Dawin's Regret

[dizzydoll]

Dawin's Regret

My mind has changed during the last twenty or thirty years... Now for many years I cannot endure to read a line of poetry… I have also almost lost any taste for pictures or music… My mind seems to have become a kind of machine for grinding general laws out of large collections of facts...

If I had to live my life again I would have made a rule to read some poetry and listen to some music at least once every week… The loss of these tastes is a loss of happiness, and may possibly be injurious to the intellect, and more probably to the moral character, by enfeebling the emotional part of our nature.

Don't let this happen to you. :yikes:

[JuniperWoolf]

"Dawin?"

Also, this has nothing to do with religion.

[dizzydoll]

Sure but since there seems to be such an imbalance between religion and science I found his words pretty profound and therefore wanted to share. He did attend church to the end, and that too is an eyeopener as most credible scientists today do not attend church.


"Science has nothing to do with Christ, except insofar as the habit of scientific research makes a man cautious in admitting evidence. For myself, I do not believe that there ever has been any revelation. As for a future life, every man must judge for himself between conflicting vague probabilities."
Charles Darwin

Sorry if posting this thread was out of line :D

[kiki1982]

:confused:

Any credible scientist does not attend church?

:hand: (I love those new smilies!)

What about Catholic universities in Europe then? They do embryo-research there, as far as I am aware. Microbiology and the like. They even have paleonthology on their list of subjects.

While it is sad that Darwin actually went away from any art and got burried in science, I don't think that has anything to do with the concept of science as such.

One is able to believe in God and consider evolution as truth (though some of it still has to be really proven). The existence of God has nothing to do with evolution, although some might claim it does. Even the pope has acknowledged that. (already in the 70s I believe, please correct me if I am wrong).

It is perfectly possible to believe in God and practice or enjoy art AND to consider science as something good, great and improving.

But maybe this should be in the Serious Discussion forum or something. Although, we have probably had this a few times now.

[JCamilo]

Darwin did not attend to churches at the end, did not regreted because of his studies, neither ceased to be an atheist. He was however considerably more caring and tolerant than some people as he held the publication of his studies for years afraid of hurting his wife, a religous woman. That is respect.

[mal4mac]

Even Richard Dawkins admits that credible scientists attend Church! Even some top scientists. But, as he argues in the God Delusion, many are atheists who just go for the poetry and ambience (e.g., Martin Rees.)

[dizzydoll]

If you think about it, what do we really know? I feel we [society] are only at the beginning of our evolution. Surely a warmongering bunch like ourselves still have a ways to go, if we consider there has to be a purpose to life. After all we only discovered DNA ten minutes ago, what marvelous discoveries must await us in the next 20-30 years.

Science and religion really should learn to cohabit peacefully. I believe we have a soul [old soul] but as science already knows I cannot prove it. But there is other stuff science accepts without prove, like intuition, so eventually they will come around to accept we have souls, I believe. Religion too, as one member stated, the Pope is showing an interest in science. This is good news too. Eventually. Imagine if they had caught Isaac Newton for heresy we would all still be floating in the sky. lol


:smilielol5:


The loss of these tastes is a loss of happiness, and may possibly be injurious to the intellect, and more probably to the moral character, by enfeebling the emotional part of our nature.

This part of his comment stuck out for me. I have no doubt intellectual people often deny the emotional sides of their characters. Its in our emotions that we find our spirituality, not in our logic. It seems like Mr Darwin discovered this shortcoming late in life.

:hand:

[Babbalanja]

This part of his comment stuck out for me. I have no doubt intellectual people often deny the emotional sides of their characters. Its in our emotions that we find our spirituality, not in our logic. It seems like Mr Darwin discovered this shortcoming late in life.What you mean is our rational side usually has to be shut off before we think we're addressing our "spirituality."

If you ever actually read Darwin, you'll find an imagination consumed with possibilities and an intellect striving to expand our horizons. I think Darwin wrote the manifesto of the quintessential modern writer and seeker in The Origin of Species.

And incidentally, what we find more often in our emotions is our wishful thinking, our prejudices, and our capacity for self-delusion.

