Gender Roles

[Scheherazade]

Do you think gender roles are still relevant or necessary?

How do they affect us?

[OrphanPip]

I don't think gender roles disappear they just change with culture and time. I think in Western society they have become broader and more accommodating, but they're still there. We still expect women and men to act within certain parameters.

[JuniperWoolf]

I had a trans-gender English teacher one time who taught me a lot about this issue. I'll comment more as the discussion goes on.

[Paulclem]

There's still a perception of particular roles for certain jobs. I'm thinking of Primary School Teachers where most of them are female. There's no barrier to male teachers working in this area, but there may be the perception that you are more under suspicion as a paedophile by the men themselves.

I worked with a Primary school deputy once who commented that he liked the older Primary School kids because you can do more with them.

[Virgil]

I don't think gender roles disappear they just change with culture and time. I think in Western society they have become broader and more accommodating, but they're still there. We still expect women and men to act within certain parameters.

I think that's about right. Gender roles exist, but are mutable with varying conditions. I would add circumstance as well to culture and time to O-P's statement. I think people trapped on a deserted island (a bit of a cliche, I know) are going to gravitate to fundemental male and female roles. A warrior society dictates certain roles while that same society settled into an extended period of peace will have other roles.

[TheFifthElement]

There's still a perception of particular roles for certain jobs. I'm thinking of Primary School Teachers where most of them are female. There's no barrier to male teachers working in this area, but there may be the perception that you are more under suspicion as a paedophile by the men themselves.
I think perception is a good word to use when talking about gender roles, whether specifically related to careers or otherwise. Primary school teaching is a particular issue, the converse side of which is that there is a perception that being a male primary school teacher is a one way ticket to a Head Teacher role. It's a shame either way; I'd like to see more balance there.

By the way, love your Dwayne Dibbly avatar. My hero!

[dizzydoll]

I fancy gender roles. I love to see a man hold up to his end as a gentleman and there is nothing better than to see a woman act like a lady. I praise men who open doors for women. And every man who stands up when a women enters the room is definitely noticed by all women in that room. Men on the other hand will mock him for being so polite, they dont count... this one's the womans' call and she will never forget him with such mannerliness.

[applepie]

Gender roles still exist in some way shape or form everywhere. Society dictates, the rules, but I think that there will always be a difference in the things men and women do or are expected to do. Even within my own home gender roles have been placed by both myself and my children't definition of things Mommy does. When they're hurt, hungry, tired, sick, etc they're all mine. When they wish to play, they are all their Dad's. It isn't like I don't wish to play with them and he doesn't wish to cuddle them when they're sick, but we still fall into the stereotypical gender roles within our home.

[motherhubbard]

I fancy gender roles. I love to see a man hold up to his end as a gentleman and there is nothing better than to see a woman act like a lady. I praise men who open doors for women. And every man who stands up when a women enters the room is definitely noticed by all women in that room. Men on the other hand will mock him for being so polite, they dont count... this one's the womans' call and she will never forget him with such mannerliness.

I'm with you. My husband stands when I enter the room and it's very nice. My boys always hold the door for women. If there is a man who should have held the door my boys will look at them like they are shocked and ashamed and most men lower their heads ashamed.

I don't mind being the lady of the house or my husband being the head of the house. In fact, I rather like it. Gender roles are pretty closely adhered to in my family and I believe that has greatly contributed to the happiness and success of my marriage. It helps that I chose a wonderful man who loves me.

[Jozanny]

Disability changes gender notions very very quickly, especially for those comforted by conventional stereotypes of gentlemen and ladies. These are fictions, good for movie stars and romance. Men are biologically modified females, and how much the same we are is evident before puberty and then into old age.

[Babyguile]

I'm with you. My husband stands when I enter the room and it's very nice. My boys always hold the door for women. If there is a man who should have held the door my boys will look at them like they are shocked and ashamed and most men lower their heads ashamed.

I don't mind being the lady of the house or my husband being the head of the house. In fact, I rather like it. Gender roles are pretty closely adhered to in my family and I believe that has greatly contributed to the happiness and success of my marriage. It helps that I chose a wonderful man who loves me.

And what of women holding doors for women and men holding doors for men? I'd much rather see people showing this level on consideration to eathother regardless of gender.


I had a trans-gender English teacher one time who taught me a lot about this issue. I'll comment more as the discussion goes on.

I'll be reading what you say eagerly :nod: I'm quite jealous that you have had the opportunity to discuss with your teacher it must have been very enlightening.

[papayahed]

And what of women holding doors for women and men holding doors for men? I'd much rather see people showing this level on consideration to eathother regardless of gender.


Reminds me of an ex-coworker. He held the door open for me one day but quickly informed me that he held the door open because I was carrying boxes not because I was a woman because that would be sexist as he doesn't hold the door for male coworkers. :skep:

[BienvenuJDC]

Gender roles still exist in some way shape or form everywhere. Society dictates, the rules, but I think that there will always be a difference in the things men and women do or are expected to do. Even within my own home gender roles have been placed by both myself and my children't definition of things Mommy does. When they're hurt, hungry, tired, sick, etc they're all mine. When they wish to play, they are all their Dad's. It isn't like I don't wish to play with them and he doesn't wish to cuddle them when they're sick, but we still fall into the stereotypical gender roles within our home.

