hippies, drugs etc. - would it work if everyone was a hippie?

[SleepyWitch]

Following up on comments about hippies and drugs from the Religion and War thread: would the world be a better place if everyone was a hippie? Would it even work? Could everyone live a hippie life or would we starve? Did the hippies have any long-term vision or agenda for reform/revolution etc. or were they only interested in smoking dope and having a nice time?

[billl]

I don't think there was discussion of hippies in the other thread.

[SleepyWitch]

I'm fairly sure there was, seeing as I was one of the people who brought it up. :goof:

[billl]

let me check

[billl]

my apologies! you said


I do believe that if a majority of those involved in decision-making (i.e. politicians and their advisers) were pacifists it would work, but I don't think you find many pacifists in such positions. Of course, it would also work if everyone was a hippie and smoked dope and sr*wed around all day, because then they'd be too busy to go to war. But even most hippies got tired of that and smoking dope etc. never did much for putting food on people's tables. Or maybe some of them change their mind once they are faced with having to defend their country.

And Virgil made a joke along the same lines.

I do think there are still some who think along these lines, but the discussion in that thread had shifted to "people who use illegal 'drugs'" rather than hippies, pretty quickly.

I am personally happy with how the past hippie movement sort of played out--it brought to light a sort of exaggerated idealism, maybe, but was still inspiring and positive. It is easy now to look down upon it, but we are still in a position to benefit from some of the sentiments. Still, I think the ideas of individual exploration, creativity, and that sort of thing can stand separate from the more utopian, communal hippie ideals--which still might have some adherents, but have far from blossomed into what the 1960's flower-children might have imagined. Even today, in the Burning Man festival and elsewhere, there is a sort of critical mass (or pyramid scheme) that inevitably brings things back from 'perfection'.

Hopefully I'm not miscasting anything here, but I think that any sort of focus on hippies is going to be a burden against the Carl Sagan and Michael Bloomberg types (not to mention countless other non-hippies) that had sort of craned their necks into the other discussion/thread. But yes, the hippies have always been a part of it :)

[NikolaiI]

Bill is right, at least as far as my post was concerned. Paul McCartney was at one point, I don't know about Carl Sagan, but Bob Marley wasn't exactly a hippie. Anyway this is Virgil and my posts.


Well, my comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. :wink5: I suppose it depends on how dependent they were on the drugs and what type of drugs.


One point that might be made is the complete misunderstanding of certain drugs in our society. For instance that alcohol is a hard drug, while marijuana is a soft drug. Yet because of propaganda most people don't believe this or understand it. The result is bad health for people who choose a hard drug over a soft drug. Other drugs like mescaline in peyote are used the Native Americans as a aide to seeing the spirit world, as Alan Watts says, these are medicines. But our society is all confused about the point. But as you say it's for another topic.

So... marijuana is a soft drug, and alcohol is a hard drug, and yet the mindset of a large percentage of our population has absolutely no idea of the difference. My grandmother and grandfather, on my mother and father's sides respectively, both died from alcoholism - her when she was 54, him when he was 74.

The main point is that people think of marijuana as a "drug" and alcohol they do not even consider a drug. Marijuana is further an "illegal drug" and it's just deeply in the minds of our population that it's worse than alcohol. And nothing could be further from the truth. My grandparents both died in a very bad way, after alcohol had ruined their bodies and minds. Marijuana is used as a religious sacrament in Rastafarianism.

It's for political reasons that it is illegal, and it is very harmful to the people that it is - that is a political issue. We don't need to talk about legalization to talk about the two psychoactive drugs, marijuana and alcohol. If we just talk about the drugs then it is not a political discussion.

I guess that doesn't address whether the world would be better if everyone was a hippie, but you asked me to reply on this thread. That's what I've got to say about the issue.

The other part of what I had to say was the second part of my post. Mescaline, as I said, in peyote was used as an aide in spirtual practices with Native Americans, an aide in helping to see the spirit world and get guidance from the spirits. If one is sincerely interested in reading a report of mescaline as a medicine, they should read the prologue to the Joyous Cosmology, by Alan Watts.
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/jcprolog.htm

[The Atheist]

Following up on comments about hippies and drugs from the Religion and War thread: would the world be a better place if everyone was a hippie? Would it even work? Could everyone live a hippie life or would we starve? Did the hippies have any long-term vision or agenda for reform/revolution etc. or were they only interested in smoking dope and having a nice time?

Hippies were drop-outs, I was referring to smoking marijuana, and as billl correctly pointed out, neither Michael Bloomberg or Carl Sagan could be described as hippies in anyone's wildest dreams.

