Karem Abdul Jabbar

[bazarov]

For those who like basketball; is this old fellow crazy or I am crazy? It was about non-american players in NBA:

Ibn: Who are your top ten international players and why?
KAJ: These are (ten) international players I respect:

* Pau Gasol (Spain) “the first big man from Europe that played on the front line in a way that impressed me and many other Americans.”
* Detlef Schrempf (Germany) “the first really good (international player) to come along.”
* Tony Parker (France) “Tony plays the game as if he was 100% American, not half.”
* Manu Ginobili (Argentina) “one of the reasons why San Antonio has won world championships.”
* Steve Nash (Canada & South Africa) “Nash has shown total mastery of the game.”
* Dirk Nowitzki (Germany) “he has brought alot of talent to his position.”
* Linas Kleiza (Lithuania) “a great 6th man off the bench”
* Marcin Gortat (Poland) “another fine front line bench player that gives the Magic great minutes.”
* Luis Scola (Argentina) “a great role player for the Houston Rockets.”
* Rudy Fernandez (Spain) “a great outside shooter.”

copied from http://www.interbasket.net/news/2669/2009/06/24/kareem-jabbar-top-ten-international-players/

[Virgil]

I'm not a basketball fan but if you're asking about Kareem Abdul Jabbar, he was definitely one of the greatest players ever. I'm not sure of the gist of your question. Are you questioning his judgement of European players?

[The Atheist]

If you mean Yao Ming not being in it, I'd tend to agree with Kareem.

Ming is just tall. NZ has the 175th best team in the world, with an average height of 5'11", yet I've seen Ming totally taken out of the game by aggressive play from a far smaller player.

If you're worried about Ming being out, I'm going to demand Sean Marks be included!

[bazarov]

I know who is Karem Abdul Jabbar :)

I am curious how is possible that Kleiza, Scola, Gortat, Gasol, Schrempf and Fernandez are on the list and Sabonis, Divac, Kukoč, Rađa, Stojaković and especially Petrović are not on the list?

Actually, I am shocked!

[JBI]

If you mean Yao Ming not being in it, I'd tend to agree with Kareem.

Ming is just tall. NZ has the 175th best team in the world, with an average height of 5'11", yet I've seen Ming totally taken out of the game by aggressive play from a far smaller player.

If you're worried about Ming being out, I'm going to demand Sean Marks be included!

Yes, but the actual nature of Yao Ming is far different, as he seems to have a significant cultural status outside of the U.S. - there is a reason that he was one of the most interviewed and discussed athletes around the time of the Beijing Olympic Games. In that sense, he seems to bridge a political gap through sports, and in a sense, a large upsurge in popularity of Basketball, a traditionally American sport, in China can be attributed to his presence.

Do we judge players by their overall score, or by their significance in shaping the game? That is the question, really - of course, basketball isn't my specialty (I doubt I even know all of the rules, and certainly know far less than the average 8 year old about the game), but the nature of sports themselves require one ask certain questions.

[The Atheist]

I am curious how is possible that Kleiza, Scola, Gortat, Gasol, Schrempf and Fernandez are on the list and Sabonis, Divac, Kukoč, Rađa, Stojaković and especially Petrović are not on the list?

Because KAJ doesn't rate them?

:D


Actually, I am shocked!

I'm never surprised when former sportsmen pick teams/people like that - they have their biases, same as everyone else. He might have tried to be a bit politically correct as well, because they're spread around.

I can feel your pain, though!

:D

Would you have Kareem in your all-time Dream Team?

[billl]

I'm not an NBA expert or anything, but maybe the thought process is something like this: the group he selected include some All-Stars and even a league MVP. The less famous/accomplished ones in his list are players who are of the same "generation" as Ginobili, Parker, and Nash. So KAJ picked a lot of guys who are part of the generation of NBA "greats" from overseas.

