Would a Sane Man...

[Nax]

Sanity.

Its something we deal with every single day. Recently I have had to address to myself whether or not I was in fact sane. A difficult thing to do, seeing as every single mind is different, and basically every personality trait be it benificial or negative can be a symptom of countless mental "illnesses" with the only diagnosis being that which you tell them, not the other way around.

Am I insane, or just unique? Are they the same thing? When does one stop being sane and different and become insane? Are we all insane just to varying degrees?

Is it defined by only negative symptoms? Can we not have these exact symptoms and still be "sane"? What if the illness has negative effects but also lots of positive ones and the person is still able to function but with a lessoned quality of life? What if rectifying the negative also destroys the positive?

We as intellectuals seem particularily prone to be stricken with mental illness, and it is believed many of the great minds before us too struggled with these before they were more widely known. Is insanity a bad thing? If it can be used to create works of art and literature, is it still appropriate to medicate?

These and many more questions have been playing on my brain for the last 7 years. The line between sanity and insanity is so blurred, and our minds so complex and varied that I have spent the greater part of a decade fighting the fact that I do in fact have a mental illness. The symptoms are now too many to deny any longer. On monday I will be going to a clinic, and the following week the GP. Time to put a name to these demons.

I would like here to discuss other peoples thoughts, experiences, advice etc on sanity, mental illness, or even lack there of.

[Nietzsche]

I'm not sure if you have to be crazy to be an intellectual, or if being an intellectual drives you crazy.

EDIT: anyone who knows anything about my screen name knows he went mad eventually. Also my idol Nikola Tesla was sort of disturbed.

[BienvenuJDC]

Are they even related?

Are there intellectuals who are not crazy? Maybe crazies that are no intellectuals?
What is the common relationship between the two....if any?

[OrphanPip]

Insanity isn't really an informative term. People can suffer from clinical depression, dementia, delusions, post-traumatic stress or paranoid schizophrenia and we can pinpoint symptoms, effects, and treatments. Just labeling someone as insane tells us nothing at all.

[Nax]

For intellectuals you sure do miss the point by miles when you want to dont ya.

[OrphanPip]

For intellectuals you sure do miss the point by miles when you want to dont ya.

Well I would have to have a working description of insanity before I could say if insanity is good or bad. However, working from the assumption that insanity is a mental disorder which causes harm to the individual suffering it in and of itself, as opposed to harm due to stigma. Then I would say insanity is in general bad, far more people suffering from bipolar disorder have harmed themselves and others from a lack of treatment than have created great works of art.

Edit: Although, I'll repeat that I object to the use of the word "insane".

[Gladys]

Perhaps psychological insanity, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. If you (or others) consider yourself insane, I guess it is so.

I'm yet to meet someone insane, which may say something about me.

I read recently that a decade from now half the adult population will have suffered, at sometime, from mental illness. Surely mental illness is becoming part of the human condition?

[MrRegular]

Can I say that I think that Nietzsche is a perfect example of this 'intellect gone bad' syndrome?
Another example I have is myself, over the years I've become enchanted with several languages and scientific disiplines. This means a great deal of vocabularies to manage, sometimes even sharing the same words but in entirely different uses. It seems that the more I learn about the world in general, or the more information I have at my disposal, the harder it is for me to grasp any particular bit of it.
So it is no surprise to me that intellectuals are prone to mental illness because with so much information to be sifted through its easy for even the most perspicatious mind to flounder.
In regards to this being increasingly prevalent in modern society it must be pointed out that modern man requires a much higher rate of informational traffic in order to survive in our technological society.

[Jozanny]

Let me stress first that I do not have Orphan's scientific training, but agree with her that insanity is neither medically nor legally useful. Indeed, an insanity defense in a criminal trial is nearly impossible to win even if a hypothetical client has a known severe diagnosis, like a psychotic personality disorder.

I worked in MH, and developed an adjustment disorder, but I am not clinically unstable, and I tend to share Foucault's anger at psychiatry. A lot of it is crap trying to contain behavior that makes society uncomfortable. Poverty, if it is systemic, can make a mood disorder uncurable, as can permanent disability.

I do not mean to sound too forceful here, but not even the young should romanticize mental illness. Very few who manifest a serious disease can reintegrate into society, even less so than a smart disabled woman like myself. I realize it is a nice literary trope to toy with, but up close and personal, it breaks your heart.

[Lokasenna]

It's important to draw a distinction between mere eccentricity and actual mental illness. I suspect that to be a dedicated intellectual requires a certain degree of eccentricity in view of its rather esoteric nature.

Mental illness, however, is a serious problem. My family on my father's side seems to have a genetic predisposition towards it - a great-aunt, a great-uncle and two cousins of mine have all had to be permanently committed to mental instituions (one of the cousins, in particular, did terrible, terrible things and must never be allowed into society). Even beyond that, and though it has never been diagnosed, I am convinced (along with basically everyone else in my family) that my aunt and (to a slightly lesser degree) grandmother, when she was alive, were text-book sociopaths.

All this makes for a very turbulent family history - living with mental illness can be very, very hard.

[Heathcliff]

Everyone is different. Even the most ordinary looking people can be off their rocker on the inside. We're all a little odd, so what really is insane?

There are mental illnesses that don't qualify as insanity.
Schizophrenia (however you spell it), is that insanity?
Dementia?
Pyromania?

Also there is insane by social standards, medical, legal.

[Katy North]

I had a close family member who had a mental illness for the better part of a year for medical reasons.

She hurt most of my family, and nearly drove me insane because I was so used to her being right that, at the time, I listened to her and somewhat believed her accusations against friends and family. She's much better now, but her bout of insanity nearly permanently damaged my relationship with her. She too believed her insanity helped her art.

Being insane (in other words, mentally ill) is no laughing matter. Certainly there were some artists and authors who created beautiful works because of their insanity. However, there were also plenty of sane people who created impressive works of art. If you are ever tempted to persist in insane behavior because you think it makes you a better artist, please, go on the internet and write a list of some of the the hundreds of sane artists in the world... Dickens, Austen, Da Vinci, etc.

I would say the difference between insane and sane and different is this... if you answer yes to the following questions you might need mental help, and will experience no positive benefits by avoiding it. (this is from experience, I am not a psychologist).

Are you unable to function well outside your home?
Do you hurt people around you because you cannot control what you say or do?
Do you believe things are true that an overwhelming number of people say are false (for example, they say it's impossible to speak with dead relatives, but you know for a fact that you speak to your great aunt sally every morning before breakfast)?
Are you unusually paranoid about seeking psychological help?

[Jozanny]

Well Heath, not that I want to play pin the tail on the donkey in terms of the worst disease, but schizophrenia in some ways is more disabling than many congenital conditions I know of, and yes, people who have it are sick. I tried to date a co-worker who was a paranoid schizophrenic, and it was a mistake, as even when they are on meds, having a healthy relationship with someone that delusional is near impossible. They may be employable to various degrees, but without significant support they usually fail.

He and I ran into each other after the Institute dissolved, and he tried to ask me out again, and this time I took a hands off approach, and even the act of calling me to cancel caused him a heroic effort.

It is people like me who can be made *sick* by the system. We don't really have mental disease, but conditions are such that we become ill. Cases like mine are trickier for modern witch doctors with their check lists, and at the end of the day I will probably lose in the autonomy battle, and my landlord will no doubt get me placed, and the institutional staff will no doubt medicate me, eventually. It isn't something I look forward to, but some of my friends with cerebral palsy have been dying off in ways that are unpleasant, depress me, and I don't want to experience, but I also know I cannot attempt to kill myself, so I guess the best I can do is cross my fingers and hope fate gives me a break when the time comes. I have been very strong and endured too much, in my book, but I am getting tired of holding up with whatever stoicism I've managed up to this point.

[Nax]

I suppose insane is a too strong a term. I should have said mental illness, but I merely was trying to keep the terms open as not to limit the discussion.

To be honest I really have no doubt that I have a serious condition, and now I am just taking the appropriate steps to protect myself and others before it gets too severe. Uptil this point I have been able to control many of the symptoms to a point, though I have felt myself beginnign to slip the last few months, posssibly due to some of the emotional hardships recently. As more symptoms have begun arrising and not ebating as I had hoped, I would rather do something now while I am of a stable mind.

It has taken me this long because it is very difficult even in your own mind to distinguish where the illness stops and you begin. You wonder, am I sick or is this just who I am? Which is why so many people go untreated, and eventually get so much worse.

[Jozanny]

Nax: As the saying goes, a little education can be a dangerous thing, and I am fully aware that my knowledge of my own symptomology is not a cure. I am just a b----- and a stubborn one at that, and have held off my landlord for a long time, and in fact I have decided to sue them, which actually might, for me, be good therapy :rolleyes:.

But if there are things happening and you do not wish to self-medicate, hey, like Dr. House says, half the country is on some form of Zolcroft, so, if you have insurance to cover some clinical visits, use it.

Some conditions can and do improve, although with depression I'd say that depends on how long the person has sustained a depressive state and to what degree it does not interfere with function. I am a bit wordy here despite my aches, and I apologize, but this is a topic I know about, and as a former advocate, I care about it as well.

[Katy North]

Be careful of Zoloft, that's part of the reason my family member went batty... she was on it for years and then decided to stop taking it all of a sudden. If you go on it, you have to stay on it and only come off of it slowly with a doctors help.

[JuniperWoolf]

I won't post your diagnosis because you made me promise not to talk about it, but you really don't have to worry about telling the people here what you are. They're pretty bright (well, the vast majority of them are) and they can offer some good advice... plus, we don't know them anyway. No harm done.

I'll just say though, he's not talking about some common depression or anxiety disorder. His condition is pretty severe.

[Nax]

Well I wanted to wait till I got an official diagnosis before I posted it up here, as I figured without that I would most likely be made out as a fool or being overdramatic.

The last couple days since I made the appointment (which is on thurs next week) have been pretty rough. Spare Juniperwoolf no one in my life knows about it yet. My Dad just thinks I have depression (because I was too scared to tell them everything) and my friends are all guys, and guys have a tendency to either not understand or not believe. I think there will be alot of people surprised when it does come to light, as Ive expended a great portion of my energy hiding it from everyone, tho I think recently my friends may suspect something is up, as I have been slipping and unable to contain all of the symptoms.