I agree. No matter how sensitive I am, the girls want mommy in certain situations. As much as I try to be mommy when she is working, there are limitations...more than the obvious too....

[motherhubbard]

And what of women holding doors for women and men holding doors for men? I'd much rather see people showing this level on consideration to eathother regardless of gender.

Well of course, Silly! We should all hold the door for others. However, when all else is equal a man should get the door for a woman. It's not unusual for my husband to walk me to the car just to get the door. He was raised in a time and area where that kind of thing was expected of a man. But I don't think that has a lot to do with gender roles, it's just courtesy. When a baby is born, someone dies, or someone is ill you carry food to the family. When you neighbor needs help with the kids you watch them. In the winter you cut wood and in the summer you mow lawns for the elderly. There are shut-ins to visit and phone calls to check on people to make. These things are just like standing when a woman enters the room. I'm very proud to live in an area where these courtesies are still observed. I see that many young people are less likely to consider the needs of others and I think it may be our undoing.

I think gender roles have more to do with our place in society. Can I hold a position of authority over a man? Should I have to have my husband's signature before I can borrow money or open a bank account? Does my husband have the right to tell me that I can't keep a job and will instead tend to matters of the home? These are what I would call gender role issues.

[The Comedian]

Gender roles for all!

Or if that doesn't suit you. . . .

Gender roles for none!

Or if that doesn't suit you. . . .

Gender roles for some and no gender roles for others!

[BienvenuJDC]

Gender roles for all!

Or if that doesn't suit you. . . .

Gender roles for none!

Or if that doesn't suit you. . . .

Gender roles for some and no gender roles for others!

You get an A+ for decisiveness...

[dizzydoll]

And what of women holding doors for women and men holding doors for men? I'd much rather see people showing this level on consideration to eathother regardless of gender.

I dont know what you are talking about, this happens already.. I see it all over the place, businessmen opening doors for other men... women opening doors for all. I think your comment is just argumentative. I agree with motherhubbard, we want to see more gentlemen around. Less selfishness would make the world rock. :coolgleamA:

[Revolte]

I dont know what you are talking about, this happens already.. I see it all over the place, businessmen opening doors for other men... women opening doors for all. I think your comment is just argumentative. I agree with motherhubbard, we want to see more gentlemen around. Less selfishness would make the world rock. :coolgleamA:

I agree, I hold the door open for people all the time, men and women, kids and elders it doesn't matter. I strongly believe random acts of kindness like that could make the world such a better place if more people would be like that. Smile at people now and then, of course they are wierded out by it no one ever does it! Blah, I hate how dry and anti-social culture is, around here anyway, I say treat everyone with the greatest respect, it makes a difference in the long run. Almost no one has ever done something like hold the door open for me, but a few months ago, I just got my heart broken and I was really down and lost almost all of what was left of my respect for people. I go to the store to buy some smokes and when I was leaving this girl held the door open for me, turned and looked at me, and smiled. It made a huge difference on my outlook that day and I won't ever forget it.

as for gender roles, no such thing, never has been. It's easy for the boys at the top or majority to say a person serves any set role, but in the end they don't. Men should do what men want to do, Women should do what women want to do. I personaly don't like the idea of being with a girl who will do my chores herself, I would much rather do it myself and hers for her. I think its plain stupid to expect something out of some one just because of their sex. Hey if you want to be with a lady who is willing to do all your surviving for you ( cooking n what not ) whatever thats your choice, but I feel sorry for the lady for not having the balls to step up and refuse, or to at least keep herself away from guys like that. I see too much of it and it's disturbing. Of course if the lady wishes to do that, then hey fine thats her choice, if she enjoys it thats awsome. It can be the other way around too of course, I was in a pretty controlling relationship for two years and yeah.. but thats aside the point.

gender roles, gibberish.

[janesmith]

Gender roles are inevitable and perfectly acceptable as long as we acknowledge the fluidity of gender and sexuality. Gender stereotyping is what we should aim to avoid.

[OrphanPip]

I've known a couple trans people, but gender identity isn't really the same as gender roles. You can still identify with the male gender without conforming to conventional male gender roles. Gender roles has more to do with societal perception of how people should behave, while gender identity is a personal subjective sense of how one fits into gender definitions.

[Scheherazade]

Gender roles has more to do with societal perception of how people should behave, while gender identity is a personal subjective sense of how one fits into gender definitions.This is a good point, I think.

I think we all need to acknowledge the fact that "roles" have been changing; however, are they obsolete today? Not needed anymore?

If that is the case, how does/will affect our society? For example, children will not need both parents anymore since one parent can act both as mom and dad?

[soundofmusic]

I've lived for 55 years in the South; and while I have seen men and women change their hair styles and clothing to look unisex; I don't see that much has changed regarding others perceptions. Neither does it change what we are capable of doing. Womens rights has not made it any easier for me to pull the starter on a lawnmower. Older women are still considered ridiculous when they have a young man on their arm; while a man is considered a player. Even rich, powerful women like Oprah Winfrey are considered losers if they are not in a relationship. Two women or two men raising a child is not considered, by most, a viable alternative to opposite gender parents...Has anything really changed?:shocked:

[Revolte]

If that is the case, how does/will affect our society? For example, children will not need both parents anymore since one parent can act both mom and dad?

I was raised by my mom and it worked out best for me. my dad wasnt around much, though were cool now, it wasnt the case when I was younger. Kids don't need both parents.