Hippiedom was more about escaping from 1950s morals imposed by parents than any kind of organised movement, which is why most of them ended up starving in SF until the Diggers started giving them free food.

My point was that dope-smokers are not necessarily hippies, drop-outs, unemployed or useless.

[Paulclem]

The other part of what I had to say was the second part of my post. Mescaline, as I said, in peyote was used as an aide in spirtual practices with Native Americans, an aide in helping to see the spirit world and get guidance from the spirits. If one is sincerely interested in reading a report of mescaline as a medicine, they should read the prologue to the Joyous Cosmology, by Alan Watts.

Alan Watts is a singularly solitary voice in advocating drugs to enhance spirituality - especially considering this is from 1970.

He makes some good points about mind and body early on in the article, but I don't know of any tradition that advocates such an approach.

[NikolaiI]

He makes some good points about mind and body early on in the article, but I don't know of any tradition that advocates such an approach.

You should read the whole article.

Two traditions are Native American spirituality and Rastafarianism that come to mind. The former use peyote, as I said, in an aide in visits to the spirit world, and the latter uses marijuana a religious sacrement.


Alan Watts is a singularly solitary voice in advocating drugs to enhance spirituality - especially considering this is from 1970.

However this is just wrong. This another good article about the subject, taken from an excerpt of a book. And I haven't done a great deal of research about all the scientists and philosophers who have done work on this subject, but Henri Bergsen, William James, Alduous Huxley, and Humphrey Osmond (the author of this article) are just four others who have.

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/osmond2.htm

If you are willing to study something outside of your confines, I really suggest you read this - carefully, objectively, without emotion or bias - and that it will do a lot of good for you.

Besides the four I mentioned, there is an unknown number of spiritual leaders in Native American history who used peyote in their religion to help visit the spirit world. It's one of the most sacred spiritual sacraments, and yet it's buried over by carelessness to know the truth for oneself.

Here is a great deal of work done on Peyote as the religious sacrament of Native Americans.

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/peyotmnu.htm

[Paulclem]

I don't hear any modern advocates of the use of drugs in spirituality. I did read the whole article - perhaps I should read it more carefully - but I was referring to more mainstream traditions neglecting shamanism, Native American Indians and Rastafarianism - perhaps reflecting that I didn't consider them to be mainstream. perhaps that's wrong, but I tend to think of world religions.

I really suggest you read this - carefully, objectively, without emotion or bias - and that it will do a lot of good for you.


an excerpt from "A Review of the Clinical Effects of Psychotomimetic Agents"
Annals N.Y. Acad. Sci., March 14, 1957


No, I'm afraid I wasn't impressed by this name dropping article.

Although occasionally trivial and sometimes frightening, their like seems to have been at least part of the experience of visionaries and mystics the world over.

This - quoted from the article - is pure speculation, but then back in 1957, it was presumed by some that drugs would open the Doors to Perception. It hasn't happened, and the reason it hasn't happened is that the experiences are unrelated. If they are related, then why aren't they advocated by teachers in major religions?

The mind cannot be explored by proxy. To deepen our understanding, not simply to great madnesses but of the nature of mind itself, we must use our instruments as coolly and boldly as those who force their aircraft through other invisible barriers. Disaster may overtake the most skilled. Today and in the past, for much lesser prizes, men have taken much greater risks.

This writer is advocating the exploration of drugs knowing that it is problematic for some people. This is borne out by people affected by hallucinogenics with psychosis. Is it really worth the risk even if the risk is low - particularly in seeking religious experiences when there are mystical paths that can be taught.

In T. H. Huxley's words, we may, if we wish, "sit down in front of the facts like a child" or as Thomas Traherne, a seventeenth-century English mystic, puts it, "to unlearn the dirty devices of the world and become as it were a little child again."** Mystic and scientist have the same recipe for those who seek truth.

How in the world can he assume that the 17th century experience was anything like a trip?

[NikolaiI]

Peyote is a spiritual medicine. It can bring us in touch with the God within us, our Heavenly Father and our Earthly Mother. Peyote puts us in balance again with the Earth underneath our feet... Peyote is a plant sacrament. It is a plant teacher. It is a way of life. Our time in these bodies is brief. When we eat the Peyote we experience time and eternity, and it is from that vantage that, the next day, we can live our life in a very positive and non-trivial way, realizing that this day could be the last and everyone around us is our brother and sister and we need each other.
—Rabbi Matthew S. Kent

http://www.peyoteway.org/


but then back in 1957, it was presumed by some that drugs would open the Doors to Perception. It hasn't happened, and the reason it hasn't happened is that the experiences are unrelated. If they are related, then why aren't they advocated by teachers in major religions?

