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blazeofglory
07-02-2009, 10:41 AM
First of all I am very skeptical about the existence of love, the seeming love that is so shallow, superficial. Of course parental love seems profounder by comparison. This love is natural.

But in point of fact why generally call pure unconditional love is illusive. Love amongst youths happens when they physically mature and become sexually active. This is biological need and how can you say this is pure, unconditional. This is totally conditional.

Animals seem to love,and dogs show unexceptionable love for their masters. Is it pure? Maybe it is their dependency.

Love in animals is instinctive.

Even humans' love is also a kind of instinctive behavior.

Is love biological and psychological?

Is it divine, purse, unconditional and unadulterated?

Do people are sacrificial in reality when it comes to love and compassion?

These are grave questions and we have divided opinions.

That said, all I feel is whether animals or humans our love is conditional and instinctive.

Olga4real
07-02-2009, 11:37 AM
For thousands of years world's philosophers could not find a correct definition of love. If you ask anybody have they love in their lives they would answer YES but for each of us meaning of love is different.
Recently I found this quote about love and would like to share it with you.

"If so many men, so many minds, certainly so many hearts, so many kinds of love. "
-------------------------
Leo Tolstoy
This is the answer to your questions.
Love is a mixture of biological, psychological, divine, purse, unconditional, unadulterated and of sacrificial. I am talking about love not about pretending.
The quantity of each component depends on your personality, your age maybe somehow on the person you love.

Parental love is a kind of instinct as well.
What about animals, well I have two pets (cats), used to have dogs as well. It would be exaggeration to say that they love, but I am certain they are able to feel some kind of attachment toward their owners.

Apology for my English

Mr. Dark
07-02-2009, 05:22 PM
well if not wisely

Olga4real
07-15-2009, 02:18 PM
well if not wisely

What do you mean, Mr. Dark?

Nick Capozzoli
07-15-2009, 11:41 PM
[/I]
First of all I am very skeptical about the existence of love, the seeming love that is so shallow, superficial. Of course parental love seems profounder by comparison. This love is natural...

Animals seem to love,and dogs show unexceptionable love for their masters. Is it pure? Maybe it is their dependency.

Love in animals is instinctive.

Even humans' love is also a kind of instinctive behavior...

Is love biological and psychological?...That said, all I feel is whether animals or humans our love is conditional and instinctive.

A lawyer would say that your question is "compound," which means it consists of many different questions, and needs to be divided into parts that can be answered separately.

I'll assume that there is "love." It's an emotion that may be hard to define, but is nonetheless an emotion that most of us humans have experienced. I don't want to get into a philosophical discussion about love in general, and I would like to limit my comments to a simpler question: Do non-human animals experience something akin to what we humans experience as love, or indeed anything like what we humans call "emotions?"

Darwin wrote a wonderful book about the expression of emotions in animals, and he deals with many of the ideas you mentioned. There is a lot of scientific literature that deals with the biological bases of emotions, and a lot of it deals with neurophysiology. An even more basic question would be Are non-human animals "conscious," i.e., are they "aware" and can they "think?"

That is really a tough nut to crack, because, without verbal language ability, an animal cannot effectively communicate what it is feeling or thinking. Placing chimps and cetaceans aside for the moment, we cannot know what most other animals "think" except by observing their behavior.

Nick Capozzoli
07-16-2009, 12:19 AM
What about animals, well I have two pets (cats), used to have dogs as well. It would be exaggeration to say that they love, but I am certain they are able to feel some kind of attachment toward their owners.

Apology for my English

Your English is fine.

Anyone who's lived with pet cats or dogs knows that they feel "some kind of attachment" towards us. My cats have seemed a bit more "aloof" or "inscrutable" than my dogs but it seems to have been more a matter of the degree of "emotion." I have no idea what my pets have really been "feeling" (as compared to say a human relative or friend), but I'm pretty sure they are able to feel "bad" in response to pain, thirst, hunger, and lack of companionship. They feel "better" when they are given relief of these negative experiences. Dogs, in particular, are social animals, and seem to need companionship. I'm still not sure how much cats need companionship.

