Dario Maestripieri, Professor in Comparative Human Development at the University of Chicago and lead author of a new study in Stress.
http://www.science20.com/news_articles/married_people_have_less_stress_hormone_production

[ClaesGefvenberg]

What are your opinions on marriage? Are you for or against it?I have been married since 1992, so I'm obviously for it (or I would have done something about it by now). However, I have to say that there can be no hard and fast guidelines about this. We are all unique and rather complicated beings.

I am a wee bit dubious about the conclusions of the study, though: Maybe people with their hormones wired that certain way enters longterm bonds more often?

/Claes

[SleepyWitch]

I've been married for nearly a year and a half now and I'm generally speaking for marriage. But, as Claes said, you can't generalize. Personally speaking, I just like the security of knowing that my husband is just as committed to our relationship as me. Also, I don't like doing things by half and since we wanted to get married from the start, we thought we might just as well do it. On the other hand, I know people in long term relationships who don't feel any need to get married but that doesn't mean that they are any less committed.
However, it's important that people get married for the right reason. E.g. you shouldn't get married just because everybody else gets married or because you think it's 'romantic'.

[Sebas. Melmoth]

What are your opinions on marriage?

(Having been married for a quarter of a century) I can say this for sure:
for long-term survival, the partners must have a basic foundation--a concord of agreement--a shared worldview on which the relationship rests.

Even the most committed couples will have disagreements, disaffections, etc., but ultimately if they can fall back on an agreed foundation, the marriage can survive.

Otherwise, the statistics are what?--50% failure rate?

Once you make that commitment one's own personal integrity is on the line: if you're gonna say 'this isn't working; let's break up and go seek other partners', well, you may as well not marry in the first place.

Edit: the other important consideration is household economics. Financial mismanagement leads to broken marriages.

Simple household management: get a large spiral notebook for household accounts.
One page per month, data is meticulously entered: how much money goes out; how much comes in--rounded off to the nearest $ (or £). End of the month tally +/-.

Then, obviously over time monthly expenses must be adjusted to meet income.

My 2 cents.

[SleepyWitch]

(Having been married for a quarter of a century) I can say this for sure:
for long-term survival, the partners must have a basic foundation--a concord of agreement--a shared worldview on which the relationship rests.



I'll second that. You need to have a shared 'vision' of your future together and make sure you keep working towards your shared goals. And it helps if you have some hobbies and interests in common so that you can spend time with each other and talk about things you are interested in. If you just marry someone because you are attracted to them, chances are you'll get divorced after 3 years.

[Paulclem]

I'm all for it. It has been very good for me. I agree with the above posters. It's not something to enter into lightly - children are likley to be involved, but if you're sure, then it can provide stability and comfort in a challenging world.

[Scheherazade]

Have to admit that I am a little surprised with the response so far. Thought there would be a more cynical approach to marriage; having said that, I think so far mostly those who have been married replied (justification and all that? :p)

Maybe when the school is out and the younger generation hits the Forum, things might change.

(Sorry, Sleepy, but you are pratically one of us now! 29!!!!!)

[SleepyWitch]

(Sorry, Sleepy, but you are pratically one of us now! 29!!!!!)

hahah, don't worry, my mental age is 800 anyway :)

As for the health benefits of being married, when I feel sick I just sniff my hubby's pajama top and it does wonders for me :blush: It doesn't work for him though, probably that's because my clothes don't reek of manly hormones :D
I'm sure you're glad I shared this with you :D

[OrphanPip]

Have to admit that I am a little surprised with the response so far. Thought there would be a more cynical approach to marriage; having said that, I think so far mostly those who have been married replied (justification and all that? :p)

Maybe when the school is out and the younger generation hits the Forum, things might change.

(Sorry, Sleepy, but you are pratically one of us now! 29!!!!!)

I'll be happy to oblige Sche.

I don't particularly care for or against marriage, I'm sure it works great for some people, while it might not be for others. More often than not, marriages turn out to be mistakes that cost all parties involved a good deal of money and anguish, while occasionally they lead to lifelong security. I don't think marriage is a one size fits all sort of thing, some people just aren't the marrying kind.

Our societies insistence on marriage as an ideal, as the pinnacle of romantic relationships does more harm than good. It's probably what leads so many people to rush into bad marriages. Some would be better off with a life of moving between partners.

[Emil Miller]

hahah, don't worry, my mental age is 800 anyway :)

As for the health benefits of being married, when I feel sick I just sniff my hubby's pajama top and it does wonders for me :blush: It doesn't work for him though, probably that's because my clothes don't reek of manly hormones :

I had a girlfriend who used to say the same thing to me, even after I'd had a shower; what is it with you females?

[The Comedian]

One case for marriage are these two guys I know -- relatives -- one's in his early 60s the other in his mid 30s. They loved to travel, didn't want to be "tied down". Getting married would take away their freedom and all that.

They had fun and went to a lot of places. They have tons of photos of the places they've been and the things they've seen.

The 60 -something uncle is one of the saddest people I know. He still travels a lot, but he mopes about it. . . . .it's like he travels because he has to, because he's got nothing else to do or say or love.

[JuniperWoolf]

I don't understand why people bother getting married when you could just be together with the person that you love. If you're in love and living together, then why opt for a big expensive stressful festival to prove it? Plus, just the idea of "marriage" freaks people out. The images that come to mind when you picture a "married couple" usually aren't good. Even if these things are acting subconsciously, they’re present in your mind and could screw up your cohabitation. For me, there's too much stress and risk involved in the whole thing. I might change my mind though, so I opted for the "undecided" option.

[Paulclem]

I don't understand why people bother getting married when you could just be together with the person that you love. If you're in love and living together, then why opt for a big expensive stressful festival to prove it? Plus, just the idea of "marriage" freaks people out. The images that come to mind when you picture a "married couple" usually aren't good. Even if these things are acting subconsciously, they’re present in your mind and could screw up your cohabitation. For me, there's too much stress and risk involved in the whole thing. I might change my mind though, so I opted for the "undecided" option.

It doesn't need to be expensive or stressful. We went into the registry office on the Friday and booked it for the Monday. Sorted.

It all boils down to the right choice though. It's not something to rush into, but given time you're better able to assess marriageability. I think rushing in is not a good idea, and as you say, no-one has to get married. If people are comfortable and happy then no problem. It does add that bit more stability and commitment though which may ease any risky feelings.

[SleepyWitch]

I don't understand why people bother getting married when you could just be together with the person that you love. If you're in love and living together, then why opt for a big expensive stressful festival to prove it? Plus, just the idea of "marriage" freaks people out. The images that come to mind when you picture a "married couple" usually aren't good. Even if these things are acting subconsciously, they’re present in your mind and could screw up your cohabitation. For me, there's too much stress and risk involved in the whole thing. I might change my mind though, so I opted for the "undecided" option.


It doesn't need to be expensive or stressful. We went into the registry office on the Friday and booked it for the Monday. Sorted.

Yep, there is way too much hype about the wedding these days, but being married is not about the wedding day. Well, for most people today it is, but those are the people who've got it all wrong.
Anyway, we hardly spent any money. Just went to the registry office and got an appointment 2 weeks after. We put on smart clothes but no wedding dress etc.
Went to a restaurant with family and best friends later (all you can eat Mongolian grill/ Chinese buffet; but not a cheap one). Father-in-law and my dad volunteered to pay. A couple of months later we had a combined wedding and farewell party because we were going to England. Got a free venue in a youth club where I volunteered. It wasn't very glamorous, but it had chairs, tables, a kitchen, plates, glasses, cutlery, coffee a fridge, a hifi with speakers. So what more do you need? We asked everyone to prepare some food for a buffet (salads, cake, snacks, etc) and we bought the drinks. Father-in-law panicked that there wouldn't be enough to eat, brought 4 huge roasts from a butcher's. Sorted. The relatives gave us money so we paid for the drinks out of that money and had loads left. Everyone was happy because there was food and it was stress-free and you didn't have to show off and where allowed to sit where you want and arrive and go home when you want. I think we made a profit out of that wedding :)

Hehe exactly what images come to your mind when you picture a "married couple"?

[Emil Miller]

Hehe exactly what images come to your mind when you picture a "married couple"?


http://a.imageshack.us/img697/9525/american20gothic.jpg

[Lokasenna]

It's ultimately got to be a personal thing - if you view marriage in a positive light, then you're probably going to want to tie the knot at some point. If it doesn't bother you, then you can happily live with a partner without ever formalising things...

Personally, I'm all for marriage, but I don't think it is something that should be rushed into. Sleepywitch is quite correct: it's all about the wedding these days - some women just desperately want to feel like a princess for a day, and so rush things, spend a fortune on their wonderful white egotrip, then find a year down the line that they don't want to spend the rest of their lives with the hubby.

Some of the weddings I used to see at the hotel/restaurant where I worked last summer didn't do much for my opinion of humanity. This happened; every word is true:

One wedding happened with all the usual pomp and circumstance. I have to say that all the people involved seemed utterly unpleasent, so it is hard to have much sympathy. So anyway, the bride was storming around the place looking like a rather tyrannical ice-cream, demanding this, that and the other from the staff as if we were her personal slaves. She ordered me (a waiter) to clean one of the guest's shoes - while he was still wearing them! I had to get down on my hands and knees and polish the bloody things, and the only words I recieved in lieu of thanks was a warning not to get any polish on his trousers.