I think that maybe Bazarov is wondering about a lot of players who were quite good, but were (at the very least) "perceived" as not being All-Star quality. There was going to be some bias against them, just because foreign players hadn't established their place in the league over time (in the minds of most NBA fans). Those guys paved the way, but didn't get the attention that they would get playing now in a league where Nash, Parker, and Ginobili, etc. (and recent Olympic results) have made foreign greatness an inarguable part of the game.

So maybe all the guys Bazarov listed just weren't on the radar for KAJ in their time, while the lesser players on KAJ's list benefit from being more recent.

Of course Schrempf is the big exception that proves the rule--he was famous and on everyone's radar because he was really good and important on a high-achieving team, back when that was basically unheard of. After him, Kukoc (for example) looked kind of like a disappointment, what with Pippen and Jordan being there etc.

Anyhow, I'm not saying KAJ is right, but I think he does include 4 or 5 guys who'd probably make up the top 5 or 6 of most people's lists. With the exception of Schrempf, I think Bazarov makes an excellent case.

[bazarov]

Because KAJ doesn't rate them?

:D

Well, everyone of them is several class above any of them. I can provide some stats if you like :) Rudy great outside shooter? What was Petrović then? A monster shooter?



I'm never surprised when former sportsmen pick teams/people like that - they have their biases, same as everyone else. He might have tried to be a bit politically correct as well, because they're spread around.

I can feel your pain, though!

:D

Would you have Kareem in your all-time Dream Team?

Politic is irrelevant, no Orwell here, just objective fan view (if fan can be objective :D)
Would I pick him? I don't know, I never saw him playing; I am too young.

[bazarov]

So maybe all the guys Bazarov listed just weren't on the radar for KAJ in their time, while the lesser players on KAJ's list benefit from being more recent.

Of course Schrempf is the big exception that proves the rule--he was famous and on everyone's radar because he was really good and important on a high-achieving team, back when that was basically unheard of. After him, Kukoc (for example) looked kind of like a disappointment, what with Pippen and Jordan being there etc.



I don't believe he doesn't remember them, those were 90's.
Kukoč disappointment?Actually, Kukoč was the best 6th player in the league in time when Bulls were ruling the game. So, something like Ginobili today for Spurs.

[billl]

Well, over here (the US), there was a lot of drama about Kukoc. Pippen looked like a jerk, and Kukoc was sort of reserved about the situation. I think Kukoc was probably handling it the best he could, but in that environment (after all of the hype about him coming to the US to play on the Bulls--talk about pressure!) him being the best 6th-man wasn't seen as a great triumph by many over here. He is maybe remembered for all the controversy about him and his teammates more than his actual accomplishments. I always rooted for Kukoc, because Pippen seemed kind of wrong about things, and I was happy to see a foreigner doing well in the NBA. It's good for US sports (and for US society--JBI makes a great point about Yao Ming. He's doing as much for good US-China relations as probably anybody in either government, in my opinion.).

Like I say, I'm not an NBA expert. And maybe I overrate Ginobili (but he was an All-Star). I watched zero games in the last 7 years, probably, just some highlights and news articles. Sorry for being maybe even more ignorant than KAJ on this one.

[The Atheist]

Do we judge players by their overall score, or by their significance in shaping the game?

In the context of the discussion - KAJ's all-star, non-US NBA players, I don't see Ming's status outside of the NBA having any relevance whatsoever.

You're talking about an entirely different thing, and I agree with you on Ming's impact in Asia; he just doesn't fit into this discussion.


Well, everyone of them is several class above any of them. I can provide some stats if you like :) Rudy great outside shooter? What was Petrović then? A monster shooter?

Which all goes to show what I said - KAJ has stuck to his likes and dislikes, and being the peculiar character he is, I'd expect them to be a little off-beat.

It night also be part of the reason why he's never hit the coaching ranks.

Stats don't always tell the story, either. A good player can look great with a team which plays to his strengths, while a great player can be made to look ordinary by the opposite.


Would I pick him? I don't know, I never saw him playing; I am too young.

This is him well past his prime, but still too good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM2HIUR15s0

[Stargazer86]

Gasol is great. GO LAKERS!!