August / Japan Reading: Norwegian Wood

[Scheherazade]

http://www.observer.com/files/imagecache/article-teaser/files/Lotto-Murakami1V.jpg

In August, we will be reading Norwegian Wood by Murakami.
Synopsis:

When he hears her favourite Beatles song, Toru Watanabe recalls his first love Naoko, the girlfriend of his best friend Kizuki. Immediately he is transported back almost twenty years to his student days in Tokyo, adrift in a world of uneasy friendships, casual sex, passion, loss and desire - to a time when an impetuous young woman called Midori marches into his life and he has to choose between the future and the past.

Please post your thoughts and comments in this thread.

[Amylian]

I reached chapter 4 and planning on reading it tonight. I have got to admit that, although I had read many great books in the past, I am still blind for not knowing and experiencing such a great writer.





==It may be a spoiler==
Up till now, though Toro Watanabe determined to live in isolation, he still meets lots of people and gets to know them, which actually breaks his determination or promise that he would live alone. I mean, he may unwillingly and unknowingly starting to be socially connected more than he ever was. What do you think?

[papayahed]

In chapter 1 Toro is remember the day in the field and the well, what's that all about?

[Amylian]

In chapter 1 Toro is remember the day in the field and the well, what's that all about?

The way I understand it, it was about Toro's reminiscenes in that field and his blurry memories. He is asked by Naoko not to forget that they were there, but the moment Toro's recollecting all the memories, he seems he has forgotten the very details. As he mentioned, "Memory is a funny thing" in page 6.

[papayahed]

Any significance to the well that nobody can find until they fall into it?

[Amylian]

Any significance to the well that nobody can find until they fall into it?

As far as I am concerned, I think "the well" signifies something "unknown" and "deep". The way I see it, it might be a reference or "foreshadowing" to Toro Watanabe's life. As later in the novel, he drowns deeper and deeper into the "unknown" as he keeps moving forward. However, no one would hear him if he falls and only be left there, in the middle of the "well", hearing and watching other go on with their lives and he, down there, alone with loneliness. Now that may not be the perfect explanation I have, but I am sure someone better than me will clarify it soon; I need to know, too.

[lugdunum]

For those who like me weren't quick enough to get Norwegian Wood from their libraries (and have got beaten to it by other LitNet members or Murakami fans) I have found an online version here:
http://sparkplugged.net/2008/04/read-murakamis-norwegian-wood-online/

Ps: I'm not sure that I'm allowed to post this kind of links (for copyright issues) so if not, please delete my post :)

[Scheherazade]

Finished Becoming Madame Mao today and started reading this one.

Thought I would just read a few pages to get a feeling what it was all about but I simply could not put it down and ended up reading the first three chapters.

I am enjoying it very, very much. Murakami's style is absolutely amazing and the story is unfolding so smoothly.

Re. well> I wonder if it symbolizes some of kind of depression we all can go through... Kizuki obviously had some problems no one knew about... And Toru and Naoko as well. Actually, thinking about it now, maybe all the characters live in their own wells in a way; the kind of wells that outsiders do not realise even that they are there.

[Niamh]

Going to pick this up tomorrow.

[Niamh]

Went into town today to buy N.W. Do you think i could find it? Nooooooooo! So now i have to order it from Amazon. I hope to join in soon!!!

[mickitaz]

Woo hoo.. I picked mine up this afternoon (along with a new pair of much needed reading glasses). I am all done with work for now.. Getting ready to curl up with a cup of tea and dig in.

Hey Niamh.. I got mine at Borders... do you have one near you?

[mickitaz]

Okay, so I am well into the book by now; having read 150 pages. I am enjoying the reading so far. Murakami's writing is very fluid. I especially find interesting his choice of words for describing a particular scene; where others scenes he simply commentates on general, brief observations.

In reference to the question of the well, I believe it is the hospital's "pink elephant". The well, I think, is a way for the patient's to explain a member's "disappearance". In other words, I think when a patient commits suicide, they use the well as a metaphor; rather than admit therapy failed.

I find Turo's and Naoko's relationship interesting. While Turo expresses care, concern (maybe even love) for Naoko; I feel that in reality, perhaps he is not really in love with her per se. Given the circumstances of Kizuki's death, I feel the two were/are bound by circumstances.