Anyway, the ceremony happened, to which I was obliged to go and therefore didn't; however, I was due to be a waiter at the reception, which is where things really went down the pan. Firstly, there was the entertainment that the wedding party brought with them - a 'comedian' whose act composed of, I kid you not, wandering around the room holding a baguette which he kept holding to his crotch and pretending to masturbate with, before leaping at various female guest and sticking it up their skirts while cackling. The audience found this hysterical, which should give you some indication of the level of culture that was to be found.

Anyway, things started to go bad when the groom, less than two hours after tying the knot, was found having a threesome in the toliets with the bride's sister and the bride's sister's best friend. This provoked something of a civil war amongst the guests: the bride's party were utterly aghast, while the groom's party all thought it was hilarious, and that he had 'done good.'

At this point, the bride and her sister are outside having a catfight that can be heard by the enitre hotel, and the groom has quietly slunk off (possibly with the best friend - I couldn't see where she had gone). Things are then complicated further when the father of the bride drops dead - the horrifying thing is that no one seemed to care! My manager was the one who phoned for an ambulance, and when they arrived it was we staff who stood watch as the corpse was carried away. The man's wife was upset, and went with the body, but everyone else either carried on partying or enjoying the entertainment provided by the bride.

I went home then, but when I came back next morning, I learnt from my manager that the bride had eventually decided to give the groom 'a second chance', though she was apparently still spitting poison at her sister. As far as I could tell, no one had yet given any concern to the passing of the father.

Is that a marriage that is likely to last?

[Sebas. Melmoth]

Of course now with the internet and databases, one can simply key in all parameters and get connected with someone who parallels those parameters.
Acutally that probably makes more sense than just meeting someone at random.
I mean, there are what? 7 billion people on Earth right now? How could one hope to randomly find the what? 'soul mate'?
(Plato relates in the Symposium the theory that we're all halves looking for our other half.)

Also ladies know this: most men aren't fully mature till their mid-30s!
So if you marry a youngster the chance of 'issues' is greater.

[The Comedian]

I don't understand why people bother getting married when you could just be together with the person that you love. If you're in love and living together, then why opt for a big expensive stressful festival to prove it? Plus, just the idea of "marriage" freaks people out. The images that come to mind when you picture a "married couple" usually aren't good. Even if these things are acting subconsciously, they’re present in your mind and could screw up your cohabitation. For me, there's too much stress and risk involved in the whole thing. I might change my mind though, so I opted for the "undecided" option.

It's a good point JW. And for some people, I'm sure this is a fine option for a sustained relationship. I have no problem with people choosing to live this way.

Like a lot of things in our lives, though, well, I should say "like a lot of things in my life" the best things, the most complicated and beautiful things are those to which I have committed myself by a bond greater than my word. And while love should be enough, for me there is something almost sublime about committing to "yes".

Marriage isn't for everyone. And I'm glad that we live in a society where people don't have to marry to progress through society (especially women). But those old traditions of ritual -- of two people making a public commitment to themselves and to their families and communities, however much scholars may date its power and effect to a superstitious past, has a lingering potency and meaning to the right people here and now that is very difficult to describe.

[SleepyWitch]

OMG, Lokasenna, this story is so sickening! I was about to suggest you write a story about it, but then you'd have to write about what the 'characters' were thinking and there'd just be lots of blanks in the text.:cryin:

[Paulclem]

Sounds like a wedding from hell Lokasenna. I reminds me of one I went to in Chickenley in Yorkshire. The best man and Groom wanted to go to a nightclub after the "do" and of course there was a fight - between the best man and Groom. It didn't last.

Some shouldn't -a least until they've grown up.

[The Atheist]

What are your opinions on marriage? Are you for or against it?

For it when the parties (i.e. the woman) sees a need to have the piece of paper.


I don't understand why people bother getting married when you could just be together with the person that you love.

Cultural conditioning.

I imagine the marriage industry has too much invested to let women see the exploitative side of it all.


This happened; every word is true:

That is a classic!

I guessed the bride would give him another chance though!

:smilielol5:

[JuniperWoolf]

This happened; every word is true:

That is one of the most amazing stories that I have ever heard. It's like a Frank Oz film.

[SleepyWitch]

Seeing as we've gone of on a tangent about weddings rather than marriage, anyway. Can I ask a question about proposing? How did those who are married propose/ get proposed to? Those who aren't married: how do you think proposing should work.
Over here (in England) they seem to do the 'American' thing, i.e. the man has to kneel down and present a diamond ring. Apparently the woman can't propose. In Germany, I don't think many people will kneel and it's probably less surprising for the woman to propose. To be honest, I find this kneeling business a bit pathetic. I don't think a man (or woman) should be made to kneel in front of their partner. If any man knelt for me, I'd kick him in the face. What's the whole idea behind it? Is it some assumption that the woman is a virgin and needs to be worshipped or is doing the man a great honour by giving up her chastity for him?

[Petrarch's Love]

Lokasenna--That is one of the most horrible stories I've ever heard! I wouldn't even believe all that happened at one event if I wasn't hearing it from you. The father of the bride actually died and they went on partying? :sick:

In terms of the question of the OP, I'm definitely for marriage when I've found the right man and we know we're both ready to commit to each other for life. As others have said, not something to enter lightly. I don't think there's anything wrong with cohabitation either, but I think there are a lot of benefits to being officially married, especially as you get older and when children come along. The point of the piece of paper to me is that it just makes everything easier legally and economically speaking and makes things crystal clear socially speaking. When I have found the person I love and want to spend all my days with I want to be able to tell people he's my husband and I'm his wife, because everyone understands that this means we've made a serious commitment. I want to be sure that there aren't going to be issues with my visiting him in the hospital or him making medical decisions for me if one of is sick or in an accident. I want everything we own to belong to both of us equally. One day when we are (hopefully old) and one of us dies, I don't want inheritance to be a legal mess while that person is still mourning.

I have had several friends who have been in close committed relationships without being married, some of whom are fairly clearly going to be together for ever. It's fine with me if that's their choice, but I have seen ways, large and small, that it doesn't always work in their favor not to just make the formal commitment. Introducing someone can be tricky when you can't just say husband and wife, but have to explain that this is not just "boyfriend" but "serious life partner boyfriend." More importantly, it's stories like my friends who have been together for 12 years and yet, when he was in the hospital after a serious accident, she wasn't allowed in to see him because the hospital restricted visits for that kind of case to family members and spouses. That rule actually makes some sense. How are the doctors and nurses supposed to differentiate between a "girlfriend" who has been in his life a few months and should in no way be involved in making major decisions about his care and a "girlfriend" who has been in his life for 12 years and is essentially a common-law wife?

I completely understand having issues about marriage in countries where it is still an institution giving the man control over the woman and so on, or even in some religions and regions of my own country in which socially speaking marriage pressures women into subservience. However, in a society like the one I've grown up in in the US where it is legally and (usually) socially considered an equal partnership, I guess I don't quite understand the enormous emotional responsibility people assign to the act of being formally married either for good or for bad. Getting married is neither going to fix or destroy a relationship. A relationship with a lot of problems isn't going to magically be fixed by a ceremony (small or large) and a piece of paper, and a solid relationship filled with love isn't going to start deteriorating because you've made that already good commitment formal. If you've had three kids and twenty years together it's going to be just as devastating if you break up after living together for that time as it would be to have a divorce (and legally the former will be a lot messier). I imagine you have exactly the same chances of becoming old and boring like the people in the Grant Wood painting whether you tie the knot or you don't. It's not as though marriage itself is going to change you into the image of anything in particular. It's the years of living together, growing older, confronting problems together that are going to either bond a couple together or drive them apart. It's the kind of commitment you make to one another and the way you stick together in good and bad times that is the big thing. The piece of paper is just going to make it formal so that society also recognizes the commitment you've made together and you have a clear way of signifying to everyone what you mean to each other. I don't quite see why, if you've already done the hard work of finding the person you love, of establishing that you have a serious life long commitment to each other, possibly of either having or planning to have children together, you wouldn't just go ahead and sign off on making that a formal commitment? Why would that be a scary thing if your relationship is truly solid?

It may be that this depends a lot on each person's experience of marriage and relationships in their families and their own personal lives. I have been blessed to see a truly beautiful marriage between my two parents, which may be one reason I don't see it as a scary thing. Perhaps it also depends on how marriage was defined in your social group and in your family. As I said above, I can certainly see that I might have a different opinion of marriage if I thought that step meant that my husband was now the single head of the household over me or that it was legally an unequal partnership in some way.

[dafydd manton]

SleepyWitch, you're not going to believe this, but I proposed to my wife over the phone! We barely knew each other, although be both knew a lot about each other, and we both knew it was right. I actually said "Well, I suppose we'd better get married, then", although I must say, not for the reasons that many will think - we were both in our very late forties. Fortunately, Ann has a very similar, loony sense of humour, and said something on the lines of"Oh, go on, then". Ten years ago, and we both take our wedding vows very, very seriously, which is a geat protection for both of us, but also, those around know we do, so nobody ever oversteps any marks. As you might guess, there's never a laugh very far away in our house, which is called, in Welsh, "Ty Ffol" - the Mad House.

