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Egmond Codfried
07-26-2010, 09:11 AM
http://www.jasa.net.au/images/cassportrait.jpg

Cassandra Austen or Jane Austen?


WAS JANE AUSTEN (1775-1817) BLACK?



"In person she was very attractive; her figure was rather tall and slender, her step light and firm, and her whole appearance expressive of health and animation. In complexion she was a clear brunette with a rich colour; she had full round cheeks, with mouth and nose small and wellformed bright hazel eyes, and brown hair forming natural curls close round her face."

James-Edward Austen,
Jane's nephew

~

"... certainly pretty-bright & a good deal of colour in her face – like a doll – no that would not give at all the idea for she had so much expression – she was like a child – quite a child very lively and full of humour."

Mr Fowle,
family friend

~

"... her's was the first face I can remember thinking pretty ... Her hair, a darkish brown, curled naturally – it was in short curls round her face...Her face was rather round than long – she had a bright but not a pink colour – a clear brown complexion and very good hazel eyes. Her hair, a darkish brown, curled naturally, it was in short curls around her face. She always wore a cap ... before she left Steventon she was established as a very pretty girl, in the opinion of most of her neighbours."

Caroline Austen,
Jane's niece

~

"Her hair was dark brown and curled naturally, her large dark eyes were widely opened and expressive. She had clear brown skin and blushed so brightly and so readily."

An early description of young Jane at Steventon by Sir Egerton Brydges

~

"She was tall and slender; her face was rounded with a clear brunette complexion and bright hazel eyes. Her curly brown hair
escaped all round her forehead, but from the time of her coming to live at Chawton she always wore a cap, except when her nieces had her in London and forbade it."

Edward Austen Leigh of Jane's appearence in the years just after the family left Southampton

~

" Her stature rather exceeded the middle height; her carriage and deportment were quiet but graceful; her complexion of the finest texture, it might with truth be said that her eloquent blood spoke through her modest
cheek."

" Her pure and eloquent blood spake in her cheeks and so distinctly wrought that you had almost said her body thought."

Henry Austen said of his sister

~


SOURCE: http://www.jasa.net.au/images/austen.htm

Emil Miller
07-26-2010, 09:19 AM
[QUOTE=Egmond Codfried;928423[/QUOTE]



WAS JANE AUSTEN (1775-1817) BLACK?

You have asked the same question before and the answer is NO.

Are you sure that you don't work for the BBC?

dafydd manton
07-26-2010, 09:24 AM
The gentleman in question has also attempted to prove that Pushkin, Martha the sister of Lazarus, Queen Sophie Charlotte, George Washington, Hamlet (!), Beethoven, Anne Boleyn and the entire nation of Iceland are or were black. A look through other internet websites and forums is illuminating. I'm not particularly sure that I appreciate the phrases "strangely irrational" and "for lack of useful activities".

Egmond Codfried
07-26-2010, 09:31 AM
Some quotes from Jane Austen’s novels, which show that Austen wrote about people who were ‘sallow, brown, very brown and black’. And they intermarried too.


citaat:
'[henry crawford], was not handsome; no, when they first saw him, he was: ‘ absolutely plain, black and plain;’ but still he was the gentleman, -northanger abbey

citaat:
Oh! They give themselves such airs. They are the most conceited creatures in the world, and think themselves of so much importance! By the by, though i have thought of it a hundred times, i have always forgot to ask you what is your favourite complexion in a man. Do you like them best dark or fair?"

"i hardly know. I never much thought about it. Something between both, i think. Brown--not fair, and--and not very dark."

"very well, catherine. That is exactly he. I have not forgot your description of mr. Tilney--'a brown skin, with dark eyes, and rather dark hair.' well, my taste is different. I prefer light eyes, and as to complexion--do you know--i like a sallow better than any other. You must not betray me, if you should ever meet with one of your acquaintance answering that description." -northanger abbey

citaat:
Emma watson was not more than of the middle height, well made and plump, with an air of healthy vigour. Her skin was very brown, but clear, smooth, and glowing, which, with a lively eye, a sweet smile, and an open countenance, gave beauty to attract, and expression to make that beauty improve on acquaintance. […]the next morning brought a great many visitors. It was the way of the place always to call on mrs. Edwards the morning after a ball, and this neighbourly inclination was increased in the present instance by a general spirit of curiosity on emma`s account, as everybody wanted to look again at the girl who had been admired the night before by lord osborne. Many were the eyes, and various the degrees of approbation with which she was examined. Some saw no fault, and some no beauty. With some her brown skin was the annihilation of every grace, and others could never be persuaded that she was half so handsome as elizabeth watson had been ten years ago. -the watsons

citaat:
Miss dashwood had a delicate complexion, regular features, and a remarkably pretty figure. Marianne was still handsomer. Her form, though not so correct as her sister's, in having the advantage of height, was more striking; and her face was so lovely, that when, in the common cant of praise, she was called a beautiful girl, truth was less violently outraged than usually happens. Her skin was very brown, but, from its transparency, her complexion was uncommonly brilliant; her features were all good; her smile was sweet and attractive; and in her eyes, which were very dark, there was a life, a spirit, an eagerness, which could hardily be seen without delight. From willoughby their expression was at first held back, by the embarrassment which the remembrance of his assistance created. But when this passed away, when her spirits became collected, when she saw that to the perfect good breeding of the gentleman, he united frankness and vivacity, and above all, when she heard him declare, that of music and dancing he was passionately fond, she gave him such a look of approbation, as secured the largest share of his discourse to herself for the rest of his stay.-sense and sensibility



citaat:
"did you ever see such a skin? -- such smoothness! Such delicacy! -- and yet without being actually fair. --one cannot call her fair. It is a most uncommon complexion, with her dark eye-lashes and hair -- a most distinguishing complexion! So peculiarly the lady in it. --just colour enough for beauty."

"i have always admired her complexion," replied emma, archly; "but do not i remember the time when you found fault with her for being so pale? --when we first began to talk of her. --have you quite forgotten?"-emma

citaat:
“how very ill eliza bennet looks this morning, mr darcy," [caroline bingley] cried; "i never in my life saw any one so much altered as she is since the winter. She is grown so brown and coarse! Louisa and i were agreeing that we should not have known her again.”

however little mr darcy might have liked such an address, he contented himself with coolly replying that he perceived no other alteration than her being rather tanned -- no miraculous consequence of traveling in the summer.

"for my own part," she rejoined, "i must confess that i never could see any beauty in her. Her face is too thin; her complexion has no brilliancy; and her features are not at all handsome. Her nose wants character; there is nothing marked in its lines. Her teeth are tolerable, but not out of the common way; and as for her eyes, which have sometimes been called so fine, i never could perceive any thing extraordinary in them.”-pride and prejudice

http://www.jasa.net.au/jabooks2.htm#maid

Some discussion of the Rice portrait: a fake portrait.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_X6Isw4ybb4U/R_DdZlxDiwI/AAAAAAAAJ4I/-JkS3j6vDAc/s400/pose_with-greg_04.jpg

Kate Winslet in the role of Marianne Dashwood in Sense and Sensibility.



Miss Dashwood had a delicate complexion, regular features, and a remarkably pretty figure. Marianne was still handsomer. Her form, though not so correct as her sister's, in having the advantage of height, was more striking; and her face was so lovely, that when, in the common cant of praise, she was called a beautiful girl, truth was less violently outraged than usually happens. Her skin was very brown, but, from its transparency, her complexion was uncommonly brilliant; her features were all good; her smile was sweet and attractive; and in her eyes, which were very dark, there was a life, a spirit, an eagerness, which could hardily be seen without delight. From willoughby their expression was at first held back, by the embarrassment which the remembrance of his assistance created. But when this passed away, when her spirits became collected, when she saw that to the perfect good breeding of the gentleman, he united frankness and vivacity, and above all, when she heard him declare, that of music and dancing he was passionately fond, she gave him such a look of approbation, as secured the largest share of his discourse to herself for the rest of his stay.-sense and sensibility

Now does this description represent a white, blond women like Kate Winslet?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_FDvtEExJBOU/R-fxdCQF8mI/AAAAAAAAAvM/Sm4ZyrOMhaY/s320/Elton.jpg

Actor Dominic Rowan in the role van Mr. Elton described by Jane Austen as: "Mr. Elton, spruce, black and smiling.'




Emma by Jane Austen
Ch. 13


They arrived, the carriage turned, the step was let down, and Mr. Elton, spruce, black, and smiling, was with them instantly. Emma thought with pleasure of some change of subject. Mr. Elton was all obligation and cheerfulness; he was so very cheerful in his civilities indeed, that she began to think he must have received a different account of Harriet from what had reached her. She had sent while dressing, and the answer had been, "Much the same-- not better."


Can Mr. Rowan be described as 'black'?

Scheherazade
07-26-2010, 09:38 AM
W a r n i n g

Please discuss the topic, not each other,

and

respect everyone's right to share their views on the topic.



Off-topic posts or those contain personal/inflammatory comments will be removed as well as earning the posters infraction points.

Egmond Codfried
07-26-2010, 09:40 AM
http://www.jasa.net.au/images/cassportrait.jpg

[Cassandra Austen (1773-1845), or Jane Austen (1775-1817)



WAS JANE AUSTEN (1775-1817) BLACK?

By Egmond Codfried


The chief glory of nations is derived from their writers wrote Dr. Samuel Johnson (1708-1784). And many around the world deeply enjoy Jane Austen’s books and letters, of which the interpretation is constantly fine-tuned and made into movies and TV series. They study human behaviour and are satirical of human failings. Her style was based on Dr. Samuel Johnson’s: ‘cool, well-ordered, witty and incisive observations of life.’ But because Austen’s live straddled the decisive period around the French Revolution (1789-1795), her life, her books and surviving letters can also be mined for her ideas about the radical changing times. Although she wrote novels in the Romantic fashion: ‘The passion of Romantism did not inspire her.’ So I, because of my research interests, look for Austen’s ideas about the changing views on the emergence and the controversial role of Race. In this light, the fact that there is no credible portrait of Britain’s finest nineteen-century female writer should be considered as highly problematic. Jane Austen, properly read, might grow into our greatest activist in proclaiming the glory of Blacks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/abolition/images/black_prescence_gallery_08.jpg

[Scene by William Hogarth]

Austen is very insistent about the brown and very brown complexion and the special beauty of her heroines. There can be no doubt that she is writing about brown, very brown and black skinned persons belonging to the gentry and aristocracy. Henry Crawford in Mansfield Park (1814) is ‘absolutely plain, black and plain.’ His description can be compared to the Moor, always a Classical African, in many eighteen-century scenes by painter Wiiliam Hogarth (1697-1764), which show a Moor in the middle of a noble assembly. The Moor, often disguised as a servant, is one symbol of blue blood, and informs us about the true looks and high birth of the company. In Northanger Abbey (1818) two women talk about there favourite complexion in a man: ‘dark or fair.’ This is answered as: ‘I hardly know. I never much thought about it. Something between both, I think. Brown—not fair, and not very dark.’ The other woman prefers light eyes and likes ‘a sallow better then any other.’ Marianna Dashwood from Sense and Sensibility (1811) is Austen’s heroine who is ‘so lovely,’ ‘uncommonly brilliant’ and a delightful beauty: ‘that when, in the common cant of praise, she was called a beautiful girl, truth was less violently outraged then usually happens.’ But only after all this staggering praise we are told that: ‘Her skin was very brown.’ The most famous of Austen’s heroines, Eliza Bennet from Pride and Prejudice (1813) is described deprecatingly by her rival in love, Miss Caroline Bingley, as: ‘grown brown and coarse’ and ‘her complexion has no brilliancy.’ However, Mr. Darcy, their love interest; does not find any fault in any of that but perceives her as ‘rather tanned’ because of her ‘travelling in summer.’ From The Watsons, we learn about its heroine Emma Watson: ‘Her skin was very brown, but clear, smooth, and glowing.’