I feel Turo's way of dealing with Kizuko's death, and other "friendships" thereafter is perplexing. He seems to detach himself from those around him, merely existing; waiting for an end to something. He never really seems to build a relationship with any one person. While he will enter conversations, there is no real emotion attachment to the relationship he builds. The same goes for his relationship with Naoko. For some reason, I feel there is this wall between the two, where emotion is void. Yes, he says he cares. But somehow, his actions seem to say otherwise.

Naoko on the other hand, seems to be the opposite of Turo in terms of emotional attachment. This is the reason why she observes herself as "twisted". Then again, given her experience with her sister committing suicide and Kizuki...one can hardly blame her. Even with her relationship with Kizuki, it seems there was this detachment emotionally. While they certainly had a connection and a deep freindship; I think romantic love was absent from their relationship.

Reiko is another interesting character. While I am at the part where she is revealing "her story"; once again, she seems to be the go between for Turo and Naoko. The two can't seem to exist together without a third person. First, it was Kizuki, now Reiko. It is almost as is their relationship is co-dependent on a third party. This is intriguing.

Reiko on the other hand, seems to be co-dependent on a whole other plane. From the time she was little, her drive in life was to exceed at other's expectations of her. While she did succeed, her mental breakdown prior to her major recital indicates there was something else going on. I also find the story on how she met and married her husband quite intriguing. While she was passionate about her piano, she was "fond" of her husband.

Perhaps it is different with Japanese society, and what they place their emphasis on; in terms of what is important. That I am not sure. I have a premonition on what will happen with Naoko and Midori. I feel if anyone should be in the hospital, Turo should. He doesn't seem to be addressing Kizuko's death emotionally. This detachment is also seen in his discussion on his major in the university; and his lack of wanting to aspire to a specific goal.

I am thoroughly enjoying this book so far. The relationships are interwined in such a way I have not experienced. I look forward to how the book will end.

[HerGuardian]

Hi everyone.

The story flows so smoothly that even a very slow reader like me would finish 110 pages in 3 days. I feel all the time urged to keep reading to see what is there next. I liked the story and the way the characters are presented. Also, there's this paragraph by Midori when she described how she hates dying because of long sickness as all her family has gon ethrough.


"That's the kind of death that frightens me. The shadow of death
slowly, slowly eats away at the region of life, and before you know it
everything's dark and you can't see, and the people around you think
of you as more dead than alive. I hate that. I couldn't stand it."

Though death in itself is so dark and harsh, the way it's described here made it darker and harsher.

[eyemaker]

Oh man! I missed the last copy from the bookstore near us! I hope to join in, later perhaps...

[mickitaz]

There is a phrase on page 25 which I feel sums up the them of the book:
"Death exists, not as the opposite but as a part of life."

As each character progresses, we see how death has touched them; and how they adapted to the change. Turo seems to just accept it, and help those around him to cope. Naoko seems to take it on a personal level, to the point where she cannot separate herself from that identity. Midori appears to be afraid.

[Amylian]

I feel Turo's way of dealing with Kizuko's death, and other "friendships" thereafter is perplexing. He seems to detach himself from those around him, merely existing; waiting for an end to something. He never really seems to build a relationship with any one person. While he will enter conversations, there is no real emotion attachment to the relationship he builds. The same goes for his relationship with Naoko. For some reason, I feel there is this wall between the two, where emotion is void. Yes, he says he cares. But somehow, his actions seem to say otherwise.

Interesting! Desipte all Toro's efforts to "detach" himself from those around him, he seems, maybe subcouncousily chasing after them and be the one to attach himself to them. I think of Toro as an honest person, and is not honesty part of someone's emotions? to me, yes it is.

So far so good, I am, too, enjoying this great novel. I hope to catch up with you soon.

Regards,
Amylian.

[Scheherazade]

Finished reading the book over the weekend; it was such an excellent treat!

In reference to the question of the well, I believe it is the hospital's "pink elephant". The well, I think, is a way for the patient's to explain a member's "disappearance". In other words, I think when a patient commits suicide, they use the well as a metaphor; rather than admit therapy failed.I still believe "well" is used as a metaphore for depression. Naoko says something that if people ended up falling in, no one would hear their cries for help etc.