[SleepyWitch]

Introducing someone can be tricky when you can't just say husband and wife, but have to explain that this is not just "boyfriend" but "serious life partner boyfriend."

I love it when people say "partner" to mean "serious life partner boyfriend" and it sounds as if the person was gay.

Dafydd, our story is romantic by comparison to yours :)
We were visiting my sister-in-law and her boyfriend and went to a park. There was a wedding going on in the park and my husband blurted out: "When we get married there won't be any church stuff, but that should be OK because you're an atheist anyway." Whereupon he stood under a tree to be ashamed of himself and dangle his arms. At this point we'd been together for about a month, although we'd been friends for one or two years.
Another time, we went to a cocktail bar and came home slightly less than sober. We both had to sleep in my very narrow bed and lay there on our backs like drunken old geezers. Me: "Will you marry me?" - Husband: "Yeah...SNORE SNORE." Third time: my health insurance was running out and I could get free health insurance if we got married. Husband: "Maybe we should get married, we'd save 200 Euros." - Me: "Yeah, might as well."
edit to add: We still propose to each other all the time, although we've been married for over a year now.

[dafydd manton]

That's brilliant! Incidentally we met on February 15th, and married June 2nd that same year. We spent next to nothing on the wedding, which was great. One friend said "I''ll sort out the cars", another said "I'll sort out the flowers, as a prezzie", another did the whole reception, catering the lot, as a present, and so on. It was all very quietly done, but it was a great day, and Ann's eldest son and his wife paid for the wedding night. (I should explain that Ann was a widow for 22 years.)

We still have a laugh about it. The wedding talk, done by a good friend, was based around "sharing your last Rolo!"

[SleepyWitch]

That's brilliant! Incidentally we met on February 15th, and married June 2nd that same year.

hehe, I suppose at your age you can afford to be foolish ;) *joking*

[dafydd manton]

No, at my age, there's always a risk of something falling off!

[Delta40]

I have wondered all my long life what the man I am going to marry is doing right now.....in the meantime, Bellamy, Dougall and Spencer keep me company at night

[dafydd manton]

Teddy Bears? There was a survey published in UK only this week that maintaind that 33% of adults in this country still sleep with a Teddy bear. Personally, I never, ever had one......(sob!). I did. however, have what we then called a Golliwog, and we never gave racism a thought! But no bear.

[Emil Miller]

Generally I think marriage is a good thing but only if you find the right person.
How do you know if you've done so? You just know, and if you don't marry that person, anyone else will be a compromise.

[Paulclem]

One of our friends had decided to propose to his girlfriend and was looking into hiring a horse so that he could dress up as a knight and ride up to her in the street and propose - the silly fool.

Anyway, despite his enquiries - and them finding out he'd never ridden a white charger or anything but perhaps a Blackpool donkey - he settled on surprising her in a nightclub dressed up as a Knight - getting the DJ to announce it and go down on one knee.

She was expecting a Knight-o-Gram for someone whose birthday it was - and so was unsuspectig when he approached her. She accepted, though highly embarrased. My brother met his future wife on the same night. It was highly amusing for the in - the - know - observer.

[Emil Miller]

Teddy Bears? There was a survey published in UK only this week that maintaind that 33% of adults in this country still sleep with a Teddy bear. Personally, I never, ever had one......(sob!). I did. however, have what we then called a Golliwog, and we never gave racism a thought! But no bear.

When I was young lad, 33% of girls in England slept with a teddy boy. I don't recall having a Teddy Bear but I too had a Golliwog.

[dafydd manton]

I'd probably get arrested these days, but mine was named after a Blyton character, that being "Wogger". I cans till remember him after all these years. My Mum made a sort of repica of him when by kids were very young, and my youngest daughter, now 32, still has him, in fulNew Orleans jazz musician kit! Our next-door neighbours fell in love with him, so Mum made them one as well. He was Barbadian, she was Jamaican!

[Emil Miller]

I'd probably get arrested these days, but mine was named after a Blyton character, that being "Wogger". I cans till remember him after all these years. My Mum made a sort of repica of him when by kids were very young, and my youngest daughter, now 32, still has him, in fulNew Orleans jazz musician kit! Our next-door neighbours fell in love with him, so Mum made them one as well. He was Barbadian, she was Jamaican!

You have a very good memory. I don't remember what I called mine but, to save embarrassment to any 'pink' ears that may be listening, I shall say that it would be a somewhat different name today in the light of personal experience.

[dafydd manton]

Nae doot, Jimmy! It's a bit silly, I know, but I still remember it with a degree of fondness! How daft is that!

[Virgil]

Been married 19+ years. Unless you can't find the right partner, it's the only real arrangements for adults. Living together is for kids. Grow up and make a commitment. That's my opinion. I don't particularly care argue.

[Emil Miller]

Nae doot, Jimmy! It's a bit silly, I know, but I still remember it with a degree of fondness! How daft is that!

I still remember mine with a degree of fondness, but only as a doll.

[Sebas. Melmoth]

Living together is for kids. Grow up and make a commitment.

I agree: 'living together' always leaves the option for a quick way out.
Making a commitment and keeping one's word (especially when it's difficult) shows character.

Besides, (for adults) there are legal questions (property, etc.) which are settled by marriage; without that legal bond things are pretty dicey.

[Lokasenna]

Lokasenna--That is one of the most horrible stories I've ever heard! I wouldn't even believe all that happened at one event if I wasn't hearing it from you. The father of the bride actually died and they went on partying? :sick:


Yep.

It was horrifying, but also in a sense irresistable. You couldn't stop watching, and you were constantly wondering what level they would sink to next. It was past 1 AM before I left, knowing that I had to be back in four and a half hours for the breakfast shift, and yet is a state of morbid curiosity I wanted to stay.

But what kind of self-respecting woman would forgive her odious husband for cheating on her at their own wedding? With her own sister? And apparently utterly ignore the death of her father? It makes me shudder...

[Sebas. Melmoth]

What kind of [odious] woman would "forgive" her odious husband for cheating on her at their wedding? With her own [odious] sister? And apparently utterly ignore the death of her [odious] father?

This is the natural state of fallen humankind (especially in the Nietzschean social-Darwinist neoprimitivistic hypercapitalistic world of 2010).

An human being without enlightenment (or one who rejects the light) will do absolutely a n y t h i n g.

This is why the Mosaic Law makes a distinction between 'clean' and 'unclean'.

Humankind is so uncouth that we must begin there, with the basic distinction between 'clean' and 'unclean'.

[muhsin]

Hey,

I subscribe to 3rd category.

Shall say more when I get back, God's willing.

[dafydd manton]

Been married 19+ years. Unless you can't find the right partner, it's the only real arrangements for adults. Living together is for kids. Grow up and make a commitment. That's my opinion. I don't particularly care argue.

No argument from me, Virgil. With you all the way. (That way, we get half the Flak each!)

[LitNetIsGreat]

Lokasenna's story's a classic and a sad commentary on the nastiness of some people today, unfortunately.

I agree with a lot of points raised. Certainly it seems that there is too much focus on the wedding and not the marriage. I turn when I read of all these £10,000 weddings, OK if you have got money to burn I suppose, but if you are a normal, hard working person it seems crazy to me.

I know someone who, in order to pay for her wedding actually sold the family house and bought a smaller place instead, sold one of the cars and borrowed heavily from parents. Sure they got married in a stately home, a bit flash affair, but for me that one day of luxury is not worth it. The person in question is now in debt?!

I think that there are some personalities that are suited to marriage and some that aren't, (though people change over time obviously) simple as that really. I've been married for about eleven years and it has done great things for Mrs Neely, she's highly pleased with the arrangement - who can blame her? :D

[dafydd manton]

Please tell Mrs. Neely from us what a lucky girl she is. I tell Mrs M the same thing every day - one day, she'll start to believe it!

[LitNetIsGreat]

Will do, will do. I tell her such things too sometimes and she just give me a look I can't work out?:toetap05:

[SleepyWitch]

I turn when I read of all these £10,000 weddings, OK if you have got money to burn I suppose, but if you are a normal, hard working person it seems crazy to me.



I read an article in the Guardian that said the average cost of a wedding in the UK is £20,000 :eek2: Granted, there are quite a few millionaires etc. around so that raises the average. But even if you're loaded, how much expensive stuff can you cram into one party? 20,000 is enough for a couple to live on for a year!

[dafydd manton]

In our case, two years! Does that make our marriage more or less successful?

[The Atheist]

But what kind of self-respecting woman would forgive her odious husband for cheating on her at their own wedding? With her own sister? And apparently utterly ignore the death of her father? It makes me shudder...

Probably looking for a spot on Jeremy Kyle - it sounds like one made for him.


I read an article in the Guardian that said the average cost of a wedding in the UK is £20,000...

That was the average for Guardian readers.

;)

[dafydd manton]

No, that would have mentioned woddings amongst Guadrian redress, being 20,000 squid.

[Virgil]

No argument from me, Virgil. With you all the way. (That way, we get half the Flak each!)

Thanks. :)


I read an article in the Guardian that said the average cost of a wedding in the UK is £20,000
That's probably what it is in the New York City area. The rest of the US is certainly more modest, actually much more modest in most places. Something about the northeast where people throw everything they have into the wedding. It's not prudent frankly. Have a modest wedding and save your money for a down payment on a house.

