All the King's Men Group Discussion

[imthefoolonthehill]

I am currently reading this book... any thoughts or opinions? (I haven't finished it yet so plz don't give away plot)

[Robert E Lee]

I am currently reading this book... any thoughts or opinions? (I haven't finished it yet so plz don't give away plot)

This is Lee's brother.

I read it during Spring Break. Very good book but it gets sort of melodramatic in the end, and the reasons behind the Kingfish's assassination don't click with me. Maybe because I am cynical and paranoid as hell.

Anyways, I didn't buy the reasons behind the assassination.

Warren's philosophical musings annoy me quite a bit too. Are you reading the restored version? I read the original version where the Gov'ner is called Willie Stark, not Willie Talos.

You do know, however, that it is based on Huey Long? I doubt the accuracy though.

I would give the book *** 1/2 out of *****.

I am currently reading William James's Varieties of Religious Experience.

[imthefoolonthehill]

I am reading an old copy where he is called Willie Stark.

Anyways, I am wondering how many of you on this website have read this book.

I love the book.

I hate the plot (or lack thereof).

However, I absolutely love the style and tone of the writing. I wish I could find more authors who wrote like Robert Warren wrote (writes?). Does anyone know any other books by him, or any authors who write like he does?

(I also love the characters of All the Kings Men)

[nebish]

Like Faulkner, I reckon the best of the novel is the Cass Mastern journal section.
Jack Burden the narrator is a nasty piece of work - neither he nor his creator registers what a shallow self-justifying opportunist he is. In fact, most characters in the novel are unengaging.
As for the plot resolution, I agree with above posts - not the work of a great novelist (or perhaps, great novelists can make you overlook tritebess and melodrama..viz Dickens, Faulkner).

[chasestalling]

I am currently reading this book... any thoughts or opinions? (I haven't finished it yet so plz don't give away plot)

the books starts in the second person and that was unheard of in english literature.

americans have always done this to the brits, and they've come to realize that the english that they've exported to the world over is no longer theirs to lord over.

frankly, i don't think they care, but it makes for a good paper topic. so have at it.

[Sonofjohn]

Has anyone read All the King's Men by Robert Penn Warren? If so might you voice your opinion of the novel?

[Pecksie]

I haven't read it yet, but the movie has tempted me to buy it (haven't done that, either). Would you say the movie is good in relation to the book, or what? (I know that books are almost always better than the movies based on them, for the simple reason that you cannot condense 300+ pages in two hours, but then there are good and bad adaptations...)

[Emil Miller]

I haven't read it yet, but the movie has tempted me to buy it (haven't done that, either). Would you say the movie is good in relation to the book, or what? (I know that books are almost always better than the movies based on them, for the simple reason that you cannot condense 300+ pages in two hours, but then there are good and bad adaptations...)

Pecksie, I hope you are referring to the movie starring Broderick Crawford and not some ghastly ill-informed and liberal distorted remake starring some little creep like Tom Cruise or Bruce Willis, I don't follow the ridiculous peregrinations of the Wall Street controlled Hollywood of today. I haven't read the book either but it seems that it is a very powerful representation of the life and political rise of Huey Long, State Governor of Louisana during the depression of the 1930s (and, incidentally, there is another one well on its way). The movie is very close to the facts concerning Long's rise to power but is marred by an overly dramatic ending when a policeman calmly walks up the steps of the State Capitol firing a machine gun.

[Sonofjohn]

I have read the book, and am quite disappointed many others have not. The book is based on, as said above, Huey Long's rise to power. Although the book for some only goes as deep as politics, the book has much insight to offer. It is more of an inner conflict and battle of philosophy than the movie shows. It is extremely well written and rises above any other book I have read in English. Robert Penn Warren, the author of the book, was a scholar that attended the school Huey Long created, LSU. Warren as far as I am aware, was never directly close to Long but studied him quite closely, and was alive during the period Long rose to power.