I find Turo's and Naoko's relationship interesting. While Turo expresses care, concern (maybe even love) for Naoko; I feel that in reality, perhaps he is not really in love with her per se. Given the circumstances of Kizuki's death, I feel the two were/are bound by circumstances. Agreed. They are brought together and bound by experience. Seems like they did not know how to deal with it. It might be something cultural that people do not talk about suicides in Japan, leaving young people like Naoko and Toru to take of themselves (which they do not seem capable of doing).


I feel Turo's way of dealing with Kizuko's death, and other "friendships" thereafter is perplexing. He seems to detach himself from those around him, merely existing; waiting for an end to something. He never really seems to build a relationship with any one person.I wonder... In my opinion, Toru simply does not know how to connect, rather than detaching himself purposefully. Nagasawa, on the other hand, does detach himself from the people around him on purpose, which is why, I think, Toru decides to cut his ties off with him later on.

Naoko on the other hand, seems to be the opposite of Turo in terms of emotional attachment. This is the reason why she observes herself as "twisted". Then again, given her experience with her sister committing suicide and Kizuki...one can hardly blame her. Even with her relationship with Kizuki, it seems there was this detachment emotionally. While they certainly had a connection and a deep freindship; I think romantic love was absent from their relationship. Naoko... I have to say she is the character I liked the least in the book. I don't think she is emotionally connected at all. Even though I appreciate all she has been through, she does not seem to be making any effort to get over (too wrapped up in her own misery and feeling sorry for herself).


Perhaps it is different with Japanese society, and what they place their emphasis on; in terms of what is important. That I am not sure. I have a premonition on what will happen with Naoko and Midori. I feel if anyone should be in the hospital, Turo should. He doesn't seem to be addressing Kizuko's death emotionally. This detachment is also seen in his discussion on his major in the university; and his lack of wanting to aspire to a specific goal.Heh, I think we have very different takes on the issue. I think Toru is the only one in the book who can actually make healthy choices and deal with his own circumstances (even though very round-about ways at times).

By and large, I think the book is concentrating on young people's inability to deal with death and loss (in various forms).

Though death in itself is so dark and harsh, the way it's described here made it darker and harsher.I really liked the passage you mentioned... and I was taken aback that how true it can be in certain cases.
There is a phrase on page 25 which I feel sums up the them of the book:
"Death exists, not as the opposite but as a part of life."

As each character progresses, we see how death has touched them; and how they adapted to the change. Turo seems to just accept it, and help those around him to cope. Naoko seems to take it on a personal level, to the point where she cannot separate herself from that identity. Midori appears to be afraid. That passage you have quoted seems the key for survival in the book. People need to accept that death is part of life to be able to survive and live (how ironic!).

I am not sure if Midori is afraid of death. I think she is the one who has experienced death in real terms (watched dying people, unlike Toru and Naoko, whose experiences were very clean cut... People they knew killed themselves... No dirty business of watching them die slowly etc) and she is the one, in my opinion, who can actually accept death for what it is...

It is ironic, again, that Midori says clearly that she is a living girl made of blood and flesh. Even though she has lost both her parents, she does not feel sorry for herself and Toru chooses her and present (life) to be able to survive.

There are couple of passages I would like to quote as well but I am running out of time, so will get back to this thread later on :)

Niamh> Library? :D

[lugdunum]

I still believe "well" is used as a metaphore for depression. Naoko says something that if people ended up falling in, no one would hear their cries for help etc.

Agreed. I also think that "the well " is an image for depression.
Naoko tells Turo that he needn't worry as he would never fall into it .
Also she says that as long as she's with him she won't fall either which shows that she sees Toru as a great support against depression.

I'm only halfway through the book but am enjoying it so much I can't wait to get home tonight to pick it up again.

[Niamh]

book arrived today! :D going to start it tonight!

[HerGuardian]

I've finished reading this lovely novel.

It's interesting how Watanabe didn't fall into the well (depression leading to suicide) though he was walking through the darkness (the time he was all by himself) most of the time alone. After Naoko's suicide, Watanabe tripped and was about to fall in the well but he balanced himself and survived.

In regard to Naoko, her character is so depressing and repulsive (to me). She's uncertain of anything, even her most joyable moments (having sex with Watanabe) were considered by her as a filthy violation. She suspects even her own emotions. Her suicide was certain after turning down Watanabe's offer to come and live with him. She wasn't honest to herself about how she sees life. She even explained her boyfriend's suicide (Kizuki) in a strange way "We didn't pay when we should have, so now the bills are due".