A few years ago a friend of mine who had a dog (a chocolate Labrador) died at home and was not discovered until about 10 days later. The firemen broke into the house because of complaints of barking and found his dog, emaciated, whimpering in a corner of the room. The dog apparently was starving. He apparently didn't do what a starving carnivore "should" have done, namely take a few bites from his poor dead master... I don't know what the Lab was "thinking," and I wouldn't want to "anthropomorphize" the dog's behavior too much. Nonetheless, I suspect that the dog "felt" something loke what we would call in humans "sadness." Whatever the dog felt, it was enough to prevent his own feelings of hunger from making him eat his master's corpse.:alien:

Nick Capozzoli
07-16-2009, 12:20 AM
[/I]
First of all I am very skeptical about the existence of love, the seeming love that is so shallow, superficial. Of course parental love seems profounder by comparison. This love is natural...

Animals seem to love,and dogs show unexceptionable love for their masters. Is it pure? Maybe it is their dependency.

Love in animals is instinctive.

Even humans' love is also a kind of instinctive behavior...

Is love biological and psychological?...That said, all I feel is whether animals or humans our love is conditional and instinctive.

A lawyer would say that your question is "compound," which means it consists of many different questions, and needs to be divided into parts that can be answered separately.

I'll assume that there is "love." It's an emotion that may be hard to define, but is nonetheless an emotion that most of us humans have experienced. I don't want to get into a philosophical discussion about love in general, and I would like to limit my comments to a simpler question: Do non-human animals experience something akin to what we humans experience as love, or indeed anything like what we humans call "emotions?"

Darwin wrote a wonderful book about the expression of emotions in animals, and he deals with many of the ideas you mentioned. There is a lot of scientific literature that deals with the biological bases of emotions, and a lot of it deals with neurophysiology. An even more basic question would be Are non-human animals "conscious," i.e., are they "aware" and can they "think?"

That is really a tough nut to crack, because, without verbal language ability, an animal cannot effectively communicate what it is feeling or thinking. Placing chimps and cetaceans aside for the moment, we cannot know what most other animals "think" except by observing their behavior.

Mathor
07-17-2009, 05:53 PM
I think it certainly depends. Some animals are purely instinctual to the point that love is kind of beyond their imagination (i.e a snake,ferret), though for instance my dog will cry when I am not there. He doesn't want affection from people, he wants affection from me. I'll go to school and leave him with my friends, and they'll love on him all day but he'll cry. And when I finally get home he acts like a baby that got lost in the mall or something. Admittedly, this dog in question is very needy, and not all dogs express themselves in this way, but my dog is super super sensitive. Also if I show affection to other people he gets jealous and will start to cry and then try to push those people away from me. So I think definitely some animals can love as deep or deeper than humans, but it depends on the animal and the situation.

Mr. Dark
07-28-2009, 05:28 PM
What do you mean, Mr. Dark?

I'm sure many animals can understand affection, but it's difficult to say whether they have loving relationships as complex as humans. That and I was paraphrasing Shakespeare.

ktm5124
07-28-2009, 09:47 PM
well if not wisely

I think animals love very wisely -- they love you if you treat them well.

If there is any such thing as unwise love, it belongs with humans. Only a human being would fall in love with a teen idol they have never met, or a Hollywood actor who turns out to be shallow, or the prom queen just for her looks. But a dog's love has everything to do with how you treat the dog.

In fact, a loyal dog would be the last creature to pull an Othello ;-) Even if you're half a Desdemona to him.

I also don't see the basis for thinking that human beings are superior to all other animals. Sure, we have a greater intellect, as well as tools and civilization, but I cite Virginia Woolf -- what is the brain compared with the human heart? If we are to measure a being by their capacity for love and affection then are we necessarily the supreme animal? Personally, I have known no person as loyal as a well-raised dog. There are dogs that would risk their life for you in a way that only a firefighter could match.

Nick Capozzoli
07-28-2009, 11:46 PM
I think animals love very wisely -- they love you if you treat them well...

...a dog's love has everything to do with how you treat the dog...

In fact, a loyal dog would be the last creature to pull an Othello ;-) Even if you're half a Desdemona to him.

... There are dogs that would risk their life for you in a way that only a firefighter could match.

Yes and no, but I especially liked your last comment. I know a guy who was a dog-handler in Vietnam. Yeah, we had a few dogs who accompanied the troops in the bush...I guess they were the real "dog soldiers." Many of them apparently laid down their lives with the kind of behavior that would have earned decorations for uncommon valor in a human soldier.

But I wanted to say that just as there is a spectrum of behavior in humans, ranging from very good to very bad, so it is with other animals that have fairly evolved complex brains that allow for more than simple reflexes.