The book does discuss interesting conflicts and even goes as far as to question god and the purpose of life. I would surely recommend it, but only if you are willing to study the book deeply. It is not only a novel of politics, romance, and human relations, but a novel that can and does for some change their view of life.

If you do indeed read the novel, I will be happy to discuss it with you, as I have yet to grasp the entire thing.

[*Classic*Charm*]

Pecksie, I hope you are referring to the movie starring Broderick Crawford and not some ghastly ill-informed and liberal distorted remake starring some little creep like Tom Cruise or Bruce Willis, I don't follow the ridiculous peregrinations of the Wall Street controlled Hollywood of today. I haven't read the book either but it seems that it is a very powerful representation of the life and political rise of Huey Long, State Governor of Louisana during the depression of the 1930s (and, incidentally, there is another one well on its way). The movie is very close to the facts concerning Long's rise to power but is marred by an overly dramatic ending when a policeman calmly walks up the steps of the State Capitol firing a machine gun.

Pecksie may have been referring to the 2006 version starring Sean Penn, Jude Law, Kate Winslet, Anthony Hopkins, et al (It had quite an impressive cast). I haven't read the book, but I've seen that version of the film and really enjoyed it. Actually, I didn't know it was based on a book.

[Sonofjohn]

Pecksie may have been referring to the 2006 version starring Sean Penn, Jude Law, Kate Winslet, Anthony Hopkins, et al (It had quite an impressive cast). I haven't read the book, but I've seen that version of the film and really enjoyed it. Actually, I didn't know it was based on a book.

There was also a version of the film, that came earlier, black and white. I saw the movie as well. It was ok, but didn't do the book the justice it deserves.

[Pecksie]

Pecksie may have been referring to the 2006 version starring Sean Penn, Jude Law, Kate Winslet, Anthony Hopkins, et al (It had quite an impressive cast). I haven't read the book, but I've seen that version of the film and really enjoyed it. Actually, I didn't know it was based on a book.

Yes, that's actually the one I saw...:blush: Actually I was drawn towards the TV set (which I usually don't approach) by the presence of Jude Law ;) but then the movie hooked me... Later I found out that it was based on a book and thought it would make an interesting read --- it has great reviews as far as I've seen. But, like I said, I haven't yet read it.

[papayahed]

There was also a version of the film, that came earlier, black and white. I saw the movie as well. It was ok, but didn't do the book the justice it deserves.

I read the book and saw the film in high school but really don't remember either. I've been trying to reread the book since I moved to LA but haven't been able to get going on it. (Coincidently I just met a politician who seemed to have just walked out of the pages of the book)

[Scheherazade]

Some of us would like to read All the King's Men during the next couple of weeks. If you would like to join us, get your copies ready asap, please!

From wikipedia:
All the King's Men is a novel by Robert Penn Warren, first published in 1946. The novel was inspired by the biography of Louisiana governor Huey Long; its title is drawn from the nursery rhyme Humpty Dumpty (see below). In 1947 Warren won the Pulitzer Prize for All the King's Men. It was adapted for film in 1949 and 2006; the 1949 version won the Academy Award for Best Picture.

[Dark Muse]

I would like to read this book, but I do not know if I can squeeze it in since I just started reading The Handmaid's Tale.

What is the deadline to have the book finnished by for the discussion?

[Scheherazade]

There is no deadline, DM. You can join in anytime you want/can.

Personally speaking, I am hoping to start reading sometime next week, though.

[Dark Muse]

Hehe ok well I will see what I can do and see if I can squeeze it in.

[imthefoolonthehill]

My poetry professor happened to study under Robert Penn Warren. *shrug* This used to be my favorite book in high school.

Which, I guess gives me an Erdös-style Penn Warren number of 2.

[Nightshade]

ookay IO do want to read this one, will see if I can get hold of it..:D

[Scheherazade]

Is anyone reading this one?

Shall we start reading it or wait some more?

