The Winter's Tale - Act I [Archive] - Literature Network Forums

Janine

06-16-2008, 03:56 PM

I have Bloom's Shakespeare: The Invention of the Human, and Bloom doesn't list any of the plays as tragicomedies.

He calls "A Winter's Tale" a "pastoral lyric."

It is listed under "Late Romances." The full list of "Late Romances" is:

Pericles
Cymbeline
The Winter's Tale
The Tempest
Henry VIII
The Two Noble Kinsmen

Could you be thinking of another book by Bloom?

Antiquarian and JBI, I have always been confused about the categories and how scholars go about labeling Shakespeare's plays - they all seem to differ in their opinions on the subject. I think there are fine lines here between all types of plays -comedical/tragedical/pastoral/historical - that is just my own personal thought and always has been. Everyone of Shakespeare's so called Comedies contain elements of each in my opinion. When the tragerians come to entertain Hamlet, Polonius rattles off this line referring to the newly arrived players and what they have to offer:

The best actors in the world, either for tragedy, comedy, history, pastoral, pastoral-comical, historical-pastoral, tragical-historical, tragical-comedical-historical-pastoral, scene individable, or poem unlimited: Seneca cannot be too heavy nor Plautus too light. For the law of writ and the liberty, these are all the only men.

I thought this interesting, (helps to be watching and reading Hamlet presently, ;) Anti will get what I mean here) because of all the categories, or mixed categories spoken in this excerpt and these are actually Shakespeare's own words; therefore, I wondered if they reflect how he felt about his plays and the idea of placing them into specific categories. Reading this, it seems to me as though he realises and is trying to convey, that they all overlap in category, within each play. As Polonius reads this off, it is a rather humorous part of the play - quite comical. In this moment with Polonius, was Shakespeare poking some fun at categorising his body of work?

I am not sure what is meant exactly, by that last line. I have only a vague idea; the beginning of it seems to sum things up and the part -'the only men' he is referring to the players.

Antiquarian, you wrote this before, the above passage I quoted from you:

I would call the play a tragicomedy, but I have to bow to Bloom's superior expertise.

I don't know - why must you do so? I have heard so much debate on this subject, online and in books; I don't think one has to actually decide, one way or the other; nor bow to one scholar's opinion. Just because one is a scholar does not mean they are 100% correct. I think the choice should be individual anyway. I know I read "Pericles" and I would never call that pastoral, pastoral-lyric, or late romance....I felt it had some very tragic elements or at least very sad throughout most of that play. In fact, in my own book, it is listed under the tragedies.

There's been some debate already over whether this is a comedy or a tragedy. I think both Janine and I agree that it's more of a tragicomedy.

I have a book by Harold Bloom that lists it as a "late romance."

In the end, I think it is probably insignificant as to just what category it is placed into. I may have started this discussion by mentioning, some serious or tragic areas of this particular play. When I first listened to this play, on audiofile, a year or so ago, I felt it had a very sad tone to it. I was then wondering why in-the-world, it was called a 'comedy' in my own book. I admit my book is an older version without any true commentary added.
When I read all the histories, a few years ago, I finally concluded that some of those actually were also tragedies, so I guess then, they could be as Polonius was reading off his paper from the players, as 'tragical-historical'. Now for my own satisfaction, I think I will call this play "The Winter's Tale" -'tragical-comedical-pastoral' :lol: That seems to sum it all up!

Equality72521

06-16-2008, 04:05 PM

YAY! I think I'm going to have to dig through my Shakespeare pile for the play....that might take a while...

kasie

06-18-2008, 12:08 PM

[QUOTE=Janine;585734]Antiquarian and JBI, I have always been confused about the categories and how scholars go about labeling Shakespeare's plays.....these are actually Shakespeare's own words; therefore, I wondered if they reflect how he felt about his plays and the idea of placing them into specific categories. Reading this, it seems to me as though he realises and is trying to convey, that they all overlap in category, within each play. ...In this moment with Polonius, was Shakespeare poking some fun at categorising his body of work? ....In the end, I think it is probably insignificant as to just what category it is placed into....QUOTE]

How about we just get on and read the play? We can perhaps come to some conclusion after having read it, rather than before.

To start the ball rolling:

Act I Sc i: Sets the scene - Polixenes, King of Bohemia, has been on an extended visit to his life-long friend, Leontes, King of Sicilia. The friendship between the two monarchs extends to members of their courts as Archidamus of Bohemia extends a warm invitation to Camillo, Leontes' trusted councillor. Though it sounds like one of those courteous and diplomatic invitations that are issued without much thought of it ever being taken up (and we've all issued those from time to time, I'm sure!), it enables Camillo to make a hasty flight in the next scene.