What. the. hell. are you talking about? when you say it hasn't happened.

That is the most insane thing I've ever heard someone say.

[Paulclem]

Peyote is a spiritual medicine. It can bring us in touch with the God within us, our Heavenly Father and our Earthly Mother. Peyote puts us in balance again with the Earth underneath our feet... Peyote is a plant sacrament. It is a plant teacher. It is a way of life. Our time in these bodies is brief. When we eat the Peyote we experience time and eternity, and it is from that vantage that, the next day, we can live our life in a very positive and non-trivial way, realizing that this day could be the last and everyone around us is our brother and sister and we need each other.
—Rabbi Matthew S. Kent

http://www.peyoteway.org/



What. the. hell. are you talking about? when you say it hasn't happened.

That is the most insane thing I've ever heard someone say.

Surely not.

What the articles you posted were suggesting is that hallucinogenics should be experimented with in order to explore spiritual experience. I would dispute that, and I don't hear this being advocated by any of the major religions.

Do you want people to comment on what you put up or would you rather nothing was said? It is a discussion forum after all. I don't think I've said anything offensive to you - but I don't necessarily agree with everything you say.

I happen to think that drugs are a spiritual dead end - and potentially damaging.

[NikolaiI]

I said it was insane because of these points - a, who are you talking about? You don't even know. b, if you even knew who you were talking about, you know nothing about what what they experienced. You would be no more or less credible were you to say "Though they practiced it for centuries, it turns out that Jews never went to heaven."

[Paulclem]

What hasn't happened is visionaries and mystics have made the connection between hallucinogenics and spiritual awakening since the publication of articles you cite. If it's such an opportunity for development, why hasn't it been taken up by prominent practitioners in any major religion?

[NikolaiI]

Look, I'm not going to get into another battle with you Paul, though you seem eternally ready to do so. However you are clearly completely uninformed about the whole topic. Your first assertion was that Alan Watts was a lone voice and yet he is joined by Alduous Huxley who came before him, and hundreds of other scientists. There are dozens if not hundreds of books about the sacred plant Peyote, and its use in Native American spirituality. All you can do is simply snide at these religions, though they are sacred. I am not really interested in getting into an ugly debate with you about this. You are uninformed and yet don't think that hinders you from being an expert.

[BienvenuJDC]

Look, I'm not going to get into another battle with you Paul, though you seem eternally ready to do so. However you are clearly completely uninformed about the whole topic. Your first assertion was that Alan Watts was a lone voice and yet he is joined by Alduous Huxley who came before him, and hundreds of other scientists. There are dozens if not hundreds of books about the sacred plant Peyote, and its use in Native American spirituality. All you can do is simply snide at these religions, though they are sacred. I am not really interested in getting into an ugly debate with you about this. You are uninformed and yet don't think that hinders you from being an expert.

NikolaiI, Paul does make a good point. I didn't find his comments as being snide at all. I personally see those partaking in hallucinogens for a "spiritual experience" to be rather ridiculous. It is but my opinion. Drug induced hallucinations are merely that...drug induced hallucinations.

[NikolaiI]

Part of the genius of Western science is that it finds simpler and more rational ways of doing things that were formerly chancy or laborious. Like any inventive process, it does not always make these discoveries systematically; often it just stumbles upon them, but then goes on to work them into an intelligible order. In medicine, for example, science isolates the essential drug from the former witch-doctor's brew of salamanders, mugwort, powdered skulls, and dried blood. The purified drug cures more surely, but—it does not perpetuate health. The patient still has to change habits of life or diet which made him prone to the disease.

Is it possible, then, that Western science could provide a medicine which would at least give the human organism a start in releasing itself from its chronic self-contradiction? The medicine might indeed have to be supported by other procedures—psychotherapy, "spiritual" disciplines, and basic changes in one's pattern of life—but every diseased person seems to need some kind of initial lift to set him on the way to health. The question is by no means absurd if it is true that what afflicts us is a sickness not just of the mind but of the organism, of the very functioning of the nervous system and the brain. Is there, in short, a medicine which can give us temporarily the sensation of being integrated, of being fully one with ourselves and with nature as the biologist knows us, theoretically, to be? If so, the experience might offer clues to whatever else must be done to bring about full and continuous integration. It might be at least the tip of an Ariadne's thread to lead us out of the maze in which all of us are lost from our infancy.

