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WICKES
08-05-2008, 12:27 PM
I'm about to give The Canterbury Tales a go. Is it difficult? I know it will take a bit of time and effort- is it worth it?

I don't know much about Chaucer tbh. I mean, I know he is seen as the first great writer in the English language, but is he more than a mere stepping stone on the way to Shakespeare and the Elizabethan writers? Does his stuff possess intellectual depth and profundity, or is he just a bawdy comic writer?

stlukesguild
08-05-2008, 01:13 PM
A mere stepping stone on the way to Shakespeare?! Is Mozart a mere stepping stone on the way to Beethoven? Chaucer surely occupies the same stratosphere shared by Shakespeare and Milton. I firmly share the belief that for the English reader he should be read in the original... or as Pound put it, "Anyone who is too lazy to master the comparatively small glossary necessary to understand Chaucer deserves to be shut out from the reading of good books forever.

Whan that Aprill with his shoures soote
The droughte of march hath pereced to the roote,
And bathed every veyne in swich licour
Of which virtu engendred is the flour;
Wham Zephirus eek with his sweete breeth
Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the ram his half cours yronne,
And smale fowles maken melodye,
That slepen al the nyght with open ye
(So priketh hem nature in hir corages);
Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages,
And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes,
To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;
And specially from every shires ende
Of Engelong to Caunterbury they wende,
The hooly blisful martir for to seke,
That hem hath holpen whan that they were seeke.

Reading Chaucer may start out difficult... constantly referring to the glossary... but soon one catches the archaic spelling and becomes enthralled by the actual sound of it (you should read it out loud). Any writer must almost be jealous of this older form of English before it was standardized... when spelling... among other elements... was far more fluid. Chaucer's English is certainly as original as Shakespeare's... his use of neologisms and foreign words... even invented words rivaling the Bard... Joyce... Burgess and Golding. He certainly does act as a touchstone... if not stepping stone... to Shakespeare in the breadth of his "voice"... his ability to shift from the most high style... even absurdly, comically bad high style... to a earthiness or even a vulgarity as needed to convey his characters. He is also surely an inventor of marvelous characters whose personalities are conveyed through their manner of speaking... their digressions... as much as, or more-so than their narratives. His frame-story structure is essentially rooted in that of Boccaccio's Decameron... a group drawn together telling tales to pass the time. But Chaucer takes the idea further... clearly differentiating each narrator as a character by the manner in which they speak. Of course the Wife of Bath may be the most well-drawn character... but there is also the Miller with his marvelously bawdy story... and the avaricious Pardoner. Certainly read Chaucer.

PeterL
08-05-2008, 02:03 PM
Reading Chaucer is easier than some later writers. Although his language was peculiar, it makes sense. If you have read Shakespeare and some other earlier writers of English, then it will be fairly easy for the most part. Every so often there is a piece in The Canterbury Tales that looks completely foreign.

wessexgirl
08-05-2008, 02:45 PM
[QUOTE=WICKES;606296]I'm about to give The Canterbury Tales a go. Is it difficult? I know it will take a bit of time and effort- is it worth it?

Yes, it certainly is worth it WICKES. I haven't read him for a few years, but I loved him when I did. My favourite was the Wife of Bath. He is bawdy, but he's so much more than that. A fascinating man. I believe he had a crush on John of Gaunt's wife, if I remember rightly. I think he worked for JOG, (I may be wrong), who was extremely powerful. He does such a fantastic job of portraying these diverse sections of society on a pilgrimage, and shows up their foibles and hypocrisy brilliantly. The language may look difficult at first, but if you have a good edition, with a good glossary and footnotes, you'll soon get used to it, and I'm sure you'll enjoy it. I love to hear Chaucer read out loud, like Shakespeare, and your ear will soon become attuned. :)

WICKES
08-05-2008, 02:46 PM
Thanks guys. I liked the quote from Pound btw.


[QUOTE=WICKES;606296]. I love to hear Chaucer read out loud, like Shakespeare, and your ear will soon become attuned. :)

Thanks Wessexgirl. I have also ordered a CD recording of The Canterbury Tales. In a weeks time I shall be alone in the house for 4 days and I'm going to have a language orgy, with Chaucer, Shakespeare and Joyce's Ulysses blaring out of my CD player at full volume!


I firmly share the belief that for the English reader he should be read in the original... .