Act I sc ii: Polixenes proposes to return home and at first refuses to be persuded by Leontes to stay a little longer. Leontes calls on his wife, Hermione, to add her voice to his persuasions but when she is successful in changing Polixenes' mind, becomes suspicious of the warm relationship between his wife and his friend. He questions Camillo as to the general opinion of the relationship but is not convinced by Camillo's surprised denial of any obvious infidelity. Leontes convinces Camillo of Polixenes' guilt and Camillo ofers to take advantage of being cup-bearer to the visitor and poison him. Leontes accepts the offer but when he has gone, Camillo reveals the plan to an astounded Polixenes; together they plan to flee the Sicilian court.

What do you make of Leontes' jealousy? And what do you make of Camillo's behaviour?

sofia82

06-18-2008, 01:11 PM

Act I Sc i: Sets the scene - Polixenes, King of Bohemia, has been on an extended visit to his life-long friend, Leontes, King of Sicilia. The friendship between the two monarchs extends to members of their courts as Archidamus of Bohemia extends a warm invitation to Camillo, Leontes' trusted councillor. Though it sounds like one of those courteous and diplomatic invitations that are issued without much thought of it ever being taken up (and we've all issued those from time to time, I'm sure!), it enables Camillo to make a hasty flight in the next scene.

Act I-i seems to me as an introduction to both Bohemia and Sicilia.
In the introduction to the play in The Riverside Shakespeare it is said,

"The first three acts of The Winter's Tale are a dramatization of the corresonding portion of Robert Greene's novel Pandosto, ... This romantic proclaims as its purpose the displaying of the evils of jeoulsy."

But the interesting is that Shakespeare reverses the characters as it is stated

Greene's jealous king, Pandosto of Bohemia, is changed into leontes of Sicilia, ... and Shakespeare's reason for switching the countries is a matter of some critical interest.

What do you think of this switching of characters?

Another source I found in Wikipedia

One modern historian, Eric Ives, believes that the play is really a parody of the fall of Queen Anne Boleyn, who was beheaded on false charges of adultery on the orders of her husband Henry VIII in 1536. There are numerous parallels between the two stories - including the fact that one of Henry's closest friends, Sir Henry Norreys, was beheaded as one of Anne's supposed lovers and he refused to confess in order to save his life – claiming that everyone knew the Queen was innocent. If this theory is followed then Perdita becomes a dramatic presentation of Anne's only daughter, Queen Elizabeth I.

An idea, Can we post different pictures of The Winter's Tale'sperformances in another Thread, It can be good for stage direction and discussion of the characters. What is your idea?

Janine

06-18-2008, 03:18 PM

Act I-i seems to me as an introduction to both Bohemia and Sicilia.
In the introduction to the play in The Riverside Shakespeare it is said,

sophia, I find all of this source material you have dug up online interesting. I am usually big on using other sources of research to add to my own understanding of the play or story. I did not requote you here (others can read your post above); but, I think that is about accurate. I did read online, something similar, as to the 'introduction' and the purpose of the opening/introduction of the play. If I can find what I read again I will post it to add to your ideas.

But the interesting is that Shakespeare reverses the characters as it is stated

That part is interesting. I don't think it that unusual that Shakespeare or any author of the day has drawn from other stories, legends, histories, characters in order to create his own play with these elements. There is always conjecture on all of Shakespeare's plays as to the origins of the ideas that took form in the genius playwrite's mind.

What do you think of this switching of characters?

I think often authors will do this. I have seen it before in stories that were suggested by other stories of an earlier origin. I think the switching of the characters may be significant, in a political sense, but I don't know enough about the politics in Shakespeare's time, to determine why he would switch them. I do think it is clever of Shakespeare.

Another source I found in Wikipedia

One modern historian, Eric Ives, believes that the play is really a parody of the fall of Queen Anne Boleyn, who was beheaded on false charges of adultery on the orders of her husband Henry VIII in 1536. There are numerous parallels between the two stories - including the fact that one of Henry's closest friends, Sir Henry Norreys, was beheaded as one of Anne's supposed lovers and he refused to confess in order to save his life – claiming that everyone knew the Queen was innocent. If this theory is followed then Perdita becomes a dramatic presentation of Anne's only daughter, Queen Elizabeth I.

I don't know if he is stretching his theory here but it certainly is a fascinating one. I never thought of the connecting when I first experienced the play (listened to it on audiofile). The wife is indeed falsely accused. There are definite parallels and all this would have occurred during or after Shakespeare's life. Elizabeth I sat on the throne of england during the time of Shakespeare. She often attended his performances. Perdita may represent Elizabeth in a sense, so maybe Shakespeare is trying to make a statement in this play. I happened to just see the HBO miniseries film last night "Elizabeth I" and I have to tell you, there were many supposed lovers who got the axe in those days. If you shone in the light of the Queen's favors all was rosy, but cross her and that could easily be your downfall. One tread a very thin line with serving all monarchs of that time.