[mickitaz]

Okay, I have now finished the book as well. Was anyone else confused? Did Toru die? I can't quite make heads or tales of the final outcome.

[Taliesin]

I have the book! And I am past the first 124 pages.

[Scheherazade]

In regard to Naoko, her character is so depressing and repulsive (to me). Agreed!
Okay, I have now finished the book as well. Was anyone else confused? Did Toru die? I can't quite make heads or tales of the final outcome.I didn't think it was confusing... What made you think that Toru was dead?
I have the book! And I am past the first 124 pages.Oh, I would definetely like to hear your views on this book, Tal! :)

[mickitaz]

Agreed!I didn't think it was confusing... What made you think that Toru was dead?

The very last line of the book confused me "Again and again, I called out for Midori from the dead center of this place that was no place".

While he was on the phone with Midori, he didn't know where he was. "Where was I know? I had no idea. No idea at all. Where was this place? All that flashed into my eyes were th countless shapes of people walking by to nowhere."

It was almost as if he died, but his consciousness, was unaware of this matter. Several times, after he wandered through the seasides, people commented on his appearance as withdrawn and emmaciated. Even Toru himself said "I was overcome with a sense of my own defilement."

Granted, this was his grief period, and sometimes one becomes so overwhelmed that they become this way. But I got the impression as Naoko's condition worsened, so did Toru's. His mood seemed to be synonomous with Naoko. Once she died, it took a period of adjustment for him to separate himself from her.


I wonder... In my opinion, Toru simply does not know how to connect, rather than detaching himself purposefully. Nagasawa, on the other hand, does detach himself from the people around him on purpose, which is why, I think, Toru decides to cut his ties off with him later on.

Agreed. Toru does seem to have connection issues. He fails to form any real friendships. The only two meaningful freindships he seemed to form was with Midori and Itoh. Storm Trooper was merely just because they shared a room, and to be honest, I think Nagasawa was more of a convenience freindship. The two had nothing in common, and clearly did not understand each other.


By and large, I think the book is concentrating on young people's inability to deal with death and loss (in various forms).
I am not sure if Midori is afraid of death. I think she is the one who has experienced death in real terms (watched dying people, unlike Toru and Naoko, whose experiences were very clean cut... People they knew killed themselves... No dirty business of watching them die slowly etc) and she is the one, in my opinion, who can actually accept death for what it is...




I may have been pre-emptive in my assesment on Midori. In reviewing some of the passages, I would say she is more tired of death. She has dealt with it in the more "natural" sense of seeing disease take over. I think once her father died, she was more relieved at that fact she didn't have to worry so much anymore.

What is interesting is comparing how Midori dealt with her father's death, and how Toru dealt with Naoko's death. Midori left with her boyfriend and came back alone. She went on her own journey by herself. She and her sister got their own apartment and went on living.

Toru, on the other hand; got his apartment before Naoko died. He made preparations for her to come and live with him. When she finally did die, Toru detached himself once again, and went on a journey alone. When he came back, he still was not finished with his personal journey. Where Midori was vibrant and ready to continue with life; Toru was a shell and still clinging to the past.

Sorry if I seem to be only quoting Scheherazade, however I have yet to figure out how to quote more than one poster in my reply... still working on that ;)

[HerGuardian]

Okay, I have now finished the book as well. Was anyone else confused? Did Toru die? I can't quite make heads or tales of the final outcome.


He didn't die. Aside from any inferences, he is the narrator of the story. He narrated the story after 13 years when he heard the song "Norwegian Wood".

Reiko's story with the 13-year-old girl is a depiction of real life. It shows how we act in such situations. We, most of the time, believe the weaker, the younger or the employee. It's saddening how that girl ruined the life of Reiko. People thought such an angel (the girl) can't be manipulative. Appearances are so deceiveable.

[Taliesin]

Finished the book yesterday night with the help of a bottle of wine.

The character of Nagasawa seems worthy of attention - he seemed to be a sort of archetypal character - an amoral, but not immoral, logical, egoistic, intelligent , uncaring for others, pleasure-seeking man. Reminded me a bit of Svidrigailov or Pechorin. Usually these kinds of characters seem self-destructive, but Nagasawa actually was one of the few characters who didn't commit suicide. (seriously - Kizuki, Naoko, her sister, Hatsumi - it seems like an epidemic)
It is quite interesting how the characters who commit suicide seem to be totally okay before they commit suicide - that is true especially in the case of Kizuki and Naokos sister - but Naoko also seems to be in a good mood beforehand.