[motherhubbard]

I was raised by my mom and it worked out best for me. my dad wasnt around much, though were cool now, it wasnt the case when I was younger. Kids don't need both parents.

I think kids can turn out fine without both parents, but I still think they need both. And, the parents need eachother. Nobody ever talks about how much easier it is when there are two. I could raise my children without my husband and we would all keep making it, but I hate to think of the toll it would take on me and my kids. Of course, I understand that there are some people who are not fit parents and in those situations it may be easier on the one if the other isn't there to have to deal with.

[TurquoiseSunset]

I don't think gender roles disappear they just change with culture and time. I think in Western society they have become broader and more accommodating, but they're still there. We still expect women and men to act within certain parameters.


I think that's about right. Gender roles exist, but are mutable with varying conditions. I would add circumstance as well to culture and time to O-P's statement. I think people trapped on a deserted island (a bit of a cliche, I know) are going to gravitate to fundemental male and female roles. A warrior society dictates certain roles while that same society settled into an extended period of peace will have other roles.

I agree with both of you.
Like OrphanPip said, there will always be gender roles, and that's okay, as long as they are not strictly enforced. Gender roles are natural because women and men are different biologically and therefore we go about things differently.

All of this also brings up the issue of equality vs. gender roles. I personally think (flexible) gender roles can exist in harmony with equality, while some think if you truely want to be equal you have to let the gender roles go...which I think is impossible. So, that essentially means that if you work in a male dominated industry you will be treated like man, and vice versa. That's not right in my opinion.

Does any of that makes sense? I know what I'm trying to say, but I'm not sure I'm expressing myself very well :D

[dizzydoll]

That's not right in my opinion.

You make perfect sense and I agree with you. There are men who sell ladies underwear and we shouldnt expect them to wear Victoria Secrets for example. lol.

[ktm5124]

As long as women are the ones giving birth to babies, there's a difference that we can't get rid of ;-) Mothers will always have a different relationship with their children because they will share an experience with the child that the father cannot intrude on - that of rearing the baby inside the womb, being of one and the same body. And then there are other experiences to which only the mother will be privileged - breastfeeding, for one. The mother will always have a more intimate physical connection with the child. A person cannot play both mother and father; these are roles of sex, not gender.

[Indyben]

I hate it when people give other people certain "roles" because of their sex. To me it seems archaic to have the stay-at-home mum while the husband goes out and does the work. We have equal opportunities for a reason, and that's because people realised that the gender roles of the time where unfair, so we had the protesters like the Suffraggetes and Women's Lib, and more power to them! However it sucks to see that a lot of people still think that men should be more dominent and women submissive. I would consider myself a male female rights activist lol. This is not a reply to any posts on this thread, I'm just having my two cents.

[Scheherazade]

The OP:
Do you think gender roles are still relevant or necessary?

How do they affect us?

[Revolte]

Gender roles are silly, don't you think?

What if I told you, your soul purpose is to wash my clothes, even though I have the ability to do so just fine. But it's your place, you have no rights outside of what I allow.

I own you, you are my property.

And I, as a man, serve the purpose of ownership. I am the leader, the king, the hunter. I bring the profit so that you can live by my rule, and be thankful about it. Surely you would burn if not for my compassion.


Yea, I feel sorry for the people who take that crap seriously. And I've heard it. It's the worst kind of defeat.

[The Comedian]

Are we talkin' universal gender roles or unique ones (say to a family and to a culture)?

I live in a house with three females (two kids, one adult), and I open the pickle jars; I squish the spiders; I take out the rubbish; I split the firewood; I bait the hooks for fishin'; and I drink the beer. I also cook most of the meals, I share in washin' the dishes; I can fold laundry (though I'm really a complementary force, nor the primary one).

My wife works full time, makes (slightly) more dinero than me, cleans up after dinner, bathes and dresses the kids, does most of the kid shopping, and organizes the social agenda for the family.

While some of these roles cross traditional (1950s) gender roles, most fall in line with them.

Mrs. Comedian and I are both happy in our roles, gendered as they may be at times.

Universally, I think there's something to those traditional gender roles -- something that lasts. Sure there needs to be room for change and adaptation to changing events. But, here's the key: as long as one is not derided as inferior (as the female roles once were), then they're all necessary -- just jobs to be done.

C

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

We all display gender roles. It's impossible not to. Even if one strives to display a completely androgynous gender, that is still playing into that gender role.

[cacian]

Interesting subject I wonder if there is anything about it in the Bible seeing that it is written by men. There is everything else under the sun in it.
I personally do not believe in gender role I think it is down to personality and strength.
Who wears the trousers and all depends who is who. I think skills and organisation transcend gender.

[Helga]

and I open the pickle jars



I never give up on a jar! When it comes to strength I am so stubborn. I think I can do everything a man can. I just got a bookcase and I was putting it together and thought I could lift the back of it alone, well I did but I dropped it on my leg and when I did that I got so mad at myself for dropping it I kicked a table and hurt my leg even more... it doesn't look good but I managed to put the back in the case.

I don't know about gender roles, I think it should just be a compromise, one shouldn't do everything. I never let my ex do the laundry cause he wouldn't hang the clothes up in the correct order so I did it gladly. But then again he never did anything around the house.