[LMK]

I don't think a person should marry because they think it will make them a healthier, less stressful life. There should be two people involved and those two people should consider many things before getting that piece of paper.

Personally, I think it should be made more difficult to get that paper to begin with, then there might be less court involvement to many.

[SleepyWitch]

Personally, I think it should be made more difficult to get that paper to begin with, then there might be less court involvement to many.

Good idea LMK, except that most governments won't like that. They like to portray 'the family' as the 'nucleus of society' or something, so they can pass on the responsibility for looking after each other to families and save a lot of public funds this way.

[Scheherazade]

Loka> That is an amazing story!
I don't think a man (or woman) should be made to kneel in front of their partner. Agreed. I find the whole idea of one person proposing to the other rather superficial.

I think it is safe to assume that any two people who are at the stage of considering marriage have been involved in a steady relationship for a while (at least in most cases in the West). Given this fact, why it is required that one should propose and other agree or disagree, I simply cannot understand. These two people might be together for years and maybe even living together, making all sort of joint decisions but when it comes to marriage, all this is forgotten.

What I find even more superficial is that so many women who consider themselves open-minded and feminists glow with pride when they share their stories of being proposed to.
It may be that this depends a lot on each person's experience of marriage and relationships in their families and their own personal lives. I have been blessed to see a truly beautiful marriage between my two parents, which may be one reason I don't see it as a scary thing. Perhaps it also depends on how marriage was defined in your social group and in your family.I very much agree with you, PL. I think a lot depends on how we have come to see marriage and relationships. Those who come from broken homes or grow up experiencing unhappiness in a family home might feel that there isn't much to be gained from entering into a contract such as marriage.
As I said above, I can certainly see that I might have a different opinion of marriage if I thought that step meant that my husband was now the single head of the household over me or that it was legally an unequal partnership in some way.This is a very interesting point. We are all products of our own cultures (social and religious) and, I believe, when we look at it as an outsider with different cultural values and expectations, it does not sound like a desirable arrangement to us. However, if someone were brought up in the kind of social atmosphere as you mentioned, they would be less likely to mind the scenario you described as it would be the acceptable social norm for them.

[Sebas. Melmoth]

Governments like to portray 'the family' as the 'nucleus of society' or something, so they can pass on the responsibility for looking after each other to families and save a lot of public funds this way.


I totally agree that the pluto-technocratic oligarchs who've stolen peoples' governments love to encourage donations and non-paid 'service' in lieu of fulfilling social obligations, for it's more money in their gold-lined pockets.

However, there is one historical point I'd like to emphasize.

The concept of family (familia) in ancient Rome was the essential cell and building block of Roman society and that which gave it such strength and enduring power.

This concept was so great that other peoples discerned its importance and significance, indeed coöpting the very word familia itself (in German, for example).

Something to consider as Rome lasted 1,000 years, and no other nation lasted so long by far.

[SleepyWitch]

What I find even more superficial is that so many women who consider themselves open-minded and feminists glow with pride when they share their stories of being proposed to.
:puke: I know what you mean. My ex-mentor on the teacher training programme was (and still is) like this. She's head of German at that school. I wouldn't call her a feminist, but she's a reasonably intelligent woman, bosses her bf around quite a bit and at 33 is past the girly age. When her bf proposed to her, she posted the pics of the engagement ring on facebook, showed it to everyone (not everyone, but any female person she could grab hold of) in the staff room and generally blushed a lot. She was terribly excited about it and was happy that it was an engagement ring that came with a date for the wedding. (Coincidentally, they will marry next year after 1 1/2 years of planning the wedding.). This is ridiculous, why should an intelligent, half-way goodlooking, nice and educated woman be grateful when her bf can finally be bothered to propose? Plus, it's not something I'd share with random people at work. I mean, she's known them for a long time and some of them are her friends, but still.... Even my closest girl friends and me are a lot more level-headed about these things and wouldn't even gush about it in a more private situation than in the middle of the staff room.

[dafydd manton]

SleepyWitch, you're a wonderful cynic. It does present a rather nauseating spectacle, doesn't it?

Do you know what always irritated me - wedding present lists. "We would like you to buy us the following". I dislike them so much, we made one, with tear-out pages, so that if you were going to buy that object nobody else would. We put a Ferrari Testarossa, Chatsworth House, the Mona Lisa, Point Lynas Lighthouse, and nobody bought us a single one of them. As a joke we put in a Packet of Maltesers. Got that one! Bah Humbug, say I!

[Scheherazade]

:puke: I know what you mean.Of course, you realise that our strong dislike of this stems from the fact that we do not have any fairy tale proposal stories of our own to share...

:D

[SleepyWitch]

Of course, you realise that our strong dislike of this stems from the fact that we do not have any fairy tale proposal stories of our own to share...

:D

Of course. We're just jealous.
I must admit, I was disappointed not to see the hubby in a white wedding dress :D

[Lokasenna]

Do you know what always irritated me - wedding present lists. "We would like you to buy us the following". I dislike them so much, we made one, with tear-out pages, so that if you were going to buy that object nobody else would.

Horrible bloody things!

If (and I mean if) I get someone something for their wedding, it will be a gift that comes from the heart. I'm not going to buy a washing machine because you asked for one - it strikes me as so mercenary.

And it is rather insulting to watch someone blow £20,000 in an orgy of egoism, on horse-drawn carriages, diamond tiaras, a stately home, cases of white doves, half the flowers in Holland, and enough helium ballons to raise the Hindenburg, and then to be expected to funish their house for them.

If and when I get married, it will be a low-key, cozy affair, and the money we save on all the pomp and circumstance will go toward making a sizeable dent in the mortgage, so that the missus and I can start our married life with reduced financial worries.

[dafydd manton]

Wise man. I think the most expensive item for our wedding was Ann's dress - and that wasn't even in 3 figures - 10 years ago. We felt the same way, yet we had a great day, everybody else seemed to enjoy it, and it was, as you say, cosy.

[Paulclem]

If and when I get married, it will be a low-key, cozy affair, and the money we save on all the pomp and circumstance will go toward making a sizeable dent in the mortgage, so that the missus and I can start our married life with reduced financial worries.

Sounds sensible - trhough there will be input from A.N.Other who may disagree. You know - The best laid plans and all that...

:biggrin5:

[Helga]

I have always found marriage unnecessary, like some of you have said before, if you are together and in love why get married? I hate weddings, the party and the ceremony. but I can tell you that IF I ever get married I would do it in Vegas at the star trek chapel. It is probably very expensive but a lot more fun... ;)

I have always thought the song 'let's get married' by the Proclaimers is the most romantic way to propose, I think I would say yes if I was asked that way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5y_G73RmRk


oh and the wedding... my dream.
http://www.las-vegas-weddings.co.uk/chapels/star-trek-wedding-chapel/chapel.aspx?item=46

[Sebas. Melmoth]

IF I ever get married I would do it in Vegas

Or, you could simply find a retired judge.
(Usually a list of such is available from the county office which issues marriage licenses.)

[JuniperWoolf]

In my town you can just go to town office and fill out a form. Wedding completed.

[OrphanPip]

Ya, if I ever got married it would be by a civil servant, for obvious reasons.

[Paulclem]

When I was a young chappie, like many young people, I thought I'd never get married, couldn't see the point of it, why not live together, who needs ceremony, who needs permission etc etc.

I thought this throughout my younger years, but I do remember, when I was about 18, attending my mate's wedding. (He was unusual in our group as very few of us got married until our later 20's/ 30's). I just got the strong feeling that what he was doing was serious - a serious enterprise which could affect himself and lots of others - family - for good or ill. I decided then - though I had absolutely no plans for marriage myself - to take it very seriously myself if it ever came to pass. It has stood me in good stead.

[kasie]

I'm with you all the way there, Paul - the Church regards marriage as a sacrament and, if I remember correctly, the Book of Common Prayer somewhere defines a sacrament as 'an outward and visible sign of an inward, invisible grace'. To me, a wedding is an outward sign to everybody concerned that the two people involved are undertaking a serious attempt at a relationship, 'From this day forth, for better, for worse' etc. You mentioned in an earlier post the feeling of security after your marriage - I felt that too: it wasn't complacency, a feeling that nothing could go wrong now, that we need no longer make any effort, it was the sense that from now on, neither of us would be alone, no matter what Life, the Universe and Everything threw at us. Maybe that happens in a relationship that has not been publicly declared as a union, I don't know, I never tried it, I just know that the man who proposed to me (well, actually he didn't, Scher, he just told me he was making me a ring for Christmas, it was an engagement ring, was that all right? :smile5: ) equally wanted that security and wanted to carry on building our relationship on a solid foundation.

[Sebas. Melmoth]

Oh--here's a question: what about the (Western) 'tradition' of name change for the ladies?

In the far East, women keep their own name and the children get the father's name.

(My spouse kept her own name, and I've always considered this sensible.)

[OrphanPip]

Women aren't allowed to take the man's name in Quebec, it's to make record keeping easier, you also have the option to give children either the mother or father's last name or a hyphenated name.

[hoope]

i chose :
All for it but I am still waiting for the right person.
:)

I still believe that if there is no Mr.Right ... i won't marry !
And frankly speaking its hard to find him. .. so i am more into making my career and working on my project.. rather then thinking about marriage !

