Psychoanalysis

[Mr Endon]

So,

1) Do you think that psychoanalysis in general is
a) a very sensible account of what goes on in our heads
b) no gospel, but very interesting and thought-provoking
c) flawed, but worth a thought
d) absolute rubbish

2) From point 1) follows, do you believe in the ego/id/superego distinctions? Archetypes? Childhood sexuality? The idea that 'we are all relatively crazy' (Jung)? The idea that we are all born homosexual (I've been told that this is Freud, but have never come across it myself)?

3) From point 2) follows, do you prefer one school of thought over the others? (e.g. Freudian, Jungian, Kleinian)

4) Have you undergone analysis yourself, or know someone who has? How was the experience?


[could some mod turn this into a pool for me please? I'm terrible at doing things]

[and sorry I haven't participated much in the discussions that I've created, but my internet time has been, for reasons beyond my control, limited to 30mins a day!]

[Emil Miller]

[QUOTE=Mr Endon;746146]

4) Have you undergone analysis yourself, or know someone who has? /QUOTE]

No but I think there are one or two forum members who might benefit from it.

[Virgil]

Psychoanalysis is a joke. Jung, Freud? Please. Get with real psychology.

[JBI]

It works, but not for the reasons they say, quite simply because a lot of "illnesses" that it cures are sociologically imagined, and easily remedied by the patient thinking they are getting better.

As for any real science or anything - a talking cure works, but isn't by any means the only way to recover anything, and doubtedly the best - I had a professor, for instance, who compared different approaches to trauma testimony, and discovered that the emphasis on the talking cure for treatment ultimately had detrimental effects, culturally, on some Aboriginal Canadians trying to come to terms with sexual abuse carried out by clergymen in Residential schools.

Generally, some people think they need help, so they essentially pay someone to listen to their problems, others are perhaps more self reliant, or socially trained not to do such a thing, but as for the actual "science" behind it, well, there really isn't any. It is, in a sense, a load of crap, but as long as you believe it can work, perhaps it can (assuming you can afford it).

[Virgil]

I agree that talking can help JBI. But that's not what psychoanalysis purports. Heck just the human contact of people talking about the weather can help people. But trying to find some childhood root cause through word association is assinine.

[JBI]

I agree that talking can help JBI. But that's not what psychoanalysis purports. Heck just the human contact of people talking about the weather can help people. But trying to find some childhood root cause through word association is assinine.

Well, in a sense, but Freud's original observation (before he came up with the Elektra Complex, due to huge cultural backlash) ultimately found that cases of hysteria, which, in the 19th century were rampant, were attributable, in almost all cases, to sexual abuse, usually at a young age. Such a claim shocked society in a sense, as hysteria was epidemic, but would make sense, given the societal norms of late 19th century Europe. Ultimately however, the need to "dig the subconscious" (and not face the sick truth of society) preoccupied him to determining instead it was actually a subconscious penis envy, amongst other things.

I think the novel Alias Grace does a good job and making fun of Freud, rather cruelly. Atwood certainly has more savage, and Whittier words than me, so I'll leave it there for whomever is interested.

[Virgil]

Well, in a sense, but Freud's original observation (before he came up with the Elektra Complex, due to huge cultural backlash) ultimately found that cases of hysteria, which, in the 19th century were rampant, were attributable, in almost all cases, to sexual abuse, usually at a young age. Such a claim shocked society in a sense, as hysteria was epidemic, but would make sense, given the societal norms of late 19th century Europe. Ultimately however, the need to "dig the subconscious" (and not face the sick truth of society) preoccupied him to determining instead it was actually a subconscious penis envy, amongst other things.

I think the novel Alias Grace does a good job and making fun of Freud, rather cruelly. Atwood certainly has more savage, and Whittier words than me, so I'll leave it there for whomever is interested.

They make fun of Freud because Freud is a joke. Mental illness is a disease in the brain, which granted can be caused by trauma. It is not anything due to subconcious factors whatever amorphous notion that may be.

[Tsuyoiko]

I think Freud has been pretty much discredited, as this article suggests:

http://cgi.stanford.edu/group/wais/cgi-bin/?p=1496

I agree with Virgil that mental illness is a disease of the brain, and so should be treated in an analogous way to other physical illnesses, using drugs, lifestyle changes etc.

Psychoanalysis shouldn't be confused with psychotherapy or counselling, which do work to some extent in some cases. I suffer from anxiety and panic disorder, and counselling helped me a lot. Although the conditions haven't disappeared, and never will, the psychiatrist I saw explained the physiological reasons for my panic response, helped me determine the most common triggers and showed me techniques and lifestyle changes that could help me avert an attack.

[Emil Miller]

I think Freud has been pretty much discredited, as this article suggests:

http://cgi.stanford.edu/group/wais/cgi-bin/?p=1496

I agree with Virgil that mental illness is a disease of the brain, and so should be treated in an analogous way to other physical illnesses, using drugs, lifestyle changes etc.

Psychoanalysis shouldn't be confused with psychotherapy or counselling, which do work to some extent in some cases. I suffer from anxiety and panic disorder, and counselling helped me a lot. Although the conditions haven't disappeared, and never will, the psychiatrist I saw explained the physiological reasons for my panic response, helped me determine the most common triggers and showed me techniques and lifestyle changes that could help me avert an attack.

I think there are many people who suffer from anxiety but at what point does panic set in?

[virginiawang]

I believe everyone has a brain that is unique. One brain differs from another in the way it functions, resulting in diverse ideas and emotions, some of which may have been considered as a sort of disease by psychiatrists, but more often than not, cannot be remedied by their medication. I tend to consider this uniqueness as a quality possessed by every individual since their birth. No one can imitate with his brain the way another brain works, and that's what makes each person a distinct individual, so it does not make sense to alter the way one brain works to ways other brains may work. It is even more ridiculous to claim that a brain is ill because it does not work like most brains. Psychiatry made attempts to kill the uniquness of some brains over the last few centuries, and it did have pernicious effects on humanity until now. As far as psychoanalysis is concerned, I admit I don't have too much knowledge in this field, but I do believe there is some connection between an analysis and the reality of a mental self.

[Virgil]

I think Freud has been pretty much discredited, as this article suggests:

http://cgi.stanford.edu/group/wais/cgi-bin/?p=1496

I agree with Virgil that mental illness is a disease of the brain, and so should be treated in an analogous way to other physical illnesses, using drugs, lifestyle changes etc.

Psychoanalysis shouldn't be confused with psychotherapy or counselling, which do work to some extent in some cases. I suffer from anxiety and panic disorder, and counselling helped me a lot. Although the conditions haven't disappeared, and never will, the psychiatrist I saw explained the physiological reasons for my panic response, helped me determine the most common triggers and showed me techniques and lifestyle changes that could help me avert an attack.

Thank you so much for that. I have had the hardest time trying to explain this to literature students. Seems like in literature curriculum they treat Freud and Jung as some credible scientists/doctors.

[virginiawang]

Psychoanalysis is a joke. Jung, Freud? Please. Get with real psychology.
At least it is much less a joke than real psychology and psychiatry, which, thought by most people to have the power of altering human minds, can only damage them in a limited scope.

But trying to find some childhood root cause through word association is assinine.
People do find some connection between an analysis of childhood or whatever and the real mental self. At least a root from one's childhood is better than nothing. Do you think a counsellor can help in a situation where he knows nothing of? Do you think the knowledge he has about psychology is going to sum up everything that takes place in human brains?


