Daniel Deronda discussion.

[Nightshade]

Ive been reading this for over a week now , while Ive had a chance ( slow reading for me ) but I have a few thoughts I wanted to share as I go along.
( oh and this is another ccount for the litnet challenge!!)
1) Gewdoline in MAlory Towers resembles this Gwendoline very much in charcheter and looks - Did enid blyton base her on Eliots charcater?
2) The anti sematisim is quite stong from the beging ( I know that is a poin sopmewhere bu its kind of shcocing in away)-- somewhat remindis me of certain attitudes found in Ivanhoe.
3) What is it with vicorians and dogs? They demostrate how heartless aperson is with how they realte to dogs. Grandcourt in this case
and whats his facce in Oliver Twist. for two examoles. There were other exmples I ave come across.

Anyway anyone who wants to discuss this here is a place. :D

[wessexgirl]

Ooh Nightie, I've just watched DD again, last night, and was thinking I should read it. I didn't think it was anti-semitic. In fact, being Eliot, I was pretty certain it wasn't, but that was watching the tv adaptation. I do want to read the book, and have just been browsing Amazon for a copy. I thought the tv version was done very sympathetically,

SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!

after all, aren't we rooting for Daniel and Mira(?) throughout? I was so glad he didn't end up with G. We have to remember the time it was written in and the context of the society at the time. The references to his upbringing and the fact his mother abandoned him for a "better" life as an English gentleman, have to be seen within that Victorian society. He would have faced prejudice. That's not to say it was right, but that it happened. Surely Eliot's sympathetic portayal of DD is showing her lack of prejudice. Of course, until I read the book, I can't be sure, there may be some clunky and outdated language which may sound wrong nowadays, but I can't believe Eliot would have been deliberately anti-semitic.

[Janine]

Ooh Nightie, I've just watched DD again, last night, and was thinking I should read it. I didn't think it was anti-semitic. In fact, being Eliot, I was pretty certain it wasn't, but that was watching the tv adaptation. I do want to read the book, and have just been browsing Amazon for a copy. I thought the tv version was done very sympathetically,

SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!

after all, aren't we rooting for Daniel and Mira(?) throughout? I was so glad he didn't end up with G. We have to remember the time it was written in and the context of the society at the time. The references to his upbringing and the fact his mother abandoned him for a "better" life as an English gentleman, have to be seen within that Victorian society. He would have faced prejudice. That's not to say it was right, but that it happened. Surely Eliot's sympathetic portayal of DD is showing her lack of prejudice. Of course, until I read the book, I can't be sure, there may be some clunky and outdated language which may sound wrong nowadays, but I can't believe Eliot would have been deliberately anti-semitic.

Nighty and Wessexg, I have only see the adaptation, several times now. I happen to own it and like it very much. I was rooting for Daniel and Mira all along. Mira was wonderful. I think the adaptation was very well done but I have never read the novel. Is it long? I tried to read Eliot's Mill on the Floss and gave up; I found it tetious and slow going. It may just have been that particular book and my mood at the time. I need to give all the Eliot books a go. I love Middlemarch, the film adaptation. I own that one, too and have watched it several times now. It's great!

[wessexgirl]

Nighty and Wessexg, I have only see the adaptation, several times now. I happen to own it and like it very much. I was rooting for Daniel and Mira all along. Mira was wonderful. I think the adaptation was very well done but I have never read the novel. Is it long? I tried to read Eliot's Mill on the Floss and gave up; I found it tetious and slow going. It may just have been that particular book and my mood at the time. I need to give all the Eliot books a go. I love Middlemarch, the film adaptation. I own that one, too and have watched it several times now. It's great!

Hi Janine. How are you? I think the novel is long, but considered worth it, as with Middlemarch. I wasn't keen on TMOTF myself, or Adam Bede, but they may be worth another go. Middlemarch is sublime, but I think the others we've mentioned are sort of second league. Well, they were to me! :) I keep wanting to read more Eliot, I must do it, but there's never enough time. Did you ever see Silas Marner, with Ben Kingsley, (I think, it was so long ago that I watched it?) I think I should watch Middlemarch again, it was so brilliant. However, I will try DD, I have the book in my basket as we speak, but I have to check my books first, as I have so many, that I think I may already have bought it. I have duplicated before now :blush:, senility creeping up on me I'm afraid!

[Nightshade]

Wait wessex girl how did you get hold of an adaptation that ios playbale in the uk? I rang up the BBc and gave out to them over a year ago because it wasnt available in region 2/PAL format or rather in the UK becauase of copyrtight issues. They never relased it on dvd here.
Then last week I found out they realsed it in the netherlands in english with dutch subtitles so I boought that. Is that how you got it?
Am waiting to finish the book be fore I watch it though :D
Am not reasing spoiler alerts, but it is good. And the anti semitism is more a theme of the book ( I read part of the introduction) she is trying to demonstarte it I think. Its more there is much more emphesis on the fact people are jewish than there are in other books Ive read of the time, or by Elliot for that matter.