I remember a friend of mine said that her boyfriend cleaned the car and she cleaned the house, I found that very very unfair.

I hate cooking so I would love meeting a vegetarian that loves to cook. Oh I have a dishwasher and there is a right way and a wrong way of putting dishes in it so I do that too.

to quote my buddy Shelly 'It's not my fault that the correct way to do things is my way'

[Paulclem]

I never give up on a jar! When it comes to strength I am so stubborn. I think I can do everything a man can. I just got a bookcase and I was putting it together and thought I could lift the back of it alone, well I did but I dropped it on my leg and when I did that I got so mad at myself for dropping it I kicked a table and hurt my leg even more... it doesn't look good but I managed to put the back in the case.

I don't know about gender roles, I think it should just be a compromise, one shouldn't do everything. I never let my ex do the laundry cause he wouldn't hang the clothes up in the correct order so I did it gladly. But then again he never did anything around the house.

I remember a friend of mine said that her boyfriend cleaned the car and she cleaned the house, I found that very very unfair.

I hate cooking so I would love meeting a vegetarian that loves to cook. Oh I have a dishwasher and there is a right way and a wrong way of putting dishes in it so I do that too.

to quote my buddy Shelly 'It's not my fault that the correct way to do things is my way'

:lol:

A division of labour is he answer. My wife does most of the cooking. I do all of the washing up, (even when I cook - somehow). I am now allowed to put things in the washer, but my hanging clothes ability is looked upon with scorn and suspicion. (The "is he doing that on purpose to annoy me" type suspicion).


Gender roles are silly, don't you think?

What if I told you, your soul purpose is to wash my clothes, even though I have the ability to do so just fine. But it's your place, you have no rights outside of what I allow.

I own you, you are my property.

And I, as a man, serve the purpose of ownership. I am the leader, the king, the hunter. I bring the profit so that you can live by my rule, and be thankful about it. Surely you would burn if not for my compassion.


Yea, I feel sorry for the people who take that crap seriously. And I've heard it. It's the worst kind of defeat.

it's too simplistic. There are women who take control of the house - it's not just a one way street. I think it comes under a clause called "standards".

I think most people have a joint responsibility for day to day stuff, though there are no doubt still lots of cases of dominance by one partner.

[JuniperWoolf]

My gender roles are supposed to be cooking and cleaning, yeah? I don't mind cooking because the reward is good food, but I don't clean because I'd be perfectly content to live in a moderate mess (moderate because I don't have enough stuff to make my place truly messy). I don't know what I'd do if I didn't live with someone who didn't mind doing dishes, but I'd figure something out.


I never give up on a jar!

Haha, I once went knocking on doors on the first floor of my appartment building looking for someone to open a jar. I needed spaghetti sauce! The first three doors were two chicks and one guy who couldn't get it open either, but on the fourth door the rig guys living there took it as a challenge and pried a big hole in the lid with a screwdriver.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

My gender roles are supposed to be cooking and cleaning, yeah? I don't mind cooking because the reward is good food, but I don't clean because I'd be perfectly content to live in a moderate mess (moderate because I don't have enough stuff to make my place truly messy). I don't know what I'd do if I didn't live with someone who didn't mind doing dishes, but I'd figure something out.

Well, cleaning does serve other purposes aside from a person's junk out of disarray. Germs, dirt, all that.

Before my mom went to working part-time, my dad did 90% of the cooking and 100% of the cleaning. The only thing he didn't do the most of was the laundry. My mom made more money, too. These situations aren't at all out of the norm now. The idea of a woman's place being a homemaker is incredibly antiquated. A new trend is actually starting where women receive more backlash if they do decide to be a homemaker or stay-at-home mom, almost always from other women.

[JuniperWoolf]

Well, cleaning does serve other purposes aside from a person's junk out of disarray. Germs, dirt, all that.

Bah! Let death claim me, I ain't cleaning ****.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Bah! Let death claim me, I ain't cleaning ****.

:lol: Germs are a myth, anyways. Too bad musicology isn't still around. I'm sure he could tell us why.

[Darcy88]

Bah! Let death claim me, I ain't cleaning ****.

I have the same attitude. We have immune systems designed to kill germs. Unless someone works with lots of raw meat or works at a hospital germs should not be unduly avoided.

People got weak immune systems because they disinfect everything and then when they do encounter some bacteria they die. You won't die because you are not anal retentive about cleaning.

I have a mother who is super into cleaning and a father who is more chill about it. I take after my father. My living spaces are usually cluttered but not disgusting. Usually. Hahaha.

[prendrelemick]

I embrace bacteria.

[Babyguile]

A new trend is actually starting where women receive more backlash if they do decide to be a homemaker or stay-at-home mom, almost always from other women.

This is something Bill O'Reilly would say, or some other hack job conservative Republican on Fox News. Research shows that it is those women who choose to go out and work, rather than those who stay home with the kids, who receive society's scorn.


The idea of a woman's place being a homemaker is incredibly antiquated.

Is it? Then why do women still do the majority of the housework even though they and their partners may both be working full-time? Women up and down your country and mine are still toiling through that unpaid 'second shift'. It looks like you are speaking from your own perceptions of the world and not the bigger picture.


Before my mom went to working part-time, my dad did 90% of the cooking and 100% of the cleaning. The only thing he didn't do the most of was the laundry. My mom made more money, too. These situations aren't at all out of the norm now.