Here is some additional information that I found online in Sparknotes:

SparkNotes –The Winter’s Tale

The Winter's Tale is one of Shakespeare's final plays. Composed and performed around 1610-11, it joins Pericles, Cymbeline, and The Tempest in the list of genre-defying later plays that are usually referred to as romances, or tragicomedies. Each of these productions has a happy ending that sets them apart from earlier histories and tragedies, but each emphasizes the danger and power of evil in the world, and death, while never finally victorious, is an ever-present force in the stories......

I left a small bit of text out of the end of this because I thought it might be a spoiler to those who have not yet read the play.

There is no one source for The Winter's Tale, although Shakespeare relies heavily on the works of Richard Greene, a London writer in the 1580s and '90s. (Greene may have been the author of a 1592 pamphlet attacking Shakespeare, which makes the Bard's borrowings from the deceased writer particularly appropriate.) From Pandosto, Greene's 1588 prose romance, Shakespeare borrowed most of the characters and events of the first three acts; and the character and habits of Autolycus seem to be drawn from Greene's pamphlet accounts of criminals in Elizabethan London. The story of the abandoned royal baby, meanwhile, owes much to popular folklore of the time, and the seasonal themes touched on in Act IV echo Ovid's

Metamorphoses--Perdita is associated with Proserpina, whose emergence from the Underworld in Greek myth was supposed to herald the return of spring. Finally, the resurrection of Hermione in Act V owes an obvious debt to the Pygmalion story, in which a sculptor's work comes to life through divine intervention.

In terms of strength of character, unity of plot, and audience satisfaction, The Winter's Tale may be the best of the later romances, and it has been a favorite of directors and audiences down to the present day.

Here is the link to the Sparknotes commentary online:
http://www.sparknotes.com/shakespeare/winterstale/

An idea, Can we post different pictures of The Winter's Tale'sperformances in another Thread, It can be good for stage direction and discussion of the characters. What is your idea?

I would think making up a new thread would be your best bet. I think it would be great to make one up of all of Shakespeares performances on stage or screen in one separate thread, like a general 'Shakespeare Performance' thread perhaps. That would be truly entertaining and enlightening. Do you want to start that thread, sophia? I love stage and screen performances of Shakespeare particularly, so count me in. I know I can come up with some great photos; I copy them all the time for my own files. We could collaborate on getting it launched, if you want or if you need any help I would be glad to help out; just email me on here, if interested.

I have several ideas for visual threads, myself; I may be acting on those by the weekend.

How about we just get on and read the play? We can perhaps come to some conclusion after having read it, rather than before.

kasie, yes I agree - we do need to get on with the story. It really makes no difference to understanding the story to categorize it precisely. We were just discussing this idea before the discussion got rolling and while everyone was still reading the text. I know I have to review it myself.

To start the ball rolling:

Act I Sc i: Sets the scene - Polixenes, King of Bohemia, has been on an extended visit to his life-long friend, Leontes, King of Sicilia. The friendship between the two monarchs extends to members of their courts as Archidamus of Bohemia extends a warm invitation to Camillo, Leontes' trusted councillor. Though it sounds like one of those courteous and diplomatic invitations that are issued without much thought of it ever being taken up (and we've all issued those from time to time, I'm sure!), it enables Camillo to make a hasty flight in the next scene.

These are your words or quoted from commentary? I would agree that some of it might be political in origin. I think that kind of diplomatic invitations would have existed in the court at that time; they still exist today between diplomates of various countries. It does however seem that Polixenes and Leontes were life-long friends so it was not just diplomatics between them. I will have to review that part of the text. My intention was to listen again to the audiofile last night but it got to late to do so. I will do so tonight; at least Act I.

Act I sc ii: Polixenes proposes to return home and at first refuses to be persuded by Leontes to stay a little longer. Leontes calls on his wife, Hermione, to add her voice to his persuasions but when she is successful in changing Polixenes' mind, becomes suspicious of the warm relationship between his wife and his friend. He questions Camillo as to the general opinion of the relationship but is not convinced by Camillo's surprised denial of any obvious infidelity. Leontes convinces Camillo of Polixenes' guilt and Camillo ofers to take advantage of being cup-bearer to the visitor and poison him. Leontes accepts the offer but when he has gone, Camillo reveals the plan to an astounded Polixenes; together they plan to flee the Sicilian court.

What do you make of Leontes' jealousy? And what do you make of Camillo's behaviour?

I thought Leonetes' jealousy was very rash and unproven and cruel. He did not try the man in question, his supposed friend but went ahead with plans to poison him immediately. I don't know how much more rash one could be. In his rashness he wounds many lives. I think Camillo's behavior was commendable, even though he did oppose his monarch, and the monarch's were suppose to be appointed, or anointed by God. I still think he had a fairness of heart and took the risk to warn Polixenes. I think when Camillo seems to be convinced of the guilt of the two as lovers, in his reply to Leonetes, he is actually playing along with him and all the time knows he will intercept, whatever Leonetes wishes him to do towards the other king. I don't think for one, the killing of a king, from another realm was such a wise political move, in those days - it would only bring on war, and no doubt Camillo knew this and acted on the love of his country. He may also have seen the 'rashness' in Leonetes behavior and felt it would be temporary. To kill a king is a pretty huge offense.

sofia82

06-18-2008, 11:14 PM

I think often authors will do this. I have seen it before in stories that were suggested by other stories of an earlier origin. I think the switching of the characters may be significant, in a political sense, but I don't know enough about the politics in Shakespeare's time, to determine why he would switch them. I do think it is clever of Shakespeare.