[Dark Muse]

I am in the process of reading it

I am nearly finnished with Chapter 3

[Scheherazade]

I am in the process of reading it

I am nearly finnished with Chapter 3I will start reading it too then and report here as and when.

[papayahed]

I'll start soon.

[Scheherazade]

I started yesterday and found the first a few pages hard to get through; it is as if I am reading in a language I do not understand. Maybe it is the references; I am not sure. Though once the descriptions were over, it became "easier".

[Sapphire]

Just keep hanging in there - it really is a marvellous book :D

He gave you the impression of being a slow and deliberate man to look at him, and he had a way of sitting loose as though he had sunk inside himself and was going down for the third time and his eyes would blink like an owl's in a cage. Then all of a sudden he would make a move. (p. 24)

Don't you just see him?! It clearly defines what sort of actions this guy is capable of, what you might expect: the unexpected :p

[Dark Muse]

I started yesterday and found the first a few pages hard to get through; it is as if I am reading in a language I do not understand. Maybe it is the references; I am not sure. Though once the descriptions were over, it became "easier".

I found the first two chapters touture to read. I was just like OMG I do not want to read this book. Someone could not intentinally write something more boring. I had to rather grugigning force myself to continue, but it does pick up a little more as it goes on and gets easier to read.

[Scheherazade]

Finished reading the first part. I am getting into the story and enjoying the story but I find Warren's endless descriptive passages distracting. At times, I feel the need to go back and re-read to make sure where the story is exactly (past/present).

[Dark Muse]

I am just about done with Chapter 4 and I feel the same way. Some of the descriptions get tiresome and some I feel really are not needed they just take up pages of space. And some of his paragraphs feel like a giant run one scentence.

[Scheherazade]

Also, is anyone else burdened by Jack Burden's selfish aloofness? Or his willingness to be so. He possibly cannot think that he will keep his hands and his tail clean while working for Willie. The fact that later on wrote the book (he is the narrator after all) might be his attempt at redemption but it might come too late?

He somewhat reminds me of Nick from Gatsby but very hard to tell for sure at this early stage (for me).

[Dark Muse]

Jack is odd to say the least. There is no real explination for why he is with Willie to start with. Just becasue. He does not seem to have any goals of ambitions of his own or even really care much about anything. Though he does not seem to me like someone who has much of a moral ground either. I cannot see him caring if he keeps his hands clean or not really.

[Sapphire]

I am searching to find time to read this book again: I might do it next week.

However, I do remember that I got the thought stuck in my head that Jack cared more about "doing the right thing" than he was willing to admit. It is just something I remember and I can not be sure why, one of the reasons why I want to read it again ;)
Maybe it was because he just generally thinks that it might not matter wether he keeps his hands clean or not, but he surely sees that not keeping them clean would be "wrong". I do not know why he would have such a sense of justice/moral, but I remember he did care... or at least saw the difference.

I can not wait to start reading :lol:

[Dark Muse]

I really do not get the feeling that he does care that much in my reading of the book. He is pretty much willing to do anything that he is told to do and does not give much thought to it. Nor does he question anything that is happening or anything that he is doing. To me he seems more apathetic.

[Scheherazade]

Jack is odd to say the least. There is no real explination for why he is with Willie to start with. Just becasue. He does not seem to have any goals of ambitions of his own or even really care much about anything. Though he does not seem to me like someone who has much of a moral ground either. I cannot see him caring if he keeps his hands clean or not really.When they went to stay with Willie's father and also the Judge, I got the impression that he was pretending he wasn't part of Willie's clique, hanging outside etc. However, whether he likes it or not, he is.


[color="blue"]However, I do remember that I got the thought stuck in my head that Jack cared more about "doing the right thing" than he was willing to admit.I am not sure whether he cares that much but like you said he still does not want to be seen that way either (at Judge's house, for example). However, that does not stop him following the orders. Whatever goes on in his head, he simply cannot be bothered to react or show any outward signs.