Relatively recent research suggests that there are at least three such medicines, though none is an infallible "specific." They work with some people, and much depends upon the social and psychological context in which they are given. Occasionally their effects may be harmful, but such limitations do not deter us from using penicillin—often a far more dangerous chemical than any of these three. I am speaking, of course, of mescaline (the active ingredient of the peyote cactus), lysergic acid diethylamide (a modified ergot alkaloid), and psilocybin (a derivative of the mushroom Psilocybe mexicana).

The peyote cactus has long been used by the Indians of the Southwest and Mexico as a means of communion with the divine world, and today the eating of the dried buttons of the plant is the principal sacrament of an Indian church known as the Native American Church of the United States—by all accounts a most respectable and Christian organization. At the end of the nineteenth century its effects were first described by Weir Mitchell and Havelock Ellis, and some years later its active ingredient was identified as mescaline, a chemical of the amine group which is quite easily synthesized.

Lysergic acid diethylamide was first discovered in 1938 by the Swiss pharmacologist A. Hofmann in the course of studying the properties of the ergot fungus. Quite by accident he absorbed a small amount of this acid while making certain changes in its molecular structure, and noticed its peculiar psychological effects. Further research proved that he had hit upon the most powerful consciousness-changing drug now known, for LSD-25 (as it is called for short) will produce its characteristic results in so minute a dosage as 20 micrograms, 1/700,000,000 of an average man's weight.

Psilocybin is derived from another of the sacred plants of the Mexican Indians—a type of mushroom known to them as teonanacatl, "the flesh of God." Following Robert Weitlaner's discovery in 1936 that the cult of "the sacred mushroom" was still prevalent in Oaxaca, a number of mycologists, as specialists in mushrooms are known, began to make studies of the mushrooms of this region. Three varieties were found to be in use. In addition to Psilocybe mexicana there were also Psilocybe aztecorum Heim and Psilocybe wassonii, named respectively after the mycologists Roger Heim and Gordon and Valentina Wasson, who took part in the ceremonies of the cult.

Despite a very considerable amount of research and speculation, little is known of the exact physiological effect of these chemicals upon the nervous system. The subjective effects of all three tend to be rather similar, though LSD-25, perhaps because of the minute dosage required, seldom produces the nauseous reactions so often associated with the other two. All the scientific papers I have read seem to add up to the vague impression that in some way these drugs suspend certain inhibitory or selective processes in the nervous system so as to render our sensory apparatus more open to impressions than is usual. Our ignorance of the precise effect of these drugs is, of course, linked to the still rather fumbling state of our knowledge of the brain. Such ignorance obviously suggests great caution in their use, but thus far there is no evidence that, in normal dosage, there is any likelihood of physiological damage.*

In a very wide sense of the word, each of these substances is a drug, but one must avoid the serious semantic error of confusing them with drugs which induce physical craving for repeated use or which dull the senses like alcohol or the sedatives. They are classed, officially, as hallucinogens—an astonishingly inaccurate term, since they cause one neither to hear voices nor to see visions such as might be confused with physical reality. While they do indeed produce the most complex and very obviously "hallucinatory" patterns before closed eyes, their general effect is to sharpen the senses to a supernormal degree of awareness. The standard dosage of each substance maintains its effects for from five to eight hours, and the experience is often so deeply revealing and moving that one hesitates to approach it again until it has been thoroughly "digested," and this may be a matter of months.

The reaction of most cultured people to the idea of gaining any deep psychological or philosophical insight through a drug is that it is much too simple, too artificial, and even too banal to be seriously considered. A wisdom which can be "turned on" like the switch of a lamp seems to insult human dignity and degrade us to chemical automata. One calls to mind pictures of a brave new world in which there is a class of synthesized Buddhas, of people who have been "fixed" like the lobotomized, the sterilized, or the hypnotized, only in another direction—people who have somehow lost their humanity and with whom, as with drunkards, one cannot really communicate. This is, however, a somewhat ghoulish fantasy which has no relation to the facts or to the experience itself. It belongs to the same kind of superstitious dread which one feels for the unfamiliar, confusing it with the unnatural—the way some people feel about Jews because they are circumcised or even about Negroes because of their "alien" features and color.


Despite the widespread and undiscriminating prejudice against drugs as such, and despite the claims of certain religious disciplines to be the sole means to genuine mystical insight, I can find no essential difference between the experiences induced, under favorable conditions, by these chemicals and the states of "cosmic consciousness" recorded by R. M. Bucke, William James, Evelyn Underhill, Raynor Johnson, and other investigators of mysticism. "Favorable conditions" means a setting which is socially and physically congenial; ideally this would be some sort of retreat house (not a hospital or sanitarium) supervised by religiously oriented psychiatrists or psychologists. The atmosphere should be homelike rather than clinical, and it is of the utmost importance that the supervisor's attitude be supportive and sympathetic. Under insecure, bizarre, or unfriendly circumstances the experience can easily degenerate into a highly unpleasant paranoia. Two days should be set aside—one for the experience itself, which lasts for six or eight hours, and one for evaluation in the calm and relaxed frame of mind that normally follows.