I was ashamed really. Because I am supposed to be the rock, I am the steady constant in everyones life, Im dependable and earnest. I am the shining example of my family aswell, life somewhat on track compared to my sisters. I wonder if I will still hold those places.

Im sorry if I am using this thread a bit like a blog, but my head is all muddled and twisted up and through this (and your experiences) I am trying to find some sort of path through the dark quagmire.

[Katy North]

I'm sorry if my first post seemed overly critical or insensitive of your actual condition.

My biggest recommendation is to be dedicated to getting better, whether this be through psychiatrists, counseling, sharing with friends or family, or doing whatever you need to do to focus your energy on getting yourself out of it.

Please tell your parents the reality of your condition... they may end up being less understanding if they think your condition is less serious than it actually is. A good way to go about doing this is inviting your parents to a session with your counselor or psychiatrist.

You will still be a good example to everyone who cares about you, because, IN SPITE OF YOUR ILLNESS you are still a shining example excelling in life, and being a constant supportive member of your family. There is no reason to be ashamed of needing support every now and then, it is part of what makes us human.

[NikolaiI]

I define insanity in terms of the negative effects, and actions. I wouldn't use the word insane to describe anyone, though. I would almost say being mean is insane. :p

Another thing is how you feel. How you are by yourself and in your own mind. Most people are normal. I think that most chemical inbalances in the brain are caused by environment and behavior. I would say that a lot of people who are unbalanced chose to be that way. However there are certainly those who had no cause at all - but another cause for mental inbalances are when people are abused by others for long periods of time, especially when young. This I believe is a big cause of mental illness.

There is one person who I know who has had mental illness all her life. She fears noises of all kinds, keys jingling, bells, alarms, she is very anxious, she is afraid of people and many situations. She also doesn't go out much because she doesn't believe she can walk very much without hurting her feet. All of these things keep her at home most of the time. She is also paranoid that the FBI is after her. But above all of these things, about her I would say one thing stands out, which is just a sense I get about her, that she isn't well centered. She doesn't know where her center is. It's hard to describe it.

But... how to describe it... this is an issue with us all. When we're at our best, we're centered and we're not upset by anything. But when we're not, then we're more easily upset. And whether one is sane or not, that would be, whether they are balanced, centered.

The other thing, again, is how you feel. If you feel happy then you are, and if you feel at peace you are. A lot of the insanity in the world comes from the negativity which we throw at each other whenever someone says "I found peace."

[Jozanny]

Nax, if you do not want to share this as personal information, your diagnosis, do not feel that you have to. I am one of *those* posters who lack reticence, a fault that makes me annoying to some, but in truth I talk about being a disabled American and writer to try to make people aware that minorities still suffer, but not everyone is a let it all hang out type person, so do not feel you have to tell it all, but do not feel alone either and drop the shame. Brains get sick, and they can get better as well, but I do my best never to judge, and if you need to post, feel free. You can pm me too. I do not know much about the Australian system but I have an online contact who has cerebral palsy who does (we are like lodge members) and I am sure she would assist me if she is around.

I caution though that I am not a therapist. My job involved integrating the disabled and mental health clients back into the work force, but I can listen and assist with resources if you like. You can get through this, in any case.

[Nax]

Hmm all good posts. Ball a-be-a-rollin now.

I do intend to tell my parents the entirety of the situation, however until I have a definate answer I dont want to cause them any unnessicary stress and woe. The mindfield of mental illness diagnosis can be pretty complex. Even though I know something is wrong, it could be something serious and singular, or a group of things all combined. Either way, I feel it best to wait. Ive held off on telling them the magnitude of the situation this far, so unless I was at a crisis point they will do well to wait a bit longer.

Your last paragraph was inspiring Katy thank you for that.

Nikolai, luckily for me I am not yet at a state where keys frighten me and government organizations are watching me, and I do not wish to get to that point. I do however see shades of that in my behaviour which is why I am seeking help now while I am still centred enough to do so. Some of these behaviours have led me to do things which have been very benificial to people around me, while others have resulted in me emotionally damaging loved ones and past friends. Though I think if untreated, eventually even the benificial behaviours would degenerate to a point where I was no longer good to anyone and just a delusional wreck.

As for my thoughts when I am alone, they are not good, which is why I tend to try not to be alone for any period of time. I very quickly get very depressed and anxious, which triggers other behaviours in me which can be construed as good and bad also. I can become completely obsessed by things very easily. Great when you need a hobby to pass the time, or want to learn a new skill. Terrible when you are so poor that you live on bread and spreads because you spend every dollar you have trying to sate this obsession. It also causes me to become very spontaneous. I will reach a point of unhappiness where I will literally do or change anything to get out. Resulting in moving to a new town or going on some other completely illogical but fun adventure, or tossing aside someone you love deeply with hardly a thought (until the episode passes atleast, then comes the remorse, anxiety, greif, and shame) just because you know it will cause an environment shift in your life.

Sorry to be so ellusive, but much like my parents, until thursday of next week (or later possibly) I wont know for sure, so I would rather not discuss my guesses until I know for sure, lest the thread degrade into some sort of tangent completely irrelevant to the actual matter at hand. Till then I would rather keep everything broad and open and continue the already splended contributions of the Lit-Netters.

[NikolaiI]

I understand, Nax.

I had a brush with anxiety when I was younger... it lasted for two years or so... it was brought about by nothing much... sort of a delayed reaction to some emotional trauma perhaps. When it happened I became terribly anxious around other people... especially strangers and in school and in a type of situation like a store. It was physiological rather than psychological. I say that because mentally I was fine, but I would have physiological reactions to these types of situations, and because of that it became mental. In my worst state, I would flinch even when others were around, did or said anything. I could hardly speak at all. It felt like suffering but it was really only in my head.

It was my own mind which told me I couldn't speak. And to speak gave me the greatest anxiety possible... it was speaking... to others, and having that communication... and since I thought I couldn't speak... speaking seemed to give me suffering because of the anxiety I felt... therefore there was more anxiety because I couldn't speak! I couldn't express myself...

And then gradually I began to see... how people were such idiots.. only what I mean is... how they would yell at each other, say hurtful things to each other... how could they do such a stupid thing with the amazing gift of speech? I felt as though they were completely ungrateful...

And the thing is -- this was a new thing for me...I remember, I came back to my home town to visit my friends... dear friends of mine all of them... and four of my friends, or five, came to pick me up at the airport... and all of this anxiety had happened to me since I saw them last. And there was one of their new friends I hadn't met yet, Karson.

And I was so anxious in the car... and I was having difficulty speaking and I was flinching now and then... again I thought I was suffering, etc... and then one friend and I had a brief and somewhat awkward conversation about a leather jacket he had given me a while ago... it was a wonderful jacket and I loved it.. and yet... I don't remember the details... somehow I just referred to it as "That jacket." And then he again referred to it as "that jacket," with a sort of inflection or something, questioning if I didn't like it.. but I didn't know how to tell him that I really liked it...

And there were other bits of conversation which were quite painful, which I don't remember... --- remember, all of this completely, utterly unnecessary... I wasn't doing any of this by acting or trying to get attention, yet it was completely the situation that it was all centered on me... there was nothing at all wrong with the situation, whatsoever... completely normal situation, and they came to see me and they were glad to see me and they were all dear to me... even their friend whom I hadn't met, I quickly liked him...

I cannot describe very well the scene. But I was in the greatest anxiety... the thing is, it was all captured in the exchange between me and my friend who gave me the jacket... I couldn't communicate... I really couldn't... only because of my mental block to it... and then my friend thought I didn't like the jacket, etc..

Anyway perhaps needless to say... at some point then... after so much of this, then I just began crying... a lot... and.. I was grieiving a lot... and my friends... they realized this and they treated me so, so, so kindly... and gave me so much love... and they understood me completely.. finally.. not that I didn't like them.. but they realized the state I was in... even though it was for no reason at all...

And later at different times they showed me the same kindness and love... at the time it moved me to even more tears, this time tears of gladness and gratefulness to them.. that even though I couldn't speak, and I was in such great distress... we never lost a connection, and perhaps at that time we had a very deep connection... it was the most honest communication I had ever experienced up to that time, and it was more deeply meaningful than I can describe.

One friend of mine who had been a friend since childhood later said, when I was asking him about it... something like... "We know you didn't do or say anything... mean, or... it's not that you didn't like us... we understand... and about it, we don't care about that.." basically is what he said... what he said exactly was "we don't care about that."

Another thing that was happening to me at this time was I would gulp... that is... involuntarily swallow out of stress of the situation, even though for anyone, everyone, it is a completely normal situation...

So it's like... if you can picture - you're with your friends, and suddenly you gulp! :p

But this other person - their friend, who I just met... the next day, I believe it was... I was with him and... then I apologized to him... and what he said was really touching. When I tried to tell him the symptoms of what I had been doing which I thought was wrong.... well what he said was "Oh, I never picked up on that." At that moment I cried again unexpectedly and unwantingly, but only for a moment, and I felt love and gratefulness toward him...

And anyway... this general anxiety disorder that I had.. which would cause me to gulp, flinch, feel great anxiety at speaking with others, (though with those outside my family only... never within... etc...) I was always okay by myself...

And this whole thing gradually abated. Now it's not with me except as a distant experience.

It left me with a greater sensitivity toward others. Now what I consider insanity is when people treat each other like crap. That is simple insanity to me.. Although it's not really insanity... sometimes maybe.

But back to the point.. all I would say is think of what you say before you say it. Don't say things which might hurt others' feelings. Even if you suddenly feel such an impulse - what you have to do is bear that feeling without acting. Don't worry because it will subside. Everything which comes into existence also passes. You just have to be uncontrolled by those feelings.

I probably shouldn't attempt to give you any more advice though, as I don't really know you... It's just I have a great faith in people - any of them... -'s ability to heal themselves...

But I won't give you any more advice because I don't know you... but I would just say... some of the most important things in life are communication... and knowing oneself.... trusting oneself... and in communication... relationships, and then love... I think that's the goal of life...

So best of luck. Last thing I will say to you is you absolutely can find and have whatever you want in life, whatever life you want to live... Don't pay any attention to those who doubt you, those who say you can't, those who would like to keep you from doing so! Unfortunately they are there... but I've found they're few and far between...