[wessexgirl]

Hi Nightie. My version of DD is on old-fashioned video. I taped it from the tv, and it was repeated again on a digital channel, last year I think. I have hundreds of videos of classics from doing that. I have bought some on dvd now, but I hadn't tried with DD. I didn't realise it was hard to get. I'm glad I kept it :D!

I will start to read it and contribute to the discussion. I've just checked my catalogue here at work, and we have a couple of copies, so I don't have to wait for my own copy. That's the beauty of being a librarian, isn't it? :)

[Nightshade]

I will start to read it and contribute to the discussion. I've just checked my catalogue here at work, and we have a couple of copies, so I don't have to wait for my own copy. That's the beauty of being a librarian, isn't it? :)

It is! :nod:

[Nightshade]

Hopefully this isnt too late but the tvdrama penguin 2002 tie in edtion has faults, some of chapet 20 is misson page 225 is blank and the stuff on what must be page 226 ( is unnumbered) doesnt tie in with the end of page 224!
Don't go for this edtion!!!

[wessexgirl]

Hopefully this isnt too late but the tvdrama penguin 2002 tie in edtion has faults, some of chapet 20 is misson page 225 is blank and the stuff on what must be page 226 ( is unnumbered) doesnt tie in with the end of page 224!
Don't go for this edtion!!!

I've only just read your post Night, but I've been reading the Everyman edition at work, so I'm ok. Luckily I haven't ordered yet, (it's sitting in my basket) as there's a severe lack of funds, and I can use works copy until I'm more flush. I tend to go for The Oxford World Classics series though, I love those. They've revamped the covers, and they're lovely. I prefer them to Penguiin. Waterstones are doing buy one get one free on OWC at the moment, which is so tempting. I have a few on the way already, (hence why I've got to wait for DD). However, they're cheaper at Amazon anyway, but I couldn't resist.

[Nightshade]

Oh no why did you tell me about the waterstones offer! I manged to survev 4 months of the blackwells offer by crossing to the otherside of the rooad everytime I went past *sigh* But currently I am really into the Vintage edtions, lovly font and less messed with than the othe versions I find.

On DD... the slowness is beging to get to me, not that I dont like the introspective bits but honestly you dont meet the Mirah until book 3 or so and even then its the last chapter of the book no wiat it mmust be 2 and then she is only in one chapter of book 3 and then we are off n other things...

[wessexgirl]

We must have the same tastes Night, I collect Vintage as well. Those and OWC are my favs. I don't know how long the Waterstones offer is on for, but I sort of weighed up the cost at Amazon, and the cost at Waterstones, and went for the more expensive ones at W, to get the freebie, (if that makes sense?) :lol:

I have only managed the first chapter so far of DD, (reading at my desk, when I can grab a break), but I like Eliot's depiction of G. We know where we stand from the off with the title heading don't we? (The Spoiled Child?). As I had only seen the adaptation, I remember thinking that I wasn't very keen on the character, I assumed she was going to be the "heroine" so to speak, and I suppose in a way she is, but the actress did a good job. As we follow her through the book, I suppose we get to sympathise with her more, but that introduction to her is very good. I think there were serpentine or snake-like references to her(?), which could make her seem like the temptress, but I like it so far. However, that's only the first chapter, so I can imagine it could get heavy-going!

[Nightshade]

It does get at times, but you have to enjoy eliots way of writing I think. As in t6ake the time to enjoy it.
I have to admiot Ive been away from the Classics and 19th centurey stuff a good long while, n, but isnt eliots openess about DD possibly being an illigimate child ( and she get more into illigimate choildren and even siding with them as it goes on ) a bit atypical of the time?

And I suspect you too have read Malory towers, if you think back do you too see the parallels between this Gwen and that one?

[wessexgirl]

I've never read Mallory Towers Night, so I can't comment on any parallels between the characters. In fact, I was never a Blyton fan, (it is Blyton isn't it?)

I don't know how atypical Eliot's concerns about illegitimacy were. She was obviously sympathetic to Hetty Sorrel's plight in Adam Bede, and apart from DD himself, there are the Grandcourt offspring too, who G ruins with her marriage, (I'm just trying to remember the adaptation, as I obviously haven't got that far yet). I'm sure there are other 19th century writers who mentioned it. I think Gaskell, in Ruth, is sympathetic too, but I haven't read it yet, (another on Mount TBR :rolleyes:) and there is Adele in Jane Eyre. The children in these books are quite openly acknowledged as illegitimate, so I don't think it was overtly hidden from the public, but perhaps the fact that the ones I've mentioned are women writers may be pertinent to their sympathetic outlook.