[Emil Miller]

i chose :
All for it but I am still waiting for the right person.
:)

I still believe that if there is no Mr.Right ... i won't marry !
And frankly speaking its hard to find him. .. so i am more into making my career and working on my project.. rather then thinking about marriage !

Hi Hoope, you're right about Mr. Right, but when he comes along, as I'm sure he will, he will have the best of the bargain by far.

[Paulclem]

Women aren't allowed to take the man's name in Quebec, it's to make record keeping easier, you also have the option to give children either the mother or father's last name or a hyphenated name.

Sounds like a fair idea.Mrs paulclem didn't mind, and it was never an issue. i did feel a bit guity though.

The only problem with hyphenations is where does it stop? Perhaps a system of abbreviations a few generations down the line.

[OrphanPip]

Sounds like a fair idea.Mrs paulclem didn't mind, and it was never an issue. i did feel a bit guity though.

The only problem with hyphenations is where does it stop? Perhaps a system of abbreviations a few generations down the line.

I think the law now is that the child of two people with hyphenated names can be given one of the four last names, or two of them hyphenated (i.e. one from each).

[Paulclem]

I think the law now is that the child of two people with hyphenated names can be given one of the four last names, or two of them hyphenated (i.e. one from each).

Sorted. What was that about Canada being the sanest country?

[OrphanPip]

Sorted. What was that about Canada being the sanest country?

We have our own brand of crazy though.

Plus, that's only Quebec, which operates under French Civil Law, the rest of Canada operates under British Common Law.

[Paulclem]

We have our own brand of crazy though.



I see. I suppose every country's got their own brand of it.

[Helga]

we don't have last names in the same sense here on the ice as most of you are used to. my last name is my dads first name. like if my dads name was Jon I would be Helga Jonsdaughter (jónsdóttir in icelandic).

[hoope]

Hi Hoope, you're right about Mr. Right, but when he comes along, as I'm sure he will, he will have the best of the bargain by far.

Yea i guess if i really find him.. I am ready to let go ( maybe negiotiate ) many thing :blush5:


Women aren't allowed to take the man's name in Quebec, it's to make record keeping easier, you also have the option to give children either the mother or father's last name or a hyphenated name.

Here in the east .. as some members added ... Women don't change their names after marriage.. They see it as carrying your family name is a source of proud .. and one shouldn't adop another name other than hers.

[Nightshade]

I have actually been thinking about weddings and marriage quite a bit recently so nice to log on ( after all this time) and finally get a chance to vocalise.

I am for marriage in my case ( but addmitedly only for religious reasons) I don't see how nowadays being married and being in a mature commited relationship really differ. A piece of paper doesn't stop your spouse from cheating on you ( if statistics are to be believed) doesnt keep them from breaking up with you because divorce rates are at an all time high. And I don't see how you can be in a real commited relationship and not expect the partership you would expect in a marriage, so differenciating between the two seems a bit pointless.

I have sat through a lot of lectures on marraige this year from various people, ranging from men are naturallly pigs, marry one for sure and be happy but never ever trust one out of your sight. to you need to loose weight if you ever want to get a husband. To marrying for love is the worst reason to marry of them all. Agood marriage is one you go into with you eyes open and a proper commitment to making it work. Both people need to work at it and want to make it work for it to suceed and so on and so forth.

While the advice has been doubtless good none of it has changed my opion that marraige is freaky scary thing and I am in no way ready to get married anytime soon.


Seeing as we've gone of on a tangent about weddings rather than marriage, anyway. Can I ask a question about proposing? How did those who are married propose/ get proposed to? Those who aren't married: how do you think proposing should work.
Over here (in England) they seem to do the 'American' thing, i.e. the man has to kneel down and present a diamond ring. Apparently the woman can't propose.
I am not at all for the whole kneeling thing for one thing it kills the whole equality thing fair dead even before the marraige has begun. But I have to say I would kind of like a proper formal Egyptian proposal.
Basically everyone already knows what is going to happen before it happens ( and in all likleyhood bride and groom and even family are all already agreed.) but Groom and his parents turn up usually with a present and sit down with the Bride and her parents. And father of groom formaly asks father of Bride about alliance of families etc. It can also work the opposite way its not unknown for the brides family to propse to the groom, but I think that is usually in the cases where girl fancies someone and can't get a straight answer out of him.
Then there are all the moeny details, but the reason I like the idea of this kind of proposal is that from the very begining you have a whole massive support system, and you don't end up with the hiccup of inlaws not approving of you or hating your guts or attempting to turn your children agInst you ( seen this happen) If they didnt agree with the marriage or approve they wouldn't turn up or they let their objectios be known there and then.
But obviously I am unlikley to to have that kind of proposal because my mum dad and I all live in different continents, let alone countries.


Oh--here's a question: what about the (Western) 'tradition' of name change for the ladies?

In the far East, women keep their own name and the children get the father's name.

(My spouse kept her own name, and I've always considered this sensible.)

Not only in the far east , Muslims have the same rule no name changes.

[Sebas. Melmoth]

Dear People:

Let's get one thing straight: the 'kneeling thing' is absurd.

One only kneels before the The Deity (full stop, is that clear?).

[faithosaurus]

I'm really not one to believe in marriage.

I mean, what if you decide you don't want to be with that person any longer? I see my parents' marriage and cringe at how much they don't like each other, and perhaps this is why I think this way.

I guess for some people it can work, but I see it as a minority, especially when people get married because of having the title or to "fix" things in their relationship.

I have commitment problems to begin with to where I'm uncomfortable being in a actual deep relationship, so that probably has something to do with it too.

It seems that every relationship I see around me the people are just not happy, and it alters my thoughts into wondering if love is real at all.

[LitNetIsGreat]

God, looking back it is hard to believe that a wild bohemian like me ending up getting married! What happened?

[Emil Miller]

[QUOTE=SleepyWitch;941441] Over here (in England) they seem to do the 'American' thing, i.e. the man has to kneel down and present a diamond ring. Apparently the woman can't propose. QUOTE]

I doubt if anybody in England has knelt, whilst proposing, for the last hundred years and women do propose, it's just that they go about it in a roundabout way.

[Buh4Bee]

Dear People:

Let's get one thing straight: the 'kneeling thing' is absurd.

One only kneels before the The Deity (full stop, is that clear?).

That's ridiculous. A man kneels because he is showing respect for his beloved.

[Scheherazade]

That's ridiculous. A man kneels because he is showing respect for his beloved.In that case, the wife should kneel in front her husband all the time...

When she brings him his coffee, serves his meal, answers his questions, massaging his feet... Guess she will have to anyway when she performs that last task.

[DocHeart]

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt and the mug.

I've been divorced for 10 years now, and throughout this time I was determined to live the rest of my life as a single guy. However, with the onset of age, I have softened my stance a bit. It has now become: IF I meet a woman who totally sweeps me off my feet (difficult), IF she is someone who seems to know what it means to be a wife and prospectively a mother (very difficult), and IF she seems like she could put up with all of my own issues (extremely difficult), then I MIGHT consider having another go.

I guess that puts me in the "would try again with the right person" category. But really, don't bet any money on it ever happening :)

[prendrelemick]

Getting married was right for me. It feels right, we are two halves of a whole. Individuals but together in parnership. She is the person I trust the most, and depend on the most, And that works both ways.

In the first years, the comprimises of always having to think of someone else (or responsibilities, I suppose) were hard to take. But I think the fact that we were properly formally married helped us stick at it and make the necessary adjustments.


God, looking back it is hard to believe that a wild bohemian like me ending up getting married! What happened?

:lol::lol: I bet you chased your wife until finally she caught you!

[LitNetIsGreat]

Ha, possibly, I can't remember I have burried all that in some dark corner of my mind...

I had this dream last night that I was besotted with lovely young woman. She was only 17/18, dark hair, beautiful, intelligent everyone was talking about her it seems. I bought her a few drinks and we talked and laughed a little. I was hooked, really hooked.

I then woke up and realised it all was a dream and that this woman doesn't exist (or does somewhere I don't know?). I tried to get back to sleep but it wasn't happening.

I guess this is life for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA2hk_CIZeo

So now I am sat on the sofa depressed, listening to the above over and over again, reading a little. I'm a true basket case.

[Buh4Bee]

In that case, the wife should kneel in front her husband all the time...

When she brings him his coffee, serves his meal, answers his questions, massaging his feet... Guess she will have to anyway when she performs that last task.

I see your point, but I was talking specifically about becoming engaged to someone.

I'm not making an argument against women's liberation. I am talking about more specifically the "sacred" act of making a life long commitment to someone. If the man is asking, he shows respect and honor for his wife to be by kneeling before her. I also say that if a woman wants to ask, she should do the same.

[Emil Miller]

I had this dream last night that I was besotted with lovely young woman. She was only 17/18, dark hair, beautiful, intelligent everyone was talking about her it seems. I bought her a few drinks and we talked and laughed a little. I was hooked, really hooked.

Yep, you, me and about a trillion other men at some time or another but there's nothing to be done about it. At least you are listening to some real music, something that's been practically non-existent since 1963.
Which happily leads me to my favourite dream in which all the electric guitars in the world have been consigned a scrap heap about the size of mount Everest and liberally doused in petrol, and I have been chosen from a panel of music lovers to light the fuse conveniently set at a safe distance from the beautiful conflagration.