Regards,

Istvan

[dizzydoll]

And incidentally, what we find more often in our emotions is our wishful thinking, our prejudices, and our capacity for self-delusion.

Absolutely you are 100% correct in part, but that is not the true definition of emotion and therefore they should not be discounted for the reasons you provide. Can you think of other areas where emotions can be of value? :rolleyes:


What you mean is our rational side usually has to be shut off before we think we're addressing our "spirituality."

You express yourself much better than I do. I am not as fluent as you. :smile5:

[Niamh]

moved to serious discussions forum from religious texts forum.

[dizzydoll]

Cool :D

[MarkBastable]

I have no doubt intellectual people often deny the emotional sides of their characters.


Why do you have no doubt about that? What has convinced you?

[dizzydoll]

Just an observation. People seem to be either emotional or logical, neither seem comfortable to stray to the other side of the fence. Is it not true that emotional people feel things and logical people think things? Can you provide an example of a logical person who was emotionally inclined? or vise versa?

Of course when it comes to passion, both the logical and emotional person is capable of this.

enquiring minds
:Angel_anim:

[MarkBastable]

Just an observation. People seem to be either emotional or logical, neither seem comfortable to stray to the other side of the fence. Can you give me an example of a logical person who was emotionally inclined? or vise versa?

enquiring minds :Angel_anim:



You started out saying 'intellectual' and now you're saying 'logical'. Which do you mean?

[Babbalanja]

dizzydoll,

Since you posted the OP to denigrate an author whose work you don't understand, perhaps you should be less concerned with emotions and more with getting acquainted with an imagination whose ideas continue to inspire:


It is interesting to contemplate an entangled bank, clothed with many plants of many kinds, with birds singing on the bushes, with various insects flitting about, and with worms crawling through the damp earth, and to reflect that these elaborately constructed forms, so different from each other, and dependent on each other in so complex a manner, have all been produced by laws acting around us. These laws, taken in the largest sense, being Growth with Reproduction; inheritance which is almost implied by reproduction; Variability from the indirect and direct action of the external conditions of life, and from use and disuse; a Ratio of Increase so high as to lead to a Struggle for Life, and as a consequence to Natural Selection, entailing Divergence of Character and the Extinction of less-improved forms. Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows. There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.

Regards,

Istvan

[dizzydoll]

oops I was editing my post when you slipped in again.lol


You started out saying 'intellectual' and now you're saying 'logical'. Which do you mean?

Both I suppose. And you never answered my questions. Is it not true that emotional people feel things and logical people think things? Can you provide an example of a logical person who was emotionally inclined? or vise versa?

...

I agree Istvan, and thats why I brought this topic here. To discover others views. This is just a simple girls opinion now but that quote you provide started out poetic and then it switched to analytical. As he said, he would have enjoyed poetry if he had taken the time.

[billl]

I think Martin Luther King, Jr. would be an example of someone who could be described as logical/rational, as well as a person with emotional depth. I think there are a lot of such people (I mean, logical and 'emotional') in the world, and everyone probably knows quite a few. More obvious examples would be people working in an organizing capacity for certain non-profits/charities. But even a compassionate or empathetic task-master/boss would serve well enough as an example, in my opinion. Probably a majority of good coaches and managers would have the capacity to work in both realms (logical and emotional). A good physician would, as well.

I think there might be some confusion here because the phrase 'an emotional person' often might be used to indicate someone who would be irrational, or unstable--it is a sort of stereotype. But, of course, this discussion would hopefully be addressing something more than such an extreme. Similarly, I think a rational person would generally be capable of having a rich emotional life--they wouldn't necessarily devalue emotions (theirs or others).

Is an "emotionally-inclined" person necessarily a person who is unable to control their emotions, or vulnerable to breakdowns or emotional manipulation, etc? If so, then there's a huge gap between them, and the self-conception we see in Darwin's lament.

[dizzydoll]

I see your point Bill and of course you make perfect sense. But still, I feel people lean more in one area than others. I dont believe anyone is able to be "all logic" or "all emotion" all of the time. And naturally I dont refer to any extreme either side of this coin. Most people either feel things or think things first and foremost but it doesnt mean that capacity is restricted to either feeling or thought.