Austen is clearly not talking about whites who happen to be more or less tanned. In a letter to her sister Cassandra Austen she mentions a Mrs. Blount with: ‘Her Pink husband & Fat neck’ (20-21 November 1800). White skin is referred to as ‘Pink.’ She rather discusses the many shades we see among Blacks, in a way that Blacks today have abandoned. We consider this talk today as colorism, the dangerous antagonism between ‘good’ and ‘bad complexion.’ So naturally Emma Watson’s beauty does not ‘improve on acquaintance’ with everybody. Austen states: ‘Some saw no fault, and some no beauty.’ And: ‘With some her brown skin was the annihilation of every grace.’ But Miss Austen is clearly not fooling around when she discusses complexion. In Persuasion (1818) she never mentions brown or black complexion, but subtle yet with devastating force mentions ‘Gowland’ twice. She refers to real life Gowland’s Lotion, a skin-bleaching potion introduced in 1760. So it had grown into quite an institution in her lifetime. Although advertised as a panacea for many beauty problems, the real purpose was to bleach a black or brown skin by peeling with lead white, a corrosive ingredient. Lead white was also used during the Renaissance by Elizabeth I and Catherine de Medici, Queen of France, as a whitening make-up and bleaching agent named Venetian Ceruse or Spirits of Saturn. By the addition of mercury derivates, another corrosive substance, to Gowland’s, it also functions as our Botox today, as it paralyses the facial muscles and causes a youthful radiance, but an immobile facial expression. Both substances are poisonous and their constant and excessive use attracted censure by scientists. Austen ascribes the use of Gowland to Sir Walter Elliot, the father of the heroine Anne Elliot. Her personage had ‘an elegance of mind and sweetness of character.’ She had taken after her mother who was: ‘ an excellent woman, sensible and amiable.’ Austen introduced Sir Elliot as: ‘Handsome with the blessing of beauty,’ through Anne’s eyes, and as a ‘failing’ and ‘conceited, silly father.’ So we may assume Austen decidedly rejects the skin-bleaching practises by the black and brown Europeans in her books.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_giq9fYBHrwc/SqD4d9GYw_I/AAAAAAAACJs/y0YmvOukf24/s320/edef.jpg

[Eliza de Feuillide (1761-1813), Jane Austen's first cousin]

The brown beauty of Emma and Eliza and the very brown beauty of Marianne and Emma Watson are reflected in the six detailed descriptions of Jane Austen by her family and friends. Even towards the controversial nature of the views of black and brown looks that we can derive from her books. Austen is described as: ‘in complexion she was a clear brunette with a rich colour’ (1864) and: ‘- she had a bright but not a pink colour – a clear brown complexion’ and: ‘she had clear brown skin.’ But the language also becomes cryptic: ‘Her pure and eloquent blood spoke in her cheeks,’ and needs deciphering. Her niece Eliza de Feuillide (1761-1813) married a French aristocrat, who was guillotined during the French revolution (1789-1795), describes her own looks as: ‘add to all this a very share of Tan with which I have contrived to heighten the native brown of my Complexion, during a two years residence in the country.’ One takes notice of the self-deprecating tone of voice, which is also encountered in the works by contemporary Isabelle de Charrière (1740-1805). She described herself as: ‘She does not have the white hands, she knows this and even jokes about it, but its not a laughing matter.’(1764) And in Lettres écrites de Lausanne (1785) her heroine Cécile is described by her doting mother as: ‘she would have been beautiful if her throat was whither.’ Jane Austen died young from a still unidentified disease and she wrote in a final letter: ‘I’m recovering my Looks a little, which have been bad enough, black and white & every wrong colour.’(1817)

http://www.stewartsynopsis.com/Communiques/serin_23.gif

[Maria Jacoba van Goor (1687-1737), Isabelle de Charriere's grandmother]

The prevailing emphasise on brown and very brown skin in both her works and the way she herself was described, forces us to consider Jane Austen’s personal identity as Black. And there we are double crossed by the absence of an authenticated portrait which shows her own rich brown complexion and prettiness. In my ongoing research, my Blue Blood is Black Blood (1500-1789) Theory (2005), I have already encountered some so-called ‘missing’ portraits, which however do exist, or existing portraits which are not put on display in a museum because of African looks, or those portraits which show the same person who is described as ‘noir et basané’ (black brown) and ‘chimney sweeper’ as a blue eyed, white man. This scandalous falsehood we also encounter in the present day depictions of Austen’s personages by white actors and actresses. Marianne Dashwood, who was ‘very brown,’ is played by the lovely Miss Kate Winslet, who is blond and white. Miss Jennifer Ehle is white and has ethnic looks, derived from her Rumanian grandmother, but does not look ‘brown’ nor ‘’rather tanned’ as Austen describes Eliza Bennet.

Apparently, I’m not the only one who has discovered Jane Austen’s blackness. Yet where I welcome this as a valuable addition to my research after Blacks and coloured Europeans who were a dominating elite, others seek to deny, hide and submerge. They are denying Blacks the glory that derives from Black achievement and Black writers. The one un-authenticated portrait, which was acquired in 2000 by The Jane Austen Trust is supposed to show Cassandra Austen, but can be considered to be Jane’s, as it perfectly conforms to all her descriptions. Yet she will not be identified by them as Black because eurocentrism claims ‘There were no Blacks!’ Or what one might perceive as a Black is most likely a ‘Black Caucasian’ and not a ‘True Negro,’ they say. As some might know that according to eurocentrism Africans should be divided in African Caucasians, who might be pitch black but display no prognatism, and the ‘True Negroes’ who are prognastic. Apparently an unforgivable offence, we will see. And eurocentrism will blithely insist that there is no proof because we cannot employ biometric pliers to measure Austen’s skull to proof her a Negress. Or some easily disproved nonsense about Blacks who cannot be rendered in paintings. And their final obstacle is demanding from a researcher a Black ancestor, who must be named. And has to be a ‘True Negro’ who is a SSA, from below the ‘South of Sahara.’. Someone, just like Alexander Pushkin’s great-grandfather, Abraham Hannibal. Or Alexander Dumas’ father, General Dumas whose mother was an enslaved woman from Martinique. Yet Africa is just across the very narrow Straights of Gibraltar and Africans first arrived 43.000 years ago in Europe. Who knows their names? Whites, descendents of Albino’s who are in my experience just normal and healthy people who need a sunblock, are only 6000 years in Europe, coming from Central Asia. But mostly whites claim, unconvincingly, not to be the least interested in whether Jane Austen was white or Black, but rather focus on her work and personality. As if personality is not also informed by an ethnic identity. As if any writer can be studied without some reference to the personal context. Jane Austen also wrote about persons whose fortune was derived from slavery, as Isabelle de Charrière did and struggled with her own wealth. Fanny Price’s outburst against slavery is met with silence, in Mansfield Park, by the slaveholding Bertram family. Reverend George Austen (1731-1805), Jane’s father, acted as a trustee for a plantation on Antigua owned by Mr. Nibbs. Jane Austen was perfectly in the know about emerging views of Blacks. Does she refer to this when she cries out in a letter to her sister: ‘If I’m a wild Beast I cannot help it’ and ‘It is not my own fault.’(1813) The Moor, the Classical African who symbolised blue blood and black superiority was demoted to the base of the evolutionary ladder, now a creature between the superior white Human and Apes. This part also highlights the role of European Blacks in exploiting Africans in slavery. Yet eurocentrism blocks any dialogue or argument as if these views are dangerous and extremely pernicious and would threaten the very fundaments of the whole western civilisation. Any solicitation is met with rudeness and next dead silence. And even sabotage by library workers, as I have found out. Interesting is that on the Internet this portrait is shown out of focus which renders her prognastic lips fuzzy. And therein I find the reason for suppressing her portrait: Jane Austen displays clear Classical African features that make her Blackness undeniable.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/images/2008/02/080207163811.jpg

[Scientific Racism]

The suppression of Jane Austen’s true portrait had already started during her lifetime and apparently no public portrait was issued by her in 1811 when she debuted with Sense and Sensibility. She knew that her ‘peculiar charm,’ which pointed to ‘the purity and eloquence of her blood’, put her straight in the line of fire of revolutionaries who had violently brought down the Ancien Regime. This regime I have defined as Reversed Apartheid. Sadly, I sometimes have to point out to some that South African Apartheid was an unjust and a wholly evil system. Likewise Reversed Apartheid, but this Black and Coloured nation shaped Europe in the way we know it today. My research shows a great and universal scramble to amend ancestral portraits to hide Blackness, even to the point of defacement. Now I can safely push back this panic to at least around 1811. I have concluded that there most certainly were many portraits of Jane Austen adorning the walls of the stately homes of family and friends were she was received as a favourite relative and guest. Yet they displayed her Classical African features, a mark of ‘her pure blood,’ and thus became a liability. Black Europeans who considered their blackness as proof of their superiority over whites, who they derisively called ‘Pink’ or ‘t Graauw’ (the Grey’s), were bullied into abstaining the propagation of Black Supremacy. As total revisionism was aimed at, I seriously doubt any documents toward this directive will be found. They would have defeated the revisionist purpose.

http://www.waningmoon.com/publications/images/graphics/garnet-skin.jpg

[A book bound in human leather]

I consider the horrible practice of using white human skin for bookbinding’s by the Black nobility as further proof how some viewed their white subjects. But they still alluded to their black superiority with jewellery and imagery with Moors and what I perceive as cryptic phrases: ‘blue blood,’ ‘not the white hands’ or ‘the purity and eloquence of her blood.’ Austen’s heroines could have only been Blacks as she was Black and her pride was based on her blackness. She considered herself through her accomplishments as a writer combined with her blackness as a true noble. The titled aristocrats are often portrayed in her books as: ‘ill-bred’, ‘sickly and crossed,’ ‘cold,’ ‘insignificant’ and ‘plain and awkward.’ And even the final blow by sweet Anne Elliot: ‘they are nothing.’ Jane Austen who was Black did not renounce Black Superiority if it was enforced by personal brilliance by applying ones talents to become accomplished. Mr. Darcy, the ideal hero who ravaged Eliza Bennet’s heart, was extremely rich, but not a titled noble. His fortune was achieved by trade, thus by accomplishment. And his housekeeper said: `He is the best landlord, and the best master,’ Austen’s family and publishers would have been perceived as promoters of Ancien Regime values and would have placed themselves in great danger if they would have promoted her portrait. Even Austen herself might have experienced ridicule, hatred, violence and harsh rejection based on her Black appearance. Yet through restorations the nobility slashed its way back into power but was finally subdued in 1848. And only then whites came into power, whitewashed European history, and claimed the glory like any conqueror would usurp the spoils of war.