I think that Hatsumis suicide makes sense to me - being in love with such a bastard as Nagasawa and understanding that he is, of course, a bastard, but also understanding that she loves him - I think that after those two years she understood that she really was in love with Nagasawa and became disappointed/disillusioned in love/life.


Nagasawa claims at the dinner, that Toru and he are actually quite similar only that Toru hasn't acknowledged it to himself and is therefore confused or gets hurt sometimes. Do you think that this statement is true, at least partially?

[mickitaz]

He didn't die. Aside from any inferences, he is the narrator of the story. He narrated the story after 13 years when he heard the song "Norwegian Wood".

Okay, big DER on my part. Didn't think of it in that respect.


I think that Hatsumis suicide makes sense to me - being in love with such a bastard as Nagasawa and understanding that he is, of course, a bastard, but also understanding that she loves him - I think that after those two years she understood that she really was in love with Nagasawa and became disappointed/disillusioned in love/life.

I agree. Out of anyone who committed suicide, Hatsumis seemed more logical. While I feel that she was a strong enough person to overcome the illusion she created; she still seemed to have the most validity.



Nagasawa claims at the dinner, that Toru and he are actually quite similar only that Toru hasn't acknowledged it to himself and is therefore confused or gets hurt sometimes. Do you think that this statement is true, at least partially?
I would agree with this as well. Toru seems to have trouble connecting with people. Rather than befriend Storm Trooper, he joins the crowd in mocking him. Nagasawa was a relationship based on convenience. Naoko's relationship bled (sorry for the pun) from his friendship from Kizuki. The only two people who were his "true" friends were Itoh and Midori.

While he engaged in the sexual engagements with Nagasawa, he made excuses to himself why he can do it; and not feel like garbage. He negotiated with himself that what he was doing wasn't wrong, because he took the time to treat the girls like human beings. But in reality, he was just as guilty as Nagasawa.


hehe.. I figured out how to quote more than one now Yippee!
This is first brought to light with the conversation with Reiko. Once he realized he was no better than Nagasawa, he stopped engaging in such actions. I think you are right, though. When Nagasawa made the connection between himself and Toru, that really bothered him to the core. Finally, when he saw how upset Hatsumi was by Nagasawa's honesty, this drove the final point home. That he cannot live his life detached from the people in his life.

[HerGuardian]

It's quite interesting that Hatsumi is the only girl who meet Toru and didn't have sex with him. She was so in love with Nagasawa that even Toru with his kindness and attributes didn't get her into bed.


Toru's relationship with girls/women is puzzling. He seems not to have any characteristics of his to-be girlfriend. He is interested in his girlfriend back home, Naoko, Midori and his liking for both Hatsumi and Reiko.

Toru seems to be a man who has his own mind and ways. However, he is easily affected by the people around him. For example, he makes fun of Trooper but acquired the habits of him. He started to be obsessed about cleanness. Also, he is affected by Nagasawa's girls-seeking nights-out.

[Niamh]

I've started reading it. I'm quite enjoying it at the moment but i'm not going to comment or read any of the above discussion till i've finished! I already made the mistake of glancing at one post!

[Scheherazade]

The character of Nagasawa seems worthy of attention - he seemed to be a sort of archetypal character - an amoral, but not immoral, logical, egoistic, intelligent , uncaring for others, pleasure-seeking man. Reminded me a bit of Svidrigailov or Pechorin. Usually these kinds of characters seem self-destructive, but Nagasawa actually was one of the few characters who didn't commit suicide.I was thinking of Meursault (of The Outsider) doing the Catcher in the Rye actually while I was reading...
(seriously - Kizuki, Naoko, her sister, Hatsumi - it seems like an epidemic)
It is quite interesting how the characters who commit suicide seem to be totally okay before they commit suicide - that is true especially in the case of Kizuki and Naokos sister - but Naoko also seems to be in a good mood beforehand.I think it might be something cultural.

I think that after those two years she understood that she really was in love with Nagasawa and became disappointed/disillusioned in love/life. It is ironic, though, isn't it? She seems to have prefered being unfaithful and unreliable Nagasawa's girlfriend to the married life she was leading.