Did your mother work full-time before she worked part-time? If so, then the situation you go on to outline is the one which is not the norm. Usually the spouse who earns the most money affords the larger bargaining power when it comes to deciding who does the housework (men earn more = men do less housework), but in those rare situations when the higher earner is a woman, she will still find herself doing the majority of the housework. There are many reasons for this, and in fact many of them are comical.

I think modern men do finally understand the importance of chipping in and helping their partner out with housework, but very few men actually do it, and when they do help out they expect a reward. You can't expect big changes like gender role reform to happen across a generation, or even a few: Men are emotional, so when he has grown up watching his mother do all the housework, he learns from that situation and sees it as the norm, i.e. there exists a constant conflict between his modern sensibilities and his implicit sense of what 'natural' gender roles should be.

[Paulclem]

I'm not sure how you can know what women up and down the country do except from a limited anecdotal view - which may or may not be as you say.

In my anecdotal experience, the men I talk to seem to have come to a compromise about the jobs they do with their partners.

but very few men actually do it, and when they do help out they expect a reward.


Men are emotional, so when he has grown up watching his mother do all the housework, he learns from that situation and sees it as the norm,

There's no way you can know most men and judge what very few men do or think. In my opinion that's just another stereotype that's too simplistic to give any idea of what goes on.

There are tidy, lazy, busy, slothful, demanding, obsessive compulsive, hysterical, control freaky men and women.

[Helga]

Haha, I once went knocking on doors on the first floor of my appartment building looking for someone to open a jar. I needed spaghetti sauce! The first three doors were two chicks and one guy who couldn't get it open either, but on the fourth door the rig guys living there took it as a challenge and pried a big hole in the lid with a screwdriver.

I never give up, if I can't open it I use the handle on a spoon and jam it under the lid to let some air in, that makes it easier. but that is a kind of a funny house call, 'hey can you open a jar for me?'

[Alexander III]

Bah! Let death claim me, I ain't cleaning ****.

Well little lady, with that attitude you will never find yourself a respectable husband.

[Babyguile]

I'm not sure how you can know what women up and down the country do except from a limited anecdotal view - which may or may not be as you say.

In my anecdotal experience, the men I talk to seem to have come to a compromise about the jobs they do with their partners.

but very few men actually do it, and when they do help out they expect a reward.


Men are emotional, so when he has grown up watching his mother do all the housework, he learns from that situation and sees it as the norm,

There's no way you can know most men and judge what very few men do or think. In my opinion that's just another stereotype that's too simplistic to give any idea of what goes on.

There are tidy, lazy, busy, slothful, demanding, obsessive compulsive, hysterical, control freaky men and women.

How annoying that you assumed I was being simply anecdotal :lol: ... I was drawing on a field of psychological research into the division of labour in the home. Should I really be called upon to provide links and references for every point I make? My aim was deliberately to refute Mustatis' conclusions which he drew from his own anecdotal experiences, and I made that quite clear.

I will provide links but you have to promise you will read them. Otherwise a good summary of the last twenty years of this research can be found in Cordelia Fine's book Delusions of Gender. It's kind of my area.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

This is something Bill O'Reilly would say, or some other hack job conservative Republican on Fox News. Research shows that it is those women who choose to go out and work, rather than those who stay home with the kids, who receive society's scorn.

Is it? Then why do women still do the majority of the housework even though they and their partners may both be working full-time? Women up and down your country and mine are still toiling through that unpaid 'second shift'. It looks like you are speaking from your own perceptions of the world and not the bigger picture.

Tell that to the women and professors in my class on feminism. These aren't even my own theories, it was stuff I learned in class, stuff brought up by women way mor into the whole feminism thing.

Also, I said a new TREND, i.e., it's not the norm, but it is gaining popularity.

Thirdly, women making more money is not at all uncommon. Again, not saying its the norm--we still have the problem of a woman making 3/4 of what a man does doing the same job, which is incredibly backwards--just saying it isn't all that rare.

I went to a seminar (given by two feminists) who discussed how, for some feminists, it's hard for them to transition from fighting for everything to actually accepting some victories have been made. They don't know how to transition from fighting to accosting, so one of two things happens: they start fighting and nit-picking over the most trivial of things, or just refuse to see some actual change has happened. You sound like one of those, Babyguile, the latter specifically.

Also, yes, when you say "research shows," maybe you should post the "research."

[Paulclem]

How annoying that you assumed I was being simply anecdotal :lol: ... I was drawing on a field of psychological research into the division of labour in the home. Should I really be called upon to provide links and references for every point I make? My aim was deliberately to refute Mustatis' conclusions which he drew from his own anecdotal experiences, and I made that quite clear.

I will provide links but you have to promise you will read them. Otherwise a good summary of the last twenty years of this research can be found in Cordelia Fine's book Delusions of Gender. It's kind of my area.

Ok but you didn't say so. I'll take your word for research, no problem.

Don't be annoyed - it's merely a good natured discussion.

[cacian]

I embrace bacteria.

Haha does it embrace you though?:lol:
do you believe bacteria is natural to the human body?

[Scheherazade]

~

W a r n i n g

Please do not personalise your arguments or discuss each other.

Those who fail to show respect others' views will receive infraction points.

~

[Babyguile]

Tell that to the women and professors in my class on feminism. These aren't even my own theories, it was stuff I learned in class, stuff brought up by women way mor into the whole feminism thing.