http://www.cosmeticsandskin.com/aba/images/alix_older.jpg

[Queen Alexandra (1844-1925)(1923) at 79 years of age]

The absence of a portrait of Jane Austen and the portrayal of her personages by white actresses should be viewed as the ongoing revisionism of history. Any European museum should be regarded as a Church of Revisionism because they show whitened copies, over painted authentic portraits and outright fake images of the black kings and nobles. A practice facilitated by these persons themselves by issuing whitened portraits. A look they did achieved in real life with white face paint and bleaching crèmes. It seems that the views from whites about Blacks were frozen in 1760, when nationhood was hence identified by colour. Queen Alexandra (1844-1925) (1902-1910) was famous for her beauty in advanced age, achieved by a practice called enamelling. She preferred an application of paint which made her pink all over. This technique also prescribed the careful application of blue pigments to the temple veins to heighten the illusion of a translucent, super white skin. Her rather lifeless and ethereal look suggests paralysed facial muscles by mercury derivates, as well. This miraculous vision of beauty was then further enhanced with mysterious veils that blurred the view. Yet there are photographs which show her and her mother, Queen Louise of Denmark, as brown and frizzy haired. Her husband, Edward VII was a son of Queen Victoria, who was a granddaughter of Queen Charlotte-Sophie whose ‘true mulatto’ and ‘brown’ looks were deemed ‘propagandistic’ and gave rise to many comments. Some over painted portraits of the nobility show a solid pink face, and excessive, gruesome blue veins in the face and on the hands. This undoubtedly gave rise to the nonsense about the nobility to be very white and that blue blood meant blue veins showing. It could only be understood that frightened and indoctrinated coloured Europeans took to protecting themselves from the sun with umbrellas, veils and gloves, as Blacks tan easily.

This article should be understood in connection with my Blue Blood is Black Blood (1500-1789) thread elsewhere on this site and in Google. Any writer writes less then he knows; for sake of brevity, yet all my conclusions are based in facts and argument. Voltaire was accused by his detractors of ‘inventing his own facts.’ What are facts? I reject eurocentrism which is supposedly based in ‘fact’ and ‘empirism’ yet its a fake and evil science to hide the traumatic fact that Europe was a Black Civilisation, with Blacks despotically oppressing whites. Nobody observed Evolution, no one reproduced Evolution, and there are many ‘Missing Links,’ yet to Evolutionist, the Evolution Theory is a fact, as it better explains nature and human descent then Genesis’s Believers can. No one should believe anything; they should research everything by Google. The more sources to confirm a fact, the better. I will post more sources and welcome serious questions from readers. Whites seem to perceive Blacks as biased and therefore not capable to research these matters. But whites do not seem to suffer the same bias when researching the same matter. How come?

Egmond Codfried
The Hague
June 2010

dafydd manton
07-26-2010, 09:45 AM
Are not those last three sentences a bit sweeping, not to say inflammatory? Racist, even?

Egmond Codfried
07-26-2010, 10:46 AM
JAMES LANGFORD NIBBS (1738-1795), was Jane Austen’s (1775-1817) godfather.

This source relates to Mansfield Park.

On the site there is a portrait of William KNIBB (1803-1845.) His skin looks very dark.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/John_Burnet_William_Knibb_John_Scolble.jpg/240px-John_Burnet_William_Knibb_John_Scolble.jpg

Another portrait of William Knibb

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Knibb



JAMES LANGFORD NIBBS 1738-1795

Antiguan 'Gentleman' Sugar plantation owner

You might like to view his family tree in conjunction with reading this item.


His full pedigree resides at the College of Arms but a copy appears in Vere Langford OLIVER's book on "THE HISTORY OF THE ISLAND OF ANTIGUA, One of the Leeward Caribbee in the West Indies, from the first Settlement in 1635 to the Present Time." Published by Mitchell and Hughes, 1896. The late Graham NIBBS located this book and kindly told me about it.


I've put together as much as I can from the book and various sources.


I did commission The York Herald at The College of Arms to carry out a basic search for me and that's how I established that James was granted a Coat of Arms on 13 Oct 1759. He had returned from Antigua and his then address was given as St John's College, Oxford. Later, he lived at Beauchamps House near Tiverton, Devon.

Brian NIBBS of Jersey very kindly paid for a drawing of ‘the full achievement of Armorial Bearings'. It's a representation of this Coat of Arms (copied here) that appears in the top left hand corner of the website pages.


The NIBBS family were sugar plantation owners in Antigua at the time. I learned originally from Lester PARRY that Jane AUSTEN's father was at Oxford with James Langford NIBBS. He became a trustee of the estate and taught a son George NIBBS, who lived for a time with the AUSTEN family at Steventon Rectory. George was in fact a godson to Jane's father as was Jane's elder brother to James Langford NIBBS. It is therefore most likely that the sugar plantation referred to in 'Mansfield Park' is none other than the NIBBS property.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~knibbetc/page3d.htm

kiki1982
07-26-2010, 10:47 AM
Aside from really Jane Austen, if there were so many black people, how come that Europe is not at least mulatto? There are more white people than black people or mulatto. So if so many people were black, even kings, queens and what-not, how is it possible that we are not all mulatto, or are we all the result of recessive genes coming together? Supposedly no dominant gene met a recessive one then. And it rarely occurs that two white people get a black baby, which, given the abundance of blacks in the past, should happen more, then.

Seriously, Jane Austen's portrait is certainly white. Most of the people you actually take as examples wore wigs, so did not have their own hair on paintings, and lived in times when curling one's hair was in fashion. It actually never went out of fashion until the 20ieth century.

Egmond Codfried
07-26-2010, 10:51 AM
Aside from really Jane Austen, if there were so many black people, how come that Europe is not at least mulatto? There are more white people than black people or mulatto. So if so many people were black, even kings, queens and what-not, how is it possible that we are not all mulatto, or are we all the result of recessive genes coming together? Supposedly no dominant gene met a recessive one then. And it rarely occurs that two white people get a black baby, which, given the abundance of blacks in the past, should happen more, then.

Seriously, Jane Austen's portrait is certainly white. Most of the people you actually take as examples wore wigs, so did not have their own hair on paintings, and lived in times when curling one's hair was in fashion. It actually never went out of fashion until the 20ieth century.

Thank you for posting, but kindly let me know if you agree with my statement, (or disagree and why?), in my article that both her novel personages and her personal description point to people of colour. It's no use to go on responding to your comments if I do not know your views on these sources. There should be a measure of integrity in any discussion. My approach is wholly rational. And I welcome people challenging my findings, my findings that is not; the hysteria which seem to grip some as soon as blackness is discussed.

kiki1982
07-26-2010, 10:55 AM
They do not. If one is ignorant, they do.

Is that clear?

Learn and thou wilt be enlightened.

Egmond Codfried
07-26-2010, 11:50 AM
http://www.publicbookshelf.com/romance/northanger-abby/born-heroine

Catherine Morland, the heroine from Nothanger Abbey is described as "sallow' meaning light brown. Her strong features were Classical African features.


A family of ten children will be always called a fine family, where there are heads and arms and legs enough for the number; but the Morlands had little other right to the word, for they were in general very plain, and Catherine, for many years of her life, as plain as any.

She had a thin awkward figure, a sallow skin without colour, dark lank hair, and strong features--


I found some interesting reverences to ‘rouging up’ in Eliza de Feuillide’s letters to her cousin Phylly in discussing Marie Antoinette’s beauty. De Feuillide claims that Marie Antoinette has the whitest, loveliest hands she ever saw. She rejects Phylly’s idea that it was due to ‘art.’

http://www.jasa.net.au/books/lefaye2.htm

In Persuasion Sir Walter Elliot uses Gowland’s, a skin-bleaching lotion, in all the months of spring. And he advises Lady Russel to ‘rouge’ because apparently she is not fit to be seen’ in the morning and hides from visitors.



I found some interesting reverences to ‘rouging up’ in Eliza de Feuillide’s letters to her cousin Phylly in discussing Marie Antoinette’s beauty. De Feuillide claims that Marie Antoinette has the whitest, loveliest hands she ever saw. She rejects Phylly’s idea that it was due to ‘art.’

http://www.jasa.net.au/books/lefaye2.htm

In Persuasion Sir Walter Elliot uses Gowland’s, a skin-bleaching lotion, in all the months of spring. And he advises Lady Russel to ‘rouge’ because apparently she is not fit to be seen’ in the morning and hides from visitors.

OrphanPip
07-26-2010, 12:00 PM
Sallow doesn't mean light brown, it means sickly, pale, or yellow tinged.

Thus, the "without colour" that follows "sallow skin."

I think we've covered your misinterpretation of 18th and 19th century English before.

hillwalker
07-26-2010, 12:48 PM
My question would be 'Who gives a sh*t anyway what colour Jane Austen was?!' - is this thread not a case of reversed-racism???

Emil Miller
07-26-2010, 05:16 PM
is this thread not a case of reversed-racism???

Most certainly.

MarkBastable
07-26-2010, 05:22 PM
I'd say there's no such thing as reversed racism. Racism is racism - straightforward and up and down - whichever race is being generalised about, and regardless of whether the generalisation is pro or anti.

On top of which, Eg, no one's saying that there have not been black people in Europe for centuries. They're just saying that Jane Austen wasn't one of them.

dafydd manton
07-26-2010, 05:49 PM
Again!

Emil Miller
07-27-2010, 05:26 AM
I'd say there's no such thing as reversed racism. Racism is racism - straightforward and up and down - whichever race is being generalised about, and regardless of whether the generalisation is pro or anti.


Yes Sir,
May we go home now Sir.

MarkBastable
07-27-2010, 06:25 AM
May we go home now Sir.

I thought you'd never ask. Please do.

Lokasenna
07-27-2010, 06:42 AM
In many ways, trying to seize Austen as a secretly coloured genius does a disservice to some of the great literary masters that Africa and the West Indies have produced: Wole Soyinka comes to mind as a great example, even though I'll admit to being no expert on African literature.

What purpose then does it serve to derive some form of conspiracy around Austen? Who would perpetrate such a thing, both then and now? Afro-Carribean literature is no poorer for not containing her.

For the purposes of contrast, I shall suggest that Milton was Greek:


"Thee I re-visit now with bolder wing,
Escap't the Stygian Pool, though long detain'd
In that obscure sojourn,"

See, he's spent a lot of time in the River Styx, and he's familiar with its classical function - he must be a Greek!

I also suggest that Chaucer might actually be an alien! Look at this description of him by Host:


And saide thus; "What man art thou?" quoth he;
"Thou lookest as thou wouldest find an hare,
For ever on the ground I see thee stare.

"Approache near, and look up merrily.
Now ware you, Sirs, and let this man have place.
He in the waist is shapen as well as I;
This were a puppet in an arm t'embrace
For any woman small and fair of face.
He seemeth elvish by his countenance,
For unto no wight doth he dalliance.

He appears 'elvish' - a sure sign that he isn't human!

I'm currently also working a theory that Shakespeare was an eskimo - I'll get back to you when I find proof!

Scheherazade
07-27-2010, 06:53 AM
I'll get back to you when I find proof!Seek and ye shall find...

dafydd manton
07-27-2010, 09:19 AM
Lokasenna, we'll only be convinced if you can find a photo of Chaucer to prove it.