[LitNetIsGreat]

You're right, there's nothing to be done about it, but at least there is some form of comfort in that. It does you good to share the suffering (this is what women do - best to live on a deserted island I think).

Yes coming to be hooked on some good music via Woody Allen. So you would say that some good has come of watching Woody's films I suppose.

[Emil Miller]

Yes coming to be hooked on some good music via Woody Allen. So you would say that some good has come of watching Woody's films I suppose.

Well if you got to like Rhapsody in Blue and Harry James with Helen Forrest through his films, he must be doing something right. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a particular fan of this kind of music but it's nice to hear people who can play a musical instrument, as opposed to strumming an electric guitar, and who actually sing a recognisable melody in tune. Here's another Helen Forrest number with Harry James's alter ego Artie Shaw on clarinet.
It's also interesting to read the comments about the video.


http://youtu.be/YsditGy9jd8

[LitNetIsGreat]

Yes well his films are crammed full of little musical goodies. He never uses score pieces or very, very rarely, most of the music used comes from his own vast personal collection, mostly jazz and classical which are often wound up around particular characters or themes within the story.

Watched Hannah and Her Sisters again, in a rare afternoon film viewing for me, made me feel somewhat normal again, very therapeutic and one of his very best.

[qimissung]

Well, as you seem to spend all your time playing tennis and drinking wine, Neely, it's no wonder she's annoyed. :D :leaving:

[LitNetIsGreat]

Well, as you seem to spend all your time playing tennis and drinking wine, Neely, it's no wonder she's annoyed. :D :leaving:

:lol: Ha, I try to do such labours as much as possible as it makes me forget about work and other pains...

I must admit I am off playing tennis tomorrow and then the pub naturally for several hours/most of the day. (This doesn't change my opinion that all women are evil though)...

Well, back from our meal which was really quite good - the food and place was of a high standard, but the wine was a let down as it was too sweet and not cold enough, despite the ice bucket.

Anyway, now we are back home - a Woody Allen and more drink?? :nod:

[qimissung]

Your a good sport, Neely. Yes, we women are all evil, and quite proud of it. :)

[Scheherazade]

Your a good sport, Neely. Yes, we women are all evil, and quite proud of it. :)True, true... Oh, all so very true!

Poor Neely never seems to get a break... Wife at home and probably with female boss(es) at work... Heck, even the moderators on this Forum are female!

Yes, yes... "When is a good and decent chap like Neely ever to get a break?", I ask you!

Yours Evilly,

Scher

[MarkBastable]

I doubt if anybody in England has knelt, whilst proposing, for the last hundred years...



I did, in 2001.

[blazeofglory]

Marry and not to marry. What an arduous question. Every married one thinks along these lines. The enjoyment is of course immense. But in one way marriage is a variant of prostitution, legalized and freed. We set homes together and we bring up the kids mutually. We love, care and romance, but how long? Nobody can say. In a few years most become fed up but after a certain age, when people start ageing married ones become the best companions.

[Emil Miller]

I did, in 2001.

Well we all have our jokey moments.

[MarkBastable]

Well we all have our jokey moments.


Most of us do - you should try it. In this case, though, I wasn't joking.

[Emil Miller]

In this case, though, I wasn't joking.

Then you can count yourself very lucky.


I don't think a man (or woman) should be made to kneel in front of their partner. If any man knelt for me, I'd kick him in the face.

[Vonny]

Your a good sport, Neely. Yes, we women are all evil, and quite proud of it.

True, true... Oh, all so very true!

Poor Neely never seems to get a break... Wife at home and probably with female boss(es) at work... Heck, ....

Yes, yes... "When is a good and decent chap like Neely ever to get a break?", I ask you!

Yours Evilly,

If any man knelt for me, I'd kick him in the face.

All of this makes me tremble.

I was in a session where a woman supervisor in her twenties was training a man. The supervisor and I were in the front seat of the car and the man was in the back seat. She was talking to me very boldly and confidently, as always, and then all of the sudden she announced, "We're different as a company in that the majority of our employees are women, so we do a lot of ball busting here!" My jaw just dropped. The remark came out of nowhere, it pertained to nothing. The young man in the backseat remained silent.

In our society in which women are now the majority, the abuse of men is accepted and celebrated. The idea is that men forced women into subordination for millennia, and so now they have it coming. Women need to get even. But - the era of "women have no brains and should only be entrusted with breeding and cooking" is past. The men today don't have this mindset, even if they don't want their children raised on fast food. Few men today don't desire a subordinated woman and women today have no personal experience of being subservient to anyone.

I was kicked and hit in the face, as well as elsewhere, as I grew up. By the time I was a teenager my jaws had been dislocated and the joints had deteriorated. My senior year of high school I had a reconstructive surgery in which an incision was made underneath my upper lip and my entire face lifted off my head. Then they broke my jaws and tried to repair the joint, then permanent wires were inserted into my jaws. My face was so hacked into that my upper wisdom teeth were lifted out from the top! To allow for recovery, my mouth was then packed will plastic and my teeth wired together. My mouth was wired closed for 2 months.

If I clench my teeth now, I can talk and breathe, but during recovery from that surgery I couldn't talk and could barely breathe because of swelling and because of the plastic in my mouth. When I left the hospital, I was taken home and left by myself every night. I know now that if I'd begun vomiting, which could have easily happened, I'd have died because no one had told me how to cut the wires, and I couldn't use the phone to call anyone. During the two month recovery, the only way I could eat was to use a device with a long tube that had to extend behind my back teeth to squirt liquid down my throat.

The injury to my jaw isn't evident in my appearance today, but I'm troubled by it. It often slips out of joint as I talk and I have to take my hand and move it slightly to the left to slip it back in, it makes a popping sound and is often sore.

I loved the person who kicked me. As a female I say, if the person loves you, even if he's a man, don't kick him unless he really deserves it.

So much of abuse today, especially as perpetrated by women is mental/emotional abuse. I have been the victim of mental emotional/mental abuse of my mother since I was 7. It may have gone on before that but I don't remember. But I know that mental/emotional abuse is not a trivial form of abuse. I might say more about mental/emotional abuse later because I think the "to marry or not to marry" thread is a good place for it. Because, in the words of my brother: "Almost every man, no matter how intelligent, will end up making this mistake at least once. And if he didn't have a vasectomy first, god help him."

It's not acceptable in our society for a man to complain of being abused. He should be "bigger" and overlook the "carrying on" of the woman. They say, "That's a woman, haha, what can I do?" Plus, everyone knows that men don't really have any feelings, right?

And then there's this psychobabble that says that "everyone is responsible for his/her own feelings." It's not our responsibility to concern ourselves with another persons feelings. If we hurt someone else, so what? If that person were more mature they wouldn't be affected by another person's rudeness or cruelty.

Much of mental/emotional abuse is subtle and tends to "fly under the radar." You know you're hurt but you're not sure what happened to you. You're mind can't grasp it as when you've been physically kicked and you can readily see that it was wrong. Mental abuse leaves you feeling uneasy, unsettled, confused. it keeps you off balance, not knowing what to expect next. I destroys your will to live.

As a child I believed that the problem was me, and that I deserved what I got. I blamed myself. I worked my brain constantly trying to figure out what I'd done wrong so I could correct myself, but I could never figure it out. I'd think, "I'll skip going to skate and stay home to do more work, and this time I'll get those dishes squeaky clean," but no matter what I did or how hard I tried it was never enough, never good enough.

The other crazy making thing is that mental/emotional abusers have good qualities. My mother paid an insane amount for my orthodontia, and she'd be devastated if I died. And I care for her, which makes it all the more painful

I'm 25 and female, so I guess a woman, but I don't usually refer to myself that way. I have a couple of good female friends, but generally I do not like women.

[MarkBastable]

Then you can count yourself very lucky.

Yeah, yeah. Thanks for the condescension. The point is, there have been those who've adhered to that outdated ritual recently, for reasons of their own, which have nothing to do with your speculative dismissiveness.

[Scheherazade]

Vonny,

I am very sorry to hear about the hard time you had to go through while growing up; however, I am failing to see how it is related to the topic at hand: marriage.

I cannot help but wonder whether you have read the thread from the start; if not, please give it a try.
and women today have no personal experience of being subservient to anyone.And the naivety of this statement makes me tremble.

I am not suggesting that there are no men in subservient positions but to dismiss the fact that women in general are more likely to get a raw deal...

[MarkBastable]

Incidentally, in the poll options, the state (I am married....) is tied inseparably to the sentiment (...and I'm all for it.)

Shouldn't there be at least two complementary options? Like....

I am married and if I could travel back in time I would rather pound my testicles flat with a wooden mallet than enter into the situation in which I now find myself.

Plus another - the equivalent for women?

Me, I'd still go for the first option offered in the poll. But no one married has not, some mornings, felt like voting for the options I suggest. Those extremes, in fact, might be the energy source that sustains marriage.

[Vonny]

I perhaps worded that one statement incorrectly. I myself have been subservient, and my mother was battered and very subservient until I was 7 years old... but I meant this is a very different world than the one that existed 60 years ago, especially in terms of attitude.

I haven't read the entire thread from the beginning. But my thoughts are heartfelt.

I didn't mean to offend anyone. I know that the comments I quoted were made in a light-hearted manner. But I believe that words are very powerful. Often the sentiments, even of jokes, can resonate and pass from person to person, and can become a virus of the mind, sweeping society. And then some individuals will take it to the next level, of actually kicking someone in the face, or the emotional equivalent.