Well 'feminists' is not a homogenous group and we don't have to agree with eachother. You can talk to feminists and get a range of views but I was drawing on peer-reviewed psychological research with no feminist agenda.

You didn't make any 'theories' you just recited a lot of misconceptions which are worryingly prevalent among conservatives (and conservative feminists), and they are attitudes which I think are damaging feminist progress. We have made some progress but not as much as you assumed, and as I said, you cannot expect to dispel gender perceptions and constructions in a generation or two. There is a lot of reform that hasn't even begun: areas where women don't even have the means to acheive "equality".

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Meh. I'm not going to go back and forth with you, Babyguile (I know you don't like me, so you're personal distaste of me will cloud the issue and render any valid points I make moot). Anyone who's been here as long as you should know I'm one of the biggest feminists on this board.


Ok but you didn't say so. I'll take your word for research, no problem.



I won't.

[Babyguile]

Anyone who's been here as long as you should know I'm one of the biggest feminists on this board.

Well it's nice to know you have good intentions.

[cacian]

Gender quarrels again haha. Where would we be without our differences?
I am guessing not very far.:D

[Darcy88]

Men and women are different and will have different tastes, predilections, ways of spending time. I've met amazing women, smart women, smarter than me, who aspired to be wives and mothers. Being a wife and a mother is the toughest job out there. Raising a kid right is TOUGH. The women who spend their time doing it should be respected, not demeaned.

This is my beef with some feminists.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/17927430.jpg

[Paulclem]

How annoying that you assumed I was being simply anecdotal :lol: ... I was drawing on a field of psychological research into the division of labour in the home. Should I really be called upon to provide links and references for every point I make? My aim was deliberately to refute Mustatis' conclusions which he drew from his own anecdotal experiences, and I made that quite clear.

I will provide links but you have to promise you will read them. Otherwise a good summary of the last twenty years of this research can be found in Cordelia Fine's book Delusions of Gender. It's kind of my area.

I still think the picture is much more complex than you originally said. It seems a simplification. Without putting yourself out, would you expand a little?

[JuniperWoolf]

It is true that most commercials put females into the cleaning/cooking role. When they use men, they always depict them as incompetant idiots. "Derp! Gee honey, instead of buying socks for the kids I just thought it would be a good idea to dip their feet in white paint but now there's paint all over the floor!" -actual commercial.


I never give up, if I can't open it I use the handle on a spoon and jam it under the lid to let some air in, that makes it easier. but that is a kind of a funny house call, 'hey can you open a jar for me?'

Haha I know, one of the women I asked was East Indian or something and didn't speak english very well, she thought I was giving her a jar of spaghetti sauce. She handed it back, "oh, no thank you!"


Well little lady, with that attitude you will never find yourself a respectable husband.

Haha, maybe my revulsion of housekeeping is the result of that subconcious plan.


Then why do women still do the majority of the housework even though they and their partners may both be working full-time? Women up and down your country and mine are still toiling through that unpaid 'second shift'.

Well why don't they just not do it?


Being a wife and a mother is the toughest job out there.

People are always saying that, it's so dishonest. I don't think being a stay-at-home mom in any way compares, in arduousness, physical danger, and/or potential for psychological trauma or burnout, to:

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_brit_soldier_afgha_1401835c.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=brit_soldier_afgha_1401835c.jpg)

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_emt-and-ambulance_4495.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=emt-and-ambulance_4495.jpg)

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_china-zoom2.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=china-zoom2.jpg)

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_busy-waitress-400x400.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=busy-waitress-400x400.jpg)

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_Volcanologist.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=Volcanologist.jpg)

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_longwa1.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=longwa1.jpg)

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_er_nurse.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=er_nurse.jpg)

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_femaleprisonguard.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=femaleprisonguard.jpg)

I mean sure, watching endless daytime tv and cleaning up after screaming brats is a boring and sh*tty (often literally) job, but "the toughest job out there?" I really don't think so. I don't get why it's supposed to be a big deal that women work anyway, my momma worked 50 hours/week and I've always done better in school and life than my classmates who had moms around the house all day. First she was a waitress (stressful job), and while she was waitressing she was studying to be an accounant because she had me when she was seventeen before she could go to college, and from the time I was sixteen on she worked at the havoc-riddled local wood mill as their accountant. My mother is the epitome of "hard work," it benefited me to see that growing up, and plus it made me proud of her.

[Helga]

I think women who decide to stay at home and raise kids should be respected for that choice but as Juniper said I don't think it's the toughest job. The women on the pictures above probably most of them have kids and do both. A tough job and raise kids.

When it comes to work or staying home people should be able to do what they want to.

Oh and by the way there are more than a few stay at home dads here on the ice.

Also somebody mentioned that men need to be complimented if they do a household chore, my ex was like that. If he vacuumed and I didn't say something the minuet I got home he'd be all upset and say' can't you see I vacuumed?' This annoyed me a lot so I started doing it all the time 'didn't you notice I cleaned the toilet?'

that stopped him.

[Pierre Menard]

It is true that most commercials put females into the cleaning/cooking role. When they use men, they always depict them as incompetant idiots. "Derp! Gee honey, instead of buying socks for the kids I just thought it would be a good idea to dip their feet in white paint but now there's paint all over the floor!" -actual commercial.