High fantasy and curious bisinesse
Fro day to day gan in the sould impresse....

Lokasenna
07-27-2010, 09:31 AM
https://road-trip304.wikispaces.com/file/view/chaucer.jpg/56453884/chaucer.jpg

Look how squat and tiny Chaucer is, and look at the way he's clothed - I see an obvious parrallel:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_MUVhT9Hz9EE/SaQ4cHTXFMI/AAAAAAAAAR0/U-qUkcEvPDI/s400/et_l.jpg

dafydd manton
07-27-2010, 09:47 AM
OK. I'm convinced! :smile5:

MarkBastable
07-27-2010, 09:54 AM
Actually, all joking aside, in that picture, Geoff does look kinda...well...dusky. I mean, you wouldn't call that white, would you?

dafydd manton
07-27-2010, 10:27 AM
Pity we can't see the hair, for confirmation.

kiki1982
07-27-2010, 03:07 PM
You see! He had really really short hair like the people in Africa. That is certain proof!

minstrelbard
07-27-2010, 04:16 PM
Actually, all joking aside, in that picture, Geoff does look kinda...well...dusky. I mean, you wouldn't call that white, would you?

Are you saying that Jane Austen was Chaucer's mother? Or that you, possibly, might be a character in one of her novels? Bastable Park, perhaps?

dafydd manton
07-27-2010, 04:26 PM
If I've read this correctly, Jane was heiress to the company that gave us the Marina (sea-faring) and the Montego, which speaks for itself. The inference is obvious.

Lokasenna
07-27-2010, 04:28 PM
I seem to have started something... hmm...

Incidentally, I've just noticed that Chaucer is making the "E.T go home" hand gesture as well...

dafydd manton
07-27-2010, 04:53 PM
Say no more, squire, say no more, nudge nudge, wink wink.

hillwalker
07-27-2010, 05:30 PM
I remember hearing that Henry Ford allowed all his customers to choose any colour Model T they wanted, as long as it was black. I did not realise the same applied to Austens.

dafydd manton
07-27-2010, 06:06 PM
Continuing the thought as to whether Miss Austen was black, unless there were some pretty weird genetics going on in the family, I've found portraits of Henry Austen (brother) Admiral Charles Austen (brother) and Admiral Francis Austen (brother). Anybody care to guess what colour they were? Yup, you're right, they are all as Caucasian as you could shake a stick at. (You might also reason that a black Admiral in the Royal Navy would cpo for a certain amount of attention, as was the case with Jack Punch, described then as mulatto)

Just after I posted that last comment, a thought crossed my mind. Why the heck do I care? Who gives a monkey's anyway? Why am I bothering? I'm off for a bevvy!

Egmond Codfried
07-28-2010, 11:46 AM
Sallow doesn't mean light brown, it means sickly, pale, or yellow tinged.

Thus, the "without colour" that follows "sallow skin."

I think we've covered your misinterpretation of 18th and 19th century English before.

As i'm not a native english speaker I consulted a dictionary

1 sallow; een type of tree
2 sickly yellow, pale
3 sallow; a noun.

Yet from her books, which to me are the supreme sources, its used as the name for a 'fixed' light skincolour. Mrs. Ferrars, Carherine Morland and Mr. Henry Tilney are sallows. Jane Fairfax is very lightly coloured: a sallow as well.
Both Mr. Elton and Mr. Henry Crawford are 'black.' Crawford's sister Mary Crawford is very brown, with lively dark eyes. So there can be no doubt Jane Austen means 'black' as a complexion, not black hair.

Jane Austen is described as brown
Her personages are black, brown, very brown and sallow
She has them intermarrying
Austen discusses skin bleaching, rouging up (painting oneself white) and powdering of the hair.

About Emma Watson who was very brown: some saw no fault and some no beauty. While for others her brown skin was the annihilation of every grace

Her niece Eliza de Feullide speaks about her own 'native brown colour.'

The Maitland girls, one becomes Austen sister in law she described as 'with brown skins and a good deal of nose. According to eliza one married an East Indian man.

=====================================


Jane Austen is compared to Shakespeare, the writer who gave us Othello

http://cla.calpoly.edu/~dschwart/engl204/Shakespeare1

William Shakespeare: A Black European: member of an intermarrying fixed mulatto race with some looking more African, Asian or white.

You have Blacks and you have the image that whites have given of Blacks. Blacks were the first people, the oldest human bones are found in East Africa. Black civilisation already exists 10.000 years. Black Slavery only existed for the past 500 years. 10.000-500 is 9.500. I like to discuss these 9.500 years when Blacks brought culture to many parts of the world. If you folks don't know this, then its because this information is kept from you. But lets not digress, even dear Jane Austen wrote about Blacks, was described as Black and I cannot get any of you to aknowledge what Austen wrote herself. When one visits the South of Spain one is struck by the closeness of Africa to Europe.

=================================================

http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&source=hp&q=white+obama&meta=&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

Images of a whitenend Obama: to show the principle of whitening portraits of a person who is described as black or comes from blacks, so we know he should be black in looks.
If they would make a Obama museums in a hundred years when all the people who saw him are dead, they could present him as white, showing all these fake, white portraits.

================================================== =====

I have looked into 'Jane Austen and the body' and 'Jane Austen and Darwin' and find these works utterly useless.

Jane Austen and the Enlightenment is much better, still misguided. She was against the nobility, and favoured the gentry, which in Holland is the patrician class. But mostly a realist and accepting of the new configuration after the French revolution. She wrote self-help and self-improvement books for blacks like herself, and warned them to pay attention in order not to loose even more. Blackness she equated with health. Whites she called pink. She derrises Mrs Blount for her pink husband. Emma setting out to improve the white Miss Harriet smith is the story of how blacks gave civilisation to whites.

kiki1982
07-28-2010, 11:51 AM
Ooooh, white caucasian people with dark eyes do not exist! They are all wearing contact lenses, surely. :p

dafydd manton
07-28-2010, 12:03 PM
"Of a dark-haired and dark-eyed people, with pale skin." The Welsh!! An ancient Celtic race. And don't you dare post a photograph of somebody just up from Merthyr Main pit!



Just a small, almost tiny little linguistic point, almost too insignificant to mention, but Rouging up. From the French rouge. Red. To redden. With beet juice, strawberries, cranberries, and nowadays cosmetics. Rouge. Red. Not white.

Egmond Codfried
07-28-2010, 12:47 PM
Skin Bleaching

These sources are in regard to Persuasion where Austen writes about the bleaching of skin. If these people were white why would they use white face paint and poisonous bleaches? Even powdering their hair.
Skin whitening, practiced by (some) people of colour, through history. This practice remains controversial among coloured folks, and products are never advertised as skin-bleach.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_whitening

Gowland’s

http://hibiscus-sinensis.com/regency/skincare.htm

http://www.cleopatrasboudoir.com/apps/blog/categories/show/623804-cosmetic-history

Venetian Ceruse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_ceruse

http://www.cleopatrasboudoir.com/apps/blog/show/3533135-venetian-ceruse-a-skin-whitener

Rouging is a euphemism for ‘enamelling’

http://cosmeticsandskin.com/aba/queen-alexandra-face-enamelling.php

Persuasion: Sir Walter Elliot recommends rouging to Lady Russel, who apparently is ‘not fit to be seen’ in the morning.

Jane Austen in a letter to Cassandra writes about ‘the Adulteress’ who is rouged and looks stupid for doing so.

Lokasenna
07-28-2010, 12:53 PM
I'm sorry, but are you also insinuating that Shakespeare was black? Othello is hardly a love letter to the moorish race...

Egmond Codfried
07-28-2010, 01:26 PM
This source relates to Mansfield Park.

On the site there is a portrait of William KNIBB (1803-1845.) His skin looks very dark.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/John_Burnet_William_Knibb_John_Scolble.jpg/240px-John_Burnet_William_Knibb_John_Scolble.jpg

Another portrait of William Knibb

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Knibb

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~knibbetc/page3d.htm

Oxford DNB Vol 3

"William Knibbs: 'He frequentley proclaimed his identity with black people and attended the ant-slavery convention in England in 1840, speaking again on behalf of the freedman.''

I could not make out how William Knibbs relates to James Langford Nibbs, Jane Austen's godfather who owned an Antiguan plantation. But they both appear on the same source which gives the family name as (K)Nibbs, with Jane Austen.

The portrait shows a brown man, who was born in England. And he fought against slavery, giving his identity as 'with the blacks.'

===========================

http://janeausteninvermont.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/rice-portrait.jpg

Oxford DNB Vol. 2, p. 973
Lemma: Jane Austen
About the Rice-portrait

"The eyes are brown and rather narrow, the skin typically brunette but perhaps powdered, the nose straight, the mouth small. This means that the girls features accord with Austen's own description of the colouring and features of her heroines, all of whom are brunettes.'

Jane writes: sallow, brown, very brown and black.
This piece aknowledge a connection between Austen's brown skin and that of her heroines, but does not put these fact in the perspective of etnicity, 'race.", or class.

=================================


One wonders if these people really read anything written by Jane Austen. And where is the humility, as nobody knows everything. I'm quietly printing sources to be able to form a reconstruction and work with what Jane Austen herself brings to the table. What does she has to say about colour?

Well, she invites us to look at colour, and the many shades and types of blacks and coloureds. In Emma, Mr. Elton is:

"handsome',
even 'pretty,'
'had not his equal for beauty and agreeableness,'
'a very good sort of man,' 'and a very respectable vicar of Highbury,'
'he knows he is a very handsome man,'
'a young man might be very safely recommanded to take mr. Elton as model,'
'quite the gentleman himself, and without low connections,'
'he was known to have independent property. '

This is long before Austen writes:

'Mr. Elton, spruce, black and smiling.'

kiki1982
07-28-2010, 01:50 PM
As I said, {edit} white people did not think they were white enough. If one works outside as a farmer, for example, then one becomes tanned. Mind, not 'black', just tanned. Just look at professional cyclists nowadays: they are all brown up to the middle of their upper legs and arms, just because they are continuously driving around in the blazing sun.

So, as this has been established... Historically, people who had money had to show it somehow. Apart from doing that with jewellery and the like, they could also do that by having white skin, whiter than white, even if they were caucasian and white on comparison with real blacks. At least they had to look whiter than the average farmer of all people. The ideal was almost marble white. Unhealthy and impossible, but they did their best: carrying parasols around, wearing gloves at all times, not getting out walking, like Elizabeth is reproached for in P&P. But indeed, that whiter than white skin colour is unattainable, because it would probably involve sitting indoors all day and all night. Not possible. So, they resulted in bleaching.

Already the Greeks did it, with lead white of all things! Later also rice powder came into use mixed with fatty things in order to make it an easily applicable cream. In Elizabethen times certainly, along with other make-up like rouge.
You do not need to be black to want to bleach your skin, my friend. Or do you think that Dita von Tease is not actually white caucasian, albeit a little powdered in forties' style?

hillwalker
07-28-2010, 01:55 PM
I think your mission is totally misguided.

Unless you can actually interview Jane Austen in order to ascertain that she was in fact referring to the colour of Mr.Elton's skin your assumptions are rather flawed to say the least.
Also, since photography was not available until the 20th century, making statements that someone's skin looks a little browner than white based on paintings that discolour over age anyway is ludicrous. On that basis one might be led to believe anything.

