View Full Version : Thoughts on Lizaveta
Psynema
09-08-2008, 06:27 PM
What's everyone's thoughts on Lizaveta getting killed with the old pawn biatch?
Obviously it makes him in the wrong and mainly drives his guilt, but in a way, did anyone feel it distracted from the issue at hand - ie his theory and conscience would've been put more to the test if it was only the pawnbroker, not an innocent bystander.
Without Lizaveta's murder, it could have been a more interesting test of will, but with her murder, Rodia and the readers, all know he's wrong and eventually deserves his fate...in some ways I think the novel becomes more about Lizaveta and an accidental or "un meditated murder" than the pre planned murder of the pawn lady for the good of man, and in a sense, loses a bit of steam...as interesting as Rodia's premise is, you really can't buy it anymore knowing Lizaveta was killed and kind of think, at least I did, that his theories are meaningless with Lizaveta a victim...why bother. To me it convolutes the plot a bit, but not to complain, as there are benefits to this as well, but just curious what everyone else thinks.
Enjoyed the novel, but also must add...damn it seems everyone knows or is related to everyone regardless of how far they've travelled...once coincidence after the other.
Gladys
09-10-2008, 07:15 AM
Raskolnikov, himself, seems almost to ignore Lizaveta 's murder. Why?
bazarov
09-10-2008, 01:54 PM
Americans like to use term: collateral victim.
She's death is irrelevant for him and his theory; she is replaceable.
Gladys
09-10-2008, 06:28 PM
But that's outrageous! Surely there's more?
As I read the novel, Lizaveta's murder was foremost in my mind.
Everything was very clean; the floor and the furniture were brightly polished; everything shone.
"Lizaveta's work," thought the young man.
Psynema
09-10-2008, 07:45 PM
Americans like to use term: collateral victim.
Her death is irrelevant for him and his theory; she is replaceable.
Is she?
Does he confess or torment himself if he didn't murder her?
bazarov
09-11-2008, 12:51 PM
Why outrageous? I mean, murder by itself is outrageous...
After killing them, he always says(in his monologues) that he killed old lady, never used term ladies. Like he didn't even killed her; her death had no effect on his ''idea''. Then why bother?
Psynema
09-11-2008, 08:19 PM
That's what I'm confused about...often feel it just convolutes the whole novel.
How much different would the novel be without Lizaveta dying...yet he barely ever mentions it in Rodia's thoughts/dreams etc.
Gladys
09-11-2008, 08:58 PM
After killing them, he always says(in his monologues) that he killed old lady, never used term ladies. Like he didn't even killed her; her death had no effect on his ''idea''. It's not that simple, as I think the following quotes will show.
Ch.20: Poor Lizaveta! Why did she come in? . . . It's strange though, why is it I scarcely ever think of her, as though I hadn't killed her? Lizaveta! Sonia! Poor gentle things, with gentle eyes. . . . Dear women! Why don't they weep? Why don't they moan? They give up everything . . . their eyes are soft and gentle. . . . Sonia, Sonia! Gentle Sonia!"
And,
Ch.24: "For Lizaveta. She was killed with an axe."
His nerves were more and more strained. His head began to go round.
"Were you friends with Lizaveta?"
"Yes. . . . She was good . . . she used to come . . . not often . . . she couldn't. . . . We used to read together and . . . talk. She will see God."
The last phrase sounded strange in his ears. And here was something new again: the mysterious meetings with Lizaveta and both of them-- religious maniacs.
Later,
Ch.30: But, strange to say, by the time he reached Sonia's lodging, he felt a sudden impotence and fear. He stood still in hesitation at the door, asking himself the strange question: "Must he tell her who killed Lizaveta?" It was a strange question because he felt at the very time not only that he could not help telling her, but also that he could not put off the telling. He did not yet know why it must be so, he only /felt/ it, and the agonising sense of his impotence before the inevitable almost crushed him. To cut short his hesitation and suffering, he quickly opened the door and looked at Sonia from the doorway.
And,
Ch.30: As soon as he had said this again, the same familiar sensation froze his heart. He looked at her and all at once seemed to see in her face the face of Lizaveta. He remembered clearly the expression in Lizaveta's face, when he approached her with the axe and she stepped back to the wall, putting out her hand, with childish terror in her face, looking as little children do when they begin to be frightened of something, looking intently and uneasily at what frightens them, shrinking back and holding out their little hands on the point of crying. Almost the same thing happened now to Sonia.