Metamorphoses--Perdita is associated with Proserpina, whose emergence from the Underworld in Greek myth was supposed to herald the return of spring.

Ahan, here is a justification of changing of the places, as the Proserpina legend was in Sicily and Shakespeare tries to relate Perdita to this mythical character (a relationship between the plot of the lost flower girl and the classical story of Proserpina), he changes Sicilia with Bohemia.

I don't know if he is stretching his theory here but it certainly is a fascinating one. I never thought of the connecting when I first experienced the play (listened to it on audiofile). The wife is indeed falsely accused. There are definite parallels and all this would have occurred during or after Shakespeare's life. Elizabeth I sat on the throne of england during the time of Shakespeare. She often attended his performances. Perdita may represent Elizabeth in a sense, so maybe Shakespeare is trying to make a statement in this play. I happened to just see the HBO miniseries film last night "Elizabeth I" and I have to tell you, there were many supposed lovers who got the axe in those days. If you shone in the light of the Queen's favors all was rosy, but cross her and that could easily be your downfall. One tread a very thin line with serving all monarchs of that time.

The relationship between Hermione and Queen Anne Boleyn is interesting. I didn't read this play before, so I don't have any idea where they are similar exactly and if Shakespeare refers to this or not, Let's find any direct resemblance between these two during reading. It is apparent that both are accused of infidelity while there were innocence about Perdita and Elizabeth I, I don’t have any idea unless I read about Perdita in the play.

There is no one source for The Winter's Tale, although Shakespeare relies heavily on the works of Richard Greene, a London writer in the 1580s and '90s.

I've got a problem, is it Robert or Richard Greene?!

I would think making up a new thread would be your best bet. I think it would be great to make one up of all of Shakespeares performances on stage or screen in one separate thread, like a general 'Shakespeare Performance' thread perhaps. That would be truly entertaining and enlightening. Do you want to start that thread, sophia? I love stage and screen performances of Shakespeare particularly, so count me in. I know I can come up with some great photos; I copy them all the time for my own files. We could collaborate on getting it launched, if you want or if you need any help I would be glad to help out; just email me on here, if interested.

Thank you, Janine. I try to start this thread today!

I have several ideas for visual threads, myself; I may be acting on those by the weekend.

I'll be glad if I can participate in your visual threads and ideas!

I thought Leonetes' jealousy was very rash and unproven and cruel. He did not try the man in question, his supposed friend but went ahead with plans to poison him immediately. I don't know how much more rash one could be. In his rashness he wounds many lives. I think Camillo's behavior was commendable, even though he did oppose his monarch, and the monarch's were suppose to be appointed, or anointed by God. I still think he had a fairness of heart and took the risk to warn Polixenes. I think when Camillo seems to be convinced of the guilt of the two as lovers, in his reply to Leonetes, he is actually playing along with him and all the time knows he will intercept, whatever Leonetes wishes him to do towards the other king. I don't think for one, the killing of a king, from another realm was such a wise political move, in those days - it would only bring on war, and no doubt Camillo knew this and acted on the love of his country. He may also have seen the 'rashness' in Leonetes behavior and felt it would be temporary. To kill a king is a pretty huge offense.

It seems to me as a kind of madness, without any investigation and questioning deciding on poisoning a King is not rational at all. About Camillo's accepting Leonetes plot and then revealing the plot to Polixenes, here is the justification of his act:

I must believe you, sir.
I do, and will fetch off Bohemia for't; (ActI-ii 333-4)

In the footnote, it is said

Fetch off : perhaps deliberately ambiguous: 1)kill; 2)bear off, resuce.

From The Oxford Companion to Shakespeare:

The Winter's Tale is primarily a dramatization of Robert *Greene's prose romance Pandosto (subtitled The Triumph of Time, and also known as 'The History of Dorastus and Fawnia'), which had first appeared in 1588 and had gone through five editions before Shakespeare composed The Winter's Tale. Shakespeare had probably known this work for some time: in any case he was not working from its most recent edition, printed in 1607, since this text alters the wording of the oracle's declaration, and the play here follows the earlier editions verbatim. Shakespeare changes the principals' names (Pandosto becomes Leontes, Bellaria becomes Hermione; Egistus becomes Polixenes; Dorastus and Fawnia become Florizel and Perdita), exchanges the places of *Bohemia and Sicilia (though even in Greene Bohemia is miraculously
provided with a coast), and drastically alters the story's tragic ending. The statue scene is entirely Shakespeare's invention (though it draws in part on the story of Pygmalion and Galatea, told in *Ovid's Metamorphoses): in Pandosto, Bellaria is genuinely and finally dead after the trial scene, and when years later Fawnia is brought to Pandosto's court he falls in love with her. After learning of her identity, he commits suicide. The play has no other major sources, though it derives incidental details from a number of texts (besides Plutarch and Boccaccio). Polixenes' defence of art (4.4.89-97) borrows from a similar passage in *Puttenham's Art of English Poesy (1589), while Shakespeare's knowledge of *Giulio Romano (5.2.96) probably derives, whether at first or second hand, from Giorgio Vasari's Vite de' piu eccellenti pittori, scultori, e architettori (1550). The scene of the mother's statue in Paulina's gallery may have been influenced, too, by *James I'S commissioning of painted memorial sculptures of his predecessor *Elizabeth 1 (completed in 1607) and of his mother Mary Stuart (completed before 1612), both in *Westminster Abbey.

I think one question we have to answer is whether or not Leontes paranoid jealousy is in existence before Hermione convinces Polixenes to remain. That's what seems to set Leontes off.

I think so, before her convining of Polixenes to remain, he was there for nine months (Nine changes of the wat'ry star hath been (II-ii 1). And Leonete's obsessive questions about Mamillius being his son or not, resembling him or not! He even doubts the real identity of Mamillius as his own son. This remindes me of Othello!

And perceiving the amount of the speeches, Leonete's dialogue is not so long in comparison to Polixenes, it is Polixenes who is speaking and Leontes just answers in short dialogues which can represent some implicit anger and jealousy in Leonete. This is even before Herione's dialogues. Abd as they exit, Leonete starts his long dialogues full of rash, jealousy ....

Personally, I don't think we can pin down the exact moment or cause of Leontes jealousy. I agree with Janine, though. I think Leontes jealousy was very rash and very cruel, and I applaud Camillo's actions.
I agree to, but it cannot be the time Hermione convinces Polinexes, too.

It seems obvious to me that Leontes is suffering from some sort of paranoia, maybe sexual paranoia, and as Harold Bloom suggests, perhaps this is amplified by his close identification with Polixines.

Their closeness, going back to boyhood, is shown in the lines:

We were as twinn'd lambs that did frisk i' the sun
And bleat the one at the other: what chang'd
Was innocence for innocence: we knew not
The doctrine of ill-doing, nor dream'd
That any did. Had we pursu'd that life,
And our weak spirits ne'er been higher rear'd
With stronger blood, we should have answer'd heaven
Boldly 'not guilty', the imposition clear'd
Hereditary ours.

Bloom thinks the lines above suggest the Polixenes was not affected negatively in adulthood by the two men's closeness as boy, however, this closeness could be the root of Leontes jealousy, a jealousy that eventually drives him mad. I would agree with that.

I have to read harold Bloom's criticism.
Shakespeare, before revealing Leonete's evil plot and jealousy, refers to both of the kings as innocent, not guilty, through Camillo, Polinexes, and other characters, which we got surprised by Leonete's insane jealousy.

kasie

06-19-2008, 03:18 AM

Janine - the summary of the action was in my own words: if I had borrowed it, I would have acknowledged the source!

The idea that Leontes and his jealousy is based on Henry VIII is an interesting one but the play was first performed some eight years after the death of Elizabeth and some seventy-five years after the death of Anne Boleyn, so I think that the theme would act more as a resonance than a direct comparison in the minds of a contemporary audience. Also, the mother of the reigning monarch was beheaded for treachery, so it could be suggested Shakespeare was on dangerously unstable ground in addressing such a topic - was he making a form of apologia to James or was he in danger of reviving old grievances, both in the King's mind and those of the audience?

However to get back to the text - I do wonder if the doubt has been festering in Leontes' mind for some time. Hermione is in the advanced stages of pregnancy (she gives birth very soon after Polixenes' departure, we learn of it in Act II, sc ii) and Polixenes' first words are

'Nine changes of the watery star....'

If Leontes does not make the connection, I feel sure the audience is supposed to!

I agree with the idea of paranoia - Leontes' words become more and more incoherent as the scene progresses, he can scarcely utter a completed thought. Only he draws the conclusions he does from the the words and actions of his wife and best friend - the protestations of the queen's innocence go on into the next act. His irrational fears move him to swift action - no public accusations, he judges and condemns in the space of a scene, Polixenes' death is arranged within a few lines. I think Camillo's swift agreement is in the nature of a placation: having soothed the madman, he equally swiftly turns aboutface to save both Polixenes and himself.