[Nightshade]

ahh yes.... Im thinking later victorian I guess.

[Nightshade]

So I FINALLY finished it, since the book has been on loan to me since christmas I am very much pleased with todays work.
I read the last 450 odd pages today, and I have to say for a good part of it I was shouting at the charcters, and in the scene between Danial and the princess, I got all emotional and kept thinking ( well ok saying out load - which is part of the reason I only read crap on in public I am less inclided to talk to the charcters out loiund) Oh you poor poor thing.
I think though it was more a story abouit Gwendoline than anything else. It should have been claled Gwendoline, or Making choices, IMO.

SPOILER
It wasnt till I started watch the tv series that I noticed how it came full circle the issue of being an @english@ gentleman. In the beigning when danial drops out of cambridge to go off to learn about differnt people and places, Sir Hugo asks if he doesnt want to be an English Gentleman to the backbone. And his mother gave hime up so tha he could be english withouyt any trace of jew. But danial is effectivly turning his back on the English Gentlman as represnted by Gradcourt and embracing the Jew as represnted by Modecai and the Cohens ( who pretty significamntluyy are mentioned in the wedding party whener the MAllingers aren't-- did they just send gifts and really how hurtful was THAT!)

[victorianfan]

I read "Daniel Deronda" few months ago after I watched BBC mini-serie. The most compelling character, for me, was Mr. Grandcourt, Gwendolen's cold, manipulative and cruel husband. In the movie, he was greatly potraited by actor Hugh Bonneville (I was surprised by his interpration of such a character because I used to see him playing roles of silly, good-natured men). Although, I don't know if I'd be so impressed if I had read the novel first. Hm.

Personally, I would finish the novel quite differently: Gwendolen would marry Daniel, the Saint and after a period of recovery from her unhappy marriage (unhappy because she couldn't dominate), she would miraculously start acting as her first husband did. After all, they were similar in character. At least from my point of view. In previous marriage Gwendolen just learned a few more tricks to torture someone.

[FranzS]

Personally, I would finish the novel quite differently: Gwendolen would marry Daniel, the Saint and after a period of recovery from her unhappy marriage (unhappy because she couldn't dominate), she would miraculously start acting as her first husband did. After all, they were similar in character. At least from my point of view. In previous marriage Gwendolen just learned a few more tricks to torture someone.

Hmm... with respect, I think you've missed the point. There is a seed of goodness in Gwendolyn that, to begin with, is buried under an inheritance of privilege and complacency. Grandcourt's cruelty towards her teaches her that being adored for one's beauty is not enough: one needs to give and receive love to be happy.

Suffering makes Gwendolyn less selfish. I think she is a great character and her story rings absolutely true to me. (Deronda, and most of the Jewish characters, I found two-dimensional: one feels that Eliot is trying to write about a culture she knows too little of from the inside. As for the original poster, who suggested the book is anti-semitic: I don't know how one could take this away from the novel. Yes, anti-Jewish prejudice is portrayed, but that is how the world was in the 19th Century. Eliot was actually trying to redress the balance by creating sympathetic Jewish characters: as it happens, I don't think she succeeded, and she comes across as fawning over Jewish culture rather than really engaging with it.)

Your alternative ending would destroy the point of the novel, which is that Gwendolyn grows as a person. Your grim twist might be appropriate in a thriller, but not in a work of psychological realism.

[kev67]

Ive been reading this for over a week now , while Ive had a chance ( slow reading for me ) but I have a few thoughts I wanted to share as I go along.
( oh and this is another ccount for the litnet challenge!!)
1) Gewdoline in MAlory Towers resembles this Gwendoline very much in charcheter and looks - Did enid blyton base her on Eliots charcater?
2) The anti sematisim is quite stong from the beging ( I know that is a poin sopmewhere bu its kind of shcocing in away)-- somewhat remindis me of certain attitudes found in Ivanhoe.
3) What is it with vicorians and dogs? They demostrate how heartless aperson is with how they realte to dogs. Grandcourt in this case
and whats his facce in Oliver Twist. for two examoles. There were other exmples I ave come across.

Anyway anyone who wants to discuss this here is a place. :D

Ivanhoe is mentioned several times. I watched part of the film of Ivanhoe on television a long time ago, but I iirc it has a beautiful Jewess called Rebecca who Ivanhoe falls in love with, or at least defends. Mirah is a beautiful Jewess, so the comparison would be obvious to GE's readers.

George Elliot is the only author I have read (the only C19th author anyway) who occasionally writes a sentence or two from a dog's perspective. She did so in Middlemarch and Silas Marner.