Mental illness is a disease in the brain, which granted can be caused by trauma. It is not anything due to subconcious factors whatever amorphous notion that may be. Psychiatric medication makes people idiots because it dulls human senses. You have to agree in that part of ourselves which nobody can see through.


Thank you so much for that. I have had the hardest time trying to explain this to literature students. Seems like in literature curriculum they treat Freud and Jung as some credible scientists/doctors.

I majored in Literature in college, and I swear I had learned nothing about Freud or any school of Psychoanalysis from my college teachers. What made you think you had the best knowledge about a human brain, especially in situations where it functioned in an unexpected manner? I won't call it a mental disease, because it is not logical to consider it a disease when it shows nothing more than its unique qualities.

[Tsuyoiko]

I think there are many people who suffer from anxiety but at what point does panic set in?

There are two different ways it happens to me.

1) If I've been feeling anxious for a long time and nothing has happened to alleviate the anxiety, it can escalate to panic. For example, if I send my friend a message and he doesn't reply at his usual time, the anxiety will get more and more intense until it tips over into panic (sweating, dizziness, confusion, weakness in limbs etc). This is the kind of panic I can avoid by reasoning. I go through all the reasons in my mind why his message might be late. This helps in two ways: by helping me realise the unlikelihood that anything's wrong and also by giving me something to concentrate on to take my mind off the anxiety.

2) When something happens outside my usual routine or expectations and I don't have time to think about how to deal with it. An example would be if I turn up to work at 8:55 and my boss tells me I have to be in a meeting at 9:00. It's much harder for me to avoid this trigger, as the method that works for me takes time.


I believe everyone has a brain that is unique. One brain differs from another in the way it functions, resulting in diverse ideas and emotions, some of which may have been considered as a sort of disease by psychiatrists, but more often than not, cannot be remedied by their medication.

Could you provide some evidence from a reliable source (such as a medical or scientific journal) to back up your claim that psychiatric medicine fails more often than not?


At least it is much less a joke than real psychology and psychiatry, which, thought by most people to have the power of altering human minds, can only damage them in a limited scope.

Just simply untrue. There is a proven scientific case for psychiatry and psychology based on decades of detailed experimentation, case studies and neuroscience. True, it doesn't help everyone, but then medical treatments are very rarely 100% successful.


People do find some connection between an analysis of childhood or whatever and the real mental self. At least a root from one's childhood is better than nothing.

Just because it helps some people doesn't make it legitimate. Placebos sometimes work too. The fact that psychoanalysis is founded on fraud should be of great concern.


Do you think a counsellor can help in a situation where he knows nothing of?

Do you think an oncologist can help a cancer patient if he's never had cancer himself? You don't have to experience an illness to know how to treat it.


Psychiatric medication makes people idiots because it dulls human senses. You have to agree in that part of ourselves which nobody can see through.

I agree that sometimes psychiatric medicine can have that effect, and that's why I stopped taking it myself. But when someone's everyday functions are impaired to the extent that they have little or no quality of life, dull senses is a small price to pay.


What made you think you had the best knowledge about a human brain, especially in situations where it functioned in an unexpected manner? I won't call it a mental disease, because it is not logical to consider it a disease when it shows nothing more than its unique qualities.

If someone's mental state interferes with their ability to live a normal life then they are mentally ill. They have a disease. True, there have been many great thinkers who have suffered from mental illness, and one wonders if treatment would have dulled their genius. But if treatment can give someone the ability to live an independent and fulfilled life, I can see no argument against it.

If you will permit a personal question, are you a Scientologist?

[Virgil]

I majored in Literature in college, and I swear I had learned nothing about Freud or any school of Psychoanalysis from my college teachers. What made you think you had the best knowledge about a human brain, especially in situations where it functioned in an unexpected manner? I won't call it a mental disease, because it is not logical to consider it a disease when it shows nothing more than its unique qualities.

I'm not even going to respond to your points. Feel free to believe in whatever you like. Every age has it's myths and legends. The 20th century produced several. One of the biggest is that psychoanalysis is a meaningful medical process. Psychiatry pretty much dismissed psychoanalysis by the 1960's if not even earlier. I have no desire to debate medicine, especially when one is comparing medicine to witchcraft.

[virginiawang]

Could you provide some evidence from a reliable source (such as a medical or scientific journal) to back up your claim that psychiatric medicine fails more often than not? People enganged in Psychiatry will never say they've been doing something futile because they would have lost their job if they had made such assertions.


Just simply untrue. There is a proven scientific case for psychiatry and psychology based on decades of detailed experimentation, case studies and neuroscience. True, it doesn't help everyone, but then medical treatments are very rarely 100% successful.
Yes, it does help people who do not want to live their lives as unique individuals by dulling their senses, slowering their reactions, depriving their balances, or lessening their intuitions. This sort of medication does not have a parellel with physical medications, which cure rather than destroy. People who have been diagnosed with metal illnesses have their unique qualities which deserve to be left intact, undestroyed.


Just because it helps some people doesn't make it legitimate. Placebos sometimes work too. The fact that psychoanalysis is founded on fraud should be of great concern.
I don't know whether it did help people or not in the past decades. I only said there is some curious connection between the report of some of those analyses and the truth about one's inner self.


Do you think an oncologist can help a cancer patient if he's never had cancer himself? You don't have to experience an illness to know how to treat it.
An oncologist offers material help rather than spiritual help, which is offered by consellers. He removes cancer cells by various treatments, which are based on objective methods all people on earth agree in, because cancer cells are supposed to be destroyed. However people are not supposed to devalue themselves, even if their brains function in some ways that are different from the way known by most people. To calm and disfunction any part of their senses is not what I would appreciate,and simply because of this, I don't think it appropriate to compare psychiatric or psychologic medications with pure physiological medications.



I agree that sometimes psychiatric medicine can have that effect, and that's why I stopped taking it myself. But when someone's everyday functions are impaired to the extent that they have little or no quality of life, dull senses is a small price to pay.
If anyone no longer wishes to cherish his unique qualities, which many ordinary people lack since their birth, he can choose to destroy it in order to live like most people. I would rather choose to have upheavals in life than to have dull senses and degraded dignity, even if I were to die at a young age, if I had some mental illness.




If someone's mental state interferes with their ability to live a normal life then they are mentally ill. They have a disease. True, there have been many great thinkers who have suffered from mental illness, and one wonders if treatment would have dulled their genius. But if treatment can give someone the ability to live an independent and fulfilled life, I can see no argument against it. First of all, I doubt if such treatment will really offer people ways to live an independent and fulfilled life, and in fact I am ready to say NO. People under such treatments cannot think, analyze, feel, or even walk as they could before the treatments. I wonder how they are going to fulfill themselves when they are almost half killed. Secondly, I do not think normal is a good word here because people under such treatments do not have a chance to live like those who have not been diagnosed with mental illnesses. One can never be transmuted to someone else, but he can choose to distroy his precious qualities as well as those irritating ones and lead a long and dull life. By the way, human beings are not machines in that each has its uniqueness, and we should not consider anyone different from most people as abnormal.


If you will permit a personal question, are you a Scientologist?
I don't even know the word, Scientologist.

[The Atheist]

So,

1) Do you think that psychoanalysis in general is

d) absolute rubbish

I vote D.

Virgil nails it:


Psychoanalysis is a joke. Jung, Freud? Please. Get with real psychology.

Behaviourists agree with you as well.

[1n50mn14]

I vote D.

Virgil nails it:



Behaviourists agree with you as well.

Agreed.

[virginiawang]

I have no desire to debate medicine, especially when one is comparing medicine to witchcraft.
I only denounced Psychiatry. I didn't even mention the word witchcraft. Your imagination worked too hard.