Nagasawa claims at the dinner, that Toru and he are actually quite similar only that Toru hasn't acknowledged it to himself and is therefore confused or gets hurt sometimes. Do you think that this statement is true, at least partially?I think initially they were quite similar... Toru shows little concern for others as well at the beginning but later on he makes a conscious decision not to be so and when he hears Nagasawa's comment on Hatsumi's suicide, he cuts all his ties with him.


It's quite interesting that Hatsumi is the only girl who meet Toru and didn't have sex with him. She was so in love with Nagasawa that even Toru with his kindness and attributes didn't get her into bed. I think it was a mechanical way of relating to these people for Toru;however, he realised that it had to mean more.

[Pensive]

Gone through the first 120 pages of the book in one sitting (one sitting should tell I have found it quite interesting :) ) Hopefully will tell more about my views once I finish it.

[lugdunum]

Well, Pensive, don't do the same mistake as I did reading other people's comments before finishing the book as there are quite a few spoilers... ;)

So, back to the book:



I find Turo's and Naoko's relationship interesting. While Turo expresses care, concern (maybe even love) for Naoko; I feel that in reality, perhaps he is not really in love with her per se. Given the circumstances of Kizuki's death, I feel the two were/are bound by circumstances.


At the end of the book, when Reiko and Turo are celebrating that 2nd funeral, Turo says


"But I can't forget her," I said. "I told Naoko I would go on waiting for her, but I couldn't do it. I turned my back on her in the end. I'm not saying anyone's to blame: it's a problem for me myself. I do think that things would have worked out the same way even if I hadn't turned my back on her. Naoko was choosing death all along. But that's beside the point. I can't forgive myself. You tell me there's nothing I can do about a natural change in feelings, but my relationship with Naoko was not that simple. If you stop and think about it, she and I were bound together at the border between life and death. It was like that for us from the start."

I dont think that either of them was in love with the other, it was more that they were bound together by Kizuki and maybe got these feelings confused. Like they thought they understood each other better than anyone and wouldn't find anyone else like that.

As some of you have said I didn't like the character of Naoko.
Not only was she constantly lost and feeling sorry for herself, but she wasn't even fair to the people she supposedly loved. I mean why didn't she say anything when Toru was talking about his plans for the future?

She was the total opposite of Nagasawa who was always straght forward and who says at one point:

Don't feel sorry for yourself, only a**holes do that or something along those lines anyway.

As a whole anyway, Toru was sitting between two stools so to speak:
One wasdeath: with Naoko, memories of Kizuki, and the other was life with Midori and Nagasawa who take advantage o every opportunity to enjoy life. But never quite deciding where to go.

But in the end, it seems that Toru has gotten out of that vicious circle Naoko was dragging him. At the beginning, he says that he is slowly forgetting Naoko and that sometimes he really has to concentrate to remember her...
I think that's a good sign.

[Niamh]

I didnt dislike Naoko. I dont think she was being selfish either. Depression is a very difficult thing to deal with. Some may say that people who commite suicide are selfish in death because they dont think of the consequences it would have on the family. But in the end it is a relief for them, no more pain and sorrow, they are finally at peace.
I knew Naoko was going to commite suicide, it was obvious from the direction her mental illness was going, especially when she first mentions the voices.
I think that Toru was being a tiny bit selfish when it came to mentioning to her to move in with him. He had been previously told by Reiko to be patiant, but more or less telling someone that your moving in march and that would be a great time for them to move in, isnt exactly being patiant. Seeing as she was going deeper into her well of depression (i too agree the well is symbolic of depression), this might have been another knock to her, hence why she might not have wanted Toru to be part of a group discussion. He could have become part of the problem instead of the relief.
I do think Toru loved Naoko, but it was more of the head, to be her protector, than a love of body and soul which he found in Midori.

[HerGuardian]

Nagasawa is somewhat bizarre in his way of living. He always tries to be number one in everything. On the other hand, his relationship with Hatsumi -who as he said is a great person, greater than what he deserves - is degrading to her. He most of the time tries to hurt her emotionally and psychologically. For example, he tells her about his nights-out with girls saying it's his system of living. Also, when he said to said to Toeu in front of Hatsumi that he wants to go out with Hatsumi, Toru and a girl (Toru should bring her) then exchange Hatsumi with Toru's girl. Maybe he wanted to destroy the good image Hatsumi has about Toru - by bringing up the topic when he and Toru exchanged girls - but saying such a thing is offensive.