I think a rational person would generally be capable of having a rich emotional life--they wouldn't necessarily devalue emotions
true but as a rational person he thinks things out rather than relying on his feeling. Its got nothing to do with not having emotions.

Our friend Mr Darwin was more logical than emotional IMO, but again that doesnt mean he didnt have emotions

:cool:

[Babbalanja]

I agree Istvan, and thats why I brought this topic here. To discover others views. This is just a simple girls opinion now but that quote you provide started out poetic and then it switched to analytical. As he said, he would have enjoyed poetry if he had taken the time.I'm glad I could contribute to what little you know about Darwin.

Regards,

Istvan

[dizzydoll]

Thank you Istvan :wave: and please feel free to add other creative ideas that Darwin brings to the table.

If I had not been reading a spiritual website I would have not come across his comment. I too am pleased that I did but no doubt for different reasons.

[OrphanPip]

Seems to me that Darwin was lamenting being a workaholic not being overly rational.

It is an absurd caricature of scientist to suggest that they all behave and believe like Vulcans out of Star Trek. Scientist have lives outside of science with their friends, family, and lovers. An inclination for reading poetry is no test of the "emotional" capacity of an individual.

[JuniperWoolf]

Seems to me that Darwin was lamenting being a workaholic not being overly rational.

Exactly. This quote displays an imbalance between work and fun, not science and religion (or rationality and spirituality).

[dizzydoll]

An inclination for reading poetry is no test of the "emotional" capacity of an individual.

I disagree as any poet will know, one has to dig deep emotionally to touch the hearts and souls of others. As Darwin noted this as his Regrets, who are we to doubt him?

[kiki1982]

I agree with OprhanPip and Juniperwoolf.

But on the same note, I just want to add an observation of mine.

A lot of professors, a lot of professional people who are not busy with art, but rather with science, logical things, have hobbies that tend to the emotional side. Prime ministers paint, other politicians play the piano. The other day one of the two most well-known weather forcasters in Begium admitted to being an avid piano-player. One of the eldest politicians in the country (his career is over now) has started career as Jazz pianist.

My father is a civil engineer (very theoretical) and he designs the electronic make-up of brail-printers, yet he is the most avid lover of art you can imagine.

Leonardo Da Vinci is a good example too: he was very much busy with science, but made the most beautiful paintings. Yet, he was an inventor.

So, no, scientists are not unable to have an emotional side.

[dizzydoll]

There are a few Kiki but dont you think the vast majority pigeon-hole themselves into one extreme or the other?

[dizzydoll]

It is an absurd caricature of scientist to suggest that they all behave and believe like Vulcans out of Star Trek.

I am not a movie boff. Lets just say I dont know the depth of the dimension you live in and nor do you know mine. There are those who rely more on rational [also know as common sense] and then there are those [who go against advice given] who rely more on their intuition, which usually pays off with surprising results. The former relies on thought processes, the latter on feeling.

This thread keeps heading towards "emotions", which its too broad a word. How he felt is a much better way of looking at Darwin's regret.

[MarkBastable]

There are a few Kiki but dont you think the vast majority pigeon-hole themselves into one extreme or the other?

No. I have noticed, though, that people who regard themselves as heavily-biased one way or the another tend to think that everyone else is too.

[dizzydoll]

Oh I didnt think I was being baised, only offering my views.. but then if I am biased, as you say, then I'm probably incapable of seeing it. :crazy:

[MarkBastable]

Incidentally, here's a pretty amazing marriage of the creative and the mathematical (http://strangepaths.com/canon-1-a-2/2009/01/18/en/), which I think demonstrates emotional and logical talents being simultaneously applied.

In fact, I think that many people hugely underestimate the role of the intellectual and logical in the creative process. In my experience many readers, for instance, are almost offended to discover the extent to which a novel is the result of analytical and structural processes.

[Niamh]

Seems to me that Darwin was lamenting being a workaholic not being overly rational.

It is an absurd caricature of scientist to suggest that they all behave and believe like Vulcans out of Star Trek. Scientist have lives outside of science with their friends, family, and lovers. An inclination for reading poetry is no test of the "emotional" capacity of an individual.