This scene could well have been developed into a drama in its own right (and maybe it was - Shakespeare went on to write, or perhaps collaborate in Henry VIII - All is True two years later, in which Katherine is shown in a very sympathetic light) but for the present play it is enough to establish in dramatic shorthand the basis for the rest of the play, a wronged wife, a mourning husband, a daughter lost and found. I think we are to take Leontes' madness as read, an theatre audience does not have time to ponder the rights and wrongs of it.

bouquin

06-24-2008, 02:25 PM

So what do you think was the reason why Hermione was successful - whereas Leontes was not - in convincing Polixenes to stay longer? Was it something she actually said? Was it her charms?

Nightshade

06-24-2008, 03:09 PM

Ok its been a good while since I read any Shakespeare so it took a couple of readings to get my head around what they were saying, and I might as well admit it now I have an appualling habit of renaming Shakespeare's characters so that I can keep them straight, also spelling spelling spelling :rolleyes:
I also just wanted to add my first thought when I started reading was Bohemia? I'm in Bohemia! -this was a good choice :nod: :p

Can I just mention that Leon is not only an idiot but hypercritical and contradictory...he wants Poli to stay and then hes mad because he does stay the man was obviously insane.

I guess Id like to know what it was that suddenly set him off on the jealousy when seemingly seconds early there is no trace of it.

Virgil

06-24-2008, 03:13 PM

I'll be posting my thoughts shortly here. I wanted to read the play straight through first. I'm up to Act V. Then I'll reread the first act and comment.

Quark

06-24-2008, 05:35 PM

So what do you think was the reason why Hermione was successful - whereas Leontes was not - in convincing Polixenes to stay longer?

I suppose it's because Hermione argues more convincingly than her husband. Leontes merely asks him stay, but doesn't addresses any of the reasons Polixenes has for leaving. Hermione, however, actively refutes Polixenes main excuse for leaving. The Bohemian king fears that enemies will overwhelm his state while he's away, but Hermione soothes that fear with news she's heard.

Another cause for Hermione's success is that she's a much stronger character--as are most of the women in this play--than her husband. She treats this conversation like a battle and chides her husband for being too passive: "You, sir, charge him too coldly." She then threatens him (albeit playfully) with imprisonment if he tries to leave. Hermione convinces because she's both more tactical and stronger than her husband in this situation.

Ok its been a good while since I read any Shakespeare so it took a couple of readings to get my head around what they were saying

Yeah, Elizabethan drama has a language all its own. Linguists try to tell us that we're both speaking Modern English, but c'mon. This doesn't seem like English to me:

yet, good deed, Leontes,
I love thee not a jar o' th' clock behind
What lady she her lord. You'll stay?

Huh?

and I might as well admit it now I have an appualling habit of renaming Shakespeare's characters so that I can keep them straight, also spelling spelling spelling

I like shortening Leontes to Leon, though. He seems like a Leon to me.

I guess Id like to know what it was that suddenly set him off on the jealousy when seemingly seconds early there is no trace of it.

I don't know as if there is anything that sets him off. It seems like the whole point is that there isn't anything. Leontes (Leon) even admits so himself:

Affection! thy intention stabs the centre.
Thou dost make possible things not so held,
Communicat'st with dreams (how can this be?),
With what's unreal thou co-active art,
And fellow'st nothing. (I, ii, 138-142)

Leon's imagination is to blame.

Nightshade

06-24-2008, 05:58 PM

yet, good deed, Leontes,
I love thee not a jar o' th' clock behind
What lady she her lord. You'll stay?
Huh?

Actually I was wondering about that too, anyone care to explain/ decipher??

Quark

06-24-2008, 06:09 PM

Actually I was wondering about that too, anyone care to explain/ decipher??

It's tricky. Shakespeare's love of idiomatic phrases and overwrought constructions sometimes runs away with him. In this case, Hermione is trying to say she loves her husband as much as any lady loves her lord. "Good deed" means something like truly, and a "jar" of the clock is the same as a "tick" of the clock. "o' th'" are just contractions, and the final phrase "what lady she her lord" is simply the part where Hermione equates her love to a typical lady's.

Janine

06-24-2008, 07:06 PM

It's tricky. Shakespeare's love of idiomatic phrases and overwrought constructions sometimes runs away with him. In this case, Hermione is trying to say she loves her husband as much as any lady loves her lord. "Good deed" means something like truly, and a "jar" of the clock is the same as a "tick" of the clock. "o' th'" are just contractions, and the final phrase "what lady she her lord" is simply the part where Hermione equates her love to a typical lady's.

Thanks Quark, that truly helped. I guess we know who we will be consulting now on Shakespeare lingo. I often listen to certain old phrases he uses over and over again without completely understanding them.