[lugdunum]

Yes Nagasawa is a very peculiar character. On one hand he is being very nice and sometimes "generous" with Toru and it seems that he even considers him as a friend. But then on the other side, he's a really selfish, self centerd person.
And as you've sais absolutely horrible in the way he behaves with his girlfriend.

I think he just cannot be bothered to stop and consider what others think or feel.

He's quite a complex character to understand (at least for me)

[Niamh]

yeah i agree that he is complex. He was the character i like least. dont understand why Hatsumi remained with him until he went away. i suppose love does strange things. I was sad to read that she was to kill herself...

[HerGuardian]

Once Nagasawa said to Toru "We are the same." I believe that's true in many aspects. For instance, they both don't mind abuse anyone to get what they want. Toru always tells jokes about his roommate Trooper just to make people laugh. He even went too far by spicing things up about Trooper's sexual attitudes toward the pictures. Another example, exactly like Nagasawa, Toru satisfies his excessive sexual needs by sleeping with unknown-to-him girls.

[Niamh]

Once Nagasawa said to Toru "We are the same." I believe that's true in many aspects. For instance, they both don't mind abuse anyone to get what they want. Toru always tells jokes about his roommate Trooper just to make people laugh. He even went too far by spicing things up about Trooper's sexual attitudes toward the pictures. Another example, exactly like Nagasawa, Toru satisfies his excessive sexual needs by sleeping with unknown-to-him girls.

Yes but that is partly due to the influence of Nagasawa. What proves he is different, is his abstainance after his visit to Naoko. The shows more strength in character.
I agree with the Storm Trooper bit. He used him for his own enjoyment and as a form of connecting himself with the world. Its after Storm Trooper goes that he really starts to realise his own isolation.

[HerGuardian]

Yes but that is partly due to the influence of Nagasawa. What proves he is different, is his abstainance after his visit to Naoko. The shows more strength in character.



It's true that Nagasawa has his influence on Toru like anyone else - meant both ways-. However, Toru's abstinence was due to him being busy and the pain he felt because of his relations with Naoko and Midori; otherwise, he would have continued the same way.

One last word, the novel is excellent though the discussion was not.
Read it people, it's a good one:D

[Scheherazade]

What do you think happened to the Trooper? Has he committed suicide too?

[Niamh]

I was wondering about that too. Its possible.

[HerGuardian]

What do you think happened to the Trooper? Has he committed suicide too?

His disappearance was strange especially when they came and took his stuff without saying WHY or WHAT'S WRONG!!

He's not suicidal like others but maybe cause his family is poor he didn't come back.

[Scheherazade]

His disappearance was strange especially when they came and took his stuff without saying WHY or WHAT'S WRONG!!

He's not suicidal like others but maybe cause his family is poor he didn't come back.Why wouldn't he come back himself then to collect his belongings? Why send someone else?

[HerGuardian]

Why wouldn't he come back himself then to collect his belongings? Why send someone else?

that's strange but i think his belongings were only the poster

[Niamh]

I feel that maybe something had happened to him during vacation. He may have been in an accident, rendering him unfit to return to college, presuming he had not died. Truth be told i spent the rest of the novel thinking that he, like Naoko, had a bad turn and was in a hospital.

[Brigitte]

I had to start late because I was dealing with summer school, but I'm about halfway through. I'm going to finish it this weekend, I hope and read through all the comments. (: Great novel so far. I'm really impressed and enjoying it a lot.

[Niamh]

I had to start late because I was dealing with summer school, but I'm about halfway through. I'm going to finish it this weekend, I hope and read through all the comments. (: Great novel so far. I'm really impressed and enjoying it a lot.

Yes i thought it was very good too.

[HerGuardian]

There's something that bothered me a lot which is the amount of sexual encounters in the novel. What do you think? Were they part of the novel or just to make it sell out?

[mickitaz]

No, I don't think the sexual encounters were there to sell the book. I think they were an integral part of the author painting the picture of how emotionally detached the characters of the story were.

[Niamh]

I think it is a portrayal of the discovery of sex during college years. Not to forget the free- sex image that was the 60's and 70's.