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 05:03 AM
I think your mission is totally misguided.

I'm still waiting to see any proof that you actually read Miss Austen and a few scholarly books about Austen, to determine whether there is any merit in this rude assertion.


Unless you can actually interview Jane Austen in order to ascertain that she was in fact referring to the colour of Mr.Elton's skin your assumptions are rather flawed to say the least.
Also, since photography was not available until the 20th century, making statements that someone's skin looks a little browner than white based on paintings that discolour over age anyway is ludicrous. On that basis one might be led to believe anything.

http://thesituationist.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/white-face-black-face.jpg

Dear, off course it would have been wonderful if we could interview dear Jane Austen herself. But alas, she died very young, and even during her professional period was very shy. What we have are her books, her letters and the remembrance by family and friends. Between these few sources a lot of information can be distilled. By comparing her work with that of her contemporaries, by comparing her works with the historical facts of her era like wars, French Revolution, The Terror, colonialism, slavery, women liberation. To be able to do this one has to know something about history.

The way Jane Austen presents colour is straightforward. Mr. Henry Crawford is black and plain and his sister is very brown, and very lovely. But Mr. Crawford's looks grow on the Bertram ladies and both fall madly in love. Even so that Miss Bertram, six months after her marriage with Mr. Rushworth, elopes with Mr. Crawford. If there is some strange hidden symbolism in the blackness of Mr. Crawford and his dark brown sister, we have to dig it out.

There is reference to colour in her letters, as well in those of her cousin De Feuillide. So as they spoke about colour in their real life, Austen wrote about skin colour in the virtual world of her books. There is a very pointed reference to Gowland’s, a bleaching lotion. We only know about coloureds who use bleaches, we never heard about white people bleaching themselves to be even whiter. People who make this claim should proof this with sources. There is reference to ‘rouging’ in her book Persuasion, an euphemism for enamelling, or painting oneself white before adding rouge and blue pigments to the temple veins. I do not see why and how whites would paint themselves white. Blacks painting themselves white is another thing. And more interesting if we learn from science that it was restricted to the highest nobility.

The books I mention here are a few of the ones I have been reading, because nobody is born with any knowledge. Yet some knowledge is faulty. Like the first biographical notices by Jane Austen’s brother Henry and her nephew James Edward Austen Leigh were manifested untruthful. They, in accordance with the family choose to give the world a wrong idea about the relative they loved and admired so much. Why? What were they hiding, and why? How disclosure would have hurt her remembrance? and why.

Personally I take my clue from her nephew who writes that people who understand what Austen’s books are really about have ‘true abilities.’ Her books are the test to determine who knows, and who does not know. Perhaps I may add; those who do not want to know.

================================================== ======

A few sources, secondary literature about Jane Austen

1. Jane Austen's 'outlandish cousin' : the life and letters of Eliza de Feuillide / Le Faye, Deirdre
Leen status: Bij lener; Retourdatum: 20-08-2010; Signatuur: 7154 H 41; Verlengingen: 1;

2. Jane Austen and the war of ideas / Butler, Marilyn
Band info: 1975; Leen status: Bij lener; Retourdatum: 20-08-2010; Signatuur: 7324 D 34; Verlengingen: 1;

3. Absent voices : the story of writing systems in the West / Altman, Rochelle
Leen status: Bij lener; Retourdatum: 20-08-2010; Signatuur: MFG 332; Verlengingen: 1;

4. Jane Austen : her homes and her friends / Hill, Constance
Band info: 1902; Leen status: Bij lener; Retourdatum: 20-08-2010; Signatuur: 814 A 26; Verlengingen: 1;

5. Mansfield Park / Austen, Jane
Leen status: Bij lener; Retourdatum: 20-08-2010; Signatuur: AFI 347; Verlengingen: 1;

6. Jane Austen / Lynch, Jack
Leen status: Bij lener; Retourdatum: 20-08-2010; Signatuur: 14004593; Verlengingen: 1;

7. Jane Austen in context / Todd, Janet
Leen status: Bij lener; Retourdatum: 22-08-2010; Signatuur: AFI 345;

8. Jane Austen and representations of Regency England / Sales, Roger
Leen status: Bij lener; Retourdatum: 22-08-2010; Signatuur: ACX 758;

9. Jane Austen and the Enlightenment / Knox-Shaw, Peter
Leen status: Bij lener; Retourdatum: 25-08-2010; Signatuur: FAN 574;

10. Orientalism once more (2003) / Said, Edward
; Signatuur: 2267013;

In Mansfield Park dear Fanny Price seems to suffer from ill health which also affects her emotional responses. Still she is not as worse as her aunt, Lady Bertram who is really a kind of harmless imbecile, or her own mother, Mrs. Price who seems somewhat detached from real life.

My novel idea is that the personage of Fanny Price, up to a point, pays tribute to two of Jane Austen's family members who were mentally disabled.

For I read in Oxford DNB Vol. 3 p.958:

Cassandra Austen Leigh, Jane’s mother had a brother Thomas Leigh (1747-1821) [who] was born with a mental disability and cared for outside the family.'

Jane's brother "George Hastings (1766-1838), was epileptic and at six was sent to join Cassandra's brother Thomas.'

It would only be fitting that family minded Jane would include references to all her family members, the dashing one's as well the less dashing one's, in her books.

MarkBastable
07-29-2010, 05:36 AM
Do you think that anyone reading this thread is going to slap their forehead and say, "My God - it's all so obvious now. Jane Austen was black!"

Even if you're right, you're wasting your time. I'd say that you've put your case and it's probably best now to leave it at that.

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 05:40 AM
I had noticed that no mention is made of Hitler, a swarthy little so-and-so. Nor Napoleon. Nor that most notorious of pirates, Black Bart (Barti Ddu), so called because of his black heart, NOT the colour of his skin. He came from Cei Newydd, which is hardly a stronghold of the Moorish nations. Seems to lack balance, so I shall hold off the forehead slapping for a bit, if you don't mind, Mark.

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 06:04 AM
Mansfield Park

Black characters played by white actors.

http://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/mansfieldpark/images/char_lg_mary.jpg

Mary Crawford


Mansfield Park
Chapter 5
The young people were pleased with each other from the first. On each side there was much to attract, and their acquaintance soon promised as early an intimacy as good manners would warrant. Miss Crawford’s beauty did her no disservice with the Miss Bertrams. They were too handsome themselves to dislike any woman for being so too, and were almost as much charmed as their brothers with her lively dark eye, clear brown complexion, and general prettiness. Had she been tall, full formed, and fair, it might have been more of a trial: but as it was, there could be no comparison; and she was most allowably a sweet, pretty girl, while they were the finest young women in the country.


http://www.pemberley.com/etext/MP/chapter5.htm


http://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/mansfieldpark/images/char_lg_henry.jpg

Henry Crawford



Her brother was not handsome: no, when they first saw him he was absolutely plain, black and plain; but still he was the gentleman, with a pleasing address. The second meeting proved him not so very plain: he was plain, to be sure, but then he had so much countenance, and his teeth were so good, and he was so well made, that one soon forgot he was plain; and after a third interview, after dining in company with him at the Parsonage, he was no longer allowed to be called so by anybody. He was, in fact, the most agreeable young man the sisters had ever known, and they were equally delighted with him. Miss Bertram’s engagement made him in equity the property of Julia, of which Julia was fully aware; and before he had been at Mansfield a week, she was quite ready to be fallen in love with.


The movie: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/mansfieldpark/characters.html

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 06:15 AM
http://www.carlislearts.org/images/hyacinth.jpg


The son of James Austen;James Edward wrote a poem in memory of his aunt Jane; "To the memory of Miss jane Austen.' The opening line struck me as a reference to Austens dark skin.

'The purple floweret of the Val[...]'

http://www.google.nl/images?um=1&hl=nl&tbs=isch:1&ei=OlNRTLeGBMyNOObU0b0E&q=purple+flower&start=60&sa=N

According to Frank Snowden in Blacks in Antiquity (1971) a lover compared his mistress with a purple hyacint.


source: Jane's Fame by Claire Harman

Lokasenna
07-29-2010, 06:21 AM
And when Shakespeare wrote "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?", he was of course thinking of June 12th, which was rather pleasent really...

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 06:31 AM
http://cdn.nextsmallthings.com/coolchaser.com/thumb-18992116.jpg

There are many interesting ways to read Jane Austen! Terry Castle's reading I cannot confirm, as I'm not a lesbian myself, but I have often wondered why Miss Harriet Smith would have to spent the night at Hartfield with Emma, who was lovelyness itself.


NEWS RELEASE

08/16/95

CONTACT: Stanford University News Service (415) 723-2558

Terry Castle stands by Jane Austen review
In the August daze of Britain's "silly season," when the Parliament and courts are in recess and the Royals aren't doing their bit for naughty headlines, the press of Fleet Street annually mount a watch for scandalous stories. Reality is checked at the door.

This summer it was Terry Castle, Stanford professor of English, who landed in the tabloid snares with her review of a newly annotated edition of Jane Austen's letters. When her front-page essay was published in the "London Review of Books" Aug. 3 -- bearing the headline "Was Jane Austen Gay?" -- reporters leapt on Castle's subtle depiction of Austen's relationship with her older sister, Cassandra.

Although the review commented widely on the family gossip and trivia of everyday life that are found in Austen's letters, headline writers zeroed in on a few select phrases. Castle's references to the "passionate nature of the sibling bond [the letters] commemorate," her suggestion that Austen's physical descriptions of women could be read as "a kind of homophilic fascination," and her exploration of the "underlying eros of the sister-sister bond" were seized upon by reporters for the Daily Telegraph, Independent and Observer. Reuters also ran with the story, and soon editors from Time and Newsweek were on the phone to Castle, to ask her if she'd said Jane Austen was a lesbian.

http://news.stanford.edu/pr/95/950816Arc5119.html

http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&source=hp&q=was+jane+austen+lesbian&meta=&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 06:43 AM
For now I consider Emma, Austen’s best novel. A culmination of her art and a summing up of all her ideas already raised and alluded to in her other works. It’s an allegory and refers to Black History. What mistakes were made, how Blacks lost their position, and what the new configuration is.

Miss Jane Fairfax represents the arts and the writers and is like Jane Austen herself, as a writer. But Emma has Jane Austen’s looks, -the true hazel eye-, but Jane Fairfax is a sallow. In this context 'peculiar' means that she had 'classical African' features.

EMMA

Volume III
Chapter XVIII


Emma was delighted, and only wanted him to go on in the same style; but his mind was the next moment in his own concerns and with his own Jane, and his next words were,

"Did you ever see such a skin?--such smoothness! such delicacy!-- and yet without being actually fair.--One cannot call her fair. It is a most uncommon complexion, with her dark eye-lashes and hair-- a most distinguishing complexion! So peculiarly the lady in it.-- Just colour enough for beauty."

"I have always admired her complexion," replied Emma, archly; "but do not I remember the time when you found fault with her for being so pale?-- When we first began to talk of her.--Have you quite forgotten?"