Reminds me of an ad over here in Australia for some kitchen appliance with the tagline "So simple, even a man could understand it"

[cacian]

Reminds me of an ad over here in Australia for some kitchen appliance with the tagline "So simple, even a man could understand it"
Interesting pun although who else is supposed to understand it if it was not a a person/man?
A screw and hammer?

[Darcy88]

It is true that most commercials put females into the cleaning/cooking role. When they use men, they always depict them as incompetant idiots. "Derp! Gee honey, instead of buying socks for the kids I just thought it would be a good idea to dip their feet in white paint but now there's paint all over the floor!" -actual commercial.



Haha I know, one of the women I asked was East Indian or something and didn't speak english very well, she thought I was giving her a jar of spaghetti sauce. She handed it back, "oh, no thank you!"



Haha, maybe my revulsion of housekeeping is the result of that subconcious plan.



Well why don't they just not do it?



People are always saying that, it's so dishonest. I don't think being a stay-at-home mom in any way compares, in arduousness, physical danger, and/or potential for psychological trauma or burnout, to:

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_brit_soldier_afgha_1401835c.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=brit_soldier_afgha_1401835c.jpg)

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_emt-and-ambulance_4495.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=emt-and-ambulance_4495.jpg)

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_china-zoom2.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=china-zoom2.jpg)

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_busy-waitress-400x400.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=busy-waitress-400x400.jpg)

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_Volcanologist.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=Volcanologist.jpg)

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_longwa1.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=longwa1.jpg)

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_er_nurse.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=er_nurse.jpg)

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_femaleprisonguard.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=femaleprisonguard.jpg)

I mean sure, watching endless daytime tv and cleaning up after screaming brats is a boring and sh*tty (often literally) job, but "the toughest job out there?" I really don't think so. I don't get why it's supposed to be a big deal that women work anyway, my momma worked 50 hours/week and I've always done better in school and life than my classmates who had moms around the house all day. First she was a waitress (stressful job), and while she was waitressing she was studying to be an accounant because she had me when she was seventeen before she could go to college, and from the time I was sixteen on she worked at the havoc-riddled local wood mill as their accountant. My mother is the epitome of "hard work," it benefited me to see that growing up, and plus it made me proud of her.

You have great genes and grew up in a small town environment and from what you say I gather that you had/have great parents. Your intellectual and moral success was a given.

In order to really respond I must go off on a rant about advertising. Picture me seated at a kitchen table, smoking a tobacco pipe, ranting lividly, pulling out my beard as I speak.

Kids today are crazy. We have 11 year old boys pressuring girls to perform sexual acts on them. We have homophobia beyond what should be tolerated. Kids today are wired to the hilt. Many are fat. Many do not play outside. I remember when the shift took place. I was about 12 years old. Playstation was invented. I was always a big gamer, but Sega had its limitations. After six hours of Sonic or Mortal Combat it got boring and so me and my friends would hop on our bikes and go tear around the roads and trails like the happy free-born children we were. But playstation was so awesome, so much more fun, we would never get bored. We began spending all our time INSIDE. Then the internet got big. I was one of the first kids to become an internet addict, because my brother got a computer from the home-schooling program. I would go on the original file-sharing programs for endless hours. Now, except in the summer or for weekend parties on the beach, we would never go outside. We started not getting exercise. I saw friends gain weight, develop psychological disorders, get lazy.

This is a case in point. In the 1950s you had every housewife watching television and being told she had to buy divers products that served no real purpose other than satisfying some inherent human craving to have and hoard. Often the husband could not afford to buy all these things, or he considered them useless, and so the woman would have to go get a job in order to buy all these things. The way the ads presented the products it made it seem like her very womanhood depended on her having all these things - cleaning products, clothing items, everything beyond the basics.

In my opinion a strong and happy and virile youth is one of the most beautiful things on this earth. There is so much hope and promise in youthful virtue. It takes a lot of effort to raise someone not to be lazy or bullying or idiotic. Society itself is insane and judgemental, it takes a lot of parenting to prevent children from falling prey to negative societal pressures.

My parents did a good job raising me, but television and the internet also played a major role in my mental formation. I'm not saying this is all bad, I love television and the internet, but I think it stunted my development. I often act like a teenager. I blame the fact that advertising ruined traditional family roles and so my mother was out working 40-50 hours a week, often 6 days a week, when she could have been tutoring me in math and telling me to be strong and virtuous and all that. Mostly I only had her example of hard-work and virtue and the actual lessons were not said. She was usually too tired from work.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

This whole mothering-as-hard-job conversation makes me think of this from one of my favorite stand-up comedians:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rwPg2oarG_c

"These mothers are bending over at the waist putting DVDs into DVD players. I don't know how they do it! . . . Any job you can do in your pajamas is not a difficult Job, alright?" :lol:

(And before someone gets their panties in a twist, remember that it's comedy.)

[Darcy88]

This whole mothering-as-hard-job conversation makes me think of this from one of my favorite stand-up comedians:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rwPg2oarG_c

"These mothers are bending over at the waist putting DVDs into DVD players. I don't know how they do it! . . . Any job you can do in your pajamas is not a difficult Job, alright?" :lol:

(And before someone gets their panties in a twist, remember that it's comedy.)

Just be careful with your jokes. Nowadays we must remain politically correct. At all costs. Even at the cost of truth.