[Brigitte]

I have to say my least favorite character was also Naoko. Sure depression is difficult to deal with but she never really made any attempts to get better. Or I felt she could have just tried harder to be happy. She could easily have lived with Toru and tried to make it work. Instead she let him suffer and wait for nothing considering she was going to kill herself.

The character I would most want to have a conversation with would probably be Nagasawa. Something about the way he lived his life intrigued me. For the most part I found myself thinking "No, no... that's not how I think..." and I'd want an explanation for his way of life. Definitely I agree he was complex and even though his way of life was sort of unhealthy, he survived (as in, didn't kill himself).

So many times I felt really bad for Midori. She was a great girl and deserved a life full of happiness. To have to stand in the back and wait for Naoko's death must have been a painful thing. She intrigued me so much, and she was so raw/real.

I'm also a little confused by the ending. Why didn't Toru know where he was at the time? If he was so eager to start his life with Midori, why was he lost in the crowd?

[papayahed]

I I'm also a little confused by the ending. Why didn't Toru know where he was at the time? If he was so eager to start his life with Midori, why was he lost in the crowd?

I'm thinking that was a metaphor also, to get out of the confusion and grief and detachment and make it back to Midori.

[lugdunum]

i'm also a little confused by the ending. Why didn't Toru know where he was at the time? If he was so eager to start his life with Midori, why was he lost in the crowd?

Yes I was also confused by the end... (and have been by the end of every other Murakami book I've read).

I'm not getting the metaphor though!? If you don't mind, can you explain Papayahed please? Any other ideas?

I also felt bad for midori. She has a very strong personality and doesn'twaste time feeling sorry for herself.

[papayahed]

Yes I was also confused by the end... (and have been by the end of every other Murakami book I've read).

I'm not getting the metaphor though!? If you don't mind, can you explain Papayahed please? Any other ideas?

I also felt bad for midori. She has a very strong personality and doesn'twaste time feeling sorry for herself.

I've reread the ending and I'm not so sure that's exactly right either. Toru is in a place, he doesn't know where he's at, and he's calling out to Midori to help him find his way back?

I'm having a hard time rating this story. It kept me interested and coming back to read it but overall the actual story was pretty boring.

Wow, Wilbur you've rated the book a "Waste of time". What are your thoughts on the book?

[tinybore]

I have to say my least favorite character was also Naoko. Sure depression is difficult to deal with but she never really made any attempts to get better. Or I felt she could have just tried harder to be happy. She could easily have lived with Toru and tried to make it work. Instead she let him suffer and wait for nothing considering she was going to kill herself.


Depression is difficult to deal with indeed, that's why it's very hard for depressed people to even try to be happy. They're too depressed/tired to even bother with it. That's why they take years of therapies and medicines, and many don't ever recover from that. They just get medicines so they won't feel nothing more than numbness.
To call such people for "selfish" is very harsh. It's really nothing they can do about.
For us who aren't (diagnosed) depressed can't understand how it really is.

Back to the book, it's one of my fav books. I really liked the way Haruki described emotions with words, how simple he explains difficult things. It's been a while since I've read it, but I remember it affected me very deep for a very long time. The story, the writing style, and the characters...wow.

And sorry for brining up an old thread...

[kev67]

I read this several months ago. Poor Toru, what a terrible choice he had to make, although it was no choice at all really. I was very choked up by the last chapter. It was no surprise, but still I was glad I wasn't reading it in the coffee shop. Some other things that struck me included:

Late 60s Japan did not seem very different to here and now. I thought the culture would be completely alien, but it wasn't.

There was more smut in it than I was expecting.

There was a bit too much suicide for my liking.

I gathered Toru was a great story teller and conversationalist, but in his reported conversations, he comes across as being a bit dull. I wondered why Midori liked him so much. I suppose he was a handsome devil.

I wondered how much Toru was like the author. He likes cats; he likes jazz; he's good with words.

One or two incidents seemed a bit unlikely. That story by Reiko about being seduced by an adolescent, lesbian sociopath sounded a bit tall.

I liked the descriptions of the landscapes. I wanted to get on a plane to Japan and visit those mountains.

[Atomic]

Like most of Murakami's narrators, Toru is wishy-washy, and lacks any real convictions. Still, a stellar work, but far from his best. The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle is a better example of Murakami's insights into the mystery and danger of female suffering.