[Tsuyoiko]

People enganged in Psychiatry will never say they've been doing something futile because they would have lost their job if they had made such assertions.

I anticipated this ad hominen objection, which is why I asked you to provide evidence from medical or scientific journals, rather than from Psychiatry journals ;)

Can you provide any evidence of the ineffectiveness of psychiatry from people who are not engaged in psychiatry?


Yes, it does help people who do not want to live their lives as unique individuals by dulling their senses, slowering their reactions, depriving their balances, or lessening their intuitions. This sort of medication does not have a parellel with physical medications, which cure rather than destroy.

Physiological medications (of which psychiatric medication is a subset) both cure and destroy. Most medicines have side effects. The levodopa my dad takes for his Parkinsons alleviates shaking and stiffness, but causes nausea and disturbed sleep. The side effects are annoying, but since he feels better on balance, he's willing to put up with them. Likewise with mental illness. If someone is so depressed that they are sleeping 18 hours a day and burst into tears every time someone speaks to them, then they'll be willing to take Prozac if it enables them to hold down a job, even if they experience nausea and anxiety.


People who have been diagnosed with metal illnesses have their unique qualities which deserve to be left intact, undestroyed.

Treating mental illness is not about destroying unique qualities, any more than treating diabetes or cancer is about destroying unique qualities. It's about managing symptoms to give a person quality of life.


An oncologist offers material help rather than spiritual help, which is offered by consellers.

Counsellors don't offer spiritual help, they offer practical help to enable people to manage their symptoms. Although many counsellors do take a humanistic approach, it is not ad hoc. They are trained professionals who are granted permission to practise only if they meet certain requirements. They are either educated to PhD standard or they are trained nurses who specialise in Psychiatry.


He removes cancer cells by various treatments, which are based on objective methods all people on earth agree in, because cancer cells are supposed to be destroyed.

Actually, cancer treatments don't just destroy cancer, they destroy healthy cells too. But people are willing to take the treatments because they realise that the benefits will outweigh the costs, even though cancer treatments make people feel like crap.


First of all, I doubt if such treatment will really offer people ways to live an independent and fulfilled life, and in fact I am ready to say NO. People under such treatments cannot think, analyze, feel, or even walk as they could before the treatments. I wonder how they are going to fulfill themselves when they are almost half killed.

Which particular treatments are you talking about, and for which conditions? I'm struggling to think of a mental illness where the usual treatment would have such drastic side effects as impairing the ability to walk.


Secondly, I do not think normal is a good word here because people under such treatments do not have a chance to live like those who have not been diagnosed with mental illnesses. One can never be transmuted to someone else, but he can choose to distroy his precious qualities as well as those irritating ones and lead a long and dull life. By the way, human beings are not machines in that each has its uniqueness, and we should not consider anyone different from most people as abnormal

Sounds like you are advocating "live fast, die young". In most cases, psychiatric medicine is not about prolonging life, but about improving quality of life. I think you could benefit from reading about some common mental illnesses, such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or anorexia. Delusions, hallucinations and weighing five stone are not "precious qualities", they are symptoms of serious illness, and should be treated as such.

[Scheherazade]

W a r n i n g

Personal comments will be deleted without further notice and will lead to thread closure.

[virginiawang]

I anticipated this ad hominen objection, which is why I asked you to provide evidence from medical or scientific journals, rather than from Psychiatry journals ;)

Can you provide any evidence of the ineffectiveness of psychiatry from people who are not engaged in psychiatry?
People who are not engaged in Psychiatry will never have the right to make assertions, and nobody will believe them because they are not experts in this field, if they try to make one.



Physiological medications (of which psychiatric medication is a subset) both cure and destroy. Most medicines have side effects. The levodopa my dad takes for his Parkinsons alleviates shaking and stiffness, but causes nausea and disturbed sleep. The side effects are annoying, but since he feels better on balance, he's willing to put up with them. Likewise with mental illness. If someone is so depressed that they are sleeping 18 hours a day and burst into tears every time someone speaks to them, then they'll be willing to take Prozac if it enables them to hold down a job, even if they experience nausea and anxiety.
People can make their own choices. I have no wish to debate with you, though I used to be a dexterous debater at school. However I feel like revealing to you some of my true opinions about this topic, which concerns many people.
By the way, have you ever been skeptical about the claims made by those psychiatrists, either in medical journals or on newspapers, that they attributed many mental illnesses to the lack of some certain chemical in their patients' brains, and that they had discovered new ways to add this chemical into those brains to lead the patients to the right path? Have you ever seen a patient who acted like one who never had metal illnesses, after his/her treatments? If the true cause of the difference between healthy people and people mentally disturbed is only the lack of some chimical in the brain, and nothing else, we should find all mentally disturbed people being transformed to those healthy ones exactly. Obviously we failed to see even one example from around the world from past to the present.




Treating mental illness is not about destroying unique qualities, any more than treating diabetes or cancer is about destroying unique qualities. It's about managing symptoms to give a person quality of life.
As I said above, I don't think psychiatrists based their understandings on some solid grounds. If what they proclaimed to the public had been true, those patients, who have had those particular chemicals added to their brains, should have been able to function like those people not mentally disturbed. The fact that they cannot act like those people proves that some difficult facts have escaped the psychiatric understanding of a human mind.



Counsellors don't offer spiritual help, they offer practical help to enable people to manage their symptoms. Although many counsellors do take a humanistic approach, it is not ad hoc. They are trained professionals who are granted permission to practise only if they meet certain requirements. They are either educated to PhD standard or they are trained nurses who specialise in Psychiatry.
I do not disagree with counselling because it does not hurt people. When one is truly convinced that another one can help you by his/her knowledge or whatever, he/ she does help to some extent.




Actually, cancer treatments don't just destroy cancer, they destroy healthy cells too. But people are willing to take the treatments because they realise that the benefits will outweigh the costs, even though cancer treatments make people feel like crap.
When one's mental agony reaches the apex where he encounters imminent death like those cancer patients do, he may consider seeking help from a psychiatrist. However as I told you in my last post, I would never sacrifice any part of my inner self to stay longer, if I had some mental illness.




Which particular treatments are you talking about, and for which conditions? I'm struggling to think of a mental illness where the usual treatment would have such drastic side effects as impairing the ability to walk.
People lose their balance, feel stiffness, and have dulled senses after most treatments. It is a fact.




Sounds like you are advocating "live fast, die young". In most cases, psychiatric medicine is not about prolonging life, but about improving quality of life. I think you could benefit from reading about some common mental illnesses, such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or anorexia. Delusions, hallucinations and weighing five stone are not "precious qualities", they are symptoms of serious illness, and should be treated as such.
Such treatments deprive people of their ability to think, to feel, and to analyze. I do not think they've improved the quality of anyone's life. Delusions, hallucinations and other symptoms may be a part of one's life truly discouraging, but they lead to some other blessings which will not have come to pass without these symptoms.

[Tsuyoiko]

People who are not engaged in Psychiatry will never have the right to make assertions, and nobody will believe them because they are not experts in this field, if they try to make one.

In other words, neither of us is qualified to say whether psychiatry works or not, since neither of us is expert in the field. So I'll shut up now :D

[virginiawang]

Everyone has a right to his own views. You may say anything as much as you like, but those experts in psychiatry are not going to believe you.

[kratsayra]

sorry to jump in late, but I agree with Tsuyoiko and I wanted to express my opinion. I'm going to write primarily of my own experience. As I know how I feel and react, and I can't speak for others only based on heresay.