-Prologue, The Joyous Cosmology,
Alan Watts

About Peyote, which was for centuries used by shamans and spiritual leaders in Native American communities, indeed not just used by shamans but used by most members of the tribe, in religious ceremonies - why would you just assume that it's nothing more than an hallucination... why, when you've never experienced it... all you have to go on is what people tell you... keep in mind that an overwhelming majority of anyone who's gone into those cultures to have those experiences has come away saying they had the most genuine spiritual experience of their life.

[Paulclem]

You've posted about two articles on hallucinogens - the earliest from 1970. Have you got any more up to date material? I think it a fair point because that was a time of exprimentation about these drugs and not necessarily wise at all.

It is true that I've never attended a Native American ceremony. Have you? Do you need to to understand the nature of hallucinogens? I'm not speaking blindly about them. Are you?

One piece of guidance in Buddhism is to refrain from subtances which affect the clarity of the mind. However hallucinogens make you feel, it is very difficult to relate he experience to life, and the accepted wisdom is that the experiences are so disparate and unfocused as to be of no use whatsoever. They are also potentialy damaging.

All you can do is simply snide at these religions,

I am disputing the value of hallucinogens in spirituaity.

Thanks for the comment Bien.

[The Atheist]

About Peyote, which was for centuries used by shamans and spiritual leaders in Native American communities, indeed not just used by shamans but used by most members of the tribe, in religious ceremonies - why would you just assume that it's nothing more than an hallucination...

People take a hallucinogen and you ask whether they're hallucinating?

I hear the same thing said of salvia divinorum - that it generates a spiritual experience.

Let me assure you, there are very few hallucinogens I didn't try many years ago and I've had mescaline - both manufactured and in peyote buttons from the cacti - salvia, LSD, mushrooms and others.

I can confirm that none of them are special - they get you high, you hallucinate and then you come down to an unchanged world.

I'm not going to denigrate cultural users of these drugs, but they're really just drugs.


... keep in mind that an overwhelming majority of anyone who's gone into those cultures to have those experiences has come away saying they had the most genuine spiritual experience of their life.

Yep, I've heard those stories as well. I've also heard that a monster lives in Loch Ness, and while I've never actually been there, I don't think that's true, despite the number of people who claim they've seen it.

People who claim "genuine" spiritual experiences while out of it on drugs ought to do more drugs and realise that all hallucinogens can make one believe something mystical has taken place.

[Scheherazade]

W a r n i n g

Please do not personalise your arguments.

Posts containing off-topic and/or personal comments will be removed without further notice.

[OrphanPip]

Most of the hallucinogenic drugs at least don't cause chemical dependence, one can still become psychologically dependent, though some issues with decreasing effectiveness of the drugs makes them less likely to be abused in excess like alcohol is.

Anyway, not a fan of drugs personally, but I don't quite care if others are doing drugs. I think illegality of drugs causes more harm than good, the best course of action would be to legalize drugs and then fight the use through publicity campaigns. Tobacco use has decreased steadily over recent years because it is socially unpopular and people recognize the health costs, this is a much more effective way to fight drug use than through the law.

Personally, I also think the act of locking people up for committing a victimless crime a bit unjust. The only victims of drug use are themselves, and those created by the organized criminal activity generated through making the drugs illegal. If someone steals to fuel their drug habit arrest them, however I don't think merely engaging in an activity that might make you more likely to steal is justification to punish someone.

[NikolaiI]

To O, TA, and P, I will only say this once, and then I will leave. I am doing you a kindness but it is only once.

Hallucinogens are falsely named. They do not make you hallucinate. Actually, everything you have ever experienced up to this point in time has been an hallucination. It is an hallucination of separateness. As Einstein put it, an optical delusion of consciousness.

Now I KNOW that this will make NO impact on you, so I won't ever try to help you again.

[Paulclem]

Whatever the natue of the hallucinogens, my point is that I don't think it is wise to advocate their use in the pursuit of spirituality. That's what I took issue with in the articles you posted. The one you posted in it's entirety is 40 years old and things have moved on from the days of experimentation. I can't think of any modern practitioners who do advocate it.

[BienvenuJDC]

This is what one religious standard says about this topic.
(Ephesians 5:18-21)

And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.