But it does take consistency.. that is important.

Best of luck Nax.

The way I see it is all is connected yet also there's a part of us which is forever unchanged! :)

[Katy North]

Since we're sharing, when I was in college I had a strange mixture of anxiety and depression for about six months. At first it was mostly anxiety; I felt like the walls were closing in on me, and to relieve the stress I felt I pushed against them with pillows, and I had this odd feeling that I could see that everyone around me had "wings" but I was still waiting for mine to grow. It was, like Nickolai, all in my head. Life was just overwhelming me at the time and my imagination just found a way to provide an outlet.

When I started to get depressed because of everything that was going on I just kept falling asleep during times when I'd normally be focused and awake. Finally, I found a solution... I wrote and drew and was intensely creative for about 3 months and through that was able to find some sort of equalibrium.

I've found that almost everyone I've talked to has a point at some time in their life where they're fighting for their sanity... I think it's a part of the human condition.

I would also like to say that while you should always see a counselor or psychiatrist, medication isn't always necessary. A constant support system, however, is. I also wanted to say that being creative can be an outlet for a mental condition, though it shouldn't be used as an excuse not to seek treatment for said condition.

[soundofmusic]

I commend your desire to confront whatever problems you may have by visiting a healthcare professional. There are also multitudes of information and studies on the web. I would suggest, if possible, visiting a psychiatrist (rather than bothering with counselors and professionals that do not study the interworkings of thought and physiology. Write out a list of your most upseting symptoms and present those only; too much info retards the initial diagnostic process. Most of us do not fall under a compartmentalized diagnosis; and the journey of finding the right medications is arduous.
Some medications may cloud intellect; others will make you hypervigilent.

Intellectuals often hypothesize of politically incorrect things. We, as humans, have violent and inappropriate thoughts; to think these thoughts and to properly channel the thoughts is what makes us sane. If the thought begins to "take us over"; then we are beginning to struggle with mental illness.

[Gladys]

If the thought begins to "take us over"; then we are beginning to struggle with mental illness.

On radio recently, Australian author Barry Dickens spoke of his experience with depression and months of ineffective ECT in a mental hospital. In his new book 'Unparalleled Sorrow', he tells how he found his way back. In 2008 Barry was unable even to hold a pen and his spirits were very low after six months hospital, when he was handed a letter notifying the win a major literary award. He checked himself out of hospital, and has coped since.

Barry's story suggests that we have more control over our psychological state than we often think, once the thought begins to "take us over".

My own experience with insomnia has taught me that certain negative thought patterns can diminish sleeping hours and, directly and indirectly, impair well-being.

[Jozanny]

Gladys: I hate to sound like a defender of western medical practices, as disability advocates are suspicious of medical model control, but I'd say it depends. The class of mood disorders, to varying degrees, can be modified--me for instance. I am not lashing out at posters every week due to pain over loss of self-determination and economic means--partly because I inherited but also partly because I realize it doesn't help me any, though I do miss, now and again, the ability to be frank and contemptuous as I'd like, as I'd let loose on a few debates:D

But there is a difference between mood disorder, organic illness, and incurability.

My mother was functional, but sick with bipolar disorder from the age of 16. And the schizophrenias are a really tough class, as is unipolar depression, and certain personality disorder pathologies. I am cynical about my future well being because my options are limited (unless I become the new Rowling soon, eh) and I will not bore you with disability and the cruelty of the American safety net. It is horrible, and our Allies like you have every right to thumb your noses at us.:smilielol5:

[virginiawang]

On monday I will be going to a clinic, and the following week the GP. Time to put a name to these demons.

I do not know what advice I can offer here, but I want to prevent you from
heading towards a garbage mountain. Don't. You'll regret if you do. Don't ruin yourself. Psychiatry has no scientific back up. Think again.

[OrphanPip]

I do not know what advice I can offer here, but I want to prevent you from
heading towards a garbage mountain. Don't. You'll regret if you do. Don't ruin yourself. Psychiatry has no scientific back up. Think again.

Psychiatry has a significant amount of scientific support, and has made huge advancements since the 60s. Paranoid schizophrenics and individuals with severe bipolar disorder are able to live semi-normal lives because of the advances in psychiatric pharmaceuticals.

[Jozanny]

Psychiatry has a significant amount of scientific support, and has made huge advancements since the 60s. Paranoid schizophrenics and individuals with severe bipolar disorder are able to live semi-normal lives because of the advances in psychiatric pharmaceuticals.

Yes, but only up to a point. It is not like A Beautiful Mind saga for those with a really serious diagnosis, and those of us with experience know there is usually no happy ending, just a plateau of stability if one is lucky.

Sometimes the medical cocktail does not work, sometimes it takes years to get adjusted properly, and good support services cost money. My mother was never not sick. She was not insane, but she was never well either, and the last pyschotropic drug she was on contributed to her fatal heart attack. None of her children have bipolar disorder, but we have all needed help with anxiety, and my adjustment disorder is a remarkably mild condition to have sustained, under the circumstances.

But I know from case managing my clients, as well, that success has to be taken in small increments.

Even with depression, traditional SRI's and counseling fail 1/3 of the time, depending on the severity and how disabling the depression is; this particular disease does not always interfere with daily living activity, but I have also had clients who could not put their laundry away.

[Gladys]

Psychiatry ... has made huge advancements since the 60s.

Considering that mainstays of psychiatry in earlier decades included lobotomy, organ removal and ECT, the scope for advancement has been boundless. :)

My reading of the research suggests that - for most of the mentally ill - pharmaceuticals and talk therapy are equally effective but somewhat inferior to Behaviour Modification, yet none of these works well. While they may work for community peace of mind, the benefit for many sufferers is small or negative. The rate of increase in mental illness last century suggests that societal change is a significant factor.


But there is a difference between mood disorder, organic illness, and incurability.

I wonder whether overtly neurological disorders are sometimes moderated by amicable society and environment.

[Nax]

All interesting posts. Its continuingly befuddlying for me. To outside lookers, I am very functional. I have a job, I am studying at uni, I have friends (though I struggle to make new ones) I have some semblance of direction as much as anyone. And yet on the inside I am anything but ok.

I will not put any names to what I think I have, but I will go so far as to describe some of the issues I face day to day, as a starting point for what I am going to have to tell the people at the clinic it might be good to get some things more clearly explained and it might be fun to see what diagnosis you couch psychs come up with anyways :D

The biggest is depression. Severe depression, sometimes in waves throughout the day, sometimes for a sustained length of time ranging from a few days to a few weeks. Generally this results in very antisocial behaviour. I will sit inside, on the couch or in bed, reading, or just feeling miserable. Ive tried writing a journal, taking my mind off it, but its impossible. It saturates every level of my conciousness to the point even my dreams are depressing. It makes me have incredibly low self esteem aswell. Suicide is always on my mind, even when im not depressed it generally is, but when im depressed it becomes an active thought rather then just a day to day consideration. When I am not depressed it is always there in the back of my head saying "hey, u know u could just run infront of that car, or drive your car into a tree like your mother did, or ride ur motorcycle under a truck, etc etc" As of about 3 months ago I started smoking for this very reason. It helps the suicidal thoughts because I know I am doing it little bit at a time rather then all at once which seems to help.

Besides the depression and the suicide I feel generally fine day to day and I am quite jolly and chipper which is how most people know me.

In outside the house situations I am extremely paranoid of what people think and see of me. I am always adjusting my clothes, attempting to stand in a way that I think wont single me out, holding a bag a certain way, pointing my feet in a certain direction. Even with all this careful consideration I still believe that everyone around me, from pedestrians to passing cars to people in the office buildlings around me are looking at me, and judging me, and laughing at me and talking down of me. I know they arent deep down, but I feel compelled.

Its hard to explain, but its sorta like have you ever had that feeling like someones watching you, imagine that, but times 1000, and all the eyes are antagonistic. For the most part I just try to ignore it (as most of my symptoms I just push through them as I know they are manufactured of my brain and not real) but it is incredibly difficult and makes things like going shopping, or going to concerts or events very uncomfortable. I will go generally for the enjoyment of other people and because I dont desire to be a hermit, but I can never fully enjoy myself.

I also have a compelling to do incredibly random things. Sometimes this means I get a tattoo I didnt quite want. Sometimes it results in an unexpected holiday. Sometimes it makes me face up to the unseen eyes that torment me and strike up conversations with random people, at bus stops, at parties, etc. which helps me feel less watched. These things can all be construed as positive results to a symptom, but there are many that are negative as sometimes the random act isnt something you would normally do at all and would quite rather not do either way. The result is me having zero money, as I constantly buy things which I dont need, but am unable to logically talk myself away from them. It also means I end up in Adelaide instead of back in Canada (which was my original plan, but I was derailed). It also means I tend to drop friends and lovers with no warning at all. I go from 100 to 0 in a day with them, and many dont understand why I woke up one morning like any other and simply cut them adrift. But I just feel compelled to leave them behind and start something new and no amount of logic can stop me. This is also the root of my infedelity in relationships. Previously I was incredibly loyal, despised those who were unfaithful and swore I would never do it. The same compelling feeling comes over me from time to time and I find myself doing just that.


I despise myself for it, but I cannot stop it, its almost as if I am watching myself do these random things from a distance, but cant make contact with my body or the part of my mind doing it. Its very frustrating, and incredibly demoralizing and generally results in a sever bout of depression. Its not very nice being forced to do horrible things that make u hate yourself.

Some more recent symptoms (as of about 3 months ago) are constantly talking and singing to myself when no one is talking to me or Im alone. Also from time to time the floor or walls will appear slightly ripply, as if someone has thrown a rock into a pond, but the pond being a floor or a wall or a fridge. I also hear my name being called, and when I go to find who is calling me, no one is.

I try to not drink too much these days as it makes almost every symptom substancially worse, or because my mind is inhibited it seems so much worse as my condition seems to run rampent with my gaurd being down.

There is a bit more to some of the last symptoms, but if i explained that it would take some of the fun out of it as it would be plain as day to you as it is to me.

[Gladys]

it might be fun to see what diagnosis you couch psychs come up with anyways

Speaking as a keen couch psych, have you implemented recent, research-based, practical advice for dealing with depression. On a daily basis:


Expose bare skin to ultra-violet rays from the sun - much more so in winter.


Do thirty minutes of heart-thumping exercise.


Have a large meal of oily fish.


Get at least eight hours sleep (if possible).


On the psychological front, have you considered that almost everyone has experienced all of your symptoms at one time or other. But the sane seek ways of forcefully channelling their errant thoughts and perceptions in different, more useful directions.

[Nax]

besides the fish, for fund reasons, and the exercise yes.

This isnt really a "one time or another" thing, its a constant for the last seven years. And as I said, sometimes the "errant thoughts" are used for good, sometimes no good can come of them.

[Jozanny]

Nax, try treatment. With everything I feel about medical model systems, this does not mean it doesn't work at all, and if you are male, between 19 and 30ish, medications may help. The right working relationship with the right medical professional can lead to better emotional health--give it a shot, as we say in the American idiom. I am sure Australian policies are similar enough to our own that you will do just fine.

[Gladys]

besides the fish, for fund reasons, and the exercise yes.

Tinned sardines and salmon are excellent and fairly cheap here. Research link: Fish Oils May Beat Mental Illness (foxnews.mobi/quickPage.html?page=22995&content=32547954&pageNum=-1)


...sometimes the "errant thoughts" are used for good...

Certainly - for inspiration, invention, lateral thinking - but a constant stream of errant thoughts are not good and must be a hard burden to bear.

Incidentally, research broadcast here yesterday indicates that psychotropic drugs typically decrease life expectancy as much as smoking.

[soundofmusic]

I commend you for noticing and admitting these symptoms; most of us suffer with them for years and make excuses. There are many reasons why a person might suffer from depression, many times it is a chemical imbalance that can be easily treated with some of the lighter antidepressants. With an intellegent person like yourself, who is self aware, it will be easy to establish a rapport with a psychiatrist and get on the proper medication regimen. If the medication increases suicidal thoughts, report immediately to your doctor.
You may also request something to decrease anxiety with your depression medication. At first, the medication may make you tired; you may want to take it at night and advise the doctor if you would like to decrease the dosage. You will probably benefit from a mixture of talk therapy and medications. Psychiatric medications are not always permanent, sometimes your body begins to increase serotonin and dopamine and you begin to feel better, have more self esteem. The slight effects of these medications on your liver are not nearly as harmful as your current condition.

Pharmaceutical studies are based on a small number of individuals in limited cross sections and all variables are not considered.

[Katy North]

Talk therapy is always important... When I feel especially overwhelmed or start to feel depressed, just getting it off my chest to a counselor for a session or two is a great relief, even if they don't actively help.

[OrphanPip]

Pharmaceutical studies are based on a small number of individuals in limited cross sections and all variables are not considered.

It's unfortunate that medical studies can't be perfect, but nothing really is in this world. If we are to get anywhere in life, whether it be in medical treatment or any other aspect, we have to take risk sometimes.

The standard size of a phase III clinical trial is around 2000 individuals, this is more than enough to have statistically significant results. Occasionally you'll miss out on the 1/1,000,000 complication, like with the Vioxx debacle, but for the most part clinical trials are more than enough to determine safety and efficacy. We can't forget about the large number of animal trials that are performed prior to it getting anywhere near a human being. Most medications will have unfortunate side effects, but it is up to the patient and their physician/psychiatrist to discuss and decide whether the risk is worthwhile to them.

As to all variables not being considered, they consider as many variables as is reasonably possible. Eventually, you have to stop wondering if the humidity levels in the air have an effect on a condition, it's unreasonable to consider "all variables". The system isn't perfect, but it is damn near as good as we'll ever get.

[soundofmusic]

It's unfortunate that medical studies can't be perfect, but nothing really is in this world. If we are to get anywhere in life, whether it be in medical treatment or any other aspect, we have to take risk sometimes.

The standard size of a phase III clinical trial is around 2000 individuals, this is more than enough to have statistically significant results. Occasionally you'll miss out on the 1/1,000,000 complication, like with the Vioxx debacle, but for the most part clinical trials are more than enough to determine safety and efficacy. We can't forget about the large number of animal trials that are performed prior to it getting anywhere near a human being. Most medications will have unfortunate side effects, but it is up to the patient and their physician/psychiatrist to discuss and decide whether the risk is worthwhile to them.

As to all variables not being considered, they consider as many variables as is reasonably possible. Eventually, you have to stop wondering if the humidity levels in the air have an effect on a condition, it's unreasonable to consider "all variables". The system isn't perfect, but it is damn near as good as we'll ever get.

You're brilliant, as well:) My understanding of phase 3 testing is that the numbers in the study depend on financing and clinic size. What I have found in my personal and professional life, is that the studies are conducted on a person who has the target illness, and eliminates persons with complications.
In Veterans hospitals and state assisted institutions, it is rare to find a patient who has the target illness alone. In addition to this, the drugs are often not used for their prescribed use; but used for the side effects of the drugs.

Talk therapy is always important... When I feel especially overwhelmed or start to feel depressed, just getting it off my chest to a counselor for a session or two is a great relief, even if they don't actively help.

Yes, I had forgot to mention that there are a number of online networks, such as about.com, for people suffering from depression, suicidal thoughts, etc. It often helps to talk with others and share feelings and information.

[OrphanPip]

You're brilliant, as well:) My understanding of phase 3 testing is that the numbers in the study depend on financing and clinic size. What I have found in my personal and professional life, is that the studies are conducted on a person who has the target illness, and eliminates persons with complications.
In Veterans hospitals and state assisted institutions, it is rare to find a patient who has the target illness alone. In addition to this, the drugs are often not used for their prescribed use; but used for the side effects of the drugs.


Well you know what they say about all the good ones ;).

The issue of excluding people with other conditions from trials is definitely there, but without doing that it would be near impossible to get definitive answers about the efficacy of the drug. It is also arguably unethical to include individuals with other illnesses, because they may be at higher risk of complication than is necessary to test the efficacy of the drug.

As to clinical practice with prescription, that's a whole different issue. At least with the major drug companies they do extensive Phase 4 research as well.

[Nax]

In my mind this has been an extremely successful thread so far. Not just for me but for anyone who may be trolling the forums and experiencing other issues.

We have had personal experiences, we have had informative debates and statistics, and even some info on the medications. I am very happy indeed I started this thread.

I am however incredibly unhappy with the clinic I made an appointment with (danger rant imminant) I booked in for an initial consult, which then leads to a GP to get a psych plan slip which entitles me to 6 free consults with a psych as well as getting me a contact with a GP. The contact they assigned me (Steve) was relatively helpful and booked me in right away. However he did this with no consulting of my schedule and when I was informed that both my initial consult and gp appoingments were on days I have uni and were impossible for me to attend. No sweat he says, he gets the scheduler on the phone and we redo them fro suitable times.

Today I get a reminder text, the apts. were not changed at all, so I had to deal with someone else and they have now been rescheduled at a later time (they are sending me out a letter with the details) This is incredibly frustrating to me as its taken me 7 years to finally get the courage and determination (as well as be stable enough to talk and follow thro) and the last week has been torture. Waiting for the apt. not sure what will happen next, terrified its worse then I thought or something and now I have to wait at least another week. BLAH!

Anyways. Rant over, just very frustrating.

On a side note, I would just like to extend a special thanks to JuniperWoolf. You all have been very helpful and understanding with all this, but she has really gone above and beyond. We do know each other personally but are on literally the other side of the world from each other, and she has spent alot of time talking with me and helping me through some myths and thoughts and things. So *cyberapplause* for her.

HOPEFULLY this time next week Ill have a bit more to share with u guys on the process over here, we can go on the journey together, should be fun :D

[Gladys]

Since these drugs - with serious side effects - have efficacy similar to talk therapies and are little better than placebo, why not collar a good friend or pastor for a weekly chat? Shouldn't most drugs be seen as a short term or last ditch solution?

Isn't there evidence that vested interests in psychiatry and big pharma are pushing drugs of questionable value? While drug trials may prove significant (once any negative trial is quietly buried), the effectiveness of most of these drugs seems marginal. For instance: Studies suggest that the popular drugs are no more effective than a placebo. In fact, they may be worse. (www.newsweek.com/id/232781)

[OrphanPip]

I'm always wary of editorials in newspapers from journalist who's only source of knowledge on the subject they are writing about is the opinion of the person whose book they then plug at the end of the article.

I looked up Kirsch paper. Apart from being published in PLoS, an open source journal with minimal peer review, the journalist conveniently ignores some elements of his findings. For example, that paper reports that in cases of severe depression the efficacy of the drugs remains the same, but the placebo effect is decreased the more serious the depression is. So, drugs seem to be effective for people with severe depression, and the efficacy seems to derive from something other than the placebo effect.

I'm also skeptical of meta-analysis as a means of assessing efficacy in general. As someone without an advanced degree in mathematics, I have a hard time wrapping my head around the statistics, and it would take me hours of research to look at all the papers they used in their analysis to determine if their conclusions are accurate.

Anyway, I do think that drugs should be used only in severe cases of depression.

My education is in microbiology and immunology, so my knowledge of psychiatric drugs is relatively limited.

Edit: I'm also concerned with the fact that they only looked at short term studies, covering only a few weeks of treatment. I can imagine reporter bias and the placebo effect over a much longer period being greatly diminished.

[Nax]

I am of the belief you both may be right. I believe that drugs are helpful to a majority of people and a variety of illnesses. However I also believe that in many cases there is alot of pressure (and financial gain) for Physicians to overperscribe things and to perscribe things which may not be neccisary with other treatments.

However there is also alot of pressure from the client to be medicated, not just in psychiatric terms but also for alot of medical conditions. People want quick fixes and are of the belief that drugs can solve everything (or get them really high).

Different things work for different people, in my case they may determine I am functional enough not to need them, or they may believe that preventative measures are best to stop further progression of the psychosis and depressive aspects. Just have to wait and see.

[virginiawang]

Psychiatry has a significant amount of scientific support, and has made huge advancements since the 60s. Paranoid schizophrenics and individuals with severe bipolar disorder are able to live semi-normal lives because of the advances in psychiatric pharmaceuticals.

Psychiatry is psedoscience. A chemical imbalance in a brain is not backed up by any medical evidence. If you have such a high opinion about psychiatry, why not try it yourself. It is impossible nowadays for anyone to visit a psychiatrist and not get a diagnosis and a prescription. Go and get one. Learn and feel psychiatry yourself before you suggest it to somebody else.

[OrphanPip]

Psychiatry is psedoscience. A chemical inbalance in a brain is not backed up by any medical evidence. If you have such a high opinion about psychiatry, why not try it yourself. It is impossible nowadays for anyone to visit a psychiatrist and not get a diagnosis and a prescription. Go and get one. Learn and feel psychiatry yourself before you suggest it to somebody else.

As someone who has survived a suicide attempt and been through extensive therapy, I have experience with psychiatry and I didn't get a prescription for an antidepressant.

Whether the chemical imbalance hypothesis of depression is right or not has nothing to do with the legitimacy of psychiatry. You're creating a strawman and ignoring the fact that my post was about the huge advances in the treatment of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. Not to mention that even Kirsch from the previous post admits that talk therapy works for the treatment of depression.

[soundofmusic]

Hi Nax: if the stress gets too high; you can go for an emergency room visit. Is it possible to call the clinic scheduling and find out when the appt. is instead of waiting for the paper? Meanwhile, I find the about.com and other depression chat lines are very helpful. Good Luck...

Orphan Pip, It is the story of my life that all the good ones with great looks and hygiene are..:) You are very bright and you are quite right about all of your information; I hope you are going into the medical field:)

Hi Gladys, I liked your thoughts on the fish, sunlight and exercise. I can only speak for my own experience regarding medications and have noticed profound effects regarding the use of antidepressants for neuropathic pain in hospice patients. It often reduces the need for narcotics. In addition, medications such as Wellbutrin; have several positive and a few negative side effects that our patients would not be aware of because they are only on very obscure studies; they, never the less, turn up.

[DanielBenoit]

Hey Nax, I really feel for you dude, because I suffer from the same bouts of low self-esteem, social anxiety and subtle mania. I've been seeing a psychiatrist for about a year and a half now and it really helps, even if it doesn't solve everything every week, things gradually get better. For example, I could hardly go outside for a walk in the city last year without having a panic attack because I would start to get those symptoms you described and then my mind would start going in one hundred different directions.

Now going out into the city is nothing and I can do everyday things in public with no problem at all (though there are still times in which I begin to slightly panic, but those are rare).

Meds help, but therapy is the main cause of my healing. Meds set you up for the therapy, but they're no ends-in-themselves and should be taken with a low dosage because they can easily turn you into a robot, and that to be is worse than anything.

[NikolaiI]

In my mind this has been an extremely successful thread so far. Not just for me but for anyone who may be trolling the forums and experiencing other issues.

We have had personal experiences, we have had informative debates and statistics, and even some info on the medications. I am very happy indeed I started this thread.

I am however incredibly unhappy with the clinic I made an appointment with (danger rant imminant) I booked in for an initial consult, which then leads to a GP to get a psych plan slip which entitles me to 6 free consults with a psych as well as getting me a contact with a GP. The contact they assigned me (Steve) was relatively helpful and booked me in right away. However he did this with no consulting of my schedule and when I was informed that both my initial consult and gp appoingments were on days I have uni and were impossible for me to attend. No sweat he says, he gets the scheduler on the phone and we redo them fro suitable times.

Today I get a reminder text, the apts. were not changed at all, so I had to deal with someone else and they have now been rescheduled at a later time (they are sending me out a letter with the details) This is incredibly frustrating to me as its taken me 7 years to finally get the courage and determination (as well as be stable enough to talk and follow thro) and the last week has been torture. Waiting for the apt. not sure what will happen next, terrified its worse then I thought or something and now I have to wait at least another week. BLAH!



This is interesting and to me it indicates that you should try to detach yourself any intense feeling in relation to the clinc or with physchiatry in general. When I think about your problem, of course I don't to give advice carelessly, without knowledge, etc... but I am pretty sure about this, you don't need that stress in dealing with the clinic.

So two things, one is try - and this is something you should always do, as practice - to view anything which might be disturbing, view with calmness, and then do not react without thoughtful decision. You should practice to do this until you gain much more control over your impulses.

Also don't think that psychiatry or any other system or group has a monopoly on their "field." Psychiatrists are just a group like any other, and they are a vast group, that they surely include a bit of all humanity, like all other groups do. But what makes a true healer is quality which includes all good qualities, and a true healer is rare, one in a billion, and they are not necessarily found in clinics or hospitals, or any other place for that matter.

You can find healing for yourself and by yourself. Unfortunately there are no absolutes. You can study all that humanity has written, and you can try their remedies (living in nature, living in a church, living in a city, living in the country, etc...)

But you have to make your own path and follow your own guidance. And for you to have peace you will have to work at it. But if you attain that peace, there won't be anything left for you to know. The path to peace unlocks unlimited worlds.

I hope any of this made sense.. :)

[Gladys]

Psychiatrists are just a group like any other...

A medical student at Adelaide University once told me that most would-be doctors choose psychiatry to shed light on their own mental illness. Be that as it may, the chronically ill people I've encountered, revere and venerate their psychiatrists beyond all reason. To that extent NikolaiI is right in saying, "You can find healing for yourself and by yourself".

Confidant in your personal quest, avail yourself of what psychiatrists or anyone else can offer. Ultimately, if nothing else works, there are always drugs and ETC, for what they're worth.


I...have noticed profound effects regarding the use of antidepressants for neuropathic pain in hospice patients.

For a dying patient, any treatment that gives relief is laudable if the side effects are bearable, but the mentally ill wish to survive in the long run. A 60-year-old friend died last year after four decades of psychotropic cocktails. His faith in his doctors was absolute, in himself non-existent. His physical state in latter years was appalling: an ailing, crippled and incoherent Hunchback from Notre Dame.

[Katy North]

Don't be afraid to dump a clinic, or psychiatrist, or Counselor, if they seem ineffective.

When I was a young teenager, I had trouble making friends, and my parents took me to a psychiatrist who taught me how to "breathe". I assume they felt I had social anxiety. I really didn't, I just didn't understand how my peers operated. It was fairly pointless and a waste of time.

Later in my life I went to a couple counselors who actually gave me advice or just let me vent my frustration. That helped a lot more than a million "blow the candles out" exercises.

[soundofmusic]

Hi Virginia, I think most of us on the forum do have personal experience with psychiatrists. I am a nurse, so I have friends who are psychiatrists, patients who are cared for by psychiatrists and when my husband passed away; I went to a psychiatrist for depression. It's true, there are alot of incompetent medical professionals and it is more difficult to hold psychiatrist to a standard than an internist. I began with light antidepressants and antianxieties and talk therapy. I kept a low dosage so that I could continue to block repressed memories that were disturbing and I could return to work. I continued talk therapy and antidepressants until I felt, 1 year later, that they were no longer necessary. They were of great help at a time I needed them.

Orphan Pip, Daniel and Katy: my hat is off to all of you and I am so glad for your health

Gladys: I am so sorry for your friend and your grief. These medications do have there side effects; that is why it is so important to monitor yourself and keep in close contact with your primary doctor for liver testing and your psychiatrists for any adverse reactions. I have acquaintances who have had lifelong mental illness; while they are not on medication, their bodies have still deteriorated faster than others without mental illness do...I wonder if such studies exist.

[virginiawang]

As someone who has survived a suicide attempt and been through extensive therapy, I have experience with psychiatry and I didn't get a prescription for an antidepressant.

Whether the chemical imbalance hypothesis of depression is right or not has nothing to do with the legitimacy of psychiatry. You're creating a strawman and ignoring the fact that my post was about the huge advances in the treatment of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. Not to mention that even Kirsch from the previous post admits that talk therapy works for the treatment of depression.
I don't know whether you were medicated or not in the intensive therapy. If that process only involved talk, it would not harm you in any way. However if you like to be medicated, it's your own choice.
However a chemical imbalance in a brain does invalidate psychiatry once and for all, and your use of the word, hypothesis, explained everything. Psychiatry did advance a great deal in its scale to make their victims more manageable, but it has never cured a single patient from long time ago since now. A word you used in your last post," semi-?" is ludicrous. One can never be changed into another. Why did psychiatrists try to make their victims something like vegetables, which can also nod to you when a puff of wind comes? I do not think they have the right to change any human beings out of their original form, which is the most precious type.

Hi DanielBenoit,
I respect your choice and opinion here, but I cannot help wanting to vent my opinions about this issue.
To have my mind working in a hundred different paths when I am walking around sounds exciting. It gives me the image of a network of wires which do not work as they were expected. They give off sparks when the currents meet. I am sure this muddled state of mind will give me the most strange ideas which I can never imagine with a prosaic mind. If I had such experince, I would cherish it for anything in the world. Even if it hurts, I won't try to get rid of it. It will pass when the right time comes. No matter what happens, I won't change the way my brain was wired.
Don't care about what I wrote here.

Before I close, I really want to tell you that a slight dosage will also hurt. It will not make one a complete robot, but it will make one something like a robot. It will dull the senses. One cannot feel as keely as he used to do after being medicated.


For a dying patient, any treatment that gives relief is laudable if the side effects are bearable, but the mentally ill wish to survive in the long run. A 60-year-old friend died last year after four decades of psychotropic cocktails. His faith in his doctors was absolute, in himself non-existent. His physical state in latter years was appalling: an ailing, crippled and incoherent Hunchback from Notre Dame.

Hi, Gladys, I agree with you completely, 100% completely. When one wishes to die and loses all hopes in the world, he can choose psychiatry, which will not kill him in a moment but will torture him on a long term basis. It is a even more severe torture than death.
It will perhaps lengthen a life, but it degrages the quality of it, kills off the dignity, the nobility, and the freshness of it at the moment one swallows the pills.
I agree with you, Gladys.

[Jozanny]

To take a break from trying to be busy, although I am actually busy, I am rather on the median between virginia's understandable mistrust, a mistrust I share to a great extent, and Orphan's advocacy of the medical model, especially since I have been in the trenches with significantly disturbed and sometimes violent people--but I think much of what makes human beings sick is low class status tied to poverty and economic stress, with the usual bogeymen of racism and other discriminating factors. We are, after all, members of the great ape family, cognitively ahead of other apes by a few leaps, perhaps, thanks to a wrist bone or toe bone and a bipedal advance in locomotion, but we are still just large primates unwilling to accept that we behave a lot like baboons, only that we've been too successful, are too numerous, and increasingly have too much faith in the process, or cannot always resolve procedure from personal autonomy.

I paid apt attention to _Suicide Tourist_, the other night, a recycled Frontline piece, and thought, "Ah, I still have enough money to fly to Switzerland so I can legally die without guilt!" (I am not sick enough, however.)

What struck me in viewing the death porn documentary, tasteful done as it was, is how much control we still cede to methodology, whether we are a right to die advocate, or an angry exiled disability activist, or a mental health patient, who, after their downfall and climb back from the dung heap, approaching the nearest publisher with our junkie paranoid loaded memoir, will then appear on Charlie Rose and say, "Hey I'm great!"

I do not know that as a species, we're truly cut out for our own increasingly complex paradigms.

Just a thought.

[virginiawang]

When I was a young teenager, I had trouble making friends, and my parents took me to a psychiatrist who taught me how to "breathe". I assume they felt I had social anxiety. I really didn't, I just didn't understand how my peers operated. It was fairly pointless and a waste of time.


I've always had trouble making friends or getting along with people. When I was in my early teens, my classmates called me by the nickname, " idiot." When I grew older and entered a senior high school, I learned to be proud, and to look at everyone from above. I had no friends at all, but that suited me better. I accept myself till now. I do not want to change myself by the hands of psychiatrists. I want to be the way I am, though I wish I could become an ordinary woman.

[soundofmusic]

Hi Virginia, I wanted to bring up a point: No one who feels totally well, mentally and physically (except for those who are trying to fake disability for cash assets) goes to psychiatrist. Psychiatrist only treat people who not only have mental issues; but are disturbed enough by them to seek help.

When on the proper medications and dosage, a person can focus better, it is wonderful for anxiety disorders; the more complex the disorder, the harder it is to treat with medications. Sometimes, bipolar people change so rapidly that it is difficult to medicate them. Of course, violent people are put on high doses of medication to prevent them from hurting themselves and others.

I am a hospice nurse. I assure you, in most cases, death is not dignified even without medication. Yet, most people prefer any form of life to death.
Now, if you think being too weak to bath or go to the bathroom, soiling yourself and having to have a son or a loved one change your diaper, losing all taste for food or the ability to eat your favorite foods...spending your last days eating pudding, ensure and jello; Spending 24 hours a day in bed because no one can lift you and lifting equipment cannot be brought into your room, losing all of your friends who just think it is too sad to come see you, having your skin breakdown from extensive weight loss and pressure.
If you find this dignified, I encourage you to try it in your 80th year; me, when I'm on the way to that place, I'm swallowing a big bottle of narcotics.

[Katy North]

:nod:

That reminds me sort of what happened when I gave birth to my son. While I was pregnant, I swore to myself that I would not have an epidural. I wanted the experience to be "real" and "natural". When I actually went into labor and I was screaming because it felt like I was dying, I realized all bets were off, and got me one of those things right away.

If you are truly in need of medication, it is probably obvious the moment you start taking it and your thoughts start evening out. I consider myself lucky because I am able to pull myself out of depression a couple times without drugs, but I am sure that if I was constantly plagued by suicidal thoughts and a psychiatrist recommended it I would rather take a couple pills than be constantly extremely depressed.

[soundofmusic]

:thumbsup: My point exactly, Katy. Those who need it, take it; those who don't philosophize:)

[Jozanny]

music: One of our Disabled In Action activists just passed, thankfully, in much the way you describe; he was 79 and it was a terrible ordeal, which is one of my criticisms of the independent living movement. I do not believe in hanging on at all costs, and losing all my old friends like this has been taking its toll on me.

I have been trying to tell my family in no uncertain terms that I am not going to die like Terri Schiavo and my friend. I will not. The activists fought to keep him going on the respirator with a feeding tube, and I am writing an angry essay, as there is no dignity in what he went through; his aide is my housekeeper, and we were all stretched to the breaking point.

[virginiawang]

Hi Soundofmusic, I want to let you know some of the events that happened around the world day after day, which you can never imagine I think. Many people were involuntarily commited or medicated because they were considered undesirable in the eyes of their family members. They lost the right to their own sanity. It is a real tragedy in our civilized world.
As to the point you brought forth, of being able to focus better after being medicated, I believe you were lying. Have you once in your life entered a real paychiatric ward or an asylum for a few minutes and looked around? If so, you would never have held such an opinion. Those being medicated lost the aim of their life. Their eyes look straight with no expressions at all. They are not living beings with a heart, I believe. They cannot do anything at all, let alone focus their minds. Of course, they can be trained to do some simple works like baking bread and selling it with a monotonous voice. I am sure you will feel sad when you really take a look at those unfortunate people. Is it better to have violent bouts of emotions than to exist in a death-like coma?
The conditions you mentioned are truly terrible, but when they are compared with a deathlike existence, they are just OK.
To die with dignity is what I wish if somebody wants to interfere with my life by way of psychiatry.
Those being medicated and involuntarily commited do not have dignity. You cannot deny it.
By the way, I do not think narcotics are real psychiatric drugs. I cannot live without sleeping pills, which are also narcotics, I guess. They are not psychiatric drugs, I am sure.

[Jozanny]

Virginia: Here I think you are straying some. That psychiatry can be abused does not mean that psychiatry cannot help patients function better, and yes, medications can and do work, and posters who understand this aren't lying.

Mental health is a complicated issue, and though I side with the thinker Foucault for the most part in terms of an intellectual critique of madness and its treatment, this does not mean that modalities should simply be damned, in the sense that we do need systems in order for society to function.

Essentially, there is no *right* answer here about emotion health and mental well being. As Freud was the first modern doctor to recognize, it is a matter of scale. If you are addicted to sleeping pills, btw, you should discuss this with your physician.

PS: I apologize to everyone for being a bit dour in a few posts here or there. I am going through *the change*, as my grandmother's generation called it, and my fake cigarettes cannot quite handle my stress as tobacco used to.

[virginiawang]

Hi Jozanny, You quite misunderstood me. I did not critisize psychiatry because it can be abused. I did it because it hurts human beings. Over the past years psychiatrists made their best attempts to calm their victims by damaging their brain and nerve system. Their only purpose is to make people more manageable.
By the way, I do not think it is fair and right to deprive all people who feel more than others of their sanity, even if it is beneficial to society as a whole. Of course it is easier to control a group of robots than some real men with unexpected impulses gushing out each moment. You can not get rid of all the people you deem undesirable even if you were the king.

I do not understand what you meant by " btw". Sleeping pills are good for me. They are given by my Hematology doctor each month.

As I read your post again, I could not check my impulse to scream out loud. My anger almost smothered me. To function better? It is a tricky phrase. Do you think those on medication in a ward or an asylum, baking bread or watering flowers all day long, function better than real lunatic people with bouts of emotions gushing forth unexpectedly? Many people have been labeled by psychiatrists and restricted all their lives, by both medication and the fact that they are not protected by law. Their minds have been crippled and they cannot do, think, or feel anything. Yes, they are calm and stable. They can work mechanically without a heart that feels. Is that the sort of function you laud?

[Jozanny]

It isn't just used to contain negative behavior, but to help people heal, and ease pain. Few people are involuntarily institutionalized these days, not in the US anyway, and in most cases, if person X doesn't want a medication, they can refuse it.

I do understand your protest, as I have experienced able-bodied hatred against me recently that was blatant, and it is best I do not get into detail, but in cases where self-harm may occur, or harm to others, treatment is the only option, especially when illness doesn't enable a person to perform daily living activities. And when we deal with the dementias, there is little choice. Alzheimer's patients need to be cared for when they lose themselves--and even in my case, I am a realist. My limbs do not work, and it is only within certain parameters that I can just manage. When I am in my 60's I will undoubtedly have to accept more constraints. Those with serious mental disease have the same problem.

[virginiawang]

US is a safe place, but not all countries are as safe. I am living in a dangerous place, where all kinds of jokes can occur.
I think even in the US people on medication tend to be restricted by both their family members who take care of them and their psychiatrists. They are labeled forever.
I do not understand what is able-bodied hatred. I do not think treatment will prevent harm at all. Do you really think medication can cure dementia and make people who suffer from it think better? I do not think any medication can lead to a better brain function. I am sorry If I've offended you in any way. I really do not understand.

[soundofmusic]

music: One of our Disabled In Action activists just passed, thankfully, in much the way you describe; he was 79 and it was a terrible ordeal, which is one of my criticisms of the independent living movement. I do not believe in hanging on at all costs, and losing all my old friends like this has been taking its toll on me.

I have been trying to tell my family in no uncertain terms that I am not going to die like Terri Schiavo and my friend. I will not. The activists fought to keep him going on the respirator with a feeding tube, and I am writing an angry essay, as there is no dignity in what he went through; his aide is my housekeeper, and we were all stretched to the breaking point.

It must be very difficult for you to watch your friends going through this long wasting away. When I first started this work, our patients seemed to drift away in a sort of suspended animation. Of late, they seem to go through an extended wasting, more pain, too strong to die; too weak to live.


Hi Soundofmusic, I want to let you know some of the events that happened around the world day after day, which you can never imagine I think. Many people were involuntarily commited or medicated because they were considered undesirable in the eyes of their family members. They lost the right to their own sanity. It is a real tragedy in our civilized world.
As to the point you brought forth, of being able to focus better after being medicated, I believe you were lying. Have you once in your life entered a real paychiatric ward or an asylum for a few minutes and looked around? If so, you would never have held such an opinion. Those being medicated lost the aim of their life. They eyes look straight with no expressions at all. They are not living beings with a heart, I believe. Not to say to focus, they cannot do anything at all. Of course, they can be trained to do some simple works like baking bread and selling it with a monotonous voice. I am sure you will feel sad when you really take a look at those unfortunate people. Is it better to have violent bouts of emotions than to exist in a death-like coma?
The conditions you mentioned are truly terrible, but when they are compared with a deathlike existence, they are just OK.
To die with dignity is what I wish if somebody wants to interfere with my life by way of psychiatry.
Those being medicated and involuntarily commited do not have dignity. You cannot deny it.
By the way, I do not think narcotics are real psychiatric drugs. I cannot live without sleeping pills, which are also narcotics, I guess. They are not psychiatric drugs, I am sure.

I know what you mean, Virginia. Actually, I visited a family member in such a place when I was a child; I still have nightmares about it...Places where they keep adults with downs syndrome and such. Cold places with cots and no sheets, filth on the floors, men and women together and all sorts of terrible things going on. I agree, these people are medicated like zombies. I hope that such places are being "cleaned up" by advocacy. Psychiatric medication is not for non violent people who are simply retarded.
The lady I visited, was actually a schizophrenic who was mildly retarded and very sweet; except when she was smothering her children...Yes, she did need medication.
I have taken antidepressants, and I was able to focus better. (It's better to say you are mistaken instead of you are lying...lying implies purposeful dishonesty) Antipsychotics are another category, and are for more extreme conditions. The difficulty with these medications is that a person needs to be able to accurately represent their symptoms to a good psychiatrist.
Some perscription sleeping aides are more dangerous in side effects than antidepressants; I assume you are talking of an over the counter sleeping aide.

[Nax]

Virginia, I think everyone understand where you are coming from, however you are being what I would consider a radical. You are taking the most extreme cases and labeling them as the everyday. Yes people can be overmedicated, incorrectly medicated, or medicated when they dont need to be, but to take these as the majority is completely obserd.

To say that all of it is for naught and that everyone shouldnt have to surrender their "sanity" is also completely rediculous, if members of your family had been murdered by a schizo having a physchotic episode, or if you were crippled by a driver who blacked out from a seizure, or lived yourself in ways that were completely unsanitary and dangerous to you and others....

Also it is well and good to say that everyone can just "get over" stuff that is getting them down or anxious, but maybe you havent lived the last seven years of your life fighting the urge every day to off yourself, even when you feel good. When your not feeling good you are so depressed that you stop eating, and taking care of yourself, and sit in the dark being told how completely worthless you are and how no one could ever love a piece of **** like you. Maybe you havent spent the greater part of the decade convinced that people are out to get you, trying to stifle the voices in your head because they tell you to murder and rape and burn, and having dreams so vivid and horrifying that when u wake up you can recall even the most mind boggling of details of the people you just finished destroying, even though you are a good person with a good heart. I have, for seven years I have staoicly bared my burden and faught it with every tool I know of. Now I am seeking help because I feel that although it has been a valiant battle with many wins, I am slowly losing the war. To say that what I am doing is wrong in your eyes not only offends me but also shows a complete lack of empathy and understanding.

Be careful what you say and to whom about mental illness, not just online. You may offend people without meaning to, and luckily for you some of us who you may offend wont have an episode and think you are possessed by the devil and try to attack you, thanks to the same medications and psychiatry you are so adamently opposed to.

I am all for differing oppinions, but I do not want to have this thread degrade into a zealous rant and pointless arguement about the merrits of the system. Please refrain from continuing this discussion here, if you wish to start a thread "Is the Psychiatric System Effective" be my guest.

[virginiawang]

I am curious indeed. First, tell me where I come from, if you do know it. If not, do not make such assumptions.
Secondly, if I have offended you in any way, I am sure I do not know how I did it. I only want to let people know the effect of psychiatric medication in general. You can make your own choice however. As to the symptoms you mentioned in your post, I do not consider them serious. They're quite normal. You will have to choose to fight against them and live with them or to kill your mind. It is the reality. If you don't believe me, you can try medication of course.
If the situations you described had occurred, the one, sane or insane, can be dealt by law rather than by psychiatry. It is also absurd to confine a person and medicate him because he has a likelihood to hurt, either himself or other people. Then who will be the judge? Psychiatrists? No joking! Are they above God, who knows everything? I do not even know too much about the existence of God.
Before I close, let me tell all of you here that it is out of good will that I make known these facts. I am not radical. I am speaking of psychiatry in general.

Tell me where I come from. Do not brag about anything you do not know of.

[billl]

Virginia, "I know where you are coming from," is different than "I know where you come from." It means, "I understand your perspective." ie. I understand where your ideas are coming from.

Of course, Nax might have that wrong as well, but really, with that phrase, Nax was probably trying to say that he had read your posts and understood your points. It is a phrase meant to show an appreciation for your viewpoint, even though he might disagree.

[virginiawang]

I only wanted to let him know more about the outcome of receiving medications, before he jumps into that decision. I don't want to offend anyone. If he does not agree with me, that's OK.
Thank you, Billl.

[billl]

No problem, Virginia. You're a strong voice, and seem almost on your own in this thread at times. It looked to me like some of the others basically agreed with your sentiments *sometimes*, but maybe not as strongly. I think Nax is well-served by your very direct expressions of your concerns. It is a serious thing when we use technology to affect our very thoughts so directly, and it is important not to let the technology (or its purveyors) use us.

I think Nax's posts maybe reflect someone who is ready to be careful--and even critical, if the advice and treatment he receives are too automatic, haphazard, or immune to nuance, etc. I don't know, it is hard to describe the many ways something might seem "wrong" in such circumstances... I've read a lot of interesting posts, and with luck, Nax will meet with a physician who is aware of and concerned about these issues, and isn't just mechanically stamping out prescriptions according to some limited criteria, with no concern for the future.

[virginiawang]

I do not know how much all of you will understand me after you read my posts here, but I do not want to mislead you into thinking that I've been a woman to be bullied, either by psychiatrists or by other people. It is because I have a powerful lover. He will never allow anyone to treat me with disrespect. I believe only power matters in this world.
I have taken sleeping pills for more than ten years, and they do make me happy and give me the sensations I enjoy. Now they are given to me each month by my Hematology doctor. I cannot live without sleeping pills. I once read Confessions of an English Opium Eater, and I admired the author's talent tremendously. I love the way he wandered in his writing, describing the dreams he made when he ate opium. Since opium could give him such beautiful dreams and inspirations, I believe opium and drugs are much better than psychiatric pills. Drugs give people ideas like rainbows hanging over the sky, while psychiatric pills make people handicapped, living without a heart. Though I've never tried drugs, I believe sleeping pills are similar in its function to drugs, and I would like to try drugs if I have the chance in the future. However, due to my anemia, which is a fatal type, I do not think my body can take it. Anyway I have a high opinion about drugs, because they beautify thoughts. At least that's what I understand.

[soundofmusic]

Nax, you are quite right and I am sorry we have strayed so far from your point; you are correct that it would be better to open a new thread if people want to discuss the benefits and disadvantages of psychiatry.

I am amazed you have managed to live with these symptoms for so long and not lost all will to live. They are most certainly not normal; and no one should have to endure them on his own. You might want to keep a diary of your thoughts for yourself and your doctor; and differentiate between what you might fantasize about for distraction and what are common thoughts.

[virginiawang]

Be careful what you say and to whom about mental illness, not just online. You may offend people without meaning to, and luckily for you some of us who you may offend wont have an episode and think you are possessed by the devil and try to attack you, thanks to the same medications and psychiatry you are so adamently opposed to.

Hi Nax, You are partly right. I don't need a devil to come upon me because I am a devil myself. If anyone wants to attack me, please think again. A devil has many evil tricks.

[Jozanny]

Trying to broaden the discussion has been partially my fault, as this is a literary forum, not a group session at a partial hospital; I will, however, yield to Nax's wishes, allowing for one more comment:

I think virginia may see treatment through an authoritarianism that westerners are no longer subjected to, hence the disjunction, and now I think we should all shake hands and call it a day, unless we believe ourselves to be diagnostic experts, and Nax, try your search engine and look up MH forums. Try one and maybe you'll find more topical support.

[virginiawang]

What you posted above was far from the truth. Your wild guess went too far.
I believe psychiatric drugs are the same throughout the world. Are they not?



I think virginia may see treatment through an authoritarianism that westerners are no longer subjected to, hence the disjunction,
As far as I know, people all over the world, once get labeled, can hardly get it removed. Can people in your country refuse medications after they are diagnosed with certain mental illnesses? Do laws in your country allow psychiatric patients to walk in and out of a ward as much as they like? NO. Impossible.



I think virginia may see treatment through an authoritarianism that westerners are no longer subjected to, hence the disjunction,

Listen carefully! Authoritarian treatments can only befall unfortunate people. My lover will not allow anyone who once treated me with disrespect to be safe. I feel love.

[Gladys]

Few threads I have engaged in have shown the level of tolerance, forbearance and empathy for the feelings and ideas of others as Would a Sane Man...!

In this light, I empathise with Virginiawang. She calls herself 'a devil'; suspects 'anyone wants to attack me'; says 'only power matters'; has 'taken sleeping pills for more than ten years'; has 'a high opinion about drugs'; believes other posters are 'lying'; has 'trouble making friends or getting along with people'; indeed, she 'had no friends at all, but that suited me better'; has learned 'to look at everyone from above'; and has a lover who "will not allow anyone who once treated me with disrespect to be safe."

[The Atheist]

Sanity.

Phew, you really started something here - I hadn't bothered with this thread as having nothing meaningful to add, but then I was referred to virginia's comments in another thread, so I've read it all.

Fascinating stuff.


Am I insane, or just unique?

All of us are unique; I think the insanity part's been well covered.

Sounds to me like you're making all the right moves in direction and attitude right now - keep it up!


It's important to draw a distinction between mere eccentricity and actual mental illness. I suspect that to be a dedicated intellectual requires a certain degree of eccentricity in view of its rather esoteric nature.

Spoken like a true Englishman!

______________________________


I think threads like this are important - I did a bit of online discussion in this and several other forums a couple of years back to help gauge what percentage of people who post online are mentally ill. The rate was quite high, because - and I think Nax's posts show this - it's easier to discuss things anonymously.

[Nightshade]

I know I am coming in late, but I dont see why depression should be insanity, infact I think most of the most common metal illnesses are just that illnesses diseases many of them incurable but somewhat manageable. But insanity its such a harsh term. On a tangent I would like to suggest an interesting book The madness of Adam and Eve how Schizophrenia shaped the world . Anyway back to main point and i know I am going to regret this in morning, in the last year I have been diagnosed with recurring depression. The doctor recommended SSRI but I am refusing on the grounds there are more than enough drugs floating around my system on a daily basis as it is. Nax like you I very rarly barring my ummm let us stick with the name Ive been giving them for the last 10 years hibernation stages appear to be anything but a bubbly happy person, to the point that when Ididn tell my own bother my diagnosis she burst out laughing her opinion remains "rubbish" ( hardly the supportive attitude one would wish to find but I get where she is coming from).

I have several other issues but we won't get into that. Let us just say one of the reasons I am here in EGypt is that I am facing some of my demons, and in many ways I think its helping.


Speaking as a keen couch psych, have you implemented recent, research-based, practical advice for dealing with depression. On a daily basis:


Expose bare skin to ultra-violet rays from the sun - much more so in winter.


Do thirty minutes of heart-thumping exercise.


Have a large meal of oily fish.


Get at least eight hours sleep (if possible).


On the psychological front, have you considered that almost everyone has experienced all of your symptoms at one time or other. But the sane seek ways of forcefully channelling their errant thoughts and perceptions in different, more useful directions.
I have to add something I have discovered in the last couple of months, stay away from chocolate and refined sugars, its never worth the crash, especially if like me you are particularly prone to sugar highs the blues that follow can be crippling. I have found that what I eat has a very big affect on my mood.
Daniel I know what you mean about your mind going in 100 million different places a ponce and how tiring and frustrating that can be. I find constatly occupying at least a third of my mind with something helps me to function, and concentrate.
And virginia its amusing at times but when you forced to bite you cheek until it bleeds to stop yourself from 'testing the theory of gravity' with a plate piled high with food in a crowded 5 star restaurant in front of people its important you impress, it excitingness soon fades.

[Niamh]

Spoken like a true Englishman!


Welshman... if i'm not mistaken ;)

[soundofmusic]

I don't think any of us confuse depression with insanity; it's just that it is a non-confrontational place to begin a rapport. There are many forums set up with the concept of depression; but also offer separate threads for social anxiety, agoraphobia, suicidal feelings, and more severe illnesses with hallucinations or psychotic grandiosity.
Obviously, Nightshade, you and Nax are brilliant young people who have good senses of humor and occasionally need a bit of a helping hand or a strong shoulder (as we all do).With others on the forum, while much may appear to be a way of getting attention, could be an outcry for help that is far beyond our scope.

[Katy North]

I have to add something I have discovered in the last couple of months, stay away from chocolate and refined sugars, its never worth the crash, especially if like me you are particularly prone to sugar highs the blues that follow can be crippling. I have found that what I eat has a very big affect on my mood.


One other thing I feel I should add... the family member I mentioned earlier in the thread discovered a couple other things that effected her....

- She regularly drank alcohol, which effected her mood.

- she had an undiagnosed medical condition that, since it was untreated affected her mind.

It's a good idea to see a good old medical doctor for a thorough working over as well.

[Nax]

Ya I have heard that actually, when it comes to the more serious diagnosis they will test for medical conditions before settling on the final one.

Still waiting for my appointment with the clinic. I will try to report the process and procedures for those of you curious about the australian health system, or are thinking of seeking help yourselves. that way you can have an idea what its like and if its right for you.

Plus then I get to not be bored and will have something to type instead of just this filler:D

[The Atheist]

I will try to report the process and procedures for those of you curious about the australian health system, or are thinking of seeking help yourselves. that way you can have an idea what its like and if its right for you.

Plus then I get to not be bored and will have something to type instead of just this filler:D

Good god!

I hadn't even noticed you were from Adelaide.

Everyone there is nuts!

:D

[soundofmusic]

Good god!

I hadn't even noticed you were from Adelaide.

Everyone there is nuts!

:D

Well, if that's the case...and if Atheist said it, it must be...maybe it's a government test site. I'm pretty sure I saw some Adelaidean Gecos in insurance commercials with an extra eye and silver alien suits...

Nax, you probably don't need to go to the doctor...Just move in with Mr and Mrs Atheist, have a few of those heavy beef barbecues of his and you'll feel all better...

I'm moving to New Zealand also, I'm looking for mental health and a models body after 50...

[Jozanny]

Nax: I would not mind learning a little about the Australian intake system in comparison to the American one. Our intake system is in crisis for those that cannot afford to pay for quality mental health care, and has been for quite some time.

From what I can gather, there is an undercurrent towards more integration under our medical model. Mental health and dental have always been treated separately from medical care, and there is a growing movement to change that, in the sense that oral and physical and mental health are part of the same spectrum.


As far as I know, people all over the world, once get labeled, can hardly get it removed.

That depends on the label and what we choose to do with it. My very identity is wrapped up in my disability and my sense of failure due to the helplessness and the physical betrayal of my body, and when I use that anger to alienate others, then it may not be entirely the fault of able-bodied individuals to be leery of me. You go off in your posts in many different directions. People may not be able to respond to that as sympathetically as you might wish. Try to focus on one topic at a time.

[OrphanPip]

I grew up down the street from a psychiatric hospital, as did my mother, and I've been fascinated by the changes that the system has gone through.

Just 30 years ago people were routinely confined like prisoners at this hospital, but gradually over the years their has been an increasing shift towards out-patient treatment. My neighbourhood is now populated with public housing for the mentally disabled. Usually, with one person paid to be a sort of financial steward for a group of 5 to 6 individuals of the same sex to prevent exploitation. A friend of the family who worked her entire career as a nurse at the hospital says that this is largely a cost cutting venture, as the Canadian system is publicly funded. However, I can't help but feel this is better for the patients as well.

Well as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I had survived a suicide attempt (boohoo me ;p), and as a result spent a couple days in that psychiatric hospital. I wasn't allowed to leave until I could see a psychiatrist and be cleared as not being an immediate danger to myself or others, and then I was offered biweekly therapy covered by medicare. It wasn't the most comforting experience of my life. Being confined in a building with an armed guard at the door, and not being able to leave at will is not pleasant. I can't imagine how it can be for people who have to spend extended periods in institutions, not to mention a lifetime. I would say it's worse than prison, because nobody does anything to deserve to be locked away in an institution.

[The Atheist]

Nax: I would not mind learning a little about the Australian intake system in comparison to the American one. Our intake system is in crisis for those that cannot afford to pay for quality mental health care, and has been for quite some time.

Australia & NZ, along with UK, have public mental health services under the general public health system, so it doesn't compare.

[papayahed]

I grew up down the street from a psychiatric hospital, as did my mother, and I've been fascinated by the changes that the system has gone through.

Just 30 years ago people were routinely confined like prisoners at this hospital, but gradually over the years their has been an increasing shift towards out-patient treatment. My neighbourhood is now populated with public housing for the mentally disabled. Usually, with one person paid to be a sort of financial steward for a group of 5 to 6 individuals of the same sex to prevent exploitation. A friend of the family who worked her entire career as a nurse at the hospital says that this is largely a cost cutting venture, as the Canadian system is publicly funded. However, I can't help but feel this is better for the patients as well.

Well as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I had survived a suicide attempt (boohoo me ;p), and as a result spent a couple days in that psychiatric hospital. I wasn't allowed to leave until I could see a psychiatrist and be cleared as not being an immediate danger to myself or others, and then I was offered biweekly therapy covered by medicare. It wasn't the most comforting experience of my life. Being confined in a building with an armed guard at the door, and not being able to leave at will is not pleasant. I can't imagine how it can be for people who have to spend extended periods in institutions, not to mention a lifetime. I would say it's worse than prison, because nobody does anything to deserve to be locked away in an institution.


On the surface this isn't the same but kinda is. While in college I worked at a group home for mentally handicapped adults. There were six people living in a house and there were usually 2-3 "helpers" there at all times. One lady was brought to live in the house straight from an institution where she had lived for 30+ years. In the beginning she was like a wild woman, I don't think any of us hadn't been bitten or hit. Anyways just a year later the change was simply astounding. Instead of hiting and acting out she would articulate what was wrong. It was so fun to see because it just made life so much easier for her, once she could tell us what was wrong we could deal with it as opposed to sending her to her room because she hit somebody.

[Jozanny]

Australia & NZ, along with UK, have public mental health services under the general public health system, so it doesn't compare.

But I'd still like to learn how the intake works, if he could tell us a little without violating his privacy. I know how MH intake works here in certain instances. I do not know how it works there; it would be interesting to compare.

[Nax]

I will share as much as I can, Intake starts next week.

So far my understanding is that the clinic I have gotten in touch with is more of a hub then a centre. It gets the individual in touch with the needed help, and the helpers with the people who need them. I go for an examination first to see what the situation is (mostly to weed out those who are just addicts, or faking, or something else is really wrong) then from there I go to a GP which gives me something called a "mental action plan" which is basically just a voucher from the government entitling me to 6 free consultations with a psych (also arranged by the clinic). However I may just be misunderstanding and wont know for certain till next week.

I will however explain the details as they come, it will be good for others and a nice way to keep a diary of sorts for myself.

I think that in many cases hardcore psychiatric imprisonment (ie mental hospitals) can make the situation so much worse for people bordering on serious problems. If I had an episode and was thrown in a room with a guard for x days, I think it w ould probably tip me over the edge. I can understand in some cases its just safer, but in alot of cases it would be good to see people in centers with less prison feel, and rather just a retreat with observation and psych help.

[soundofmusic]

I know this may sound a little crazy; but as a medical person myself, I treat medical professionals, such as psychiatrists, the same way I would a friend. I evaluate them while they're evaluating me. I begin with the light problems and see if they are competent to deal with those before I give them the "motherload".
Most of the medical professionals I have met have "their own history". If you walk into a clinic and see a psychiatrist who just lost a child to suicide last year; saying, "I sometimes feel like just ending it all" may be enough to get you into a rubber room.

[Gladys]

...I treat medical professionals, such as psychiatrists, the same way I would a friend.

Sounds like sage advice to me.

Moreover I would continue to treat medical professionals, and their advice, as one would the advice of a friend - with the same respect, caution and deep scepticism - to the end. Perhaps the best question to ponder: "How evidence-based is this advice?"

[soundofmusic]

Sounds like sage advice to me.

Moreover I would continue to treat medical professionals, and their advice, as one would the advice of a friend - with the same respect, caution and deep scepticism - to the end. Perhaps the best question to ponder: "How evidence-based is this advice?"

Thank you, Gladys. And you're quite right, a diploma and a white coat doesn't give the person a crystal ball into your mind. It also doesn't hurt to look up your symptoms on the internet and get an idea of what treatments are being used and their side effects.