I absolutely agree with you. This would make a good thread actually. Here in the UK Shakespeare is constantly being dumbed down and translated into youth/street speak to reach 'the kids' (in the name of democracy presumably or in the name of some kind of postmodern 'there is no such thing as high art, it's all relative' bull****). It is idiotic and pointless. Either be prepared to put in the time and effort to read Hamlet and King Lear in the original language, or stick with cliche ridden Hollywood trash, daytime TV and Harry Potter. That may sound arrogant and snobbish, but it isn't really. I quite agree that most (not all, but most) people can read and enjoy Shakespeare, but it isn't easy. The problem is we are used to getting what we like at the flick of a switch and if we can't then we move on to something easier.

Jozanny
08-06-2008, 01:26 PM
I'm about to give The Canterbury Tales a go. Is it difficult? I know it will take a bit of time and effort- is it worth it?

I don't know much about Chaucer tbh. I mean, I know he is seen as the first great writer in the English language, but is he more than a mere stepping stone on the way to Shakespeare and the Elizabethan writers? Does his stuff possess intellectual depth and profundity, or is he just a bawdy comic writer?

It has been a very long time since I've read The Canterbury Tales, and although I sympathize with your questions Wickes, I am not sure what the preoccupation is with an author's place. There are certain degrees of consensus, but from there I think we're on our own. My sense is Chaucer leans toward bathroom humor, even toward the slightly scatological, but what allows him to put English Literature on the map is the humanism of his characters, characters we can still identify with today.

What I wanted to touch upon though, is my wavering over luke's faithfulness to originalism here--for this reason. Medieval English wasn't standardized, so even editors who try to be faithful to Chaucer's spellings, face problems making the tales accessible to contemporary speakers. My medieval text is in fact different than what luke posted, so, even though it hurts, I have some sympathy for publishers who try to streamline Chaucer into some kind of uniformity--not modern English, no, but comprehensible to today's students.

I don't speak middle English, after all. As time goes on, and we get farther and farther from Shakespeare, the same problem occurs, and in fact, is solved by adapting Shakespeare for a modern audience. Most of the great tragedies or histories are adapted with a modern political slant. Richard 3 as Nazi England, for instance.

Scheherazade
08-06-2008, 01:30 PM
Even though it has been about 15 years since I read Chaucer, I remember enjoying it very much in the way I enjoy reading The Decameron by Boccaccio.

stlukesguild
08-06-2008, 02:14 PM
Jozy is right that there are multiple versions of the Canterbury Tales. The work was never completed by Chaucer and there are numerous fragmentary manuscripts, none of which are in Chaucer's hand, based upon his original manuscripts, nor involved him. They are largely attempts to organize the various copies of portions into a logical whole. The version I have is the Everyman Edition edited by A.C. Cawley in 1958 from the best 15th century manuscripts. It is an edition commonly used by scholars and universities... but certainly there are alternative editions. I have never liked editions of older literature which used standardized spellings (a notorious flaw of Penguin books, I feel) for Chaucer, Spencer, Wyatt, Blake, etc... as I feel they lose something of the "color" of the original. But I have absolutely no use for modern "translations" because I find them unneccessary and bad at that.

mortalterror
08-07-2008, 01:06 PM
I don't speak middle English, after all. As time goes on, and we get farther and farther from Shakespeare, the same problem occurs, and in fact, is solved by adapting Shakespeare for a modern audience. Most of the great tragedies or histories are adapted with a modern political slant. Richard 3 as Nazi England, for instance.

I feel for you with Chaucer and all, but I hate most of the ways Shakespeare gets adapted to modern politics. While I own the version of Richard III you are talking about, having read and studied it in detail, I can't say that they are the same. About half of the original play had to be left on the cutting room floor in order to get that interpretation. This is only forgivable when you consider the liberties Shakespeare took with history when writing the play.

Like Sheherazad, I enjoyed The Canterbury Tales a great deal, but I was more impressed by The Decameron.

I hear that some writers went in and finished his story for him, and it was only in modern times that scholars have been able to weed out the imitators from the original. I'd like to read a copy with those imitators left intact. The misattributed works of Seneca and the Bible aren't any worse for not being by who they say they are and it wouldn't be the first time a second artist finished the work of a dead predecessor.

ballb
08-07-2008, 02:38 PM
Agree with respondents who urge you to read Chaucer in the original Middle English. It is difficult to begin with but is far from learning another language. Be assured that the ear gets attuned. Having heard a cassette of one of the Tales translated by Cogshill into modern idiom, I think much is lost in translation. Board the time machine and travel back to the 14 century to meet one of England`s greatest poets and story tellers. you won`t regret it.

