Milton, Satan, Paradise, ...discuss

[IWilKikU]

Ok, this thread started in Religilous texts like this ...:



Has anybody here read Paradise Lost by John Milton? I haven't, myself, but according to my textbook in it, Satan "depicts God as despotic and unjust in his treatment of Satan. God and his angels, however, reflect the attitudes of an absolute monarch and his court. Satan and his legions of fallen angels support the idea of independence and freedom of will and evokes sympathy in the reader." Might be worth the read.


Here in general lit I would like to talk more about Paradise Lost and less about evolution v. creation.

"Milton was on Satan's side and didn't know it" -William Blake

He certainly does seem to sympathize with Satan from the front. Satan is the first Character to appear. He fits the role of the epic hero, fighting against all odds: God and Heaven, the undefeatable force. His speeches are some of the most beautiful poetry in the English Language (Shakespeare included), he rules hell by his own merit, not divine providence, and the kicker... He takes council from his demons in hell. Now Milton was a great supporter of Oliver Cromwell and wrote pamphlets about how it was OK to depose a tyrannical monarch and even chop his head off, like Cromwell did to Charles I. The rhetoric that Satan uses in Paradise is almost identical to Miltons own rhetoric about Charles I. He was furious at Charles' refusal to call parliament and take council (one of the causes of the civil war in the first place), so Satan's contrast, calling on his demons for council is a stark contrast to Charles' (and God's) authoritarian methods.

If Milton was as devout a Christian as he claimed, why do you think he juxtaposed God and Satan with Charles and Cromwell? I'm only about half way through right now, is there anyone who has finished it? Does God seem justified in his authoritarian ways by the end?

[mono]

I had never made the connection between John Milton's depiction between God and Satin with Oliver Cromwell and Charles I, but I see your point, Kik.
I think Milton may sympathize with Satan in Paradise Lost about as much as Dante Alighieri's main character did in The Divine Comedy, but I think Milton further emphasized the subjectivity in the concept of Heaven and Hell:

The mind is its own place, and in itself creates
An Heaven of Hell, an Hell of Heaven.

His political views, especially those against Charles I, also shine through with the characters of Adam and Eve, being tempted by evil. In your associative analogy of attributing Milton's idea of Satan with Charles I and God with Cromwell, which I can agree with, may also comply with the followers of Charles I, corresponding them with the ignorant, naïve behaviors of Adam and Eve. Though Milton greatly disagreed and showed some sympathy with the rulings of Charles I, he felt no remorse in encouraging the execution Cromwell carried out, which, in his writing, may correspond to Satan rejected back into Hell, and Adam and Eve being punished.

[IWilKikU]

Also in the begining of the first book when he's calling on 'the heavenly muse' to direct his pen, he says that he hopes to justify God's expulsion of Adam & Eve, suggesting that he may have thought it appeared to be unfair to begin with. I wonder if Milton wasn't harboring some heretical ideas somewhere in his head.

I'll eventually have to write an essay on Paradise Lost for completion of the course. I'll probably pick a topic along these lines. When that time comes would you like me to post it?

[mono]

Also in the begining of the first book when he's calling on 'the heavenly muse' to direct his pen, he says that he hopes to justify God's expulsion of Adam & Eve, suggesting that he may have thought it appeared to be unfair to begin with. I wonder if Milton wasn't harboring some heretical ideas somewhere in his head.
I see what you mean here, and never thought of it myself. As we both found that Milton certainly shared an odd sympathy for Satan, the fact would not surprise me if many readers rejected some of the rather liberal, 'heretical' ideas of Milton.
I wonder, could this prove as the poet's blunt analogy, hinting human's subjective perception of right and wrong that Immanuel Kant would later write? One could surely feel confident that if Adam and Eve had the same rationalization and judgment of God, which, in turn, they would lose definition as humans, they would not have succumbed to the temptations of Satan, nor from picking from the 'Tree of Knowledge.'


I'll eventually have to write an essay on Paradise Lost for completion of the course. I'll probably pick a topic along these lines. When that time comes would you like me to post it?
Actually, if it does not involve too much trouble, I would love to see your essay, whenever you finish it. I wish you the best of luck, meanwhile.