I have some comments to make on this first part of the text and why Leontes is so rash in his judgement of Hermione. I think this is somewhat common in Shakespeare's plays, to get advance the plot quickly; afterall, originally these plays were shown onstage and had to grab the attention of the audience within the first few minutes.
I think one can see pretty quickly how suspicious a person Leontes tends to be. He is definitely rash in his first impressions, but then as more is presented to him, he works himself up into a furry, which he builds up his extreme suspicious thoughts, until they become uncontrollable. He definitely 'over-reacts' and that is necessary for the plot, to take on momentum, from the beginning of the play. One is quickly drawn in by his irratic and rash behavior; this makes Leontes an fascinating character. The way he refers to Hermione and the other king teasing with each other, even the mention of 'paddlin' in their palms', 'kissing on the cheeks', reminds me greatly of Iago's own speech in "Othello" when he speaks to the audience and then later relays what he has falsely observed to Othello. As with Leontes, Othello only needs a spark of suspicion to set him, completely on the wrong course. Of course, he also has the help of Iago, who orchestrates the whole downfall of Othello and Desdemona; but Othello is not blameless as well.
Ok, in this play, Leontes is suspicious on his own accord, but he keeps asking if others have noticed, I believe. I need to listen more closely to my audiofile, while reading the exact text. I had hoped to post some text here, to show the parallels or at least, to point out the parts in this play, that seem to fed Leontes suspicions. On my very 'animated' audio recording of the play being performed, it does seem that Hermione is being very intimate in conversaton with the other king and they are both laughing, giggling, being wry and teasing, almost like flirting; some jealous husband could definitely interpret it that way. One can well imagine how King Leontes is becoming more and more wary of their position, and of his. Of course, we know how unfounded this all is. But from L's perspective, one can see how he is being left out of their conversation and in standing asside and speaking to the audience his inner thoughts, he only sees what he believes to be true in every word the two 'unsuspecting' friends are conveying to each other. It is more the subtext, that apparently is causing Leontes to question the faithfulness of his wife. All the little gestures and laughs are really adding to what he now believes is truth.

Quark

06-24-2008, 07:41 PM

I had hoped to post some text here, to show the parallels or at least, to point out the parts in this play, that seem to fed Leontes suspicions.

There are a few parts of the conversation that might set him off. First, Polixenes suggests that when women enter his and Leontes's lives they lost their innocence. That might make Leontes suspicious. Also, Hermione's tone is very animated when talking with Polixenes, but somewhat less spirited with Leontes. She also disagrees with him, and she even puts her love of both men on even ground. Hermione says,

I have spoke to th' purpose twice:
The one for ever earn'd a royal husband;
Th' other for some while a friend. (I,ii,108-10)

Leontes obviously feels left out of the conversation because he doesn't even follow it. He asks his wife "Is he won yet?" (83). Finally, the handclasp is the last straw. Earlier, Leontes had mentioned that he and his wife clasped hands when they were married, and now he sees his wife clasping hands with Polixenes.

Of course, it should be mentioned that this is all rather flimsy evidence of infidelity.

Janine

06-24-2008, 08:58 PM

There are a few parts of the conversation that might set him off. First, Polixenes suggests that when women enter his and Leontes's lives they lost their innocence. That might make Leontes suspicious. Also, Hermione's tone is very animated when talking with Polixenes, but somewhat less spirited with Leontes. She also disagrees with him, and she even puts her love of both men on even ground. Hermione says,

That was one of the parts, I was thinking of but, mostly the way Hermione was so 'animated', when talking to Polixenes - she seemed to be thoroughly enjoying herself; for that matter so did he; and remember, Polixenes has a queen in his own land. Doesn't it seem odd he would leave her for so long? I think the time reference someone did mentioned, amounted to how much actual time, that he had been in this kingdom visiting? There were other passages and I will find them later and post them to show how Leontes builds and builds his suspicions. I wish I had the time now, but I don't; you know how that goes, Quark. ;)

Leontes obviously feels left out of the conversation because he doesn't even follow it. He asks his wife "Is he won yet?" (83). Finally, the handclasp is the last straw. Earlier, Leontes had mentioned that he and his wife clasped hands when they were married, and now he sees his wife clasping hands with Polixenes.

True enough; I have to review that part. He did seem to step asside on his own accord. Interesting, Quark, that you point out the handclasp. Yes, that would relate to both of the times and somehow equate in Leonte's jealous mind (perhaps subconsiously) that this is rather significant that his wife has so easily convinced his friend to stay when even he could not imploy him to do so. The handclasps links the two events.

Of course, it should be mentioned that this is all rather flimsy evidence of infidelity.

Of course, but had he not acted rationally instead of rashly, there would be no basis for this play. This beginning reminds me of the Thomas Hardy novel "The Mayor of Casterbridge" in which the main character, Michael Henchard, in a irrational fit of drunkedness, auctions off his wife and baby at a fair. The rest of his life is trying to pay atonement for the stupid and impulsive act he did to begin with. I somehow see the same kind of quick rashness being portrayed in the first scene in this play as in the novel. From one very poor decision all fate then follows. In this case, the Oracle is summoned to decide where the truth lies.