Phangirl7
01-31-2009, 01:01 PM
We had to read an excerpt from this in school earlier this year and I kind of liked it. Not something I'd particularly want to read again.
P.G.7

fb0252
02-18-2009, 04:05 PM
"lordings", quod he, "in chirches whan I preche,
I peyne me to han an hauteyn speche,
And ring it out as round as gooth a belle,
For I can al by rote that I telle.
My theme is alwey oon, and ever was
Radix malorum est Cupiditas."
(avarice--love of money--is the root of all evil)

something to avoid, but Harry Potter and Disney. Cute:).

Lokasenna
02-19-2009, 05:44 AM
Read it - its well worth it. The Merchant's Tale had me crying with laughter the first time I read it.

If I may suggest (and assuming you haven't got an edition already), go and look up The Riverside Chaucer. It contains his complete works, and a helpful glossary on every page. It's one of the most used books in my collection!

Danik 2016
09-08-2017, 10:37 PM
Reviving this thread.

Found this link with the Cantembury Tales.

http://english.fsu.edu/canterbury/

Who wants to read and discuss the poems?

I´m going to start with The Merchant´s Tale.

YesNo
09-09-2017, 11:44 AM
Sound's like a good idea. I'll try reading that this evening.

Danik 2016
09-09-2017, 07:44 PM
Me too. I´m curious about that tale.

YesNo
09-10-2017, 07:26 AM
I've started the tale but I haven't finished it. However, I enjoy the translation by Ronald L Ecker and Eugene J. Crook. I don't know if they translated it well or not, but I enjoy reading their iambic pentameter. It makes me wonder if Chaucer was using this meter or if he was using a variation on the older alliterative meter found in Beowulf. Regardless the translation sounds nice and I would almost like to hear an audio of it.

Danik 2016
09-10-2017, 07:49 AM
I haven´t finished it either yet.

Here one can compare the modern version with the original Chaucer verses(with glossary).

http://www.librarius.com/cantales.htm

I am also going to revive the Decameron thread. I wonder if one of this authors influenced the other.

YesNo
09-12-2017, 07:36 PM
I finished it. I am not sure if this would be considered a rom-com or not. It is humorous. So it probably is. There is also Pluto and Prosirpina arguing the issue on the side. I suspect January got what he deserved. Here's a couplet I enjoyed for its sound if nothing else:

"Deceived when blind is no worse than to be
A man who's been deceived when he can see."

Danik 2016
09-13-2017, 09:14 AM
I read it too, the kind of humour reminds me of the Decameron. I don´t know, what a ron-con is. What caught my attention was, that though the perspective is male, it shows how the young women, who were married to someone without having their wishes consulted and then were kept in the house almost as sexual slaves, got their own way as good as that was possible :).

YesNo
09-13-2017, 10:06 AM
A rom-com is a romantic comedy. Usually there's an unambiguous happy ending for the main couple. I would expect the main couple here to be May and Damien not May and January. The story seems to be from a male perspective. January is an idiot and Damien ends up proving it. I don't know what May thinks of this arrangement. She goes along with both of them. Perhaps there is someone else she likes besides either of these two?

Danik 2016
09-13-2017, 11:57 AM
I think May favours Damien. And it just occured to me that the name Damien is a variant of :devil:.

What about reading the tale about of the woman of Bath next?

YesNo
09-14-2017, 10:25 AM
I checked and it looks like the name "Damien" might be related to "demon". It supposedly also means "to tame". There is also a Saint Damien. After posting yesterday, I wondered if The Merchant's Tale could be considered erotica? I think you are right that May likes Damien, but I think she also likes January.

The Wife of Bath's tale is one of my favorites. I know the story, but I like the sound of these translations. I'll try to read that tonight.

Danik 2016
09-14-2017, 12:47 PM
I don´t know or I don´t remember the story, what today amounts to the same.

About those tales being considered erotica, possibly yes, specially as thei were inspired by the Decameron. But even the Decameron doesn´t consist only of erotic stories. There are some very moral tales like the story of Griselda and the one about the three rings.

YesNo
09-15-2017, 09:26 AM
I am half way through the Wife of Bath's prologue.

Here are a few lines to tempt others to read this translation (lines 107-112): http://english.fsu.edu/canterbury/wifepro.html

But Christ, who of perfection is the well,
Did not bid everyone to go and sell
All that he had and give it to the poor
And thereby follow him; no, this was for
The ones desiring to live perfectly--
And by your leave, my lords, that isn't me.

Danik 2016
09-15-2017, 09:54 AM
That sounds promising. I´ll start to read it this evening. I`ll see if I can unearth my book with the tales that is buried somewhere in my shelves.