[IWilKikU]

will do, but were talking a couple of months as my other classes have more immediate engagements.

[crisaor]

The word sympathetic is misused in my opinion. Satan is in most of the parts of the book the leading character, and thus, it can't be despised by the author, or the story would be lacking. He makes it interesting by adding layers to the character (i.e. he's not simply the bad guy, there's more to it), but never does he "justify" his actions. The relationship Kik mentioned might exist, but I wouldn't consider Milton a blind follower of Cromwell, and much less the Devil.

On a sidenote, those who liked Milton's depiction of Satan, might be interested in checking out either Neil Gaiman's Sandman, or Mike Carey's Lucifer series.

[subterranean]

Wasn't Milton's support for Cromwell has something to do with the idea to restore the Christian based government in England?



Posted by Kik: "Milton was on Satan's side and didn't know it" -William Blake


I once read that William Blake and Percy Bysshe Shelley considered Satan as the hero in Paradise Lost, which lead to many critisism cause (the critics says) Satan doesn't have the "standard" quality of a "Hero".

[subterranean]

By the way, I thought I'd like to share some of the interesting illustrations of Paradise Lost by William Blake




http://www.pitt.edu/~ulin/Paradise/images/PL03.jpg

book 3

http://www.pitt.edu/~ulin/Paradise/images/PL04a.JPG

book 4


http://www.pitt.edu/~ulin/Paradise/images/PL06.jpg

book 6

http://www.pitt.edu/~ulin/Paradise/images/PL09.jpg

book 9

http://www.pitt.edu/~ulin/Paradise/images/PL12b.jpg

book 12

[IWilKikU]

Thanks Sub, those illustrations were amazing! I love Blake's illustrations. In fact, I like his illustrations better than his poetry, as his poetry w/o thier pretty pictures is somewhat lacking.

But Cris, I never said that Milton blindly followed Cromwell. Milton never blindly followed anyone, although he was blind :rolleyes:. He was a serious independant thinker and didn't let ANYONE tell him how to think or what to do. However he was Cromwell's friend and supporter during the Civil War. Evidently they had a falling out sometime during Cromwell's crazy conquests of the Atlantic Archepelago. But if you read some of Milton's pamphlet's (which I had to for class, but quite enjoyed) his political allusions in PL become SO blatently obvious that there is no way you can ignore them.

With Milton or any writer I strongly suggest reading biographies and getting a historical context of who they were and what they stood for, as it often provides further insights to their works. This is true even with people who say you shouldn't do that like TS Eliot. If you never read any biography you wouldn't know he was going for poetic depersonalization, and it wouldn't be as... Eurika ...to notice all the ways he writes poems not about himself... :confused:. Did I just make sense? I don't know.

Anyways, Milton... My Christian lecturer doesn't like the fact that Milton lionizes Satan, so he supports the idea that Milton made Satan so heroic and appealing etc. to dupe the reader, just as Adam and Eve were duped. It wouldn't make sense for Satan to be horrible and slimey and nasty, but to have 1/3 of heavens angels follow him in his fall. He MUST have had some appeal. But if you look carefully you will see Satan standing tall in the presence of his demon hordes, but sneaking and decieving when angels are present, rather than standing up and heroicly battling them as he says he will. What think you on that?

[mono]

As sub posted some paintings for John Milton's Paradise Lost, I thought to also share some illustrations done by Gustave Doré, who also made relatively popular sketches for Dante Alighieri's The Divine Comedy, Edgar Allan Poe's "The Raven," The Bible, and Samuel Taylor Coleridge's "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner."
Paradise Lost lies more at the bottom of the page:
http://dore.artpassions.net/

[crisaor]

But Cris, I never said that Milton blindly followed Cromwell. Milton never blindly followed anyone, although he was blind :rolleyes:. He was a serious independant thinker and didn't let ANYONE tell him how to think or what to do. However he was Cromwell's friend and supporter during the Civil War. Evidently they had a falling out sometime during Cromwell's crazy conquests of the Atlantic Archepelago. But if you read some of Milton's pamphlet's (which I had to for class, but quite enjoyed) his political allusions in PL become SO blatently obvious that there is no way you can ignore them.
Yes, what I meant is that he supported him because of a friendship, not because of a blind, irrational admiration. That way, his opinions should be separated from his works (from Paradise Lost, at least), because I believe there's no connection between the two.