Psychiatric medication makes people idiots because it dulls human senses. You have to agree in that part of ourselves which nobody can see through.


I suffer from Generalized Anxiety Disorder and have been taking medication for it for the past four years or so. I never, not once, not for a second, felt "dulled" by the medication or otherwise unable to enjoy life as I did prior to taking it. I know a lot of people do have that side effect and for that reason discontinue the medication they are on. But I am here to say that did not happen to me.

I did not feel dulled but in fact more aware of my surroundings. My anxiety had been so severe that I was unable to participate regularly in daily life. I felt cut off from everything around me when my anxiety was at its most extreme. Taking medication enabled me to deal better with my anxiety symptoms so that I didn't feel that way.

So I just had to point out that it doesn't dull my experience of life at all. I have virtually no side effects at this point (just vivid dreams once in a while). I did have some when I first started it, but nothing alarming (just some jumpiness in my arms and legs, which quickly went away).

It all depends on what drug you are taking, for what condition, and your own individual reaction to it. I am lucky to have found one that works well for me and that has never made me feel dull or idiotic (I should hope, as I've been taking it for most of my successful time in graduate
school!).

As for psychoanalysis as a practice, it seems people do get a benefit out of it. I don't know how or why, but if they "think" they are benefiting from it, than they probably are. Most of the ideology behind it I find rather silly. But I know a handful of people who swear by it. If it helps them, that's great. Who cares why. I have been to an analyst before but I didn't find it that useful. I did cognitive behavioral therapy as well, which is very useful in getting immediate results but I find isn't that useful in really fixing anything, only in dealing with symptoms. I would like to be able to permanently "cure" my anxiety, but that may not be possible with any sort of drug or therapy.

[kratsayra]

An oncologist offers material help rather than spiritual help, which is offered by consellers. He removes cancer cells by various treatments, which are based on objective methods all people on earth agree in, because cancer cells are supposed to be destroyed.

I don't think all people on earth agree that cancer should be treated in the same way. You (or I) may think those people are wrong, but I do not think it is fair to suggest that everyone on earth agrees on the same treatments for cancer. There are numerous cultures and societies that envision the body in different ways than Western medicine does.

If you are interested to read about a particular culture that perceives the body differently from Western medicine, you can look at Debility and the Moral Imagination in Botswana by Julie Livingston. I don't want to cite specifics about the beliefs and understandings of people in Botswana here, but I wanted to refer to that book so you would know I wasn't just making stuff up for the sake of it.

[Virgil]

sorry to jump in late, but I agree with Tsuyoiko and I wanted to express my opinion. I'm going to write primarily of my own experience. As I know how I feel and react, and I can't speak for others only based on heresay.



I suffer from Generalized Anxiety Disorder and have been taking medication for it for the past four years or so. I never, not once, not for a second, felt "dulled" by the medication or otherwise unable to enjoy life as I did prior to taking it. I know a lot of people do have that side effect and for that reason discontinue the medication they are on. But I am here to say that did not happen to me.


Nice to see you Kratsy. I've spoken elsewhere about the history of my mother's depression and anxiety. She's been on medication twenty something years. She has never been "dulled" or dumbed. If any thing her persoanlity became more up. Treating her depression and anxiety with freudian psychoanalysis is akin to a witch doctor. Mental illness is a disease of the brain, probably chemical in nature, not some root cause experiential nature.

[Janine]

Oh wow, I have been reading along and I keep thinking, if the posters (no names mentioned) had to live with a person who is seriously mentally ill, they would quickly change their tunes about this. Virgil said it correctly - mental illness is a chemical inbalance or alteration of the brain; the brain clearly malfunctions - this is evidenced on MRI scans and has solid grounds in medicine. No amount of psychoanalysis is going to alter that. I know first hand, because my sister is severly mentally ill. Since Christmastime, she has been hospitalized 4 times. Left without medication, this was the result. She took meds for years and was functional. Going off the meds, which always controlled her mania, sent her into a realm no one can even imagine. Had no intervention occurred, she would now be either dead or living on the streets. She was totally delusional, spending her life-savings in a matter of days, getting in trouble with the law, and had unclear scrambled thoughts, mental confusion. What people don't understand, is going off medications that control serious disorders, can actually make the person much worse in the long run, from how they were perviously; some never return again to any close state of reality.

I have learned a great deal in the past months going to seminars and witnessing first hand, other serious cases. I just want to emphasis that mental illness is a real disease. It's not just a case of 'mind over matter.' It's as real as diabetes or heart disease or cancer. Just like diabetes, there are medications, which can help to balance out the inbalance of chemicals in the brain. It's not curable, just as diabetes is not curable, but it is treatable. All medications, for all disorders, have side-effects. One learns to live with them. One learns to manage any type illness. One doesn't have a choice.

Our family support councelor lent me a book recently, called I Am Not Sick. by Xavier Amador. You can find it on Amazon. It will tell how a brother (the author) wrote this book for his younger brother, who is bipolar, I believe. I am not far into the book, but so far it makes perfect sense.

While doing my own research on the internet, I came across a law in NYC and state that was passed not long ago, and is now a model for other states. This involves the privacy laws an involuntary/voluntary treatment. A mentally ill man pushed a young woman off a train platform in front of an ongoing train, instantly killing her; thus this law came to be. The law is called the Kendra Law, which makes it lawful/mandatory to take individuals, such as this individual, into a facility and get him the needed help. People who are mentally ill can be a great threat to other individuals. You can read about the law and the case online. No degree of psychotherapy would alter this individuals perspective on life. He had a 'mind-disease' as real as cancer.

[Haunted]

Kratsyra, glad you're feeling so much better now.

Janine, really sorry to hear about your sister. It takes many trials and errors to get the meds right, and then they'd also change them from time to time. It takes anywhere around 4-6 weeks for the meds to kick in. But getting the patient to take their meds is whole different story!

I too personally think that psychoanalysis, as well as psychotherapies, are overrated.

[kratsayra]

While doing my own research on the internet, I came across a law in NYC and state that was passed not long ago, and is now a model for other states. This involves the privacy laws an involuntary/voluntary treatment. A mentally ill man pushed a young woman off a train platform in front of an ongoing train, instantly killing her; thus this law came to be. The law is called the Kendra Law, which makes it lawful/mandatory to take individuals, such as this individual, into a facility and get him the needed help. People who are mentally ill can be a great threat to other individuals. You can read about the law and the case online. No degree of psychotherapy would alter this individuals perspective on life. He had a 'mind-disease' as real as cancer.

really? I didn't know about the law.

It is striking to me that modern psychoanalysis does in fact think that severe mental illness can be dealt with through analysis. I find it very hard to believe that such a thing could be possible. But I would be fascinated to witness it.


Kratsy, glad you're feeling so much better now.



Thank you. I'm thankful that my condition is not as complex to treat as something like bipolar disorder.

[Janine]

really? I didn't know about the law.

kratasayra, oh yes, the law is very real. I found out about it since I live in NJ and had to wade through a lot of red tape in the system to have assess to information and doctors to help my sister through her crisis. At one time my mother nor I even knew where she was and another time we only found out she was in a behavorial hospital due to someone slipping it to me in an offhand way. The system is very flawed. It allows truly mentally ill people who need help to live on the streets. One woman I meet at a seminar told me her brother was missing for over 15 yrs and thought by her family to be dead. The authorities finally located him living behind a mall. Now, if this is not harmful to oneself and to others I am miffed but within NJ law if he refused treatment he could legally do so. He could hazzard others on the street. How do you think these people who do such horrific things to others start out? In fact, in this book I am currently reading it first sites people whose relatives made certain statements, then it might say "sister of the unibomber"....see my point. Little did the family even suspect their loved one could be capable of such feats.

Yes, the Kendra law is very real. I am only hopeful that NJ heeds that law and does the same. I was under much stress fighting the system and trying to manuover through the privacy laws in order to get help for my sister. If one hasn't gone through it, one would not know how horrific it can be...it's pure frustration and stress. The Kendra law exists because people finally accepted the fact that many mentally ill people cannot recognise that they are indeed ill. Therefore they don't go for treatment or allow treatment. They are still a threat to others. I will look up the law and see if I can post some links. I hope I am spelling Kendra correctly.


It is striking to me that modern psychoanalysis does in fact think that severe mental illness can be dealt with through analysis. I find it very hard to believe that such a thing could be possible. But I would be fascinated to witness it.

You must have misunderstood me. The professionals I have come into contact with both in and out of hospitals do not think serious mental illness can be handled with psychotherapy. Psychoanalysis is never the first way to approach the seriously mentally ill individual, they know this. It would be meaningless to patients. The first line of action has to be directed at the disease with chemical means/medication. Then some behavioral consuling is employed, mostly, I have seen this in the form of group therapies and some encouraging councelors one to one who are there to help the person deal with their illness. I would not call it psychoanalysis at all; in other words they don't delve back into a person's past; they are more concerned with the 'here and now'. In fact, I have often questioned my family support councelor, about whether this should be part of the outpatient treatment plan. But in no way, could it replace the medication which controls the disease. He said it might be a part but it would only be a small part. I now can understand that. It would help other family members to relate to the person and see how the family as a unit works but as far as the sick individual, I don't think it would work at all. They are incapable of seeing any logic in their past. This may only work for those who suffer phobios or post traumatic stress syndrome; things that have developed over time. Mental illness is based in heredity. They are proving that fact everyday a little more so. I just read several articles on it online. If you want to know more about mental illness and how it is currently being viewed and treated go to the NAMI site. That stands for the National Allience of the Mentally Ill. There is a lot of good information there.


Thank you. I'm thankful that my condition is not as complex to treat as something like bipolar disorder.

I know that you are thanking Haunted here, but I will add that I too am glad you are doing well with your own treatment. If you take medication, I can't stress enough how important it is to stay on the medication, even if you feel better. I just read about how so many stop medication, thinking now they are cured, but unfortunately it does not work that way. If the medication is working for you, be grateful for it. Years ago science did not know as much as they know now and the broad array of good newer drugs is staggering. Things will get even better in the future; but for now, if something works for you, stick with it, because it most likely totally improves your quality of life.

Haunted, thanks for your comments. I appreciate them. Glad you understand. It's been a terribly difficult time for my family; basically for me since I have handled most of the care and the communication with the professionals.

[virginiawang]

Please allow me some questions. Did your sister willingly accept the medical treatments or did you impose them upon her? What made you think you had the right to compel her to take medications? Does she lose her right as a free individual because she was diagnosed of some mental illness?
I know, perhaps you are going to say you've been doing someting good for her, or perhaps something like she is unaware of her illness. If she is unaware of her illness, how did you become aware of her illness? How do you know you're doing something good for her rather than hurting her in one way or another? Even if the whole world agrees in something, we still cannot jump into conclusions that it is the absolute truth,and nothing but the truth because some people may discover something newer to displace it some day in the future, who knows? However, nothing is absolute. If you transgress the boundaries of her rights, you are not doing something moral and kind. I wondered when I read your posts if you had been considering yourself a God or somebody above that, who knows everything beyond human knowledge. How did you get the presumption to "take care" of your sister against her will?

[Haunted]

You're welcome, Janine, I wanted you to know that many of us here appreciated your sharing your experience of a mental illness in your family. I understand how difficult it is to even talk about it, and I hope things will get better for you and your sister in time with treatment. As with any illnesses, it's not just the person suffering, it's their loved ones as well, just in a different way.

Besides the Kendra Law, there's another law in New York, the Timothy Law, that ensures one gets the same type of psychiatric coverage as medical illnesses. Before this law, insurances limited the number of visits etc, so patients didn't get sufficient care and treatment. As a result a boy named Timothy committed suicide.

Often diagnosis of mental illness is through observation. To prevent teenage suicides, kids are asked to report any unusual/disturbing/alarming behaviors of their friends to get help in time to save a life. With adults they probably seek treatment on their own.

It's recommended that the treatment be a combination of meds and psychotherapy. Psychotherapy is mostly a talk therapy. Some therapists help with leading questions and analyses (or theories) to help patients see clearly the problems they're facing, some just let them talk and talk and talk.... Since a lot of people like to talk about themselves it's a good way to vent and feel better. But most mental illnesses call for medication.

Some people who are depressed such as losing a loved one have what they called situational depression, it's temporary and they go off their meds after a while. Some other people need meds throughout their lives. Those suffering from schizophrenia would be candidates for long term medication.

Mental illnesses are very real and shouldn't be taken lightly. And it shouldn't be a stigma for people suffering from it. These patients as well as the family members caring for them should be shown the same sensitivity as someone with a medical condition.

[amarna]

As to psychoses like schizophrenia and bipolar disorders I think medication is the only way to correct the neurochemical imbalances. Modern antipsychotic medicals with few side effects, as have been developed in the last 10,15 years, are a blessing for those who are concerned, and it is nonsense to demonize them. (I think you can be very happy, Janine, that they're enabling your sister to have a rather "normal" life.)
Though I am convinced that for neuroses and personality disorders psychotherapies do help, not psychoanalysis, which was innovative 100 years ago and is obsolete now, but cognitive behavioral therapies. I think neuroses and personality disorders are learned reactions to physical and emotional abuse in childhood and thus they can be "unlearned".

[Janine]

Please allow me some questions.

Hi virginiawang, yes, I am very willing to answer these to the best of my ability.


Did your sister willingly accept the medical treatments or did you impose them upon her?

1. Let me give you a little background information. My sister worked for years for insurance companies and went to college in CA. She was very active, highly creative, industrious, and had a lot of friends; she is very intelligent. She lived for many years with her boyfriend in CA; then they married and they broke up not long after; she left with only a few things. Her whole life she lived on a kind of roller coaster - fluctuating between very extreme highs alternating with some lows. She had a 'crisis' or a 'mental breakdown' and ended up living on the streets with some low class man, who was homeless; she actually, talked later, about how they ate our of dumpsters behind restaurants; can one even imagine that? Since my family lives in NJ, we were quite helpless to find her, let alone help her. Later on, she lived with a former professor; he got in-touch with us, saying he was sending her (via plane) home; and he told us he had helped her get psychiatric help in CA; there she was also hosptialised. She was home no more than 24 hours (here in my mother's house where I also live) and she asked to be hospitalised. She was in complete crisis at this point, perhaps even close to dying. After a stay for over a month at a leading hospital in the area she came home diagnosed with bipolar disorder. She went on diabiltiy and she attended a more advanced night outpatient program to try to continue her care and see a doctor on a regular basis. She did this for over 10 yrs; she was stable on her medications and quite functional, although she did not actively work.

Then about a year or so ago, a new doctor was appointed to her case in the program. He took her abruptly off one medication and then she went downhill, having unreal thoughts and delusional behavior. I then thought of calling this doctor and getting involved. I am far from being God, or of trying to control my sister's illness; if was God with more insight into the future I would have gotten involved at the first signs of a problem. I stayed clear of any involvement of the kind at the time, unfortunately. I now regret that I did see the signs, but did not actively act, on what I suspected. Then it became impossible to question this doctor as to his motives, because he was very obese and unhealthy himself which lead to his suddenly having a heartattack, and being his end suddenly.....sad. Thus, another new doctor came on the scene. Later, when I did get involved, in getting my sister the help she needed, I was asked to gather up all her medications to take to the hospital. In doing so, my mother and I discovered much abuse of the drugs - either overdosing or not taking them at all or very little. By now, my sister was in a very bad state of mind; completely irrational and confused. She was hospitalised 4 times in the beginning of this year. She willingly went to the hospital each time, even though crisis was called, via 911.



What made you think you had the right to compel her to take medications?

2. I and my family and our friends, have seen her stable and happy on the medications; her councelors and I agree that she had a 'sparkle' and 'a love of life', when her disease was controlled with her medications. I have seen the otherside of this...and it's very sad and ugly, scary, too. She did not try to do bizzare things, while on the medication; without it, she wanted to run away with a drug addict who lives several states away, a person she has never seen and started to write to in prison. This individual is also wanted by the criminal justice system...absconded parole; he's been in and out of prisons all his life. For many years, she had a sense of right and wrong, of realism and non-realism, which has now become completely blurred. Can you see my point? Her thinking is bizzare and potenially harmful to herself, as well as others.


Does she lose her right as a free individual because she was diagnosed of some mental illness?

What type of rights, as a 'free individual', are you talking about? She has complete right in her care in her outpatient program. She lives with my mother and myself; my mother is 87 and I am 59, with a physical disabilty of my own. If her rights, as a 'free individual' exceed accepted behavior in a household, then she does not have these rights. One can't just do as one pleases, when sharing living quarters with others. The other occupants have 'rights' as well. Other than that, since she chooses to live in a family situation, she has the same rights as my mother and myself. Let me give you a blantant example: neither my mother or I, feel it appropriate or decent to walk about the house with open windows stark naked. However, she is told she does not have this right living with us. She is told repeatedly, but this is one example of her blur between reality and non-reality. Before this, she would not have done such a thing. Our houses in this neighborhood allow for her to be seen by our neighbors. Lude conduct as this is not allowed in my mother's house. That's just basic decent respect for each other. Also, let me ask you this; if people are taking all matter of care of you - doing your laundry, washing your dishes, feeding you, buying food for you, transporting you to doctors and pharmacies, administering your medications, because you claim to be too confused to do so, how do you think this is not an infringement on the rights of the caretakers involved? Don't they have some rights, too? Do you think I ask to do all this? I do this out of a sense to help my sister and my mother as well.


I know, perhaps you are going to say you've been doing someting good for her, or perhaps something like she is unaware of her illness. If she is unaware of her illness, how did you become aware of her illness? How do you know you're doing something good for her rather than hurting her in one way or another?

3. First off, I know that what I did a few days before Christmas, took great courage and fortitude on my part. I called a crisis worker for help; she came to our house, because my sister send the parolee a sum money to get plane fare to fly here to run away with her. I called out of a sense of protection for my mother and myself firstly; at the same time, I did attempt to save my sister from a very bad situation, in which she would have become homeless and destitute. She ended up leaving the house and ran to 4 hotels in 2 days time! One hotel, she never checked out of, I had to go there to check her out. In 4 days, she had spend a major portion of her savings; she finally called home to be rescued saying she had lost her car in a shopping mall. At this instance, she was told she would be rescued, if she submitted to an evaluation at a hospital. She was admitted to a hospital for long term care, after calling three more crisis centers. At the time my family went through hell and was living under tremendous stress. My intention was never to harm my sister. This is my loved one, my sister. I intended to get her the help, which she desperately needed, before she ended up dead or maimed, lost or homeless. Her eratic driving lead her to traffic court later, for several bizzare moving violations. She lost her license. Thank God, when she ran that stop sign and red light she did not hit a child or a person and kill them or herself. No, I was totally justified at the time taking her to crisis centers and getting her the help she needed.


Even if the whole world agrees in something, we still cannot jump into conclusions that it is the absolute truth,and nothing but the truth because some people may discover something newer to displace it some day in the future, who knows? However, nothing is absolute. If you transgress the boundaries of her rights, you are not doing something moral and kind.

4.I never trangressed or exceeded her rights. She asked several times for help on her own. One night, she asked to be taken directly to the hospital crisis center. Even if she hadn't, she had become a danger to herself at that point and possibly to others. We had ever right to step in that during that time. Now a whole team are trying to help her to stay out of the hospital. They would rather see her become stable again and as she had been then see her have to return to the hospital. Are they all exceeding her rights by trying to help her. Her condition is not mild or vague. It's a very real thing with very definite symptoms - highly possible even schizophrenic at this point. Several of the professionals believe so.


I wondered when I read your posts if you had been considering yourself a God or somebody above that, who knows everything beyond human knowledge. How did you get the presumption to "take care" of your sister against her will?

5.I have to be honest and say I take offense to both of these statements. I am far from a God, I am humble even when my friends have told me I have been heroic in this time of crisis. I am just a regular person seeing the difference between a well person who functions and one who is very ill and not functioning without her medications. I am just a sister trying to aid a mother and her sister. What a thought, that I should know everything above human knowledge. I am stunned by this statement of yours. I did not presume to do anything. I simply had to seek outside help since the situation living with this ill person had become deplorable and dangerous. I now am the caretaker out of need to aid my aging mother and myself so that we might live here in a peaceful environment and not feel endangered. I don't think you understand how serious things like this can be.

I will answer the other comments later on. I appreciate them all.

[kratsayra]

kratasayra,
You must have misunderstood me. The professionals I have come into contact with both in and out of hospitals do not think serious mental illness can be handled with psychotherapy. Psychoanalysis is never the first way to approach the seriously mentally ill individual, they know this. It would be meaningless to patients. The first line of action has to be directed at the disease with chemical means/medication. Then some behavioral consuling is employed, mostly, I have seen this in the form of group therapies and some encouraging councelors one to one who are there to help the person deal with their illness. I would not call it psychoanalysis at all; in other words they don't delve back into a person's past; they are more concerned with the 'here and now'.

I took what you said as a jumping off point, but I guess I was in fact the one who was not clear. My mother is in training for a Master's degree in modern psychoanalysis and the people in her school do in fact think that psychoanalysis can be part of an effective treatment for severe mental illness - even something like schizophrenia. I don't know about all the professors and students there, but I'm sure some of them (and my mother included) wouldn't suggest that psychoanalysis be the only form of treatment, the person should have medication also. But they do think it is possible to treat severe mental illness through psychoanalysis (as opposed to cognitive methods or regular "talk therapy"). Currently, my mother is doing fieldwork training at a day treatment center for people with severe mental illness (who can't really take care of themselves during the day without their families). She uses the psychoanalytic methods she's learned to talk to them. She's just in training of course, and all those people have lots of doctors and nurses and medications taking care of them.

Since this thread is initially about psychoanalysis, I was just making an observation about this possibility - that someone could be helped by psychotherapy even if they weren't in the same version of reality as the rest of us, as with something like schizophrenia. Could it be possible?

And don't worry, just cause my mom is learning to be a psychoanalyst, it doesn't mean I'm offended by all this talk of psychoanalysis being problematic. I think a lot of what she studies is pretty interesting. But when she starts suggesting that the reason I have such-and-such concern is because of something that happened when I was a baby I am always like "give me a break!!" :)

[Janine]

I took what you said as a jumping off point, but I guess I was in fact the one who was not clear. My mother is in training for a Master's degree in modern psychoanalysis and the people in her school do in fact think that psychoanalysis can be part of an effective treatment for severe mental illness - even something like schizophrenia. I don't know about all the professors and students there, but I'm sure some of them (and my mother included) wouldn't suggest that psychoanalysis be the only form of treatment, the person should have medication also. But they do think it is possible to treat severe mental illness through psychoanalysis (as opposed to cognitive methods or regular "talk therapy"). Currently, my mother is doing fieldwork training at a day treatment center for people with severe mental illness (who can't really take care of themselves during the day without their families). She uses the psychoanalytic methods she's learned to talk to them. She's just in training of course, and all those people have lots of doctors and nurses and medications taking care of them.

You know, it's good to hear this; since, I have been questioning my own family support specialist, about the possibility of this helping in my sister's case. I think he agrees, that they do employ some of this in her outpatient program. I would love to hear, more specifically, just what this entails. For instance, could you ask you mother to define the modern view of psychotherapy to me? I am interested to know how they approach a really sick individual, especially one that isn't able to distinquish reality from fantasy. I am sure she will agree that psychotherapy is only one tool in the treatment of such a patient. It seems as thought years ago they threw out the notion of psychotherapy and now they are returning to it in some form; but my question would be, if the old-time version of pyschotherapy is the same as the new one, or has it evolved?


Since this thread is initially about psychoanalysis, I was just making an observation about this possibility - that someone could be helped by psychotherapy even if they weren't in the same version of reality as the rest of us, as with something like schizophrenia. Could it be possible?

They may be able to be helped or it may cause them more stress; this I am not knowledgable to answer. It can never replace medication to treat severe disorders, such as schizophrenia. My sister's case is not the only one I am familiar with. I know of dozens of cases of individuals, some of who refused treatments and now they are dead. I can think of, off the top of my head, 4 distinct cases, and these were tragedies for the families as well as the individuals who died much too soon in each case...all I refer to were under the age of 50. Two I believe to be suicides, one from a freak accident, brought about by an encounter with another person, because of a luid remark made during a manic episode. One in which the person actually blew themselves up accidently with some type of explosive. Each of these individuals needed medication; proven because they functioned nearly normally on their medications. Some were even able to work.


And don't worry, just cause my mom is learning to be a psychoanalyst, it doesn't mean I'm offended by all this talk of psychoanalysis being problematic. I think a lot of what she studies is pretty interesting. But when she starts suggesting that the reason I have such-and-such concern is because of something that happened when I was a baby I am always like "give me a break!!" :)

haha..I would probably say that too. I use that phrase often myself. Hang in there, kratsayra. When your mother works in the field for awhile she may change her attitude. Now it's easy to practice on family members.

[alexar]

Janine, thanks for sharing your experiences. It struck me that in their complexity they were a good antidote to some of the oversimplifications this thread has been prone to. Your justifications of your actions were graceful but unnecessary; there is no doubt in my mind after reading that, like most people who find themselves suddenly bearing such responsibilities, you struggled hard with these impossible issues, thought them through without prejudice, and did the best thing. Better than most I would say, in fact, because of the kind intelligence you brought to bear.

A friend of mine is a practising psychoanalyst, and would certainly claim some success in certain sorts of cases. Irrational fears, for example, can be crippling and can indeed sometimes have their roots in childhood; these roots can sometimes be accessed via the talking cure when medication could only banish them temporarily. This of course is not to say that medication isn't a wonderful help, neither is it incompatible with psychoanalytical approaches.

Psychoanalysis is much more timeconsuming than cognitive-behavioural therapy, which is one reason why the latter approach is favoured by governments, being often the most cost-effective way of dealing with mental illness. C-BT treats symptoms; psychoanalysis tries to find causes. They don't have to be mutually exclusive.

I'll finish by saying that 'Civilisation and its Discontents' was one of the most compelling books I have ever read. I would be surprised to hear that modern psychiatry had shown all its insights to be nugatory, and would be interested to hear the details of this achievement.

[Janine]

You're welcome, Janine, I wanted you to know that many of us here appreciated your sharing your experience of a mental illness in your family. I understand how difficult it is to even talk about it, and I hope things will get better for you and your sister in time with treatment. As with any illnesses, it's not just the person suffering, it's their loved ones as well, just in a different way.

Thank you, Haunted. This post of yours in my support means a great deal to me. If I hadn't good friend on here and otherwise to help me through this crisis I would be a raving lunatic myself. It was not easy to relay some of my personal family history but I figured if it shed light on the issue it might help others. Exactly, no household is immune from the suffering of one adult person who is suffering from this diabling illness. The whole family is severely impacted and suffer along with the the sick family member.


Besides the Kendra Law, there's another law in New York, the Timothy Law, that ensures one gets the same type of psychiatric coverage as medical illnesses. Before this law, insurances limited the number of visits etc, so patients didn't get sufficient care and treatment. As a result a boy named Timothy committed suicide.

I didn't know about this second law and it's implications. I will look into that further; it truly interests me as does advocacy in my own state. I need to attend meetings for NAMI and get more involved. I know it would even help me to cope with my own situation to network with other suffering family members and also to take part to try to improve the system in my state. Everyone involved in my sister's case has openly admitted that the laws here need reform.

I know of a lovely family reminescent of Timothy's case. The parents were called in the middle of the night to take their beloved son to a crisis center. He is the one that called for help. The crisis center checked him over but then sent him home; that night he committed suicide; he overdosed on medications. The fact that many of the crisis centers allow severely ill patients to go home and do not admit them for treatment is a huge problem. It's only one. The restrictions of the privacy laws in the state are insane. One has to take untold hours to work through all the red tape in order to find out how an family member is doing or even where they are being treated.


Often diagnosis of mental illness is through observation. To prevent teenage suicides, kids are asked to report any unusual/disturbing/alarming behaviors of their friends to get help in time to save a life. With adults they probably seek treatment on their own. Absolutely true! My brother-in-laws oldest son (18 yrs old) comnmitted suicide - another tragedy. The family suffers to his day. Apparently, no one reported any signs of unusual behavior; to this day, the father shakes his head and is miffed as to why his son would do such a think. He shot himself by rigging up a 12 gage shotgun to his head. His younger brother (about 15 at the time) found him. Can one even imagine that? Now this poor brother may be the one to benefit from psychotherapy. I definitely think the father could use some. What a thing to live with, for the rest of one's life.


It's recommended that the treatment be a combination of meds and psychotherapy. Psychotherapy is mostly a talk therapy. Some therapists help with leading questions and analyses (or theories) to help patients see clearly the problems they're facing, some just let them talk and talk and talk.... Since a lot of people like to talk about themselves it's a good way to vent and feel better. But most mental illnesses call for medication.

Yes, I agree with this. I think it can be a valuable tool in recovery or treatment. It can't be relied on solely for all or even most cases of the severely mentally ill. But it does have it's merits.


Some people who are depressed such as losing a loved one have what they called situational depression, it's temporary and they go off their meds after a while. Some other people need meds throughout their lives. Those suffering from schizophrenia would be candidates for long term medication.

I agree. Hey, I get periods of depression myself, but it's brought on by real outside influences, not ones of my own making. We all get mood swings too and they are quite in the normal range. Therefore, it is not clinical depression. That type of depression, borne out of no true reasoning, is the type must be treated medically (with medications) to alter brain chemicals, that cause this illogical type depression.