"Oh! no--what an impudent dog I was!--How could I dare--"

http://www.classicreader.com/book/24/54/

kiki1982
07-29-2010, 06:45 AM
http://www.carlislearts.org/images/hyacinth.jpg


The son of James Austen;James Edward wrote a poem in memory of his aunt Jane; "To the memory of Miss jane Austen.' The opening line struck me as a reference to Austens dark skin.

'The purple floweret of the Val[...]'

http://www.google.nl/images?um=1&hl=nl&tbs=isch:1&ei=OlNRTLeGBMyNOObU0b0E&q=purple+flower&start=60&sa=N

According to Frank Snowden in Blacks in Antiquity (1971) a lover compared his mistress with a purple hyacint.


source: Jane's Fame by Claire Harman

Well naturally, that is quite logic as a hyacinth of old is a symbol for constancy and blue ones in particular for sincerity. Let's hope his lover was constant then... Has nothing to do with being black whatsoever.

As if that is an argument.

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 07:07 AM
All scholarly texts about Jane Austen mention the philosophers

http://www.meirieu.com/images/ROUSSEAU%20.jpg

Rousseau: described by James Boswell as: ‘a genteel black man in an Armenian coat.’'

He took to this type of great coat to hide a drainage system, catheter, for his urinary complaint.

http://www.bcc.cuny.edu/history/His10/Course/voltaire.jpg

Voltaire: many images show him as black skinned, though without classical African features. But we do not what his family looked like.

http://imagecache6.allposters.com/LRG/16/1637/PA5GD00Z.jpg

D’Alembert: notice the classical African feautures. This image is whitened.

MarkBastable
07-29-2010, 07:14 AM
http://imagecache6.allposters.com/LRG/16/1637/PA5GD00Z.jpg

D’Alembert: notice the classical African feautures. This image is whitened.

What?

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 07:23 AM
And I thought it was a perfectly ordinary periwig!

OrphanPip
07-29-2010, 07:29 AM
This is really the greatest thread on Lit Net since Musicology's claim that the Earth was the center of the universe.

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 07:32 AM
Brilliant, isn't it. I'm just waiting till we get to the Black Prince.

Lokasenna
07-29-2010, 08:07 AM
Look, look! I've found lots of other pictures that have been 'whitened!'

http://www.solarnavigator.net/history/explorers_history/Winston_Churchill_British_bulldog_portrait.jpg

See, Churchill here displays obvious African characteristics. Sure, he looks white, but that's all part of the conspiracy.

http://www.theintellectualdevotional.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/gkhan1.jpg

As you can see, they haven't even bothered to properly whiten this picture of Genghis Khan - they're getting sloppy! Notice the broad, African nose as well!

http://www.the-spearhead.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Santi_di_Tito_-_Niccolo_Machiavellis_portrait_headcrop.jpg

And here as well, look! Machiavelli clearly has the short, dark hair associated with black people! Dark eyes as well! And swarthy!!!

http://www.crda.com.br/clindiagtrat/walt-disney.jpg

And Walt Disney!!! Look!!! I mean, it's so obvious!!! He could so easily be Nelson Mandela's brother!!!!

And finally:

http://croutonboy.typepad.com/cheekys_hideaway/images/frosty.gif

The greatest cover-up of them all!!!!! Frosty the so-called 'Snowman'!!!!! Obviously a whitened image of Sooty the Coal-thing from Nigerian mythology!!!!! Am I the only one who sees it!?!?!? How can you all be so BLIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


**cough** Sorry, had to get that off my chest...

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 09:52 AM
Jane Austen loved the Stuarts, especially the ‘lovely’ Queen Mary of Scots

http://www.shafe.co.uk/crystal/images/lshafe/Jones_Masque_of_Blackness_1605.jpg

Anne of Denmark, Queen of England, grandmother of The Black Boy; King Charles II Stuart.
Design for The Masque of Blackness.

http://www.kipar.org/period-galleries/paintings/1670/lely_fitzroy.jpg

The Countess of Lichfield, an illegitimate daughter of the Black Boy, ‘served’ by a Moor who resembles her father in his childhood.

http://www.kipar.org/period-galleries/paintings/1660/kerouaille.jpg

Madame de Kerouaille, a mistress of Charles II Stuart, The Black Boy, with a little Moorress symbolising blue blood, offering pearls, a symbol of purity of blood.

http://forum.www.eenvandaag.nl/viewtopic.php?f=100372&t=121624

MANICHAEAN
07-29-2010, 09:58 AM
No Orphan Pip
Dont you remember the "Shakespeare was an Italian" thread?
Good knock about stuff

Mind you, there is always Timoshenko, the Soviet military commander of the Red Army at the beginning of the German invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941.

Apparent he was not black, but Irish & was originally known as Tim O'Shea.

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 10:12 AM
Black or white? Seriously. And how do you determine this?

http://aliceverheij.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/mariah-carey-29.jpg

How does she describe herself? I say she is black, with a black identity; her father is black and she sings soul en r&b, styles associated with black artist. how about her dating practices. anyone?

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 10:13 AM
I think what makes it funnier still is that there is posted above an obvious black woman, titled Anne of Denmark, Queen of England. (The Scots would be annoyed). Queen Consort, actually, yet there are so many top-class oil paintings of her, by Folingsby, Gheeraerts, vanSomer, Oliver and a good few others, all showing a very obviously white woman with strawberry blond hair, yet the contention is that she is of African origin. It wouldn't matter much if she was, but it's so patently obvious........unless all the other paintings are FORGERIES!!!!!

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 10:17 AM
Mind you, there is always Timoshenko, the Soviet military commander of the Red Army at the beginning of the German invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941.

Apparent he was not black, but Irish & was originally known as Tim O'Shea.


http://www.google.nl/images?um=1&hl=nl&tbs=isch:1&&sa=X&ei=2IxRTK3OFJSKONXKidUE&ved=0CAUQBSgA&q=timoshenko+russian+marshall&spell=1

I see what you mean. But to me the identity is more important than features.

One can be black and irish. But the Black Irish, thats a interesting subject. I will dig up some cartoons as how Americans saw the Irish immigrants

http://www.nde.state.ne.us/ss/irish/scientific.gif

Irish resembled blacks!

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 10:19 AM
Black or white? Seriously. And how do you determine this?

http://aliceverheij.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/mariah-carey-29.jpg

How does she describe herself? I say she is black, with a black identity; her father is black and she sings soul en r&b, styles associated with black artist. how about her dating practices. anyone?

I never knew Jane Austen was blonde! Bit of a looker, too. How did she find time to write Mansfield Park? :rolleyes:

MarkBastable
07-29-2010, 10:24 AM
So your argument now seems to have resolved itself to:

a) people who appear black in pictures are black
b) people who appear white in pictures are black


As you say, "Black or white? Seriously. And how do you determine this?" Apparently one can't - so the pictures don't make good evidence.

Just for comparison, could you post a couple of pictures of people who appear white and actually are white? Seriously. As things stand there's no reason to believe that anyone in an old painting was actually the colour they appear to be.

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 10:26 AM
There's a very good oil-paining of the Irish Regiment, the Black and Tans. Would that help?

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 10:29 AM
THE MASQUE OF BLACKNESS

Explores how Africans came to Europe looking for a milder sun. In praise of black beauty which does not fade. How blacks are miraculously turned white.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Masque_of_Blackness

http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&source=hp&q=the+masque+of+blackness&meta=&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

There is no law which says that blacks cannot be made blacker with blackface.
And blacks turned white by painting themselves white.
The question is why they should have a need for such a play with such a theme.
So there are many images and things about blackness swirling around the Stuart court.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9BahiuEgVzA/SblvDc01zSI/AAAAAAAAAE0/kMlRwIdOvms/s400/Somer_Anne_of_Denmark_1617.jpg

Queen Anne was the first royal to revive the practice of using a little Moor to symbolise high birth.

http://image.absoluteastronomy.com/images/encyclopediaimages/a/an/anne_of_denmark_mourning_the_death_of_her_son_henr y_in_1612.jpg

Queen Anne of Denmark, grandmother of The Black Boy, as a blindingly white woman with a blond afro.

The NPG site has another dark drawing of Anne of Denmark but the truly black ones are kept away from us. Not so for Charles II.
Look for NPG D25726 on NPG.org.uk

By now everyone who has brains can understand that blacks can be rendered white in paintings, by bleaching and painting themselves white.

OrphanPip
07-29-2010, 10:37 AM
I actually have irrefutable scientific proof that Queen Anne of Denmark could not have been black.

You see back in 2007, genetic analysis was conducted on the remains of the Romanof family in Russia, and it was determined that the Csar Nicholas was of the mitochondrial haplogroup T.

Now mitochondrial DNA is great for establishing geneologies, because it is 100% matrilineally inherited, i.e. you get your mtDNA from your mother and only your mother.

Csar Nicholas' matrilineal heritage can be traced back to Queen Anne through Queen Victoria. Charles the I and II would be in that group as well.

And the origin of haplogroup T? Somewhere around Syria or Turkey some 20,000 years ago. It's the second most common haplotype in European populations in many regions, and suggest there is no recent African heritage in the European royals.

Some other European royals have been so kind to allow their DNA to be tested as well, and some have come up as haplogroup H, another haplogroup that originated out of the Middle East, and is not so coincidentally the most common geneology in Europe and much of the Middle East today. Now this isn't as informative as the haplogroup T, which is mostly isolated to Europe these days, but it does make African heritage very unlikely.

What does this all mean? It means that the European royalty were white.

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 10:37 AM
Blonde Afro? Stroll on!!!!! Presumably, since her hair was identical, you're going to tell us Elizabeth I was black!

MarkBastable
07-29-2010, 10:41 AM
Blonde Afro? Stroll on!!!!! Presumably, since her hair was identical, you're going to tell us Elizabeth I was black!


On that basis, you could make the argument that there were no rich white women in Elizabethan England at all.

Check out this lot (http://www.elizabethan-portraits.com/various_8.htm)....

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 10:43 AM
.
What does this all mean? It means that the European royalty were white.

Thank you so much. Now go back to sleep. And could you please change your avatar? As we all know, babies come from cabbages. And Bush did not mastermind 9/11.

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 10:44 AM
Oh, there weren't, they were all leprachauns. Except for those that weren't Hobbits, of course, but then Hobbits are a bit dark, "covered with brown, furry hair", as I recall. The plot thickens!