True story. :party:

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Politically correct comedy is by far the worst comedy there is.

More of Burr's thoughts on women's issues. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr162OZ2Z0w

[Darcy88]

Politically correct comedy is by far the worst comedy there is.

More of Burr's thoughts on women's issues. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr162OZ2Z0w

He's pretty hilarious. He goes far. Some of his stuff freaks even me out and I say pretty freaky stuff often.

I am pro-equality between men and women. But I will not ignore and try to diminish the differences between the sexes. Men and women are different and the beauty of their union comes from this difference. They are perfectly complimentary, as God and Nature intended.

[Babyguile]

I am pro-equality between men and women. But I will not ignore and try to diminish the differences between the sexes. Men and women are different and the beauty of their union comes from this difference. They are perfectly complimentary, as God and Nature intended.

You buy into romantic myths and you prove this with almost every post you make.

[Darcy88]

You buy into romantic myths and you prove this with almost every post you make.

That's because I cause romantic myths. I am romantic. I spout romantic stuff to women like I'm making up sonnets on the fly. I go out and buy them random jewelry and flowers. When I love a girl I try to woo her like few other men these days try to woo.

And when I love a woman my love for that woman sticks through my breast plate and into my heart like a 12 inch pin that can't be taken out.

The myths are there for a reason. A lot of the reason women say things like you just said is that they have not met a guy like me to make them believe in romance again.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

That's because I cause romantic myths. I am romantic. I spout romantic stuff to women like I'm making up sonnets on the fly. I go out and buy them random jewelry and flowers. When I love a girl I try to woo her like few other men these days try to woo.

And when I love a woman my love for that woman sticks through my breast plate and into my heart like a 12 inch pin that can't be taken out.

The myths are there for a reason. A lot of the reason women say things like you just said is that they have not met a guy like me to make them believe in romance again.

And they won't meet that guy because they don't want to meet that guy. They're too attached to their militaristic feminist views.

[Darcy88]

And they won't meet that guy because they don't want to meet that guy. They're too attached to their militaristic feminist views.

Bingo Mutatis, bingo.

[Babyguile]

That's because I cause romantic myths. I am romantic. I spout romantic stuff to women like I'm making up sonnets on the fly. I go out and buy them random jewelry and flowers. When I love a girl I try to woo her like few other men these days try to woo.

And when I love a woman my love for that woman sticks through my breast plate and into my heart like a 12 inch pin that can't be taken out.

The myths are there for a reason. A lot of the reason women say things like you just said is that they have not met a guy like me to make them believe in romance again.


And they won't meet that guy because they don't want to meet that guy. They're too attached to their militaristic feminist views.


Bingo Mutatis, bingo.

'Yeah buddy! *high-five*'

http://s13.postimage.org/m97yd1o3r/w3rtyu.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

I can see what the two of you have done here: You've called me a militant feminist. You've brought me to the level of the children's playground (or the boardroom) and called me a naughty word: you've put me into a stereotype in order to shut down my argument so that if I did try and debate your points I would only be 'proving' how much of a 'militant feminist' I am. Very clever. If this is how people argue on the internet then I'm tempted to wash my hands of the activity altogether.

Your exchange, where you high-five eachother for making stereotypical, egotistical, self-aggrandizing jingo, has captured the essence of machismo perfectly. Nothing more does need to be said. Indeed female posters from different walks of life have, over the past two weeks, rebuked the opinions displayed on this forum which seemed to stereotype women, but the message clearly has not gotten through.

[Paulclem]

Would you expand on our previous discussion? I asked in a post on the previous page.

[Babyguile]

Would you expand on our previous discussion? I asked in a post on the previous page.

No. I don't think there is a worthy enough audience on here.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Would you expand on our previous discussion? I asked in a post on the previous page.

She (or he, it's still undetermined) has better stuff to do atop the giant pedestal.

[Paulclem]

No. I don't think there is a worthy enough audience on here.

Worthy? Ok. Just asking.

[Darcy88]

'Yeah buddy! *high-five*'

http://s13.postimage.org/m97yd1o3r/w3rtyu.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

I can see what the two of you have done here: You've called me a militant feminist. You've brought me to the level of the children's playground (or the boardroom) and called me a naughty word: you've put me into a stereotype in order to shut down my argument so that if I did try and debate your points I would only be 'proving' how much of a 'militant feminist' I am. Very clever. If this is how people argue on the internet then I'm tempted to wash my hands of the activity altogether.

Your exchange, where you high-five eachother for making stereotypical, egotistical, self-aggrandizing jingo, has captured the essence of machismo perfectly. Nothing more does need to be said. Indeed female posters from different walks of life have, over the past two weeks, rebuked the opinions displayed on this forum which seemed to stereotype women, but the message clearly has not gotten through.

Your attitude here presents a kind of McCarthyism. You are getting all indignant and self-righteous because you disagree with Mutatis and I.

By the way - I wasn't even referring to you when I made that comment.

Calm down. Debate is not about paranoia and bitterness. You have insulted this entire forum.

This kind of attitude you have is the result of industrialization and consumerism. Rather than women taking care of the home they are expected to compete with men for jobs and if they do not do it they are made to feel impotent and lazy and like they are second class. The attitude which attempts to make women non-nurturers and instead only consumers is in reality a powerful process of DEFEMINIZATION.