YesNo
09-17-2017, 03:23 PM
I haven't read any further. I am using the translation you linked to earlier.

Danik 2016
09-17-2017, 09:57 PM
I had a rather agitated weekend and haven´t read the story yet. But I haven´t forgotten about it, Yes/No. I will post a comment as soon as I have time to read it.

YesNo
09-19-2017, 06:45 PM
I just finished the introduction where the wife of Bath describes her husbands. Her actual tale is next.

Danik 2016
09-20-2017, 09:41 PM
I just found out that I have already read the tale of the wife of Bath.
I was looking if there were any stories in English by Cortázar.
Cortázar is a master in combining phantastic and realistic elements.

YesNo
09-25-2017, 09:57 AM
Cortazar sounds interesting. A short story online could be translated by Google. I would also be interested in online audios of these stories.

Danik 2016
09-25-2017, 10:36 AM
I miss the combination of written and audio record you have on your blog here on Litnet.

Well, here is a translation of the tale "Cefaleia" by him.

https://www.tor.com/2014/09/03/headache/

And "Axolotl":

http://southerncrossreview.org/73/axolotl.html

YesNo
09-26-2017, 09:04 PM
They sound interesting. I've heard of the author. I'll read them later this evening or tomorrow morning. Thanks for finding them!

YesNo
09-27-2017, 03:06 PM
I read "Axolotl". There is little action except the the main character turns into an axolotl which is fantastical. They are cute. I watched a YouTube video on them and I can see how someone would find them fascinating.

Danik 2016
09-27-2017, 09:48 PM
I like the story. I think it may also be about the identification with a creature that´s very different.

I never saw a real axolotl. There is something unprotected about the one in the picture.

YesNo
09-29-2017, 10:08 AM
I liked the story also. I can see how one might identify with them more than with other primates as the story suggested. There is something about the eyes and the movements of the arms and legs that seem human-like or fairy-like. Although the story had a conclusion that I don't think can happen, the empathy leading up to that conclusion seems real.

Danik 2016
09-29-2017, 10:41 AM
I think the conclusion is phantastic. I like how Cortazar blends the real and the phantastic in his stories.

I found this links with stories by Cortazar and Borges. Unfortunately it is in Spanish:

https://culturacolectiva.com/letras/100-cuentos-de-julio-cortazar-y-jorge-luis-borges/

Some of my favorite Cortazar short stories: Casa tomada, Lejana (somewhat similar to Axolotl),Omnibus, Continuidad de los parques, Cartas de mamá, Las babas del diablo, La salud de los enfermos.

YesNo
09-30-2017, 06:13 PM
La salud de los enfermos sounds interesting. I'll see if I can make sense out of it without too much reference to Google Translate.

Danik 2016
10-01-2017, 08:21 AM
You love a paradox, Yes/No!

YesNo
10-01-2017, 09:16 AM
So far the story is interesting and the title does seem paradoxical. Is there any copyright issues with creating translations? Perhaps not, I don't know.

Danik 2016
10-02-2017, 10:37 PM
I just remembered a German film, who stages a similar situation as Cortazár's story.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/good_bye_lenin/

I notice we have strayed somewhat from the Canterbury Tales. If we go on with Cortazar I will open a new thread for him.

YesNo
10-02-2017, 10:59 PM
I would be interested in a new thread on Cortazar. I have only read two stories by him so far. I noticed that the library has two collections of stories by him in English.

Good Bye, Lenin is in the library, but checked out.

Danik 2016
10-03-2017, 08:10 PM
For reading facility I´m posting the link again:

https://culturacolectiva.com/letras/100-cuentos-de-julio-cortazar-y-jorge-luis-borges/

kev67
01-03-2018, 04:41 PM
I started reading Canterbury Tales. I was a bit surprised. 1) It is the modern English version by John Dryden. I suppose I should have checked before buying it. I may have had to work too hard at understanding Mediaeval English to enjoy it in the time I want to allocate to it. Reading some of the above comments makes me feel like I opted for the 5K fun run rather than the half-marathon, but TBF, I did not bother reading Anna Karenina in Russian. 2) I probably should have expected this, but I didn't, it's all in verse. It all reminds me of Andrew Marvell's poem, To His Coy Mistress:

Had we but world enough and time
This coyness lady would be no crime
We would sit down and think which way
To walk and pass our lon love's day
Te tum te tum te tum te tum
Te tum te tum te tum te tum

Pages and pages and pages of it. It's pretty good rhyming and quite pleasant so far.

Edit: Actually, it is not quite like that poem because the verse is ten syllables per line. The old iambic pentameter I suppose.