I do believe that my post relates to marriage. Marriage produces children. It's all about family isn't it? People who abuse children also are dysfunctional spouses. And my mother went through several marriages that I witnessed as I grew up. Abuse is prevalent, and I think it is relevant. -- Not to mention that because of my past experiences I won't be getting married or even having a relationship. Who wants a female who can barely open her mouth without her jaw slipping out of joint?

Also, I don't think of my mom as evil. She loves me. I think she has a touch of mental illness, (probably from being beaten too much), as many people do today.

Actually I went back and looked at that sentence again -- I worded the entire thing incorrectly. It's beginning should have read: "Few men today desire a subordinated woman." Not: "Few men today don't desire a subordinated woman."

One more thing, abuse is abuse. It doesn't matter if it's a woman or a man who is abused.

[qimissung]

Vonny, I'm a little concerned about your emotional health. Although you've obviously come a long, long way from your nightmarish childhood, I sense that you have a ways to go still.

For one, I definitely think there is a man out there who would want a woman who's jaw slipped out of joint. What your saying is, I think, who wants someone who's broken? And while it might take every day of the rest of your life, building viable connections with the men and women who enter your life is a worthy cause. We are all broken, a little bit, by the time we reach adulthood.

I am sorry the abuse seeped into the crevices of your soul. But wake up in the morning and know that no one here (or very few anyway) mean ill of the others. There is affectionate humor in our give and take. We welcome you to join in with us, and begin to feel safe here. :)

[Vonny]

Thank you qimissung. You're really kind. I sensed that you wouldn't get upset at my quoting you. I know that what you say (especially you and a few others that I've distinguished) are speaking affectionately, so I wasn't trying to use you as an example of anything really. The reason I quoted you is that the words resonated of what I hear among other women, women I work with and know in other capacities, who really are, if not evil, then very mean. And I guess I don't understand the humor in a person calling herself evil. I know you're not evil at all, but I don't understand the humor. It's okay, you don't need to explain it to me.

My main reason for not wanting to be in a relationship is that I don't want all of the complexity that goes with that, because I've had enough. I have more casual relationships which are good for me.

It's interesting that you say this to me: "I'm a little concerned about your emotional health." I've never heard this from my own mother. It's funny that I had a dream where a librarian, a woman who I see in passing and is really sweet, and who I've seen once a week or so for several years, sat me down one day in the library and began saying things like this to me, such as, "How are you doing lately?" It was a very strange dream. I suppose all abused people have these dreams, of meeting someone who is loving and accepting of them. And often people whom I barely know will say things to me that are compassionate and I'm surprised because I never heard anything like it from my mom or an aunt, or anyone like that. I took my mom to the cardiologist last week. When he came into the room he looked at me and said, "And why aren't you sleeping? You're going to be the next one on this examining table right here!" It was so weird that he could just look at me and see that I hadn't been sleeping, but my mother would never notice. And he acted concerned for me, not just for my mom.

The family members who I can connect with on a human level are my brothers, especially the oldest one, (who, for the next few weeks, is in a remote region of Wyoming with no satellite or means of communication.)

Maybe I'll come back to this thread in a few days. The things I wrote about here I can't think about for too long at a time. I think abuse, especially mental and emotional abuse, which is so prevalent and often not recognized, pertains to the marriage topic, and I do know a little more about it. For one thing, I don't think that women today are more likely to get a raw deal than men are. I think many men are abused but they "suck it up," and try to pretend, even to themselves, that it isn't happening to them. And they know that if they mention it, they will be invalidated by others.

[qimissung]

Hey, Vonny. Scher and I are lucky. Our personal lives are so free of ugly things that we can afford to joke about "evil." I can only speak for myself when I say that I had parents who loved me from the day I was born until the day they died; I feel that I have been able to do the same for my children. I know of evil. Sometimes I can see glimpses of it, like a flash of distant lightning in a dark sky, when I hear of a battered child in the news.

But you live in opposite world, where evil really did exist, and for you, you just see kindness as those same flashes of light in a dark sky. Perhaps your mother is damaged in some way, that she is unable to be more actively kind to you, to "see" you more clearly. I am sorry. My heart aches that kindness, love, joy are more abstract for you than tangible realities. That you are the person you are is somewhat of a miracle.

So I hope you will come back and give us a chance. We can be kind here too, when we think of it. I hope you will someday come to think of us as friends. :)

[Vonny]

qimissung, I do feel that it's friendly here. This place is very different. If it weren't, believe me, I wouldn't be here voluntarily! I do have some very good people in my life, including a couple of females, but a mother can only be replaced in a dream. My brother somehow gets to civilization a couple of times a week to call me, but we can't email twice a day right now.

After reading your post I realized that I do see the world through a very different lens. I never saw it as actually a different lens. For one thing, I'd have great difficulty reading this thread from beginning to end. I see parts of things, or I'll be reading and come to something and just stop there and read it over and over and analyse it deeper. I have this trouble with emotional topics, not with technical so much. In life, if too much is going on around me, I can't take it all in. Sometimes it takes me a while to figure out what is going on in the forum, and I've mistaken some people as being negative when they weren't at all.

The women that I know who are vicious, such as the "ball buster" I know, have no idea what it is to be crushed. She is very bold and confident. If I were to tell her that I tremble, (which I'd never reveal to her) she would have no idea what I'm talking about, and would probably mock me a bit.

I will say a few more things about emotional abuse. My mom rarely orders me to do things. She makes me guess what I need to do. There is manipulation and coercion. I'll come back another day and tell how that works.

My brother's wife was a very nice woman. She wasn't the kind who 'tell men to take out the garbage and clean the garage.' She sat in front of her tv set and he'd go and work all day long outside in the heat, on something that needed doing, (which was for her benefit as much as for his) and she'd never look out the window and say, "Hey, are you going to faint out there? Could you use some water?" She'd never say, "Wow, it's looking better out there!" Now, yes, we all know that he's a big boy and he can get his own water, which is what most women will say, "Give me a break, you can get your own water, so shut up."

But what happens when you live with a spouse who doesn't care if you live or die, is that you become self-harming. I don't know why it is, but when your mother or spouse abuses you, you become self-harming, sort of like Mark B described in his last post. For a couple of years my brother "forgot" to drink very much water. And then he got kidney stones, the suffering of which he was on his own with. Fortunately, since he was self-employed, he had good health insurance through his wife, so he could go to the hospital. Now that he's in Wyoming... with no telephone to call for help if he is struck down by a kidney stone, or if he's bitten by a rattle snake... he has no health insurance, but he feels more love in his life now and is unlikely to have a recurrence of the kidney stones and the need of medical care.

My brother's wife lavishly celebrated every birthday and anniversary, dotted every "i" and crossed every "t." She said "I love you," every day as my mom does to me. She also had some very good qualities. She didn't spend extravagantly, and she didn't nag about his sports, which he sometimes goes away on trips for.

His wife didn't cook and didn't know how to cook. He's a great cook and cooked every meal they ever had at home. You know, every person needs to know how to cook because how can you be healthy if you can not even steam a vegetable?

There's a lot of emphasis put on saying "I love you." If someone loves me, I can feel it and I don't need to be told. If every message that someone sends me says, "You mean nothing," and she say's "I love you," it confuses me. Also, I feel that I need to treat her in a loving way if she loves me. I'm always asking myself, "Am I seeing it wrong? Maybe she doesn't know what she's doing? Maybe if I treat her better and better she'll eventually reciprocate." But it doesn't happen.

When you are mentally abused you can't see it yourself. My brother showed me what had happened to me, and then I showed him what his wife was doing to him.

But often the abused person will be told, "You did something to deserve it." I think that especially happens to men. People will say, "Why would she do that to you? She's a nice woman." The idea is that there has to be a motive for someone to mistreat someone else. But often there is no reason at all.

And then when the wife arranged marriage counseling, (with a woman counselor) my brother was accused of being "non-communicative," because everyone knows that men don't know how to communicative. This was the most horrendous joke, because she was always stuck in the tv or talking to her sister or friends on the phone! As I grew up, in the rare instances when my mom was at home, she was always, always on the phone... Plus, trying to talk with a woman, when you can get one to talk, is the most crazy-making experience! I will come back to this, because I've beat my head into the wall all of my life trying to talk to my mom, and it is impossible!!

The first time my brother told his wife, (who very much wanted her marriage), that he wanted a divorce, he told her and left the house. When he went home a few hours later, he thought she might be crying or something. -- She was sitting in front of her tv eating a popsicle! No emotion at all!

Please, it would be best if no one responded because I need to get my work finished for a few days! :rolleyes5: :smile5:

[Jack of Hearts]

Seen it fly like a dove, seen it sink like a stone.

But you can hear Aesop's punchline everywhere:

like draws like.

If you should ever wander out in to the world looking for another person to fill you with a sense of value or purpose, a leech, maybe Aesop will be waiting with a big 'told ya so.'





J

[Paulclem]

Cynicism is an easy attitude to take about marriage, and it's the right one. It's not a decision that should be lightly taken, or taken for the wrong reasons. Cynicism can protect against getting married to the wrong person, or from seeking out the unsuitable. I think it's a natural brake, as it can be hard to separate love from lust. Cynicism is the default position.