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 10:49 AM
MISTRESS ANNE BOLEYN

http://www.wissen.de/wde/generator/substanzen/bilder/sigmalink/a/an/ann_/anna_boleyn_1817011,property=zoom.jpg



[A dark portrait of Anna Boleyn]

http://www.earlywomenmasters.net/cds/elizabeth/images/elizabeth_levina_teerling.jpg

[Anna Boleyn’s daughter , Queen Elizabeth I, described as 'dark', so this portrat is whitened. She is famous for painting het face white]

ANNA BOLEYN’S APPEARANCE



Quote:

The Venetian diarist Marino Sanuto, who saw Anne during the meeting between Henry VIII and Francis I of France at Calais in October 1532, described her as "not one of the handsomest women in the world; she is of middling stature, swarthy complexion, long neck, wide mouth, bosom not much raised ... eyes, which are black and beautiful".[26] Simon Grynée wrote to Martin Bucer in September 1531 that Anne was "young, good-looking, of a rather dark complexion". Lancelot de Carles called her "beautiful with an elegant figure", and a Venetian in Paris in 1528 also reported that she was said to be beautiful.[27] Other descriptions of her were less neutral. An observer at her coronation wrote that "the crown became her very ill, and a wart disfigured her very much. She wore a violet velvet mantle, with a high ruff of gold thread and pearls, which concealed a swelling she has, resembling a goitre".[26] The most influential description of Anne, but also the least reliable, was written by the historian and polemicist Nicholas Sanders as late as 1586: "Anne Boleyn was rather tall of stature, with black hair, and an oval face of a sallow complexion, as if troubled with jaundice. She had a projecting tooth under the upper lip, and on her right hand six fingers. There was a large wen under her chin, and therefore to hide its ugliness she wore a high dress covering her throat ... She was handsome to look at, with a pretty mouth".[28] Sanders' description contributed to what biographer Eric Ives calls the "monster legend" of Anne Boleyn.[29]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Boleyn




Quote:

In 1532, a new Venetian ambassador described Anne thusly:
'not one of the handsomest women in the world. She is of middling stature, with a swarthy complexion, long neck, wide mouth, bosom not much raised, and in fact has nothing but the King's great appetite, and her eyes, which are black and beautiful - and take great effect on those who served the Queen when she was on the throne. She lives like a queen, and the King accompanies her to Mass - and everywhere.'




http://englishhistory.net/tudor/annedesc.html


Quote:

Anne Boleyn's Appearance

The only firmly identified, contemporary image of Anne Boleyn - a 1534 medal.
© British Museum.
Scanned by Douglas Dowell.
Anne Boleyn's appearance has been twisted by those who wished to denounce her. Contemporary accounts were distorted by the author's (usual) dislike of her. After her death, a monstrous legend was built up. Nicholas Sander's description provides the supreme calumny. The Venetian ambassador provided a more impartial report - but still not all that flattering. So, what is universally agreed upon?

Anne Boleyn was very dark. All writers agree on this point. Wyatt says she was "not so whitely as . . . above all we may esteem." Sander said she had a "sallow complexion, as if troubled with jaundice", and the Venetian ambassador said she had a "swarthy complexion". Dark brown or black hair, along with eyes so dark they were almost black and a very dark skin, combined to make Anne Boleyn conspicuously dark - and the opposite of the contemporary ideal, with golden hair, blue eyes and a pink-and-white complexion. Anne had small breasts, when a voluptuous figure was the ideal. The Venetian ambassador said she was of "middling stature" and Sander said she was "rather tall in stature". One of her favourite chaplains felt that Bessie Blount was more beautiful, although Anne was quite pretty. Much of this lukewarm praise would have been due to the fact that she was the opposite of the aforesaid contemporary ideal.

In all honesty, the following description of Anne Boleyn is ridiculous; the culmination of a legend built up by Roman Catholics who blamed her for the break with Rome. Therefore, it owes much to the deeply ingrained idea that evil people had hideous exteriors, very much like Richard III's alleged hunchback. However, it goes a long way to illuminate the degree to which Anne was slandered long after her death.

Anne Boleyn was rather tall of stature, with black hair and an oval face of sallow complexion, as if troubled with jaundice. She had a projecting tooth under the upper lip, and on her right hand, six fingers. There was a large wen under her chin, and therefore to hide its ugliness, she wore a high dress covering her throat. In this she was followed by the ladies of the court, who also wore high dresses, having before been in the habit of leaving their necks and the upper portion of their persons uncovered. She was handsome to look at, with a pretty mouth.1


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Anne_Boleyn.png

Whitened, propogandistic image of Queen Anne Boleyn. Today used as a tool of revisionism.

Hawkman
07-29-2010, 10:52 AM
http://www.janeausten.co.uk/graphics/austen_cassandra.jpg http://www.ewtn.com/gallery/holyface/21.jpg

Ok It’s time to put this one to bed. I have it on very good authority that Jane Austen was actually a man, and not only was she a man but actually she was The Risen Christ. I mean look, the eyes are the same and they’ve got the same nose and mouth. How can you not believe? The beard? Well they did have razors in Austen’s day didn’t they? And you can plainly see the halo behind her in both pictures.

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 10:52 AM
Gosh. A straight-haired redhead! Pretty, ain't she? Just out of interest, in that top picture, why are the pearls nearly black?

OrphanPip
07-29-2010, 10:55 AM
Thank you so much. Now go back to sleep. And could you please change your avatar? As we all know, babies come from cabbages. And Bush did not mastermind 9/11.

Excuse me, but genetics is a much stronger position to argue from than your misunderstanding of basic English, and ridiculous statements of "clearly African features" in paintings.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2652717/

Here is the peer-reviewed paper, the results were also duplicated by other labs later on, of the genetic analysis conducted on the remains of the Romanof family. The mitochondrial DNA clearly shows that the British royals were predominantly of the haplogroups T (T2 to be even more specific), which is heavily concentrated in Central Europe and Turkey, of course there is some gene flow between North Africa and Europe, but the fact remains that genetically the royals are more likely to be white.

Edit: And no, I will not change my avatar. Before I just thought that you were a funny lunatic, but now that you've displayed a dislike for David Bowie I think I'm going to have to hate you.

Edit2: Just fyi the vast majority of black skinned people of African heritage, around 90%+ are of the haplogroup L.

Hawkman
07-29-2010, 10:58 AM
By the way, QE 1 was famous for plastering on the makeup because she caught smallpox and was hiding the scars.

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 11:00 AM
Hawk, that picture you posted last - you sure that wasn't Brian Boru? Or Brian Blessed?

Hawkman
07-29-2010, 11:04 AM
Hawk, that picture you posted last - you sure that wasn't Brian Boru? Or Brian Blessed?

Which, the one with the beard or without?

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 11:06 AM
Oh, with, definitely. The other one was probably Anne of Denmark, or Shakespeare, not sure which.

Hawkman
07-29-2010, 11:07 AM
Well, I'm fairly certain they both predate Brain Blessed, but as for Brian Boru you'd have to consult a genealigist :D

MarkBastable
07-29-2010, 11:07 AM
By the way, QE 1 was famous for plastering on the makeup because she caught smallpox and was hiding the scars.

Propaganda! As a descendant of recent immigrants from Burkina Faso, the Virgin Queen was in reality covering up the tribal scarifications inflicted on her as a child, which practice had fallen out of fashion amongst the upper echelons of black British royalty. It is also well-known that Mary Queen of Scots wore a wig. And who else wears a wig? I'll tell you. Tina Turner! So that proves it.

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 11:09 AM
Well, I like David Bowie and did he not marry Iman?
Still I would not buy a second hand car from you, because of your avatar. And I have no use for bull**** eurocentrist genetics. They lie about everything. And their definitions of blackness stink.

http://thestudyofracialism.org/forum/2/mw41989.jpg

http://img3.photographersdirect.com/img/262/wm/pd2283156.jpg

Charlotte Sophie of Mecklenburg: brown, a true mulatto face

Then we have this Nadezha, great granddaughter of Alexander Pushkin who married into the Britisch royal familiy, and she was noted for her 'negro hair' and lesbian tendencies, and I love her for that.

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 11:09 AM
Tina Turner, a Virgin? Don't be ridiculous!!! (See my autobiography.........)

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 11:12 AM
[QUOTE=Egmond Codfried;930299]Still I would not buy a second hand car from you, because of your avatar. And I have no use for bull**** eurocentrist genetics. They lie about everything. And their definitions of blackness stink.

The voice of reason.

OrphanPip
07-29-2010, 11:16 AM
Eurocentrist genetics? It's just a fact of matrilineal heritage, it's not even Eurocentric since haplotype H is well spread out through the Middle East and a little bit in India.

It's not even a matter of blackness, if people popped out rainbow coloured you'd still be able to pinpoint that it is highly unlikely that the European royalty have recent African heritage, and by recent I mean within the last few thousand years.

Whatever amount of distrust my avatar engenders in you, I assure you I have a degree in a biomedical science from a first class university and in my opinion the genetic evidence makes the idea that European royalty was of African heritage highly unlikely.

I also have to wonder why all these black royals were so complicit in the African slave trade. Or why numerous clearly racist books were written on the subject. Even Rousseau, who you also claimed to be black earlier, examines "negroes" in comparison to monkeys and orangutans in his book on the origins of inequality. You don't even get some major voices in opposition to black slavery until the late 18th century. It just seems like odd behavior for a society that had long outlawed white slavery, but was apparently ruled by an elite black ruling class.

None of it adds up.

Lokasenna
07-29-2010, 11:16 AM
Egmond, may I ask a question? Is there a single major Western European artistic or political figure from the last 1000 years whom you don't think was black?

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 11:17 AM
http://www.blackhistory4schools.com/tudors/drake%20jewel.jpg

Jane Austen wrote her own take on history pointing out how biased etc the (male) writers were.

Now here we have The Drake Jewel, look it up. Showing The Good Queen Bess. Another golden Mohr. Another example of images of blackness swirling around European nobilty or royaly. That is, the ones which were not destroyed by the Jacobin's.

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 11:20 AM
Images of Blackness? I've got a picture of a steam-trawler in my living room, but I've never been on one, never seen one, we have no fishermen in the family, I don't even like fish, I just happen to like it. That last post proves, regrettably, nothing much at all.

Hawkman
07-29-2010, 11:22 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/Sir_Thomas_Lawrence_003.jpg/363px-Sir_Thomas_Lawrence_003.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Charlotte_Esther_Denner_1761.jpg

Here are two more portraits of Queen Charlotte.

She just looks German to me.

OrphanPip
07-29-2010, 11:23 AM
Oh boy, there certainly is an image of a black person on the Drake Jewel, but that's because Francis Drake was a slaver, and the jewel was a present to him from Queen Elizabeth for being the first Englishman to circumnavigate the globe.

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 11:25 AM
Ah, yes, but only because she was. (This is the moment we wait to be told that the paintings were whitened/forged/faked for propagandist reasons.)

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 11:26 AM
I also have to wonder why all these black royals were so complicit in the African slave trade. Or why numerous clearly racist books were written on the subject. Even Rousseau, who you also claimed to be black earlier, examines "negroes" in comparison to monkeys and orangutans in his book on the origins of inequality. You don't even get some major voices in opposition to black slavery until the late 18th century. It just seems like odd behavior for a society that had long outlawed white slavery, but was apparently ruled by an elite black ruling class.

None of it adds up.

Dear, i'm so unimpressed with your credentials and I wonder why you are not chairing some symposium somewhere?

But this part of your posting I like a lot and it shows you have mastered the art of sticking to the topic. Pity you did not read Mansfield Park because the Bertrams are Black Britains, from the Gentry and slave owners. That's why they are so greedy for the delights of Mr. Henry Crawford who is black and his sister who is very brown. Slavery has less to do with racism then with greed. Just like whites will exploit and murder and sell other whites for a buck, so will blacks. You see, they are only human, no pun intended.

But dear, did you know about white slavery alongside black slavery in the American colonies? Did you know there were black slavemasters, Black Dutch, and former slaves who became slavemasters. And blacks and white slaves working together, fighting for their freedom? And the "proto-first-American president an European black?"

http://symonsez.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/john_hanson_portrait_1770.jpg

John Hanson, half whitened.


http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&source=hp&q=white+slaves+america&meta=&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

About white slaves in America

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 11:32 AM
Oh boy, there certainly is an image of a black person on the Drake Jewel, but that's because Francis Drake was a slaver, and the jewel was a present to him from Queen Elizabeth for being the first Englishman to circumnavigate the globe.