It wouldn't make sense for Satan to be horrible and slimey and nasty, but to have 1/3 of heavens angels follow him in his fall. He MUST have had some appeal. But if you look carefully you will see Satan standing tall in the presence of his demon hordes, but sneaking and decieving when angels are present, rather than standing up and heroicly battling them as he says he will. What think you on that?
Exactly. People keep mentioning how "good" is Satan depicted, but there's a lot of "bad" traits to go along with it. When I reached the end, I didn't believe for a second Milton believed Satan to have any good, redeeming qualities, but quite the opposite. However, I did like the way he described the character.

[mono]

People keep mentioning how "good" is Satan depicted, but there's a lot of "bad" traits to go along with it.
I entirely agree here, but that Satan may unintentionally think his deeds seem evil; to him, of course, they seem good and just, even in comparison to God's deeds, which proves why he continued his antics throughout Paradise Lost. This, I believe, further emphasizes the subjectivity of perceptions of justice and overall goodness.
Another good example of this comes through a Mark Twain short story called A Stranger. Basically a group of young boys meet another young boy who claims born as the nephew (or of some relation) to Satan; thinking his deeds naturally good, he performs all sorts of evil commitments, but feels no remorse - a good story, anyway.

[IWilKikU]

When I reached the end, I didn't believe for a second Milton believed Satan to have any good, redeeming qualities, but quite the opposite. However, I did like the way he described the character.

Well, I havn't reached the end yet, and I'm still pretty enamoured with Satan. Maybe my sympathies will change by the end.

[crisaor]

Well, I think we should separate a couple of things here. I was adressing the issue if Milton regarded Satan in a good/bad way, in a moral context. Wether he belongs to one or the other, it bears little or no relevance to the liking or not of a character. Who doesn't have a favourite villain, or a despised hero? or both at the same time? The fact that I perceived Satan as an evil character didn't stop me from thinking he was interestingly portrayed by Milton.

[JulieM]

Milton - Paradise Lost Book
Hello - I resently came into possesion of this book John Milton - Paradise Lost - It doesn't look like it is in good shape, but it's still a hard cover dated in the late 1700 - would -anyone know if it's worth anything?

Thank you for your time
[email protected]

[Logos]

Hello Julie

Here is a link to ebay, I did a search for

"antique books manuscripts milton"

John Milton antique books on ebay (http://antiques.search.ebay.com/Milton_Books-Manuscripts_W0QQbsZSearchQQcatrefZC6QQcoactionZcom pareQQcoentrypageZsearchQQcopagenumZ1QQfgtpZQQfpos ZQ5AIPQ2fPostalQQfromZR2QQfsooZ2QQfsopZ2QQftrtZ1QQ ftrvZ1QQlopgZQQsacatZ2195QQsadisZ200QQsaprchiZQQsa prcloZQQsargnZQ2d1QQsaslcZ2QQsbrftogZ1QQsofocusZbs )

[JulieM]

Thank you for taking the time to give us the EBay information. Should have
thought of this ourselves but thought this forum would be the best place to
start.

Thanks again Logos.
Julie

[DacieJade]

How do u cite stuff off of this site??

[DacieJade]

who is the author of this site?? does anybody know??

[nutsa_777]

I have only ONE week to read Byron's "Caen" and Milton's "Paradise lost" amd then to compare the devil from "Paradise lost" and the Lucifer" from "Caen"... So I have to write an assay- comparison... I need it to pass a very difficult exam at University
Can anybody help me? PLEASE, I'll be so grateful... I study english but I don't know it so well to read and understand these two thing in a week without help...
so if you have any good ideas about the material please

[nutsa_777]

I have only ONE week to read Byron's "Caen" and Milton's "Paradise lost" amd then to compare the devil from "Paradise lost" and the Lucifer" from "Caen"... So I have to write an assay- comparison... I need it to pass a very difficult exam at University
Can anybody help me? PLEASE, I'll be so grateful... I study english but I don't know it so well to read and understand these two thing in a week without help...
so if you have any good ideas about the material please