I have just finished Part II and have to admit that Penn's writing is growing on me. It is somewhat like Steinbeck's, which I really enjoy reading.
But as the train pulls away, a woman comes to the back door of one of the houses -just the figure of a woman, for you cannot make out the face- and she has a pan in her hands and she flings the water out of the pan to make a sudden tattered flash of silver in the light. She goes back into the house. To what is in the house. The floor of the house is thin against the bare ground and the walls and the roof are thin against all of everything which is outside, but you cannot see through the walls to the secret to which the woman has gones in.Lovely.

[Dark Muse]

I have just finished Part II and have to admit that Penn's writing is growing on me. It is somewhat like Steinbeck's, which I really enjoy reading.Lovely.

That is probably why I don't care for him. I am still struggling through this book a bit painfully at times. I have never been a Steinbeck fan. I can personally do without pages and pages of needless descritpion. Some passages are kind of cool and some just drag on for days.

I also am not a big fan of Warren's use of repitition.

[Dark Muse]

Ok finally finnished reading this book.

[Scheherazade]

Way to go! :)

I am only half-way through yet.

Are you going to post a review?

[Dark Muse]

I thought about it, but if I did, I would not give a very flattering one. I have to say I really had to trudge through this one and over all I did not care for this book.

[Scheherazade]

You don't have to give a "flattering" review.

I have to admit that I am enjoying it more now and looking forward to reading it but I am rather busy these days (end of the term).

[Dark Muse]

Hehe yes that is true.....I might write up a review for it. There were a few things I found interesting within the book but I just did not care for Penn's write style much at all.

[Sapphire]

Well, I am on 3/4 now and really liking it again :D Funny, how people can look differently at this book. I guess it's all a matter of taste :) I can imagine Warren's writing style to be annoying, and Jack being an unlikable character - but to me his "I just watch and search for the truth (when asked) and let the world evolve"-attitude is quite interesting. And his views on history and time. And his thoughts, and the way his mind jumps around sometimes.

I like (cliche)sentences like

All of that, and me without a camera
That sentence could have been snatched from the 21st century :D

The place where Time gets tangled in its own feet and lies down like an old hound and gives up the struggle
It might be a well known way to say that time stands still there, but I still like it.

Which is nonsense, for whatever you live is Life
It keeps you grounded...

I can not really explain. When I look at these sentences "on the loose" they do not seem that good anymore. But in their place in the book I enjoyed them :)

[Dark Muse]

I do not really find Jack unlikeable, really I am neutral to most of the characters none of them really comeplled me either good or bad. Though Anne Stanton was my least favorite

[Sapphire]

Well, for a big part of the book you do not really see whether Jack thinks what happens is good or bad. He also seems neutral on it all - just being "the Idealist", standing back and observe...

I can not tell you which character I liked best ... They all fitted into the story. As for "who would you like to meet in real life", I guess the Boss and Jack could learn me something. I do not think I would listen to them though - I think it's better to read it in a book :lol: I am not sure I like Jack, I guess I do in the fact that I think he has an interesting view at the world. Yes, I think I like him.

The least likeable? I am very neutral on Anne Stanton I guess, can't say I like her but she seems the right girl at the right time. Maybe Tom (the son) or Mr. Duffy. I wouldn't like to run into either of them.

[Dark Muse]

Jack's view are interesting, and perhaps it is just a narrator bias so to speak that well I like him the most if I had to pick.

The reason I dislike Ann is becasue while I do not agree with the desisions that many of the others chars make, the other chars are just who they are, they do not make pretensees for themselves. Anne on the other hand wants to look down upon the rest of them and act high and mighty. She thinks she is so noble, but when it comes down to it she really is just a ho.

[Sapphire]

I understand what you mean: I was wondering about that too. If, for example, I would like Jack if the story was told from the Boss's point of view. Probably not. :redface:

And I am not finished yet. I recall what happens in the end, but need to read it thoroughly to be sure. I guess everybody keeps up appearances one way or another - just that most of them admit it in Jacks presence.

[Scheherazade]

Anne on the other hand wants to look down upon the rest of them and act high and mighty. She thinks she is so noble, but when it comes down to it she really is just a ho.You tell'em girlfriend!

:p

[Sapphire]

OK, done - I couldn't stand not knowing the end so I put some things of to finish this book :lol:

I can not say I think Anne to be using her body. It is odd though that she claims to have loved Willie and then finally, finally settles with Jack :confused: Not sure why that happened... maybe just convenience... I am not sure either whether she thinks she's noble. I know Jack says he thinks her to be, or Sadie says the way he talks about her makes her seem that way... We never do get a good look into anybodies head but Jacks.

I like how, when you read this book, you see how everything you do has consequences. Not only for yourself, but for everyone around you - even for people who are not around you.
Knowing the facts might give you power, but with knowing the truth and telling the truth comes a responsibility. It's not just the happenings, it's also how much you tell about it that brings the following happenings. :)

Live life, don't stand on the side and observe - that will proof to be impossible. At least it was for Jack.

[Dark Muse]

I think she ended up with Jack just becasue Willie endded up dead. And while I do not think she was using her body per sae. She has no right to judge Jack and look down on him when she is sleeping with a married man who already has another mistress. She no longer has the right to act as if she is nobel or to act as if she is better then anybody else. She is an aocmplice in an affair. She sure throws her high-mindeness out the window when it comes to Lucy.

What I do not like about her, is she is a hypocrite. Willie is a womanizer but he does not act as it he is on some great moral highground compared to everyone else.

[Scheherazade]

Finally finished reading.

I think Jack and Anne ended up together because they *had to*. They were the only ones who were left from that group and also they were supposed to be together years ago if they had not messed it up... but then again, they both had some growing up to do, I guess.

In my opinionn, the book is about politics only on the surface. There is a lot on about class division, invisible and unbreakable barriers and personal development than politics.

I find many parallels between this book and Gatsby. In both books, there is an attempt by someone who is from "wrong side of the tracks" to become "better" than what he is meant to be. They try to break the barriers; in some ways they manage to do that but neither of them is properly accepted and acknowledged. And they both end up dead.

In both books, we get a view of the morals of different classes and none of them casts a pleasant view, which is not surprising because we are all humanbeings.

Regarding Willie being singled out... I think he was singled out mostly because of his background and also simply because he wanted to do things differently (not necessarily because they were bad).

Just some quick thoughts but I have to say I have enjoyed the book more than I expected.

[Sapphire]

Well, I'm reading the Great Gatsby now and I am not far enough yet to tell about class - but it does seem to have the same perspective. I mean, the person telling the story is not the "main" character as in Nick/Jake vs. Gatsby/Willie. And well, Nick doesn't seem too troubled to come along with Tom to see his mistress, while thus being unfaithful to his niece :( He does get drunk though and is a bit sarcastic about it all...

It is definitely an interesting comparison.

And Dark Muse, where is it that Anne seems to think herself so noble? For I can not put my finger on it - when does she act like she's so much better than everybody else?

[Dark Muse]

The way in which she looks down upon Jack for working for Willie. She does not want to be with Jack becasue of what he does, and yet she always wants him to fix her problems for her. She gets all snooty with Jack for digging up dirt upon the judge but then she sleeps with a married man.

She acts all horrified when she finds out that the judge and her father were corrupt, and she always birades Jack for how he talks about his parents.

[Sapphire]

Thank you for explaining :)

I guess her being snooty about that did not impress me much, it must have slipped my mind :brickwall I do remember she did not want Jack to do it, but after all he did not really wanted it either - but for his search for truth, hoping with all his might it would not be true.

And yes, I do not think she is in any position to judge. Especially as she asks Jack to use stuff he found on her father on her brother. I actually think that is more horrid of her than her snootiness, she knows it will destroy her brothers ideas but asks him to do it so he will become a doctor director. I am still not sure why she wants him so much to be so... Maybe out of snootiness? Or is it really that she cares for her brother and wants him to have a good solid job? Or is it just for appearances?
I am not sure, not sure at all...

[Dark Muse]

Yes I thought that was a bit strange. Adam seemed content in his own way with what he was doing and would have been perfectly happy if he had just been left completely alone.

I also found it a bit ironic that she tells Jack she dosen't care about the money, she never cared about that, and yet she refuses to be with him becaue he does not have a solid idea of what he wants to do for work. She ends up with Willie Stark and she manipulates her brother into getting a cushy job. Yet she does not care about money.

That does not quite fit.

[Sapphire]

That depends. After all, Willie is not all about money. She might just have fallen in love with him for whatever reason a woman falls in love with a man. After all, she claims towards Jack that she knows Willie better than him, thus seemingly being emotionally involved. If she was just after money, she could have married any rich guy - wasn't one of her fiancées quite wealthy?

And for Adam and that job: I do not know why. Maybe she does not care about money herself, but does want to see her brother safe and sound. Seeing how he now is being taken advantage of by people who know he is the doctor that does not charge, she might want him into that position because she knows he will still be able "to do good" but in a more controlled manner. That does not quite fit either, but I really doubt whether it is only for money...

And her opinion about Jack not knowing what to do with his life. It might be she dislikes his lack of ambition? The fact that he has no drive in life? Willie certainly has that...

[Dark Muse]

And yet, Jack is not good enough for her to be with, but everytime she turns around Jack has to come to her rescue for something or other.

A part of me wanted Jack and Sadie to end up together. After he went out West I was hoping when he came back he would leave Anne to fend for herself from whee on out, but he still kept being her crutch and then shoved aside when he fullfilled his usefullness to her.

[Sapphire]

Well, Jack was living outside of Time, wasn't he? Maybe she just waited for him to step back into history/present?

Though I do admit - I did not want him to come back to Anne and your idea of Sadie sounds quite appealing :) Though Jack wouldn't have been successful enough for her, she was quite the career girl ;) They would have been an interesting pair. Anne was just always running to him for help... clinging to him almost. She did not even tell him she was with Willie!

[Dark Muse]

I kept hoping that Sadie would have finally had enough of Willie and Jack would finally realize there was no he and Anne and they would end up turning to each other.

Yes it is true that Jack did live very much in the past and he did not relate much to the present/future. Of course this reflects in his once dedication to the study of history, as well as the fact he seems unable to relate to Adam or Anne in anyway but through his memories of the life they use to have together.

Breaking away from the Anne debate. One of the things that interested me more in this story than the characters or the plot was the undercurrent of the idea of a sort of predestination which ran through the story. The little side-debates Jack had regarding religion. And the concept that was conveyed nothing could have happened any differently than it did. The choice of the characters was undercut in a way.

Willie once says to Jack that the reason why Jack is working for him is not because of the money or because he loves Willie, but simply because he is Jack. And Jack reflects the same about Willie, making a comment about how Willie does what he does just because he is Willie. This idea is mentioned throughout with all the characters in various different ways.

I think in a way it is for this reason that both Sadie and Anne end up with Willie. They are with him simply becasue they are who they are and Willie is Willie.

[Sapphire]

Yeah, "it is because it is and because the persons are who they are". I like that thought, and I think it's quite amazing how the writer can get away with that, without putting some thought of "destiny" in it. Though you do feel it has to go wrong with Willie, and somehow you could feel it had to be Tom who caused it... or catalysed it.

Coming to think of it, the father/son proves to be quite a big theme, with Tom/Willie, Adam/hisDad and Judge/Jack.

And Scheherazade, I just finished the Great Gatsby and I got another resemblance, or maybe rather a contradiction. As All the Kings Men ends with telling us not to focus on the past and live in Time, the Great Gatsby tells us we dream of a better future while the current draws us back into the past (and it is the past which is real and defines us). Or that is how I read it :)

And what is really striking is that both football players are called TOM!

[Dark Muse]

The thing that never really made since to me is just how Jack came to be Willie's right hand man as it were. It seemed that they only had one breif encounter with each other before Willie decided to hire him and made him instantly a confidaunt of his.

[Sapphire]

Well, Wilie never really needed a big reason. I mean, just the fact that a bartender does not serve him beer but soda made him allow that man a license...

Maybe he saw Jack was in need of some money, heard something good about him and decided to try him for the job to see what happened? Not sure what to do yet, but just seeing a familiar face from the past. Willie did not strike me as a guy who had kept a lot of friends. It is not too clear why he asked Sugarboy either.

But indeed, a thorough reason is not given. Maybe it's just all about first impressions ;) .

[Dark Muse]

Well we do not really see much past history on where Sugarboy came from but he is clearly the most loyal to Willie of the rest of them.

It just seemed odd that Jack would be given such a high posistion on so little, though perhaps it goes back to the "predestination" maybe Willie just know the kind of person Jack was, and that Jack couldn't do anything else but work for Willie.

[Sapphire]

Yeah, trying to find the part where Willie asks him to work for him. I think there was something there but I can not remember... hold on ;)

OK, I can not find the exact spot, but might it be the fact that Jack reported "the truth" in his column in the Chronicle? And that Willie heard one way or an other that Jack got fired or fired himself because he did not want to write in favour of MacMurfee? For Willie that could be enough of a reason to hire Jack and see where it went?! I mean, Jack did grow into his job - it wasn't at all defined... Though he did start of with quite a salary, $300 or such? Do not remember exactly...

[Dark Muse]

Yes I remember that Willie apporached Jack when he found out that Jack had lost his job. That could have been enough for someone like Willie to take him on. The fact that Jack did take a stance and did not just go along with what he was told.

I cannot recall how much he made, but I do remember in the begining Willie did not have an offical posistion for him. I recall there was some remark Willie made about paying Jack and just figuring out something for him to do.

[Sapphire]

Ok, I did find the right part, in my book it's page 108 - the end of chapter 2. It's indeed Willie who asks for Jack and who mentions having heard that he got fired (to which Jack replies he quit). It's indeed $300 he offers, and Jack mentioning to Willie that is quite a lot of money, as "This Governorship doesn't pay but five thousand". And as for the job
"Hell, I don't know," he said "Something will turn up"
So that's not a real answer, but it was probably a combination of Jack having known Willie from before he was a Governor and followed him a bit in his uprising, always writing straight columns in the newspaper... Something like that. :)

And well, somewhere in the beginning of the book Jack also states that reasons are often made up afterwards, while at the moment things just happen ;) And looking back at stuff, other reasons might turn up. It would be nice to hear his ideas on his employment, but I do not think that is gonna happen :lol:

[Dark Muse]

Reasons do not seem to matter very much within the book. They are shoved aside. Just like with Sadie and Anne, there is seen no development on how either of them got involved with Willie or why, it just springs up out of nowhere.

There is really no indication that either of them have become involved with Willie, well other than Anne had lunch with Willie once which she tells Jack about. But they both just happen out of the blue for the reader.

[Sapphire]

Yes, but isn't that what often happens in real life? I mean, do we ever find out all that is behind it? After all, it's written from Jack's perspective and he never tried or never did do find out.

From Sadie it is being said however, that she is used to get what she wants and knows how to get it. Jack really makes a point to show she'll always be OK, no matter what - he won't have to look after her as she can perfectly take care of herself. And somehow I read, maybe between the lines, that she does so partly by getting involved with mighty men. But that might just be my imagination, as I also thought Anne might be with Willie to convince him to choose Adam as director - until she confessed she really loved the Boss...
And even if they would have those reasons, it would still not explain why Willie gave into the adultery or how these relationships develop...

[Dark Muse]

While I never really disliked Jack I think Adam was really the only "worthy" character within the book. What happend to Tom was tragic for Lucy but I did not really care when he died.