In general, both humans and these higher animals "love you if you treat them well," i.e. they are "good" and behave well if they are raised and treated well. We're all aware of fellow humans who just seem to be "born bad." Psychiatry labels these folk as "sociopaths" or "psychopaths." However, as anyone who has lived on a farm will know, there are also some animals that are "mean and nasty" despite proper upbringing. These are commonly referred to as "rank" animals. E.g., the dog that can't stop chasing and biting cattle, the stud bull that is too viciously agressive (even for a bull), etc. Unless the animal is too valuable, the usual solution is to take him out back and shoot him. We had a rank stud bull that was quite valuable and we tried to accomodate him to let him do what he was supposed to do, but he was injuring the cows so much (and was a danger to the ranch hands) that we had to do something. We couldn't exactly shoot him, so we got him into a squeeze shoot, castrated him, and let him loose to become a steer. He calmed down and became fairly docile, fatted up nicely, and was eventually turned into hamburger and a few good steaks.

It's hard to escape the conclusion that animals with brains complex enough to allow for complex behaviors sometimes suffer from what we can call "bad wiring." This results in human sociopaths and "rank" animals.:sick:

Homers_child
07-29-2009, 06:54 PM
I'm still not sure how much cats need companionship.

I think it's a case by case basis with cats. I have heard that many are aloof and don't need much interaction with their owners. My cat on the other hand, it's very loving and always has to be in the same room as the family. When a member of the household is missing, she always seems to be waiting up for them and will always run to the door to simply greet us. (In which case we have to scratch her belly :D)

Anyway, to say that my cat is doesn't have the capability to love is rather absurd in my eyes. It's seems very obvious that she can express love. Does she do with every person that comes into our home? No, she seems rather selective. I mean, what is 'love' to everyone? Is it only love if we can express in words how we feel about each other? If two foreigners spend their lives together and never spoke each other's language but they expressed their love through physical affection, would we say that that's not real love? Because that's how most animals of a higher intelligence tend to express it.

The example that I love to bring up in these cases is elephants. I remember watching a documentary on them a while ago that made quite an impression on me. I never knew how intelligent and emotional they are. Apparently, elephants mourn their dead. When a member of their group dies, they linger around the carcass for many days and sprinkle leaves and other such things on top of it. Often making noises that resemble mourning. You can't say that they didn't feel attachment and love towards their family members.

Do I believe that all animals can experience 'love' as we know it? Of course not. That would be stupid. Obviously animals that have a smaller and less intelligent, complex brain can't feel emotions the same as we do. Insects and small animals have much more simple and single-minded emotions. But to say that we are superior emotionally and no animals can relate to our feelings of love is equally stupid.

I don't usually contribute to these serious discussions but I thought I would throw in my two cents. :rolleyes:

plainjane
07-29-2009, 10:25 PM
I've had cats and/or dogs, and both at the same time, for most of my life, and yes, they love. Is it the same as humans? Humans don't even love alike, how can another species love the same.

I've had dogs that have mourned the loss of another dog, and cats that that have mourned the loss of another cat in the family, and some that don't seem to care a bit. They are as individual as humans. They have their likes and dislikes the same as humans, and express themselves just as individually.

I had a German Shepherd many years ago that was brought home by my then husband, when he proved himself undependable, the dog switched alliance to me [she'd bonded with him initially], and she would have nothing to do with him when we temporarily were together again. The dog had more sense than I did. :rolleyes:

Mr. Dark
08-16-2009, 03:57 PM
I think animals love very wisely -- they love you if you treat them well.

If there is any such thing as unwise love, it belongs with humans. Only a human being would fall in love with a teen idol they have never met, or a Hollywood actor who turns out to be shallow, or the prom queen just for her looks. But a dog's love has everything to do with how you treat the dog.

In fact, a loyal dog would be the last creature to pull an Othello ;-) Even if you're half a Desdemona to him.

I also don't see the basis for thinking that human beings are superior to all other animals. Sure, we have a greater intellect, as well as tools and civilization, but I cite Virginia Woolf -- what is the brain compared with the human heart? If we are to measure a being by their capacity for love and affection then are we necessarily the supreme animal? Personally, I have known no person as loyal as a well-raised dog. There are dogs that would risk their life for you in a way that only a firefighter could match.

Well I go to Mark Twain for that one.
"The fact that man knows right from wrong proves his intellectual superiority to the other creatures; but the fact that he can do wrong proves his moral inferiority to any creatures that cannot."