Exactly. This quote displays an imbalance between work and fun, not science and religion (or rationality and spirituality).

I couldnt agree with you both more! Darwin spent so much time working that he's regreting not getting to enjoy the other things in life like reading. He's saying if he had the chance to go back he'd make sure he added a healthy dose of enjoyment and pleasure to his week.

Faraday is a good example of having a life outside of science. He was devoted to his religion and his family and spent much time socialising with friends. He always seemed to devote time to it especially after his meltdown.

[Katy North]

I have a feeling that if you took the time to read books by scientists, dizzy, you would find that they are as passionate about science as you are about poetry.

You may also find that there are more poets and artists with an analytical approach to their art than you might think...

Everyone is human; a mix of emotionality and rationality. Some may lean more one way than the other, but doing so does not decide one's profession, preferences, or how likable they are.

[kiki1982]

There are a few Kiki but dont you think the vast majority pigeon-hole themselves into one extreme or the other?

No, as MarkBastable. I would rather argue the opposite: that there are very few people who only do the one or the other.

Niamh summed it up.

I suppose there are more examples in orderto prove you wrong, than there are to prove you right...

[OrphanPip]

I have a feeling that if you took the time to read books by scientists, dizzy, you would find that they are as passionate about science as you are about poetry.


You're absolutely right Katy. I didn't spend several years of my life getting a B. Sci. because I'm a robot and the arts simply repulsed me. I decided to study science because I love to understand how things function, and I'm fascinated particularly with biological systems. Moreover, they don't do it for money because science doesn't pay, most scientist live out an unremarkable life of toil for ****ty pay to advance our knowledge just a smidgen and never get any recognition. Even scientist doing remarkable things never get any more recognition than a blurb in a popular science magazine. Not to mention people like me, lab technicians, who just do technical work and not research. Although, to be honest I'm constantly on the lookout for a way out of lab work.

[JuniperWoolf]

I have a feeling that if you took the time to read books by scientists, dizzy, you would find that they are as passionate about science as you are about poetry.

Oh yeah, that's definately true. In fact, I find that scientists generally tend to be really funny and you can feel their passion through the pages. They also have a pretty wide range of knowledge in the arts, you can find references to classical mythology and literature in practically every branch of science.

Hey pip - how about field work? Collecting data and stuff like that. I've always thought that sounded like a fun job, you'd be bored by the repitition but you'd get to live outside and have adventures.

[OrphanPip]

Hey pip - how about field work? Collecting data and stuff like that. I've always thought that sounded like a fun job, you'd be bored by the repitition but you'd get to live outside and have adventures.

I'm hoping to win the lottery and retire at 23, that would be fantastic.

[dizzydoll]

:hurray: Wow this thread is hot :mad5:... so coool

I agree scientists have to be open to new ideas and changes, they are logical intellectuals and I have noticed many are a lot of fun to be around. On the other hand accountants are logical intellectuals who are no fun to be around. lol

At times I am open to the point of foolishness... but wouldnt change a thing, watching or reading others reactions is what tickles my fancy. lol


All the world is a stage
and all the men and women
merely players
They have their exits
and their entrances
And one man in his time
plays many parts

But since we are on the subject of Darwin..... I enjoy your feedback:D

[dizzydoll]

Incidentally, here's a pretty amazing marriage of the creative and the mathematical (http://strangepaths.com/canon-1-a-2/2009/01/18/en/), which I think demonstrates emotional and logical talents being simultaneously applied.

:hurray: that is delightful Mark, thank you for sharing... now thats fun, if I hadnt been here I would have missed it :thumbsup:

I think Darwin would have loved this:
Philosophy for Old Age (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=gmail&attid=0.1&thid=1276c014008395e1&mt=application/vnd.ms-powerpoint&url=https://mail.google.com/mail/%3Fui%3D2%26ik%3Daede565197%26view%3Datt%26th%3D12 76c014008395e1%26attid%3D0.1%26disp%3Dattd%26zw&sig=AHIEtbQ8etSNVsbDlVT4z4b3fNiIY_bGSw&pli=1)

:iagree: