Is it rude to pray for someone of different beliefs?

[Nightshade]

Ive been thinking about this for a few days, the other day I noticed a comment on my cousins Facebook status,something along the lines of snd me your prayers. And it got me thinking for Muslims and also very much for Egyptians where the term has almost come a colluquilism equivalent of wish me good luck, we often say Pray for me, or something of the sort, and all my life I have done that. I will occasionally include people in my prayers, not the formal sallah prayers ( that's the 5 time s a day one) but with the more informal D'as which is more like having a word with God. Well except in cases like when my catholic Grandad was dying very slowly and painfully of cancer then there were all sorts of extra sallahs done.

But then I started thinking, I know some people get very offended if someone of a different faith prays for them. I am not talking about going around and telling people " I pray for your soul" or "I am praying you will see the light and convert" or even praying for such things I kind find rude, but little things like "Please let such and such gets the job they are looking for", or "please don't let it be cancer", or "let the baby come alright" or "please let them be happy with this decision" or " please keep so and so safe".

So I was wondering what people think f that, I am talking about anyone paying for anyone, say a Christian for a Muslim, a Muslim for a Jew , a Jew for an Atheist , a Hindu for spiritualist. The whole lot.

Basically what I am asking is How would you feel if you found out someone had been tagging you into their prayers for years and not telling you, just doing it anyway and keeping it quiet?
Would you be offended? Would you take it as a compliment that they like you well enough t try and keep you safe even if its not a way you believe in or believe will work? Will it some how upset you religiously?

[Niamh]

It doesnt bother me, unless someone was saying they were praying from my soul because i've "lost my faith" in their eyes. I havent lost my faith or beliefs, i've found it so it bothers be that some people can be so caught up in their own beliefs that they cant see others...

[billl]

I agree with the sensitivity to prayers that might be hinting (or more) at conversion. I'd like to also add that, in the case of a relative or friend that is somewhat focussed on converting others (via non-prayer methods, e.g. bringing religion up all of the time and being closed-minded about it), even a prayer for someone's health might be a surreptitious means of pressure, if it is mentioned in a particularly desperate manner or something like that. But, without there be some history of tension around the subject, I think praying for one of a different faith would probably be fine, perhaps even appreciated, even by a non-believer.

I always enjoy Nightshade's posts about religion (and everything else, of course). I can see this being a tricky and nuanced matter for some people, and I think it would, in some particulars, probably depend on the nature of the friendship or relationship between the pray-er and the prayed-for.

-----
And, to directly answer the questions at the end of the OP:
I wouldn't be offended, and I think it would be all the more meaningful the more that the friend had not made a show of their prayer. Not mentioning it at all might be going further than is necessary, but a simple and sincere (and not showy) mention would probably be appreciated. I can't imagine why someone would be upset about prayers that had been kept 'secret', provided there wasn't some sort of 'ambush' whereby the years of silent prayers were suddenly purposefully revealed. It sounds to me like keeping such prayers to oneself might be an excellent course for someone who is devout, but who is also considerate of a friend's attitudes.

[Nightshade]

Did I mention that the pray-er hasnt gone around dropping hins about the fact they have being praying for this person, I am just saying if the prayed for found out about it would they be offened.

And thanks billl! :D

[kasie]

As long as the pray-er wasn't trying to 'convert' me - a folorn hope, I fear, no matter what the religion, and what business is it of theirs anyway? - I would be rather touched that anyone cared enough about me to include me in their prayers. I suspect at least one good friend has been tagging me onto his prayer list for a good many years and in a strange way it comforts me to think he cares about me.

[AimusSage]

As an atheist I prefer people not to pray for me, but I also see that I can't control their actions and as such can at the most ask them not to pray for me. However, although I might not like it I also recognize the importance of prayer to those people, and if it makes them feel better to pray for me, I might not object as much.

Just don't ever pray for anything religious to happen to me, that would greatly offend me, but praying for my well-being etc, although I'd rather you didn't, would not offend me too much.

[papayahed]

As long as the pray-er wasn't trying to 'convert' me - a folorn hope, I fear, no matter what the religion, and what business is it of theirs anyway? - I would be rather touched that anyone cared enough about me to include me in their prayers. I suspect at least one good friend has been tagging me onto his prayer list for a good many years and in a strange way it comforts me to think he cares about me.


This.

I don't even really care if you pray that I'm converted, in fact I'm positive my mom does this all the time.

[JBI]

Depends I personally don't care, since I think praying is a waste of time - but, the question is, do you believe praying does anything, and if so, how could it be rude if it is doing good to them?

Of course, there is a problem though. You have whole countries obsessed with their own religions, who use "I'll pray for you" as another way of saying "I'll pray that you find Jesus Christ and repent your sins" or whatever. There is a whole subclass of people in quite a few countries with that mentality, and personally, I wouldn't want they knocking on my door, and I probably would say something quite offensive to them if they said that to me.

[Niamh]

Of course, there is a problem though. You have whole countries obsessed with their own religions, who use "I'll pray for you" as another way of saying "I'll pray that you find Jesus Christ and repent your sins" or whatever. There is a whole subclass of people in quite a few countries with that mentality, and personally, I wouldn't want they knocking on my door, and I probably would say something quite offensive to them if they said that to me.

my point exactly.

[The Comedian]

Hell no. It's rude of people to think that someone prayin' for 'em is rude. If someone wants to pray for you, all they're doin' is expressing concern on your behalf and trying to help. So let 'em send on up to the good Gawd. And say "thanks" to them too.

[blazeofglory]

In fact praying for someone of different faiths is not bad for me, and the problem lies in understanding others’ faiths, and no faiths must try to revile be rate others’ faiths, and in doing so we will widen the already existing gulf among different faiths. Here faiths do no mean their extreme forms where fundamentalisms and fanaticisms prevail and all that fundamentalists do is engage in indoctrinating or programming the innocent or indefensible people. I feel comfortable entering all religious shrines and mix up with all faith holders. I can congregate in togetherness with all faith holders or believers.

[Virgil]

Hell no. It's rude of people to think that someone prayin' for 'em is rude. If someone wants to pray for you, all they're doin' is expressing concern on your behalf and trying to help. So let 'em send on up to the good Gawd. And say "thanks" to them too.
I agree. I have prayed for someone of a very different faith and she has for me.


In fact praying for someone of different faiths is not bad for me, and the problem lies in understanding others’ faiths, and no faiths must try to revile be rate others’ faiths, and in doing so we will widen the already existing gulf among different faiths. Here faiths do no mean their extreme forms where fundamentalisms and fanaticisms prevail and all that fundamentalists do is engage in indoctrinating or programming the innocent or indefensible people. I feel comfortable entering all religious shrines and mix up with all faith holders. I can congregate in togetherness with all faith holders or believers.

Very good post Blaze. I think it does tend to bring people together and respect each other.

[grotto]

How would I feel if I found out someone was praying for me? Hmmm, I think my first response would be why? What makes you think I need to be prayed for? What specifically do you see in me that needs divine reverence and why do you think you are the channel for that?

I have no problem with anyone’s personal beliefs or systems of prayer, what I do wonder is why some think that they somehow know what is best for another and by deflecting their own inner awareness to the world around them find someone else to, how should I say, “fix”.

So pray away if it makes you feel good, but, who are you to define what another needs and why preoccupy your thoughts imagining those needs? If your prayer is to seek gods will, then your will for another is a contradiction.

[AimusSage]

How would I feel if I found out someone was praying for me? Hmmm, I think my first response would be why? What makes you think I need to be prayed for? What specifically do you see in me that needs divine reverence and why do you think you are the channel for that?

I have no problem with anyone’s personal beliefs or systems of prayer, what I do wonder is why some think that they somehow know what is best for another and by deflecting their own inner awareness to the world around them find someone else to, how should I say, “fix”.

So pray away if it makes you feel good, but, who are you to define what another needs and why preoccupy your thoughts imagining those needs? If your prayer is to seek gods will, then your will for another is a contradiction.
Well said.

[ClaesGefvenberg]

Would you take it as a compliment that they like you well enough t try and keep you safe even if its not a way you believe in or believe will work?I am in no way a religious person, but I am very firmly in favour of freedom of religion (including the right not to believe), and I do believe in treating people with kindness: I would regard prayers on my behalf as an act of kindness.

I have been subjected to more "malicious" wishes on numerous occasions, and with few exceptions been able to shrug those off. Taking offense when someone actually prays for me seems... oversensitive to say the least.

/Claes

[Nightshade]

Good this is just what I wanted a nice range of opinions.

Personally I take it as a sign of someone caring for me, plus I can see how when it s physically impossible to help someone that is comforting to pray because it gives you a feeling of having done something, makes you feel less helpless I guess.



If your prayer is to seek gods will, then your will for another is a contradiction.
I hadn't thought of it that way but I can see your point. I guess the idea is that praying in no way changes what God has planned or whatever but is more in the way of comforting. Hmm actually if we start down this road you end up on the Fate, destiny, predetermination conversation and that is so chaotic I think I will avoid that .
:nod:

[AimusSage]

Personally I take it as a sign of someone caring for me, plus I can see how when it s physically impossible to help someone that is comforting to pray because it gives you a feeling of having done something, makes you feel less helpless I guess. :
So the prayer is not for the person you want to help, but for you to feel less helpless? It's about you then.

[Nightshade]

Ehh kinda. You can pray for other people and other people can pray for me but when it comes down to it what will be will be as far as I am concerned, praying is usually about the pray-er but I do think that for the most part that is an subconious thing. Say if I am really worried about someone ( take an example my sister has been missing for 4 hours and her phone is switched off and being me I begin to see visions of car crashes) if I pray then I feel slightly less worried, at the same time in my mind I KNOW that if she is meant to die in a car crash tonight then all the praying I do in the world isn't going to alter God's Will, as it were. Put praying helps foucus my mind and in cases where I can do things it helps me organise my thoughts and start putting a plan of action into place. I can come up with ideas and have a clearer mind to make decisions about how to deal with a situation. So say last year when I found out my dayd had had a stroke and no one had planned to tell me until I had got back from prague ( and this was 10 days before I went) I wnet into shock for a couple of minutes then on autopilot started prying as it were and within minutes I had managed to figure out that a) I was the only person availabe to fly out to be with him, and come up with a 20 point plan on getting out of going to prague refunding money and chaging my plane tickets, who I would have to talk to about work, wether i would have to drop out of uni or deffer studies etc.
My plans were regected out of hand my mum dad though, and good news he is much better now.

See what I mean?

[AimusSage]

Somewhat, you say that a important aspect of prayer is just self reflection?

[Nightshade]

Somewhat, you say that a important aspect of prayer is just self reflection?

Define self reflection? And I have to point out different religions- different beliefs use prayer different, even different people .

But for me, then yeah I guess. There are different types and class and prayer of course but yes I guess prayer helps me to realise what I want how to get it, see whats wrong with my life and how to be a better person(?), or rather how to move my life more in line with my principles.

The Egyptians have a saying- perhaps slight blasphemous- for getting a good idea, it amounts to a I had a visitation from the Angel Gabriel ( meaning Divine Inspiration) and I guess I kind of believe that if I believe in the power of prayer that would be it, IMO that would be how God responds to most prayers by giving you an idea on how to deal with your issue. " god helps them who help themselves "etc. And yes in that case

But then again I believe that God gives you an opportunity to do something amazing, even if it is just make someone smile, every second of your life, you just need to see it and seize it and equally every moment of your life counts every moment of your life is a test not necessarily a big test but one all the same. Continuous ongoing assessment and all that.
:D

[Nightshade]

Ive just realised I should add that inspite of the fact that yes I think alot of it is to do with the pray-er as it were. I still think its a sign of caring about the prayed for because obviously the prayed for is on the mind of the pray-er enough to worry them and they care enough for them to pray for them. You get me?

[Mathor]

I think it kind of refers to the phrase "I'm gonna need all the help I can get". When someone is in a situation, like dealing with death, etc, even if that person's idea of helping conflicts with your own person beliefs, its honorable that that person is just doing something to help, even if you believe what them praying is of little value to you or your beliefs.

I just feel like in some situations, simply stating that you "wish them luck" might seem more rude.

[JBI]

I don't know - I never understood the point of praying - if it is God's will what happens, why then should someone pray to sway it?

[Nightshade]

I just feel like in some situations, simply stating that you "wish them luck" might seem more rude.

Pluss some cultures find the word 'luck' offensive. :nod:

[Pensive]

I don't really see why I should really be offended. I rather think it's rude to consider praying about people from different religions rude.


I don't know - I never understood the point of praying - if it is God's will what happens, why then should someone pray to sway it?

:nod:
Now that's an interesting question.

[blazeofglory]

Praying is a kind of renouncing and it helps us to merge or re-merge ourselves into other souls, and ultimately into the cosmic soul so that I can feel at one with the universal soul, with the cosmic soul.

I enjoy praying despite the fact that I am not religious. Religions are divisive forces and we have too many religions, battling endlessly eternally.

Let us pray in togetherness.

The word pray is really deep and profound and of course it helps us rise above all limits and boundaries that enable us to embrace cosmic realities. There are other realities, and of course prayers is a stair through which we can ascend to heaven, a domain where all of us can live in union, in congregation.

[Helga]

I think I would be a bit annoyed if someone told me they were praying for me, I don't like it when people say God bless you when I sneeze.

[NikolaiI]

I don't know - I never understood the point of praying - if it is God's will what happens, why then should someone pray to sway it?

I understand what you mean, but there are at least a few reasons. One is to pray for peace, pray for strength, etc., another is to pray for vision of God, to pray for knowledge, etc.

All is God's will, that is what they say. But I think it's best, for me, anyway, to only think of this in relation to what happens in my life. For instance if something bad happens, then I should accept that it has happened, and then act or not act, etc., - whether God's will, or fate, or just that it happened, the point is to accept that it has happened. But this is for things which happen to me which I may not like, and then I should rise above, generally, my own inclinations, and realize that I am only concerned, again, generally, because of my attachments.

And then also, there is the results of prayer. Prayer does have positive results, in our lives and in the lives of others. Thoughts all have an effect, great or small generally, perceptible or imperceptible. So it is like this. So prayer is benefical for all of one's being. One focuses the mind on God, and in this way becomes pure. As Buddha said, all actions are led by mind. Also, the existence and state, well-being of one's physical and spiritual self follows the mind. So if you pray, or in other words meditate on, and chant God's Name, then this can help in three ways primarily: one, by removing negative impulses or causes or desires; second, by preventing future negative impulses, causes or desires; three, by creating and preserving positive, affirming formations, causes and thoughts. This is the path of meditation or yoga recommended in Hindu devotion.

[qimissung]

That's quite lovely, Nikoli. For myself, I would be touched to find that anyone cared enough to include me in their prayers.

[Maximilianus]

If I were a warrior going to a war I wouldn't mind a Norse praying to Odin for me, nor would I mind a Celt praying to Morrighan, or an Arab praying to Allah!
Provided they don't pray for me to adore their gods, I would love someone to pray for my well-being, happiness, success, etc., regardless of the gods they believe in.

I'm not really prayerful. I used to be in the past, in a time when I often got despaired for any given reason. Now I haven't been so despaired for quite a long time. What I often do is to hope for people to get as much happiness as I want for myself. In fact, I wish you all a tremendous amount of happiness... and I hope you wish the same for me :D

[Virgil]

I wish you all a tremendous amount of happiness... and I hope you wish the same for me :D

Very nice sentiment Max. I wish the same for you.

[Maximilianus]

Very nice sentiment Max. I wish the same for you.

Thank you Virgil! :wave:

[billl]

What I often do is to hope for people to get as much happiness as I want for myself. In fact, I wish you all a tremendous amount of happiness... and I hope you wish the same for me :D

Thanks, right back at-cha! The very warm and human, consistently positive energy in your posts makes LitNet a happier place (imho).

[Maximilianus]

Thanks, right back at-cha! The very warm and human, consistently positive energy in your posts makes LitNet a happier place (imho).

Thanks a lot for your comments, billl. Really much appreciated!! :nod:

[blazeofglory]

Prayer is something that kind of soothes us, and as a matter of fact enhances our sensibility, equanimity, outdistance to all. I feel comfortable with all religious groups no matter wherefrom they come and which faiths they hold.

Of course praying in congregation with the rest of other faiths is really moving and it kind of broadens our perspectives and and develops positivity in us.

If we can pray in congregation or togetherness we will not have the kind of violence and enmity in this world, and there will not be any kind of threat here at all.

I have gone to churches and observed rituals and really felt high about them and similarly I have entered the mosque and was warm to them, and I felt brotherhood with them.

I really like to pray together with other faith holders breaking through age-old differences and kind of enmity.

I imagine the world would have been really far better if all do not feel alienated from one another and feel threaded harmoniously together regardless of their religious.

[Jazz_]

Whether they believe their prayers will be heard/answered or are simply praying for their own peace of mind - I would have no problem with anyone including me in their prayers.

It is just a different form of caring for you - if they were not religious they may 'hope for the best', and you would still occupy their thoughts, if not their prayers. I would be grateful that someone cared this much for me.

Although I'm not a religious person, I understand that religion is an important aspect in many people's lives - and if praying makes them feel better - I say pray away.

[Maximilianus]

It is just a different form of caring for you - if they were not religious they may 'hope for the best', and you would still occupy their thoughts, if not their prayers. I would be grateful that someone cared this much for me.
Yes, it's much better than being forgotten, or not taken into serious consideration. It's better to be remembered I think.

[Taliesin]

From wikipedia:

Several studies of prayer effectiveness have yielded null results.[5] A 2001 double-blind study of the Mayo Clinic found no significant difference in the recovery rates between people who were (unbeknownst to them) assigned to a group that prayed for them and those who were not.[66] Similarly, the MANTRA study conducted by Duke University found no differences in outcome of cardiac procedures as a result of prayer.[67] In another similar study published in the American Heart Journal in 2006,[68] Christian intercessory prayer when reading a scripted prayer was found to have no effect on the recovery of heart surgery patients; however, the study found patients who had knowledge of receiving prayer had slightly higher instances of complications than those who did not know if they were being prayed for or those who did not receive prayer.[6][69] Another 2006 study suggested that prayer actually had a significant negative effect on the recovery of cardiac bypass patients, resulting in more frequent deaths and slower recovery time for those patient who received prayers.[70]

Letting people pray for me and letting me know - sounds a bit risky.

(It depends on the context, I`d say, who is saying it and the tone of it.
Generally, if it means "I hope you do well and I care for you" then the emotional support is nice and outweighs the tiny risks mentioned above so I like it. However, when there is a suggestion of conversion, I dislike it. As simple as that.)

[caddy_caddy]

Basically what I am asking is How would you feel if you found out someone had been tagging you into their prayers for years and not telling you, just doing it anyway and keeping it quiet?/
I'll be so happy cz it means they care for me .


Pluss some cultures find the word 'luck' offensive
I am a moslem and I wish good luck to my friends ; no one feels offended and they are moslem too .



Originally Posted by JBI
I don't know - I never understood the point of praying - if it is God's will what happens, why then should someone pray to sway it?

Praying is a transcendental experience . Although it is a must in our religion , I don't do it regulary and daily . I only pray for people whom I love when they are sick or in difficult ciscumstances . When we pray TRUTHFULLY we stand within the hands of GOD and HE listen . Dad died two weeks ago ; he sinned a lot and suffered a lot .I was really afraid of the grave punishment
imagining all what happens there ( according to us). So I spent hours praying God not to torture dad in the grave . Not to speak about the whole experience but I really felt that my prayer was useful and God listened to
me and accepted it . Dad was smiling and his face was peaceful and happy as he's going to a better life and a better place. GOD is merciful ;He can sway His will by His own will for our sake .

[Shadrach59]

... @ JBI---- Prayer was first instituted by the most influetial master of the earth, Jesus Christ, who taught his apostles to pray. If He felt the way you did, that prayers were futile, thinkest thou you that he would place such faith in prayers? He prayed diligently for his fellow apostles, and also for those who were misled and carried away by "false teachings & twisted doctrines" of men who were regarded as wicked by him and his Father. Also, whom do you regard as a "subclass" of people? Thinkest thou you to be above other men? Jesus did not hold any class of men above the other, because he "gave his life.. that ALL sorts of men be saved." I feel saddened by your lack of faith in prayer... it is the most powerful weapon we have against the adversary, Satan. Hopefully you will feel differently about it. ...And I will pray for you.--- Shad

[Shadrach59]

@ Caddy... A God of love does not punish the dead... " for the wages of sin is ... death" . In the Bible, there is a scripture that reads. "The dead... they are concious of nothing, neither have they anymore wages, for the memory of them is forgotten... neither is there hate, nor love, nor anguish, for they all have perished". So, your father paid for all his sins when he died... and what is more, he is not being "tortured" by God... for"with wicked thing He cannot be tried... not tries He anyone." Jesus referred to his friend Lazarus as being "asleep in death", giving lend to the fact that he was concious of nothing.---

[caddy_caddy]

@ Caddy... A God of love does not punish the dead... " for the wages of sin is ... death" . In the Bible, there is a scripture that reads. "The dead... they are concious of nothing, neither have they anymore wages, for the memory of them is forgotten... neither is there hate, nor love, nor anguish, for they all have perished". So, your father paid for all his sins when he died... and what is more, he is not being "tortured" by God... for"with wicked thing He cannot be tried... not tries He anyone." Jesus referred to his friend Lazarus as being "asleep in death", giving lend to the fact that he was concious of nothing.---

A God of love is a God of justice too.You do punish your kids although you love them and maybe because you love them .But MERCY is prior to justice .God has 99 names and we are asked to begin everything , for istance reading the KORAN, by using only two names that have to do with Mercy.
So that mercy would be prior in our consciousness of God .
Death is the physical end of the body . the soul is eternal and we will take it back once we are burried. I read once that in Christianity too the soul is eternal. Am I right?


for the wages of sin is ... death" . In the Bible, there is a scripture that reads. "The dead... they are concious of nothing, neither have they anymore wages, for the memory of them is forgotten... neither is there hate, nor love, nor anguish, for they all have perished".

It is not the case in Islam .It is mentioned in the KORAN that there is another stage in the grave .The engraved take backtheir soul (they can feel pain or happiness), they can feel the others , the living people. they can listen to us and feel us but we can't .

So, your father paid for all his sins when he died[/QUOTE]

The physical pain eliminates sin and purify the sinners . the sin against God " can be forgiven * but the sin of man against his fellow man can't be forgotten*. It is a principle in Islam.
Maybe he paid for his sins against God but those of others would be kept till the Resurrection Day/the judgment day unless he is
forgiven by them.



Jesus referred to his friend Lazarus as being "asleep in death", giving lend to the fact that he was conscous of nothing.---

I read once this same term *asleep*in one of Ahadeeth
( the speech of Mohammad P.B.U.H) describing the status of the one who are forgiven and happy in the grave , not tortured. "ey are asleep like a bride's asleep."

[Shalot]

How would I feel if I found out someone was praying for me? Hmmm, I think my first response would be why? What makes you think I need to be prayed for? What specifically do you see in me that needs divine reverence and why do you think you are the channel for that?

I have no problem with anyone’s personal beliefs or systems of prayer, what I do wonder is why some think that they somehow know what is best for another and by deflecting their own inner awareness to the world around them find someone else to, how should I say, “fix”.

So pray away if it makes you feel good, but, who are you to define what another needs and why preoccupy your thoughts imagining those needs? If your prayer is to seek gods will, then your will for another is a contradiction.

What if they're just praying for your well-being without any sort of judgement or specific outcome? I can see where you're coming from here, but if it's just a prayer for you or a direction of that universal unconditional love toward you then I don't see a problem with it. And maybe if it is a prayer for you and what actually is best for you and not what that person thinks is best for you, and if the prayer is for the greater good then it's a good prayer I think. I'll take those kind of prayers in any language or from anyone practicing most any religion I think.

[Mystified]

My question is if you pray for someone of a different faith than you, does your God recognize it? Would their God recognize it, or would they both? Maybe it would be for nothing because neither would since you both don't recognize the same God. I honestly don't know where my own religion stands on such a thing, maybe someone is knowledgable as to how it is perceived.

[JBI]

... @ JBI---- Prayer was first instituted by the most influetial master of the earth, Jesus Christ, who taught his apostles to pray. If He felt the way you did, that prayers were futile, thinkest thou you that he would place such faith in prayers? He prayed diligently for his fellow apostles, and also for those who were misled and carried away by "false teachings & twisted doctrines" of men who were regarded as wicked by him and his Father. Also, whom do you regard as a "subclass" of people? Thinkest thou you to be above other men? Jesus did not hold any class of men above the other, because he "gave his life.. that ALL sorts of men be saved." I feel saddened by your lack of faith in prayer... it is the most powerful weapon we have against the adversary, Satan. Hopefully you will feel differently about it. ...And I will pray for you.--- Shad

That is ahistorical. I am somewhat of an Historian and various forms of prayer clearly existed before 1AD.

[BookBeauty]

I'd like to keep my faith a mystery for the benefit of this and future discussions. I could be Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Taoist, Atheist, Agnostic, Pantheist... Etc.

I've read somewhere that praying for someone, when they don't even realize it, actually helps them. If they do realize you're praying for them, it doesn't. The source of this might be faulty, but I thought it interesting at the time.

I believe we're all in this together, and caring about others enough to wish them the best is what will help humanity grow and prosper as a whole.

Mahatma Gandhi would meditate in such a way, that he would envision all of the world's suffering, and he would imagine it all being absorbed into his body. I think that is one of the most selfless things I've ever heard.

Whether anyone agrees with it or not, I honestly don't think that it will hurt anyone. It may cause some dispute among the more fanatic believers in any faith, or non-faith if brought up and said, ''I prayed for you!'' But, it's likely best to tread lightly when it comes to faith anyway, and to be discreet with your sentiments when it comes to those individuals. :)

[cafolini]

I'm little concerned with prayers for others, but I think they are in the everyday life of everyone. Can you conceive of any hope that has no prayers attached to it? Can you conceive of anyone that actually has no hope at all? I can't no matter what they say.
Finally, can you conceive of anyone who has not some hope for someone else and some attached prayer. Prayer doesn't have to be oration.

[OrphanPip]

I've read somewhere that praying for someone, when they don't even realize it, actually helps them. If they do realize you're praying for you, it doesn't. The source of this might be faulty, but I thought it interesting at the time.


It's the other way around, prayer has a placebo effect when believers are aware they are being prayed for.

[Paulclem]

It's the other way around, prayer has a placebo effect when believers are aware they are being prayed for.

I'm shocked, Orphan, by your unscientific attitude. How can you know it's a placebo effect when there's no evidence to say it is'nt a real effect.

:biggrin5:

[BienvenuJDC]

I could see it being rude NOT to pray for others according to how I believe. If I believe that the God that I worship would intervene in any one of your lives, why wouldn't I want your life to be better off? Nor would I be offended if you prayed for me to a god that I did not believe in.

[KCurtis]

As an athiest I would not be offended if someone prayed for me, if those prayers were meant to lessen sadness, wish me well, a blessing of hope, etc. If someone tells me they will pray for me to become religious, that is a whole other story, and I would not like that at all. It assumes that not having a religion is wrong.
I have had people say they will pray for me, and in every case it was with sincerity. I have always thanked them politely.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

As someone disabled, I've often been told by people, almost always older, that they would pray for me. Being an atheist, I don't think it does a thing, but I don't mind. I certainly don't think it can hurt. If anything, it might help. Maybe there's something to be said for someone sending good vibes your way.

[YesNo]

I remember once telling a Christian that I had this cold to avoid attending some Sunday school activity he was hoping I would join. And indeed I did have a cold. Every winter for a few years I would get this lingering cough that would last a couple of months. So he put his hand on my shoulder with my wife and children watching, bowed his head and prayed for me right there on the spot.

I was somewhat embarrassed but I was touched by his concern for me and went along with it bowing my head as well since that is apparently what you are supposed to do. When he was done, I thanked him and we went on our way.

Three or four days later my cold was gone. That was a good decade ago and I haven't had it since.

I didn't attend his Sunday activities and we no longer live near his church, but I have always had fond memories of this man and think there is more to prayer than meets the eye.

[JuniperWoolf]

Someone once told me that they'd pray for me for the rest of their life. I sometimes wonder if she still does. If so she's a very tenacious woman, it's been almost seven years since she said that.

[Scheherazade]

Since the beginning of this thread, I am trying to understand why and under what circumstances it would be rude to pray for someone else (of same or different beliefs). In my view, when someone prays it concerns the "prayer", not the "prayee"... If you want to include someone into your conversation with God, that is fine. I am not sure why one even has to let the other person know that their name has come up during the last chat with God in whatever context that might be.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Since the beginning of this thread, I am trying to understand why and under what circumstances it would be rude to pray for someone else (of same or different beliefs). In my view, when someone prays it concerns the "prayer", not the "prayee"... If you want to include someone into your conversation with God, that is fine. I am not sure why one even has to let the other person know that their name has come up during the last chat with God in whatever context that might be.

I'm not sure why anyone would find it offensive, either. It is ultimately am act of kindness and compassion, and there's not enough of that in this world as it is. I haven't read this whole thread, but has anyone said that they would be offended if someone prayed for them?

The only person on this forum that I can think of who might feel that way is The Atheist (though I doubt even he would), but he hasn't been active for a while.

[OrphanPip]

Since the beginning of this thread, I am trying to understand why and under what circumstances it would be rude to pray for someone else (of same or different beliefs). In my view, when someone prays it concerns the "prayer", not the "prayee"... If you want to include someone into your conversation with God, that is fine. I am not sure why one even has to let the other person know that their name has come up during the last chat with God in whatever context that might be.

Well the Mormon Church posthumously baptises holocaust victims and other famous Jews, which some in the American Jewish community have taken great offence to.

I think what was said earlier, about the intention of the prayer, does matter. I would be offended if someone told me they were going to pray to change my lifestyle or religious beliefs. If they want to pray for my health? Well it's their time wasted.

[Scheherazade]

Well the Mormon Church posthumously baptises holocaust victims and other famous Jews, which some in the American Jewish community have taken great offence to. As in converting them into Christianity?

If so, I think that is quite different from simply praying for someone, isn't it? Like changing one's vote in an election or nationality without their consent.


I think what was said earlier, about the intention of the prayer, does matter. I would be offended if someone told me they were going to pray to change my lifestyle or religious beliefs. If they want to pray for my health? Well it's their time wasted.Exactly that sentiment in your last sentence. I don't think I would feel offended if someone prayed that I changed my religious beliefs and so on. To be offended by that means that I give credit to their views and prayers, in my opinion.

I hope I would have the maturity and wisdom (not to mention patience) to say "thank you" if it is a "good" prayer and to laugh it off if it is otherwise.

[tonywalt]

Someone once told me that they'd pray for me for the rest of their life. I sometimes wonder if she still does. If so she's a very tenacious woman, it's been almost seven years since she said that.

And what sin did you commit to be granted such an honour:angelsad2:

[Varenne Rodin]

I don't care how a person wastes their own time as long as they don't bother me with it (they frequently bother me with it). I rarely accuse people of being rude. More often people are angry with me for refusing to pray. Maybe they should reflect on themselves, take responsibility for their lives. Ignore mine.

[Paulclem]

I don't care how a person wastes their own time as long as they don't bother me with it (they frequently bother me with it). I rarely accuse people of being rude. More often people are angry with me for refusing to pray. Maybe they should reflect on themselves, take responsibility for their lives. Ignore mine.

That sounds like prayers with an agenda, which I too would find distasteful.

Unless it is a power trip for someone, then I can't see what problem there is. What are prayers but best wishes set into the context of a person's beliefs.

[YesNo]

If prayers are not best wishes or if someone is praying to some demon to cause me harm, I suppose I would feel hurt if I found out. It would be like finding out someone is talking negatively behind my back or to my face.

However, ultimately, I would try not to mind, since there is likely little that I can do about it anyway. I can only try to control my own negative thoughts.

[Paulclem]

If prayers are not best wishes or if someone is praying to some demon to cause me harm, I suppose I would feel hurt if I found out. It would be like finding out someone is talking negatively behind my back or to my face.

However, ultimately, I would try not to mind, since there is likely little that I can do about it anyway. I can only try to control my own negative thoughts.

Just don't take any pieces of paper with runic symbols on from anyone. :smile5:

[Darcy88]

Considering what Christians believe, if you were in some sort of close relation to one and they didn't ever pray for you I would regard that in itself as rude. However I do understand why one might take offence were a Christian to pray for you to acquire faith or to, say, alter your sexuality.

[YesNo]

I wonder what "prayer" is. Perhaps it is just thinking about someone with an intention that something happens to the other person. I suspect such thoughts do have power at least to influence the behavior of the person having them.

If a Christian were to pray that I became a Christian or change my behavior according to their standards, I would take that as a kindness from their perspective. It would not be offensive. There are people, Christian or not, who are hostile and their thoughts (or prayers?) in that state of mind are not likely positive. They would probably hope that I'd go to hell rather than be converted.

Luckily I can't read the runic symbols. :)

[Darcy88]

I wonder what "prayer" is. Perhaps it is just thinking about someone with an intention that something happens to the other person. I suspect such thoughts do have power at least to influence the behavior of the person having them.

If a Christian were to pray that I became a Christian or change my behavior according to their standards, I would take that as a kindness from their perspective. It would not be offensive. There are people, Christian or not, who are hostile and their thoughts (or prayers?) in that state of mind are not likely positive. They would probably hope that I'd go to hell rather than be converted.

Luckily I can't read the runic symbols. :)

That's interesting. I've never heard of a Christian actually praying for God to send someone to hell. Either they recognize how un-Christian it is or they just don't admit that they ever do it.

[BienvenuJDC]

That's interesting. I've never heard of a Christian actually praying for God to send someone to hell. Either they recognize how un-Christian it is or they just don't admit that they ever do it.

Believe me...there are those who CLAIM to be Christians who would definitely do that. Those people will be sadly surprised someday. I would pray that everyone make it to paradise in the end (whatever you may think paradise is for you).

[YesNo]

That's interesting. I've never heard of a Christian actually praying for God to send someone to hell. Either they recognize how un-Christian it is or they just don't admit that they ever do it.
There are people, Christian or not, who hope others get punished in some extreme way for wrongs they might have done, real or imagined, and gotten away with. By the way, as I look back on my life, I'm probably just as guilty as the next guy of this.

[Darcy88]

There are people, Christian or not, who hope others get punished in some extreme way for wrongs they might have done, real or imagined, and gotten away with. By the way, as I look back on my life, I'm probably just as guilty as the next guy of this.

I kind of envy Christians the almost unimaginable extent to which their faith allows them to indulge in spite. Praying to your all-powerful God that He consign one to eternal torment in the fiery bowels of hell is something an atheist has no means to match. Or is wishing that they die and be forever blotted entirely out of existence a wish even more depraved? I've never genuinely hoped for the death or damnation of anyone, but in those moments following the suffering of a grievous wrong, deprived of recourse to action, resentment is sometimes all you have.

[JuniperWoolf]

And what sin did you commit to be granted such an honour:angelsad2:

Haha, it was supposed to be a reward in this case, I helped the lady's daughter. I was taken aback, I just said "...thank you." Is that what you're supposed to say, or is there some prescribed social format when someone says that they'll mention you in their prayers?

[YesNo]

I kind of envy Christians the almost unimaginable extent to which their faith allows them to indulge in spite. Praying to your all-powerful God that He consign one to eternal torment in the fiery bowels of hell is something an atheist has no means to match. Or is wishing that they die and be forever blotted entirely out of existence a wish even more depraved? I've never genuinely hoped for the death or damnation of anyone, but in those moments following the suffering of a grievous wrong, deprived of recourse to action, resentment is sometimes all you have.
I wonder if such resentment could be viewed as a kind of hostile prayer? Admittedly if an atheist does it there is no one they are praying to, but the process may be similar. One thing I've noticed about people, including myself, is that we often magnify the wrong that is done to us.

Initially, I didn't think of prayer as being something hostile and perhaps it isn't. Perhaps the damning of someone to hell is not a prayer at all.

[tonywalt]

Haha, it was supposed to be a reward in this case, I helped the lady's daughter. I was taken aback, I just said "...thank you." Is that what you're supposed to say, or is there some prescribed social format when someone says that they'll mention you in their prayers?

Lucky you! I have a small group of people, albeit demented people, praying for me for "bad" things. So far results are mixed to say the least.

[OrphanPip]

One thing I find not quite offensive, but very annoying. Is when I'm asked to pray with someone. This occurs to me in the park occasionally when I get assaulted by weird Christian missionaries.

[YesNo]

One thing I find not quite offensive, but very annoying. Is when I'm asked to pray with someone. This occurs to me in the park occasionally when I get assaulted by weird Christian missionaries.
How did the Christian missionary "assault" you?

[OrphanPip]

How did the Christian missionary "assault" you?

I was being facetious.

[Paulclem]

One thing I find not quite offensive, but very annoying. Is when I'm asked to pray with someone. This occurs to me in the park occasionally when I get assaulted by weird Christian missionaries.

That's one of the best things about the UK. You hardly ever get any hassle from people who are out proselytizing. In our city there's a sort of informal speakers corner where a Christian group has a few preachers on. It's all a bit low key, and the preachers look a bit apologetic and shy about it, so everyone seems to ignore them for decorum's sake.

[PMLondonderry]

I, personally, would not be offended. The only time it might cross a line is when someone says "I will pray you see the light" because, to me, that comes off aggressive.

The only time I might not actually ask someone to pray for me is if they have different beliefs than me (I am a Muslim). Not because of specific reason, just because I only actually ask for prayers from other Muslims.

But no, I would never be offended if someone, of any religion, kept me in their prayers. I would actually be very flattered.

[billl]

One thing I find not quite offensive, but very annoying. Is when I'm asked to pray with someone. This occurs to me in the park occasionally when I get assaulted by weird Christian missionaries.

Being approached in the park for the purposes of the "approachers'" religion would certainly be annoying (same is true of interruptions during a lunch break at a plaza in the city, at university, etc.), whether they want to drag one into a prayer or not. An atheist relative of someone I know was understandably annoyed and made a lot of noise (I wasn't there but heard about it) when a priest (someone he had never met before) was brought to the room of his deathbed for some religious purpose or another, probably involving prayer.

Simply "having someone in one's prayers" isn't something that should offend even the least religious I don't think, especially if it's kindly and simply mentioned, or not even mentioned at all. But there's ways in which even the well-meaning person can cross over into disrespectful behavior because of religious zeal/conviction or impulses to proselytize (not to mention those who might not be so well-meaning, underneath it all).

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I think someone mentioned earlier the Mormon practice of baptizing dead people, particularly victims of the holocaust, essentially making them Mormon . . . at least in the Mormons' eyes. Just saw a pretty funny piece on Colbert about it. That I do find offensive, and quite bizzarre/morbid/insane.

[Paulclem]

I think someone mentioned earlier the Mormon practice of baptizing dead people, particularly victims of the holocaust, essentially making them Mormon . . . at least in the Mormons' eyes. Just saw a pretty funny piece on Colbert about it. That I do find offensive, and quite bizzarre/morbid/insane.

Well, if they're right in their beliefs, then it would be a good thing that they're thinkng of others. If their beliefs are incorrect, then it doesn't matter.

The good result of their work is that they are a very good family history reference.

Is that a win win win? :D

[OrphanPip]

I think someone mentioned earlier the Mormon practice of baptizing dead people, particularly victims of the holocaust, essentially making them Mormon . . . at least in the Mormons' eyes. Just saw a pretty funny piece on Colbert about it. That I do find offensive, and quite bizzarre/morbid/insane.

Someone set up a parody site called www.alldeadmormonsarenowgay.com.

[Paulclem]

Someone set up a parody site called www.alldeadmormonsarenowgay.com.

:lol:

[YesNo]

I'd like to keep my faith a mystery for the benefit of this and future discussions. I could be Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Taoist, Atheist, Agnostic, Pantheist... Etc.

I've read somewhere that praying for someone, when they don't even realize it, actually helps them. If they do realize you're praying for them, it doesn't. The source of this might be faulty, but I thought it interesting at the time.

I believe we're all in this together, and caring about others enough to wish them the best is what will help humanity grow and prosper as a whole.

Mahatma Gandhi would meditate in such a way, that he would envision all of the world's suffering, and he would imagine it all being absorbed into his body. I think that is one of the most selfless things I've ever heard.

Whether anyone agrees with it or not, I honestly don't think that it will hurt anyone. It may cause some dispute among the more fanatic believers in any faith, or non-faith if brought up and said, ''I prayed for you!'' But, it's likely best to tread lightly when it comes to faith anyway, and to be discreet with your sentiments when it comes to those individuals. :)
I am reading a book by Elizabeth Lloyd Mayer, Extraordinary Knowing, and came upon a chapter this evening called "Measuring the Power of Prayer" which reminded me of your post.

The chapter starts out with a study by Cha, Wirth and Lobo in the Journal of Reproductive Medicine, Sept 2001, of women who received in vitro fertilization in Korea. Half of the group received prayers by people in the United States, Canada or Australia. 50% of the women in the group receiving prayers became pregnant compared to 26% in the group that did not. She writes that these results "suggest the possibility that intention can affect people halfway around the world."

What was amazing is that any placebo effect was eliminated in this study because the women did not know they were part of any study therefore did not know they were being prayed for or not.

[OrphanPip]

The chapter starts out with a study by Cha, Wirth and Lobo in the Journal of Reproductive Medicine, Sept 2001, of women who received in vitro fertilization in Korea. Half of the group received prayers by people in the United States, Canada or Australia. 50% of the women in the group receiving prayers became pregnant compared to 26% in the group that did not. She writes that these results "suggest the possibility that intention can affect people halfway around the world."

What was amazing is that any placebo effect was eliminated in this study because the women did not know they were part of any study therefore did not know they were being prayed for or not.

Unfortunately, that study is certainly fraudulent and has subsequently been retracted by the JRM. Dr. Cha gathered this data from Wirth, which was never presented to a review board at Columbia University, and has refused to defend the study and is no longer employed by Columbia. Wirth is a con-artist who did not have a medical degree and is now in jail in the US for fraud, and has a history of identity theft and presenting false credentials. Wirth has a history of using supernatural "research" for profit.

The study itself apparently involves a ridiculously convoluted protocol that violates any standard of basic scientific practice and a proper peer review board should have stopped this article way before it saw the light of day.

[billl]

I am reading a book by Elizabeth Lloyd Mayer, Extraordinary Knowing, and came upon a chapter this evening called "Measuring the Power of Prayer" which reminded me of your post.

The chapter starts out with a study by Cha, Wirth and Lobo in the Journal of Reproductive Medicine, Sept 2001, of women who received in vitro fertilization in Korea. Half of the group received prayers by people in the United States, Canada or Australia. 50% of the women in the group receiving prayers became pregnant compared to 26% in the group that did not. She writes that these results "suggest the possibility that intention can affect people halfway around the world."

What was amazing is that any placebo effect was eliminated in this study because the women did not know they were part of any study therefore did not know they were being prayed for or not.

Well, there's certainly some interesting info available about that study, and its authors:

Here's an article by a guy named Flamm, which became a reading as part of of a Univ. of Illinois at Chicago course (this includes the original paper by Cha, Wirth, and Lobo) (http://www.uic.edu/classes/psych/Health/Readings/Prayer%20-%20in-vitro%20fertilization,%20JrRepMed-Skeptical%20Inquirer.doc)
here's a simple link to it elsewhere (this time without the original paper)
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/columbia_university_miracle_study_flawed_and_fraud/

In this USC Annenberg blog entry, Flamm describes (http://www.reportingonhealth.org/blogs/qa-dr-bruce-flamm-promoting-sketchy-science-harms-medicine-and-faith) the fall out following his criticism of the study and its authors. The interview includes this:


Q: Throughout all these years, has there been another prayer study that has bolstered the case that was being made in that study?

A: There were two big studies that came after this one. The STEP study and the MANTRA study. Both were huge, multi-center studies funded by millions of dollars and looking at thousands of people. They were looking at prayer in healing, not necessarily infertility. Both of them concluded that prayer had no effect on medical outcomes.

Q: Do you still see the Cha-Wirth-Lobo study cited by advocates of faith healing?

A: It has been cited for many years. You can still go to PubMed and find the abstract online. There have been many small prayer studies over the years. Usually they found a 1% or 2% improvement. The amazing thing about the Cha-Wirth-Lobo study was the 100% improvement they found.


Time Magazine got ahold of the story, and has a brief article on it.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,982245,00.html

Here's a summary (from the first-linked article(s) above, where his reasoning can be found, this is just the concluding portion...) of Flamm's opinion about the authors of the Cha/Wirth/Lobo study:

Conclusion
In summary, one of the authors of the Columbia Cha/Wirth/Lobo study has left the University and refuses to comment, another now claims he did not even know about the study until six months to a year after its completion and also refuses to comment. The remaining author is on his way to federal prison for fraud and conspiracy. Fraud is the operative word here. In reality, the Columbia University prayer study was based on a bewildering study design and included many sources of error. But worse than flaws, in light of all of the shocking information presented above, one must consider the sad possibility that the Columbia prayer study may never have been conducted at all.

Finally, Daniel Wirth’s history of criminal fraudulent activity casts a dark shadow over many of the supposedly seminal publications in the field of alternative and faith healing...

Finally,
Daniel Wirth and a paragraph summary of the IVF-ET prayer scandal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_on_intercessory_prayer#The_IVF-ET_prayer_scandal

[JuniperWoolf]

One thing I find not quite offensive, but very annoying. Is when I'm asked to pray with someone. This occurs to me in the park occasionally when I get assaulted by weird Christian missionaries.

That's never happened to me before. What do you do?

[MarkBastable]

I was being facetious.

I've developed a font for that.

[MarkBastable]

That's never happened to me before. What do you do?

I could tell you - or anyone else who wants to know - what a friend of mine did, but - funny though it is - it'd probably get me banned on the spot. However, if any litnetter would like to PM me, I'll consider telling the story in private. Persons of a religious persuasion need not apply.

[YesNo]

Thanks for the links and responses, OrphanPip and billl.

I'm aware of some of the controversy related to this study as well as the MANTRA study from Lloyd Mayer's book itself. I'll have to see where this takes me, but I definitely want to look at the criticism as well. She does provide enough footnotes to be keep me busy.

What this has done for me is modified the word "prayer" in this context to "intention" directed at others. Does it have any power? And what about negative intention? This is beyond typical mind-body intentionality where a person's own intention affects that person's own body. Here the intentionality affects others.

[BookBeauty]

What this has done for me is modified the word "prayer" in this context to "intention" directed at others. Does it have any power? And what about negative intention? This is beyond typical mind-body intentionality where a person's own intention affects that person's own body. Here the intentionality affects others.

It's certainly something to think about. Are our wishes and hopes simply brain fodder? Can they be useful? Destructive?

There's a Chinese saying that I'm paraphrasing here. If you water a plant with positive energy, it will grow and thrive. If you water a plant with negative energy, it will grow and thrive. It's only if you don't water the plant at all that it will die and decay.

I certainly hope that our intentions don't have even a miniscule effect on the world. Because there are a lot of people who hope and wish for very terrible things. You can't have the good side without the bad.

[shangib74]

I don't see a problem with it about a year and a half ago my husband was in a very serious car accident. He was in the ICU for 3 weeks and the hospital for another 2 months. He lost his arm and there were several other issues. I asked for prayers for him and didn't care who sent them or what religion they are. I had people from all over the world sending out a prayer. I fully believe they work, my husband is proof as he is doing very well today. In my opinion any prayers are good prayers and it shouldn't matter who or where they come from.

[Patrick_Bateman]

I think atheists are more likely to take exception to someone praying for them or including them in prayers rather than a person of a different faith.
Some secularists are staunch in their rejection of spirituality and religious doctrine. I know my girlfriend's father would pounce on someone if he knew they were praying for him.

[YesNo]

It's certainly something to think about. Are our wishes and hopes simply brain fodder? Can they be useful? Destructive?

There's a Chinese saying that I'm paraphrasing here. If you water a plant with positive energy, it will grow and thrive. If you water a plant with negative energy, it will grow and thrive. It's only if you don't water the plant at all that it will die and decay.

I certainly hope that our intentions don't have even a miniscule effect on the world. Because there are a lot of people who hope and wish for very terrible things. You can't have the good side without the bad.
Negative intentions worry me as well, BookBeauty. I hope if there is any power to intentionality that there is some natural control for the potentially destructive aspects of it. My eldest daughter liked the movie Push which seemed to express the negative side of such abilities, if they exist.

On the other hand, I agree with shangib74 that I would welcome any positive prayers from whomever.

Elizabeth Lloyd Mayer was a psychoanalysist who followed Freud's lead with the idea of the unconscious. One of the chapters in Extraordinary Knowing, which overall was mainly about "anomalous cognitive abilities", was an attempt to understand and describe as "fear" the unconscious defenses made by people Patrick_Bateman referred to.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I think atheists are more likely to take exception to someone praying for them or including them in prayers rather than a person of a different faith.
Why do you say that? Every atheist so far has said they have no problem with it.

If anyone would take exception to it, I think it'd be a fundamentalist of any religion, such as a Born-Again Christian taking umbrage against a Muslim for praying for them, or vice-versa.

[shangib74]

If someone is asking for prayer because a friend, loved one or them self is in need I wouldn't think they would have a problem with who ever is praying for them. With that said if people are just praying for someone on their own then I could see where someone may have an issue with it.

[JuniperWoolf]

Why do you say that? Every atheist so far has said they have no problem with it.

I don't know, but it's probably the same reason everyone thinks you're trying to cancel Christmas.

[YesNo]

If someone is asking for prayer because a friend, loved one or them self is in need I wouldn't think they would have a problem with who ever is praying for them. With that said if people are just praying for someone on their own then I could see where someone may have an issue with it.
One can't control whom someone prays for nor what the content of that prayer might be. This shouldn't be a problem for someone who doesn't think such prayers or thoughts have any power, but what if they do have power?

A physical contact with another person affects that person in a positive or negative way. A verbal contact, either spoken or written, can also have a positive or negative affect on another person. Normally we don't consider thoughts to affect someone else unless they get acted out in some way, but that is what is being challenged by the idea that prayer can actually help someone else.

If a "distant mental intention" has power then one person's thoughts can affect another person even when they are not acted out, even when the affected person doesn't know the person with the intention. The fact that it is "prayer" in this case I suspect may be irrelevant to the general process.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I don't know, but it's probably the same reason everyone thinks you're trying to cancel Christmas.

Shhhhhhhhhhhh . . . that's supposed to be a secret.

[KCurtis]

Shhhhhhhhhhhh . . . that's supposed to be a secret.

I didn't know you were trying to cancel Christmas! I love Christmas, it's not a religious holiday for many people, like myself. It's tradition.

[Varenne Rodin]

I didn't know you were trying to cancel Christmas! I love Christmas, it's not a religious holiday for many people, like myself. It's tradition.

Yeah, but we atheists love Satan, so....

[MarkBastable]

Yeah, but we atheists love Satan, so....

Well, I don't like to make a big deal of this round the pentagram of a midnight, but actually it's not the love of Satan that first attracted me to atheism - I mostly show up for virgin-blood-drinking bit. I've always been very much a social blood-drinker.

[PMLondonderry]

I had an old friend say that praying for other people is a form of psychic attack. She firmly believed that all followers of Abrahamic religions hated her and believed that we were all praying for her to convert to whatever particular religion we were following. Needless to say, she was a bit paranoid.


Well, I don't like to make a big deal of this round the pentagram of a midnight, but actually it's not the love of Satan that first attracted me to atheism - I mostly show up for virgin-blood-drinking bit. I've always been very much a social blood-drinker.

So Atheists and Wiccans hang out together? :p Do you all drink blood together and laugh about the crucifixion?

[MarkBastable]

So Atheists and Wiccans hang out together? :p Do you all drink blood together and laugh about the crucifixion?

Wiccans? I don't think Wiccans believe in Satan. They believe in trees.

[BookBeauty]

Wiccans? I don't think Wiccans believe in Satan. They believe in trees.

... Who doesn't believe in trees?

[MarkBastable]

... Who doesn't believe in trees?

Haddock.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

:lol:

[PMLondonderry]

Wiccans? I don't think Wiccans believe in Satan. They believe in trees.

:lol:

I meant to say that Wiccans are often unfortunately assumed to be worshippers of Satan and said to sacrifice things.

And they definitely do believe in trees! Veggie tales did an incredibly offensive skit on Pagans and trees. I will see if I can find it. I was laughing and shaking my fists at the same time.

[JuniperWoolf]

Veggie tales did an incredibly offensive skit on Pagans and trees. I will see if I can find it.

I saw a skit from that show for the first time on youtube when I was nineteen and I thought it was satire. I only realized that they were serious when I read the comments section.

[prendrelemick]

Haddock.



You should invent a font for that too.

[PMLondonderry]

I saw a skit from that show for the first time on youtube when I was nineteen and I thought it was satire. I only realized that they were serious when I read the comments section.

(Sorry everyone. I know I'm getting off topic)

This was the offensive Druid scene. I couldn't believe it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg5ejLGEnZk

[Paulclem]

Did you know that there are no snakes in Ireland, and that St Patrick is credited with driving them all out as a metaphor for driving out paganism?

[cafolini]

If someone prays for me to get well from an illness, that's one thing. But if someone prays for me to be a convert to his/her religion, then I don't like it because it could happen and it will be the only actual miracle ever produced before my eyes.

[BookBeauty]

I don't understand why people wouldn't want others to pray to be converted, mostly because you wouldn't really realize it for the most part.

But, I gotta say, if someone came up to me and told me, ''I've been praying that you'd become a (Insert Religion Here)'' I'd actually feel honoured. I mean, they took time out of their day to make a wish for me. If you look at it from their perspective-- Their faith obviously makes them very happy (Well, supposedly). They think about their afterlife, their omnipresent entity, and such, and their faith fills their life with joyness, they feel some kind of connection to something greater, and they wanna share that.

And they want all of that for you, too. It's a rather nice compliment, really. Most people of whatever faith wouldn't take time out of their day like that, in my opinion.

So I'd like to take the time in this little thread to thank those people I have no idea about who are praying for me to have (Insert Religion Here). :D

[shangib74]

One can't control whom someone prays for nor what the content of that prayer might be. This shouldn't be a problem for someone who doesn't think such prayers or thoughts have any power, but what if they do have power?

A physical contact with another person affects that person in a positive or negative way. A verbal contact, either spoken or written, can also have a positive or negative affect on another person. Normally we don't consider thoughts to affect someone else unless they get acted out in some way, but that is what is being challenged by the idea that prayer can actually help someone else.

If a "distant mental intention" has power then one person's thoughts can affect another person even when they are not acted out, even when the affected person doesn't know the person with the intention. The fact that it is "prayer" in this case I suspect may be irrelevant to the general process.
I re read what I wrote after reading your response and you have a point. I guess what I ment to say is that if someone comes up to them and says I am praying for you then I think the person that may not want it has the right to say please don't.

[YesNo]

I re read what I wrote after reading your response and you have a point. I guess what I ment to say is that if someone comes up to them and says I am praying for you then I think the person that may not want it has the right to say please don't.
I agree that that people receiving prayers have a right to say they don't want them. That doesn't necessarily stop the prayers from coming to them.

I wonder if there is any law, past or present, that prohibits someone of a different faith from praying for a person who doesn't want the prayers? How would it be enforced?

[PMLondonderry]

Did you know that there are no snakes in Ireland, and that St Patrick is credited with driving them all out as a metaphor for driving out paganism?

Yep. I did know this.

[PMLondonderry]

I don't understand why people wouldn't want others to pray to be converted, mostly because you wouldn't really realize it for the most part.

But, I gotta say, if someone came up to me and told me, ''I've been praying that you'd become a (Insert Religion Here)'' I'd actually feel honoured. I mean, they took time out of their day to make a wish for me. If you look at it from their perspective-- Their faith obviously makes them very happy (Well, supposedly). They think about their afterlife, their omnipresent entity, and such, and their faith fills their life with joyness, they feel some kind of connection to something greater, and they wanna share that.

And they want all of that for you, too. It's a rather nice compliment, really. Most people of whatever faith wouldn't take time out of their day like that, in my opinion.

So I'd like to take the time in this little thread to thank those people I have no idea about who are praying for me to have (Insert Religion Here). :D

Not to mention...if they pray that you are converted to their religion and you are, then they were right all along and they just saved your ***. :p

[PMLondonderry]

I wonder if there is any law, past or present, that prohibits someone of a different faith from praying for a person who doesn't want the prayers? How would it be enforced?

That would be a stupid law and impossible to enforce since police can't monitor what I pray for in my bed at night.

And technically, this law has already been attempted. Alabama, among many other states, tried to push a bill that makes following Sharia Law in their states, or using it in a courtroom, illegal. A Muslim praying the 5 Salah is Sharia Law. Therefore, me performing my 5 daily prayers could get me arrested. Especially if I did them in public. I do them in public every single day. When I am at school, I choose an empty classroom to use. If I am outside, I do it right there in the grass. All of that could get me arrested if those laws were implemented.

Of course, that also means me giving 2.5% of my annual income to charity would also be illegal. Contrary to popular belief, not everything that comes out of Sharia is scary. A woman's right to an education, divorce, and control over her own property is Sharia law too. Some laws are pretty extreme, but people forget that this law code is 1400 years old. Laws that applied 1400 years ago might not apply today. Like our holy book, they should be interpreted to fit the world today. Not every Muslim believes Islam should be stuck in the stone age like it is in Saudi Arabia.

Sharia is a funny thing in the United States. Nothing makes Americans sweat more than the mere mention of Sharia Law. The thing that people don't realize is that Sharia Law is a law code for Muslim people only. Under Sharia law, it is illegal to force a non-Muslim to follow Sharia in the privacy of their own homes and in their religious practices. Also, the Islamic diaspora is not subjected to Sharia either. I, as a Muslim living in America, am Islamically commanded to follow the American legal code because that is the law of the land where I live. Joke is on the people who think otherwise. They are either religious totalitarians who skew the religion and use it for their own interests, OR they are Islamophobes who never studied Sharia in their life.