And,
Ch.30: "No, of course not. Here, take this one, of cypress wood. I have another, a copper one that belonged to Lizaveta. I changed with Lizaveta: she gave me her cross and I gave her my little ikon. I will wear Lizaveta's now and give you this. Take it . . . it's mine! It's mine, you know," she begged him. "We will go to suffer together, and together we will bear our cross!"
"Give it me," said Raskolnikov.
He did not want to hurt her feelings. But immediately he drew back the hand he held out for the cross.
"Not now, Sonia. Better later," he added to comfort her.
At the end,
Ch.39: Without a word Sonia took out of the drawer two crosses, one of cypress wood and one of copper. She made the sign of the cross over herself and over him, and put the wooden cross on his neck.
"It's the symbol of my taking up the cross," he laughed. "As though I had not suffered much till now! The wooden cross, that is the peasant one; the copper one, that is Lizaveta's--you will wear yourself, show me! So she had it on . . . at that moment?
Psynema
09-11-2008, 09:05 PM
I think your both right...he does regret liza, but it is a bit inconsistent and confusing to me, who's murder he truly regrets if not both...
I somehow doubt he confesses without murdering Lizaveta.
Also reading Notes From Underground after this, in retrospect, one has a really different viewpoint on his relation with Sonya...then again is it too obvious to connect the two and maybe should just be left alone.
bazarov
09-12-2008, 12:16 PM
Gladys, I agree with you; but we have to separate Raskolnikov before knowing Sonya and after Marmeladov's funeral Raskolnikov.
Before her, his idea shined like a star in Betlehem. After knowing her, he sees everything differently; death of both of them is wrong, not just Lizaveta's. He feels more sorry for her because he realizes she was really innocent and good.
Psynema, if I remember correct, Underground mentioned Sonya. But the thing is; did he really thought that or he said that because he knew Lisa would like to hear that?
Psynema
09-12-2008, 04:30 PM
Psynema, if I remember correct, Underground mentioned Sonya. But the thing is; did he really thought that or he said that because he knew Lisa would like to hear that?
Was it Sonya? He didn't mention anyone by name in NFU, but did say something about dying of consumption living in Haymarket...Sonya didn't have consumption but Katerina did...but then she wasn't mentioned to be a prostitute in CP.
Would be fun to see if there are hidden cross over characters elsewhere :D
Could Lisa be the girl on the Bench in CP early on in the book?
Gladys
09-12-2008, 08:37 PM
Before [Sonia], [Raskolnikov's] idea shined like a star in Bethlehem. No. The murder of Lizaveta, the idiot, was problematic from the first.
Psynema
09-12-2008, 09:59 PM
No. The murder of Lizaveta, the idiot, was problematic from the first.
The book the Idiot? Or are you calling Liza the idiot...
Man my whole thread is confusing :D :sick:
"bout to start Karamazov...after eating up CP and NFU. Heard the Idiot wasn't so good, but what's a good choice after Karamazov?
And oh yes, I'll read them all dammit.
Gladys
09-13-2008, 12:42 AM
Or are you calling Liza the idiot... I quote from Ch 5,
He already knew all about Lizaveta and she knew him a little too. She was a single woman of about thirty-five, tall, clumsy, timid, submissive and almost idiotic. She was a complete slave and went in fear and trembling of her sister, who made her work day and night, and even beat her.
Heard The Idiot wasn't so good I adored 'Brothers Karamazov' and 'The idiot' is as good, better than 'Crime and Punishment'!
bazarov
09-13-2008, 02:02 AM
Lisa/Liza is girl from Notes From the Underground.:lol:
You can't miss with Brothers or Idiot or Demons or...anything by Dostoevsky.
But Brothers Karamazov are the best, in general and in my opinion also.
Psynema
09-13-2008, 08:42 PM
I quote from Ch 5,
He already knew all about Lizaveta and she knew him a little too. She was a single woman of about thirty-five, tall, clumsy, timid, submissive and almost idiotic. She was a complete slave and went in fear and trembling of her sister, who made her work day and night, and even beat her.
I adored 'Brothers Karamazov' and 'The idiot' is as good, better than 'Crime and Punishment'!
Do you have every book's quotes on speed dial :D
bazarov
09-14-2008, 02:48 AM
Yes, good question! :D
Gladys
09-15-2008, 08:12 PM
Do you have every book's quotes on speed dial? :D If you can recall a keyword or two, this site makes quoting easy:
www.online-literature.com/dostoevsky/crimeandpunishment/
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