Dear, does this black king who's profile is dominating that of a white women the image of a slave?

To me it represents an image of black superiority.

OrphanPip
07-29-2010, 11:34 AM
This is simply anachronistic, like I said in my post if you bothered to read it properly, white slavery was outlawed way before black slavery was. About 2 centuries before, and even before that the standard was not the same, indentured servitude was often practice on white people, but rarely were white people allowed to be chattel slaves, like African blacks.

Hawkman
07-29-2010, 11:36 AM
Ah, but does the fact that the jewel also depicts an image of a phoenix indicate the all royals are in fact mythical birds?

MarkBastable
07-29-2010, 11:41 AM
http://symonsez.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/john_hanson_portrait_1770.jpg

John Hanson, half whitened.




Okay. I'm going to listen very carefully to the answer to this...

What is there in this picture that makes you believe that this bloke was black?

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 11:43 AM
Hanson's lineage was Swedish American. Get out of that without moving!

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 12:06 PM
This is simply anachronistic, like I said in my post if you bothered to read it properly, white slavery was outlawed way before black slavery was. About 2 centuries before, and even before that the standard was not the same, indentured servitude was often practice on white people, but rarely were white people allowed to be chattel slaves, like African blacks.

Sweetheart, did you read al the three billion hits? You know that you have to read as many sources to proof a fact, and you did not.

The fact that what I say sounds strange or anachronistic or whatever does not mean my theory has no merits. Like I pity the person who broke the news that the earth was not flat. I imagine him being stoned and flayed alive or gangraped. That's what I'm experiencing right now...well not the rape..but the ridicule etc.

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 12:08 PM
Some of you are on my ignore list. Does this site offer the facility to block out those unwanted, who first offend, then next want to talk. Well I'm not playing that stupid game. I do expect some breeding and good manners.

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 12:09 PM
No, the ridicule went to the first clot who suggested that it still wasn't round despite the proof, but insisted that it was still flat. Or banana shaped.

Hawkman
07-29-2010, 12:24 PM
I think it was ptolomy who first proved the earth was round, he measured it's circumference

DanielBenoit
07-29-2010, 12:27 PM
Okay this is all I have to say:

The atrocities of white society throughout history has resulted in an almost total lack of pre-Abolitionist era black writers. This results in a unanimous amount of white writers in the West. To acknowledge this is not to insult the literary merits of individuals of African-descent, but to acknowledge history, and a sad one at that.

I'm sorry that instead of an intelligent or gifted black man or women had to be a slave instead of a writer in the 19th century (or any century), but that is simply how it was.


I think it was ptolomy who first proved the earth was round, he measured it's circumference

No it was Archimedes some 400 years earlier.

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 12:28 PM
I think it was ptolomy who first proved the earth was round, he measured it's circumference

But did he went and tell the folks about it? And was he raped for his pains?

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 12:37 PM
Okay this is all I have to say:

The atrocities of white society throughout history has resulted in an almost total lack of pre-Abolitionist era black writers. This results in a unanimous amount of white writers in the West. To acknowledge this is not to insult the literary merits of individuals of African-descent, but to acknowledge history, and a sad one at that.

I'm sorry that instead of an intelligent or gifted black man or women had to be a slave instead of a writer in the 19th century (or any century), but that is simply how it was.



No it was Archimedes some 400 years earlier.

Please don't go!

close your eyes and realise that not all blacks were enslaved and thsi type of slavery lasten only 500 years, and as the first humans were Africans we might expect them to have the first civilisation, and producing writers, no?

=====================================


Dear Jane Austen refused to meet one Miss Burdett, one reads in the Tomalin Biography, p. 236, who might have been a daughter of Francis Burdett a radical reformer. I'am looking him up and this cartoon first popped up, with all these wonderful physionogmies.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/csl1094l.jpg

One of them is Burdett. I guess he was a Jacobin, not Austen's favourite kind of interest.

But this wish from Miss Burdett induced Jane Austen to write to Cassandra: 'If I'm a wild beast I cannot help it. It's not my fault.'

Nobody knows what she really meant. And she does not come across as a wild beast, to us.

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 12:38 PM
But did he went and tell the folks about it? And was he raped for his pains?

Actually, it was referenced at Isaiah Chapter 40 and verse 21.

Hawkman
07-29-2010, 12:51 PM
But did he went and tell the folks about it? And was he raped for his pains?

Yes he did and no he wasn't.

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 12:54 PM
A little glance at Byron's Don Juan: IV iv may help.

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 01:05 PM
Yes he did and no he wasn't.


Kindly enlighten us about Socrates and Aristotle who were blacks

http://thestudyofracialism.org/forum/2/Arabic_aristotle.jpg

http://geopolicraticus.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/socrates.jpg

Socrates

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 01:20 PM
May I just see if I've got this right? According to your research, Socrates, Aristotle, Jane Austen, Nibbs, Sophie Charlotte, Anne Boleyn, Anne of Denmark, George Washington, Shakespeare, Beethoven, Rousseau, Voltaire, L'Alembert and Hanson were all black. Is this correct?

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 01:22 PM
Ah, but does the fact that the jewel also depicts an image of a phoenix indicate the all royals are in fact mythical birds?

Dear, you do not sound very bright. There are people whose mind does not sparkle. Its a drag to have to deal with those types, no? Like o another site a woman stated that men should not read Jane Austen, because they are then les off a man. So ignorant. But this is the lowest, I think, there are others less low, yet still exceedingly stupid. What you think?


http://www.africamaat.com/IMG/jpg/mere_d_alessandro.jpg



Here it is again, the profile of a black king eclipsing that of a white woman: black superiority in Renaissance Europe.

This is a detail of a candelabrum at the Louvre, a gift to, I think Maria de Medici who married the French king Henri IV. She was the grandmother of The Black Boy, Charles II Stuart. Who was a cousin of Louis XIV.

Hawkman
07-29-2010, 01:24 PM
Well, the top image ceratinly shows one character who appears to be black but where is the attribution? I certainly can't read the arabic writing underneath. Can you? If so please translate for me. and are they contemporary images?

As for Socrates, well he looks more red than black. Perhaps he was a Native American.

hillwalker
07-29-2010, 01:25 PM
Of course, along with Confucious, Erik the Red (black not red) and the virgin Mary. Then once 'Tippex' was invented someone went around whitening them all to denigrate (is that the right word in this context) the legacy of Afro-centrist literature.

I love this thread - I haven't laughed so much since our 'chemtrails' friend enterd hibernation.

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 01:31 PM
Mr Codfried. You mentioned manners. You then insult Pip, you call people, somewhat condescendingly and patronisingly "dear" and "sweetheart". Then you insult Hawkman. Practice what you preach.

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 01:32 PM
Of course, along with Confucious, Erik the Red (black not red) and the virgin Mary. Then once 'Tippex' was invented someone went around whitening them all to denigrate (is that the right word in this context) the legacy of Afro-centrist literature.

I love this thread - I haven't laughed so much since our 'chemtrails' friend enterd hibernation.

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/switzerland/einsiedeln-pictures/black-madonna-officsite.JPG

Did anyone say Black Madonna?

Its the strangest thing, all over Europa, Black Madonna's, black Jesuses etc.

http://yeyeolade.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/3071692709_e891935144_b.jpg

It could only mean that the elite was black, reversed apartheid, and no use for a white divinity or saints. black superiority. And don't give me soot, because why would the soot only settle on the face and the hands?

Again fellars, this needs to be explained and my theory permits us to do so.

http://www.beforebc.de/Made.by.Humankind/Gods.MotherGoddeses/00502.009JesusChristOf3rdCentury.jpg


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_U-9vpJ8PAl0/ScBImTkyDuI/AAAAAAAAA-A/k0Xzgmd3G2I/S1600-R/masterofstveronica.jpg

http://www.christusrex.org/www2/art/images/icon21.jpg

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 01:34 PM
Palestinians ARE dark-skinned! Hardly a revelation!

Hawkman
07-29-2010, 01:36 PM
Dear, you do not sound very bright. There are people whose mind does not sparkle. Its a drag to have to deal with those types, no? Like o another site a woman stated that men should not read Jane Austen, because they are then les off a man. So ignorant. But this is the lowest, I think, there are others less low, yet still exceedingly stupid. What you think?


http://www.africamaat.com/IMG/jpg/mere_d_alessandro.jpg



Here it is again, the profile of a black king eclipsing that of a white woman: black superiority in Renaissance Europe.

This is a detail of a candelabrum at the Louvre, a gift to, I think Maria de Medici who married the French king Henri IV. She was the grandmother of The Black Boy, Charles II Stuart. Who was a cousin of Louis XIV.

The logic is yours, if it is stupid and tiresome, why practice it?

dafydd manton
07-29-2010, 01:44 PM
Tell you where the problem lies, Hawk. That bit on your signature about "pale death that knocks at the doors.........." Bit inflammatory, I reckon!

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 01:49 PM
http://www.blackpast.org/files/blackpast_images/usicians_in_Lisbon__ca__1522__public_domain_.jpg

Black Musicians, 1522

hillwalker
07-29-2010, 01:52 PM
Help..... I've just noticed this photo of my avatar - I'm actually quite grey, perhaps even black-skinned under certain screen resolutions (then whitened courtesy of Adobe Photoshop no doubt). Is there no end to this dastardly conspiracy?

H

Egmond Codfried
07-29-2010, 01:55 PM
Help..... I've just noticed this photo of my avatar - I'm actually quite grey, perhaps even black-skinned under certain screen resolutions (then whitened courtesy of Adobe Photoshop no doubt). Is there no end to this dastardly conspiracy?

H

i bet you never read jane austen.

http://www.blackcoatpress.com/dumas.jpg

Alexander Dumas

Hawkman
07-29-2010, 01:57 PM
http://www.online-literature.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=921&pictureid=7623

Here we have a representation of the Madona and Child from the top of Albert Cathedral in France. As you can see they are heavily gilded. Does this mean that the colour of their skin was gold?

MANICHAEAN
07-29-2010, 02:00 PM
http://My Photos

OrphanPip
07-29-2010, 02:05 PM
Well Dumas actually was 1/4 black, don't you think it's odd that they forgot to "whitewash" that historical detail.

Maybe it's because Dumas wrote god awful pulpy trash.

hillwalker
07-29-2010, 02:08 PM
i bet you never read jane austen.

On what basis do you make that ludicrous assumption - on studying my picture, the same research methods you employ for most of your thesis?

Scheherazade
07-29-2010, 02:13 PM
I do expect some breeding and good manners.So do I.


Till now, I have defended your right to share your views on this topic; however, I will NOT tolerate you (or anyone else) insulting other members who question your arguments or disagree with them openly.

Thank you so much. Now go back to sleep. And could you please change your avatar? As we all know, babies come from cabbages. And Bush did not mastermind 9/11.

Dear, you do not sound very bright. There are people whose mind does not sparkle. Its a drag to have to deal with those types, no? Like o another site a woman stated that men should not read Jane Austen, because they are then les off a man. So ignorant. But this is the lowest, I think, there are others less low, yet still exceedingly stupid. What you think?

This thread will now be closed.