And when the whole thing went down with Adam and Willie I sort of rejoiced when I found out that Willie got shot, not nessciarly becasue I truly disliked Willie even but becasue after Adam got shot there was a moment when Jack thought that the boss did not get it, and I just felt like oh no, don't tell me Adam got killed for no reason. I was going to be so dissapointed if Adam got killed but Wille was left perfectly fine.

[Scheherazade]

Do you guys think that Adam's death was symbolic?

He was the only half-decent, likeable character in the book but he had to get killed in such a way.

[Dark Muse]

It could have been symbolic in a way. Though Warren does not strike me as a highly symbolic writer.

Based upon the notions of pre-destination, I would say that there was no other possible outcome for Adam. He was too "noble" to surivie in the world of Willie Stark.

[Sapphire]

Hmm... Adam never struck me as likeable. A dreamer and a nutty professor maybe, but not more or less likeable than the other characters. And I understand from his nature that he had to act the way he had, but to just take a strangers word about your sister sleeping with your boss and assuming it was all to get you into a better position. That is not very decent in my eyes. Killing Willie seems like some kind of blood-vengeance or family honour thing going on. He does not even confront Willie about it, he just shakes his hand and shoots!

I do not see the killing of Adam (which is in some way defensive: a bodyguard takes down the shooter) as a symbolic way to show that nobleness is not possible in Stark's world. I think that is much better betrayed by the fact that Stark does his best to keep the hospital "clean", even putting Adam in charge while he knows the guy hates his guts. He does not succeed though, and has to give the order to Duffy - something he never wanted as he wanted to be known for good deeds, he's quite passionate about his hospital.

Jack makes Adam's death interwined with Willie's death in a way that I do not really understand. He seems so convinced that he and Anne brought the two together and brought them to their final destination. I really think he's trying to make too much out of destiny, seeing connections that aren't there. Though one might say that Adam's values collided with Willie's values (or at least the way they used those values in their business) and it was destined that there would be firework...

[Dark Muse]

But it is true that Jack brought them together. He was the connecting link between Willie and the Standons, he brought them into Willie's world, or Willie into thier world. It was learning of the corruption of the judge and her father which drove Anne to Willie and than it was Anne who pushed Jack into making Adam accept the posistion even as she knew that Adam would be devestated if he ever learned the truth about what she was doing.

Maybe Adam knew his sister well enough to know that it would be true, and he did confront her about it when he found out the news, and she could not deny it. I was glad the finally someone stood up to Anne and shattered her dillusion of herself instead of keep propeing her up on the pedestol as Jack alwyas does.

[MTA]

...and after nearly 100 pages, I am sort of flabbergasted. I'm reading the novel for a class I'm taking, and since the novel is always pegged as being political, I picked it up with some hesitation. I'm a political junkie, yes, but politics has always been something I've tried to keep out of my personal readings. The two can intermingle well, but I've read enough Zinn and Chomsky on the side to have my political cravings satisfied. I don't need novels preaching to me.

So far, Warren has completely shocked me with his lyrical style. Sometimes the prose comes off as a little dense, but not to the point where it is slowing me down by any means. There's so much complexity to both Jack and Willie already, that I am in no way surprised at the novel's thickness.

What are some of your thoughts on this novel? Have you read a work of literature that is classified as being overtly political, despite it consisting of much more deep and thought-provoking themes?

[dfloyd]

at least 30 years. I remember the general plot, but not all the nuances. For some reason(s) editors were hesitant to do any drastic editing to this book. I remember it as being overlong with some very boring parts. A good editing would have made it int0 a more readable book,

I've seen both movies and prefer the one with Broderick Crawford for which he won the Best Actor Oscar. The movie was much faster paced than the book. The movie with Sean Penn was not as good, although I admire Penn's acting generally, I watched the DVD because Tony Soprano was in it (I forget his acting non de plume). Much fatter and balder than he was in the Sopranos.