But then, when it's you considering marriage against all you've ever thought and said, and it seems to be the right thing to do for itself - well then you know that it has become a realistic option to be considered.

No-one's attitudes stay the same.

[Vonny]

Thank you for not responding to me. What I'm saying here is emotionally loaded for me. :rolleyes5:

I think the problem with women describing themselves as evil, (or another one I hear is the 5 letter "b" word, they say "I'm a B----, Yes I am!") is that women begin to see this as desirable, and a necessary component of being a woman, especially a successful woman.

I debated about describing this event because there are many, many people who know about it, even if they don't know about the ;) that took place. But I'm going to tell it. Most of the nurses only read what pertains to their profession, to stay current and maintain their licenses...

I know of this event from my brother's wife, a surgical nurse, who told us about it, and I myself watched her facial expressions and heard her vocal tones as she described it: A man had an argument with his wife and became very upset. He went outside the house and stood in front of the window looking in at her. Then he put a gun underneath his chin, pulled the trigger, and blew off his face. But he didn't die. So he was in the emergency room. They were doing everything imaginable to resuscitate this guy, (who should have been allowed to die because he obviously wanted to.) My brother's wife said that in the ER, when it had come to the nursing team's attention how and why this shooting unfolded, that one nurse turned to the others, winked ;) said, "Boy, he showed her didn't he!!" And then she said all the nurses had snickered, and she herself snickered as she recounted the event.

There's a myth of a "sisterhood" among women. Anywhere there's a group of women together, there's a lot of backstabbing and throat-cutting going on, even among hospital nurses. - Where the women team up is in their mission to "give the men what they've got coming." - But if you look, for instance, at the clothing/fashion fanaticism, I think it's more about women trying to outdo each other than about attracting men. (Even though down deep, they do want a man, and not one that has been emasculated.)

I'm not saying there aren't horrible males. My father was the worst thing that ever crept upon the earth. I have 4 older brothers. The oldest and the youngest, my gay brother, are both docile. My gay brother has a "Someone can kill me, I don't really care," attitude. He doesn't care too much if the Aryan Nation kills him, though he hides his "inclination" well. The 2 middle brothers are angry and pounded on me and my gay brother as we grew up, because we were all left at home alone. I once asked my mother why she allowed them to do this to me, as they were much bigger than me; she said, "Because I needed them to take care of you when I was gone." And they were doing things to me such as rolling me up in a blanket or rug and holding me there as I suffocated! They had all left home by the time I had my jaw surgery, and I was left entirely alone all night long as I recovered. During my recovery, with my mouth wired shut I had a girlfriend who called me every night and would hold the phone for hours and talk to me, even though I couldn't talk to her, but I could've at least made a sound to let her know if something had gone wrong. My mom was jealous of my friend, and my mom later accused us of being lesbians, and I didn't understand what my mom was accusing me of - it had to be explained to me! But I felt so ashamed that I completely wrote this friend out of my life forever!

Back to abusive men, when I was 19 I went out with a guy who hit me, and so that's why my jaw is messed up again after I had surgery to correct it. I told my mother I had been in a car accident. Then when this guy broke up with me because I was traumatized, I was broken-hearted for a couple of weeks, before I realized I was better off without him. For this reason, I don't trust my judgement, and I know to avoid those situations! I admire from afar, from the other side of the earth, preferably.

I'm sure you qimissung have read the Little House books, if no one else has. Ma instilled such lessons into her her daughters as: "Pretty is as pretty does." In other words, it's not your appearance that makes you pretty so much as your actions. But doesn't this phrase "pretty is as pretty does" just sound stupid and silly to us, coming from our mindset today?

Well, anyway, I think that Laura had a rough time growing up with Pa, and I don't envy what Ma went through. But Laura took those values into her marriage with Almanzo, and they had a great marriage. If you read Laura's newspaper articles, and her letters, which are as interesting as the Little House books, you see that Laura may have been more dominant in the marriage than Almanzo. Early in their marriage, Laura worked as a seamstress to earn the money to buy land in Missouri. It seems that she made the important decisions, but she was obviously considerate of Almanzo's feelings and needs. Almanzo didn't feel threatened by Laura at all; he wanted her to be happy. They also had a friendly competition between the two of them as to whose work brought in more income, mostly in terms of what they each produced on the farm. Her income from the newspaper isn't really mentioned at all. And Laura treasured all of Almanzo's carpentry efforts. He built incredible furniture and cabinetwork for her. He was a homebody, not one to be writing for a newspaper. ... But - if you read Laura's daughter's (Rose Wilder Lane) writings, published after her parent's deaths, you see that Rose said: "My father was the provider for our family."

What is happening now that men are no longer allowed to be "the provider for their family" (even if there's a bit more to the story) is that they are completely destabilized and confused. Many men see the military and trophy-hunting as the way to prove their masculinity. It used to be that men hunted to feed their families, but now we have this deranged trophy-hunting, a moose's body in the woods with its head gone. And we have more and more very sick men like this.

(About the Little House books, for the minority who knows what I'm talking about, some "modern" ideas were added to those books I believe by an editor, or maybe by Rose, which were not characteristic of Laura: The way she was courting Almanzo because she wanted to ride behind his fancy horses, for instance. That was added to spice the books up because Almanzo didn't even own those thoroughbred horses. He was a dirt farmer. And Laura wouldn't have used anyone that way.)

Oh well, as I said, if I've said nothing wrong, please don't respond to me on this thread. :smile5:

[Scheherazade]

Vonny> I noticed that you carried what was said in this thread to the another -all together irrelevant- one. So, I thought I should clear it in this thread where it originated -even though I still cannot see how it all relates to the thread topic directly.

and women today have no personal experience of being subservient to anyone.And the naivety of this statement makes me tremble.In my above statement, I was not dismissive of the abuse or the corrective operations you say you had to go through.

What I called "naive" -and still do- is the assumption that there are no women forced to be in submissive roles today. There are many women, both in the West and in the East, who are forced to play the second best to the men in their lives -and sometimes even to the women perhaps.

I do not wish to pursue an issue which is obviously rather sensitive for you but please do not let your own personal experiences blur the wider picture either.

Also, would you like to start a blog and post your thoughts there rather than in these threads? It is hard for others not to respond when you post long replies yourself.

[Vonny]

The other night I came across a good example of a modern marriage after I happened to put a movie into my DVD player called Revolutionary Road.

This movie describes a marital hell. Although it takes place in the 1950's, the commentary, that I watched a few minutes of, explains that it is really a modern story.

In the opening scene, April (played by Kate Winslet) is upset that her ambitions to be an actress aren't being fulfilled, and she is now a wife and mother. Frank (played by Leonardo DiCaprio) tries to give her some words of comfort, but she is angry and rejecting of him. A bit of mutual abuse then ensues (of course, it has to be mixed and confused a bit or the deal Frank is getting would be too obvious.) I also think that if these scenes had been completely reversed, (which is what I do in my mind, I look at it as if the man were in the woman's role and woman in the man's role) where Leonardo was as aggressive and seriously hitting below the belt as Kate was doing to him, that audiences today would walk out of the theater.

Then April really does get the better of Frank when she begins to flail her arms, point her finger aggressively in his face... and this is what she screams at the top of her voice:

"Do you know what you are Frank? You're disgusting. Just because you got me safely into this little trap, you think you can bully me into feeling whatever you want me to feel! ... You pathetic, self-deluded little boy. Look at you! Look at you and tell me, how by any stretch of the imagination you can call yourself a man?"

It seems to me that April really is more aggressive in this exchange than Frank is. Frank then loses his mind and punches his car, smashing up his hand. Kate then gets into the car to go home, and you can see she feels pretty good about herself, she feels that she won.

Now Laura Ingalls Wilder would have never been this disrespectful of anyone, ever. It would have never entered her mind to do something like that, because it would have been as degrading to herself to do that as it would have been to her husband, daughter or co-worker. Also, after reading of Laura's writings, especially from her newspaper column and women's magazines that she wrote for, I don't believe that Laura had a conflicted spirit at all. She was very straight-forward and easy to read. She treated all people, included herself, with respect.

If this April character had grown up in Laura's neighborhood, Ma would have fed April some "vanity cakes," which were all puffed up on the outside and hollow in the middle, because that was April's nature. In the pioneer days, it was necessary for people to be functional or no one would have survived.

Most of the movie Revolutionary Road I wasn't able to watch. But in the end it appeared that April killed herself to get away from Frank. So Kate kills herself to be free of Leonardo :lol:

Laura Ingalls Wilder was a farm woman who was very happy with Almanzo until he died at 91.

So I think it is a symptom of our modern world that marriage is no longer really viable.

(Anyone can respond to me. In my above post, I wanted to illustrate that I know the meaning subservient, having grown up with brothers, and I didn't want a response to that. But actually it felt rather good to tell the story publicly.

If I've made any mistakes here, will someone please let me know, and I will try to make adjustments.) If I write at all, I'm not sure what else I have to draw from other than books, movies, and my own personal experience.

[Here is an edit: I'm not laughing because April killed herself. The laugh is because I can see it's Leonardo DiCaprio. Also, it was obvious that Frank loved April. She was the one he was passionate about. He wanted the unborn child that she killed herself trying to abort. -- But the laugh was only associated with the fact that this is Leonardo!!]