Mental illnesses are very real and shouldn't be taken lightly. And it shouldn't be a stigma for people suffering from it. These patients as well as the family members caring for them should be shown the same sensitivity as someone with a medical condition.

I totally agree. Some would not speak up about their views on it. They might think if one person in a family were mentally ill then the person speaking up might also be. I have no such thoughts for myself; I am secure about my own mental state. I have my eccentricities and quirps but I am sure I am not mentally ill at this time. I am very lucid and can think straight. A lot of people won't even admit their relatives have a problem because of the stigma of the illness; that's a sad thing.


As to psychoses like schizophrenia and bipolar disorders I think medication is the only way to correct the neurochemical imbalances. Modern antipsychotic medicals with few side effects, as have been developed in the last 10,15 years, are a blessing for those who are concerned, and it is nonsense to demonize them. (I think you can be very happy, Janine, that they're enabling your sister to have a rather "normal" life.)
Though I am convinced that for neuroses and personality disorders psychotherapies do help, not psychoanalysis, which was innovative 100 years ago and is obsolete now, but cognitive behavioral therapies. I think neuroses and personality disorders are learned reactions to physical and emotional abuse in childhood and thus they can be "unlearned".

I would agree with this way of thinking. Yes, there are many new and improved drugs on the market; many more than years ago. I know because my father was diagosed with a similar disorder as my sister. These things do run in families in the gene pool, the DNA; which only further supports the facts which prove that these conditions are chemically and physically based, involving defective activity in the brain.

I don't know what the latest is on psychotherapy and it's benefits or studies that show of it's effectiveness in cases of severe mental illness. I think it could help people who are neurotic and have fear disorders to sort out why they have them and address the situation from a different and more logical perspective. In this way, it might help these individuals.

[Virgil]

5.I have to be honest and say I take offense to both of these statements. I am far from a God, I am humble even when my friends have told me I have been heroic in this time of crisis. I am just a regular person seeing the difference between a well person who functions and one who is very ill and not functioning without her medications. I am just a sister trying to aid a mother and her sister. What a thought, that I should know everything above human knowledge. I am stunned by this statement of yours. I did not presume to do anything. I simply had to seek outside help since the situation living with this ill person had become deplorable and dangerous. I now am the caretaker out of need to aid my aging mother and myself so that we might live here in a peaceful environment and not feel endangered. I don't think you understand how serious things like this can be.


Janine, you are doing the absolute best anyone could. Your sister is lucky to have you. She would be a street person right now if it wasn't for you.

[Logos]

While this is obviously an emotional topic for many, when responding to this thread, please keep negative judgemental comments directed at specific members* out of it or your entire post will be removed. Anybody quoting such * posts will also have their post removed from this point forward.

[virginiawang]

I've read your post. You did not seem to have given me a definite answer to the question whether you had ever in your life forced your sister to take a treatment, totally against her will. If the answer is yes, please read my reply in the new thread entitled, Anyone who has ever imposed a psychiatric treatment against some other people, please read. By the way, I don't quite understand the reasons why you mentioned law in your previous posts.


As to psychoses like schizophrenia and bipolar disorders I think medication is the only way to correct the neurochemical imbalances. Modern antipsychotic medicals with few side effects, as have been developed in the last 10,15 years, are a blessing for those who are concerned, and it is nonsense to demonize them.
Have you ever noticed the physical changes of a person after he undertook some of those medical treatments for a while? They walked with a strange gait, and they looked from only one angle as if their eyes had been fixed from within. Do any of you think it is a sort of blessing that you would also love to be bestowed upon? If not, why did you condemn those people who were diagnosed of some mental illnesses to this cruilty? I do know they have symptoms hard to be coped with, and medical treatments calmed down their hyper-active nerves. However they can make their own choices, I think, and they are not supposed to take any medication if they want to live the way they do. If they do hurt people or do something against the law, let law deal with them as it does with ordinary people. You cannot deprive a person of his rights and freedom only because you think he may do something outrageous. Ordinary people may commit crimes in an unexpected manner, and can anyone of you predict who is going to commit crime under whatever unpredictable circumstances? Are you going to jail all people on earth because of this unpredictability? If you wish to jail all people with a likelihood to hurt, you'll have nobody left to jail them.
By the way, you said people who have schizophrenia are supposed to take medication in a long term. I wonder who gave you the right to make such a decree. You mentioned also the imbalance of chemicals in a brain being the sole cause of some metal illnesses. If that is the case, why are we not able to see one single patient being tranformed into those people who have never been diagnosed with mental illnesses exactly, after treatments which handle the imbalance? I am sure you're not able to give even one example on earth from past to present. Could Janine's sister act and think like Janine after the treatments? No. It only proves that claims made by psychiatrists are not the whole truth.
However if poeple do wish to receive treatments on their own accord, they have a right to do so. If they don't, those who compel them have done something awful.

[amarna]

Virginia, I think a lot of us have made very hurtful experiences with this issue. So please be so kind to understand that I will not continue this disastrous discussion.

[virginiawang]

Virginia, I think a lot of us have made very hurtful experiences with this issue. So please be so kind to understand that I will not continue this disastrous discussion.

But you didn't answer any of my questions which I raised concerning what you asserted. You've insulted metally disturbed people in a way that hurt many people as well.

[Haunted]

Amarna, I agree with what you said and your rule of engagement. I'm afraid that if I say the following I may open myself to similar attacks but to restore some civility to this thread...

Can this badgering and interrogation stop????

There's got to be a better way to communicate. The accusatory and confrontational tone, the twisting of facts and wild assumptions is really disturbing. I don't understand this hostility and I can't help but noticing a perpetuating anger issue here....

Janine, my heart goes out to you. I'm sorry you were put on the spot. The personal details you revealed and so generously shared with us is just excruciating. You were involuntarily put into this predicament, you made the right choices as any logical and caring person would. I'll keep you in my prayers.

[Janine]

I've read your post. You did not seem to have given me a definite answer to the question whether you had ever in your life forced your sister to take a treatment, totally against her will. If the answer is yes, please read my reply in the new thread entitled, Anyone who has ever imposed a psychiatric treatment against some other people, please read. By the way, I don't quite understand the reasons why you mentioned law in your previous posts.

NO, I have not imposed medication on my sister; never. She does not refuse her medication. My sister agrees she needs this medication in order to get well again. She simply forgets to take it or mixes the pills up, because she is not recently, mentally or emotionally capable, of taking them properly on her own. For at least 10 or more years, she did take them consistenly. I had no part in that. She lives here with my mother and I, but she had complete control over her mental health and her medications. My sister is not young. She is in her mid 50's.

[Scheherazade]

F i n a l W a r n i n g

Please do not personalise your arguments.

Furhter posts with such comments will lead to thread closure.

[kratsayra]

You know, it's good to hear this; since, I have been questioning my own family support specialist, about the possibility of this helping in my sister's case. I think he agrees, that they do employ some of this in her outpatient program. I would love to hear, more specifically, just what this entails. For instance, could you ask you mother to define the modern view of psychotherapy to me? I am interested to know how they approach a really sick individual, especially one that isn't able to distinquish reality from fantasy. I am sure she will agree that psychotherapy is only one tool in the treatment of such a patient. It seems as thought years ago they threw out the notion of psychotherapy and now they are returning to it in some form; but my question would be, if the old-time version of pyschotherapy is the same as the new one, or has it evolved?

I will ask her about it when I get the chance and get back to you. I don't know enough about it to answer on my own!

[Janine]

I will ask her about it when I get the chance and get back to you. I don't know enough about it to answer on my own!

Sure, that will great, thanks. Feel free to PM me on here.