Virgil

06-24-2008, 09:01 PM

You guys are flying ahead of me. :bawling: I'll have to hurry up.

Janine

06-25-2008, 01:33 AM

sofia82

06-25-2008, 02:07 AM

Virgil and Antiquarian, take heart - I feel just as behind actually; I still need to re-listen to the audiofile; should be doing that now. We are only discussing why Leontes seems so rash in his assumptions. We haven't gotten very far into the text, I don't think; at least I hope not.

I'm behind, too. I have to re-read Act I to follow this dicussion in detail. also read the whole play to know what others talking about and don't get confused.

Those who interested in this play, I started a thread on the perfoming aspect of Shakespeare's plays which will help. This is the link (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36040), I'll be glad if you share your ideas and especially photos.

Janine

06-25-2008, 02:21 AM

I'm behind, too. I have to re-read Act I to follow this dicussion in detail. also read the whole play to know what others talking about and don't get confused.

Those who interested in this play, I started a thread on the perfoming aspect of Shakespeare's plays which will help. This is the link (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36040), I'll be glad if you share your ideas and especially photos.

Hi Sophia, must be day there for you; it is night and time for me to depart for sleepland.:lol: I posted one thing in your thread, so far. I hope you like it. I have been collecting some photos part of today, but getting those together with some statistics is not easy; hope to post some more tomorrow. Glad you linked the new thread with this thread. It should be great fun, and quite educational. I was just watching a You tube of a ballet dancer I saw tonight on a DVD of "Romeo and Juliet". I will post something on her and her newer production tomorrow. She was extraordinary; so graceful and lovely.

I feel behind in the reading, as well; don't worry - we will all catch up soon. This discussion goes on the whole summer, right?

Virgil

06-25-2008, 07:13 AM

Virgil and Antiquarian, take heart - I feel just as behind actually; I still need to re-listen to the audiofile; should be doing that now. We are only discussing why Leontes seems so rash in his assumptions. We haven't gotten very far into the text, I don't think; at least I hope not.

Why Leontes is rash is the key to the play. It needs full discussion. I have thoughts on it, but not ready to express them yet. I completed my full read last night and now I just need to read Act I again, while taking notes. I may post my thoughts on this tonight.

Nightshade

06-25-2008, 09:45 AM

notes?! :eek2: does this mean Ill be spending all summer semi studying?

sofia82

06-25-2008, 11:53 AM

notes?! :eek2: does this mean Ill be spending all summer semi studying?

Yes, it seems so. I have to read Act I again to find this rashness in Leon line by line and other subjects, too. First of all, I want to finish the whole play.

Quark

06-25-2008, 03:50 PM

Doesn't it seem odd he would leave her for so long? I think the time reference someone did mentioned, amounted to how much actual time, that he had been in this kingdom visiting?

I'm not sure exactly how long Polixenes has been visiting, but it seems like the first scene with the lords justifies his visit. I didn't see anything wrong with the visit in itself.

The handclasps links the two events.

Wait, which two events get linked?

Of course, but had he not acted rationally instead of rashly, there would be no basis for this play. This beginning reminds me of the Thomas Hardy novel "The Mayor of Casterbridge"

That's a good parallel. In both cases, rashness is the character's inherent flaw. Circumstances conspire to give them the opportunity to act on their shortcoming, but they don't create the inherent flaw that the characters have. The only difference between between the two protagonists is that Henchard's rashness is more of a permanent trait and Leontes's is more like temporary madness.

Why Leontes is rash is the key to the play.

Well, yes and no. Discovering what makes him susceptible to jealousy seems important, but pinpointing the exact moment when he becomes jealous or what actions make him jealous are less important. When isn't important because Leontes becomes noticeably envious 150 lines into the play. It hardly seems worth it to pour over the text to pick which individual line is the turning point. I suppose one could argue over whether it starts before or after the beginning play, but there isn't anything to make us conclude one way or the other. Similarly, I don't see the importance of the actions that prompt Leontes jealous rage. I think we can all agree that there's little provocation. As I pointed out earlier, Leontes even agrees that there's no foundation for his jealousy. I'll requote this so that no one has to flip to the previous page:

Affection! thy intention stabs the centre.
Thou dost make possible things not so held,
Communicat'st with dreams (how can this be?),
With what's unreal thou co-active art,
And fellow'st nothing. (I, ii, 138-142)

Leontes, himself, is to blame. This contrasts with Shakespeare's other jealous protagonist Othello, who is forced into jealousy by circumstances. In that play, the reader is curious to know what actions caused his downfall--after all there is a plot to this effect. The jealousy in The Winters Tale, however, lacks any rational basis. If we're to look for a cause, then, we have to inspect Leontes character more than the external actions which are irrelevant to Leontes.

The most salient characteristic of Leontes is his weakness, and this makes him very susceptible to jealousy. I already talked a little about his overly passive method of argument, but other details indicate the weakness of his character. He mentions his his heart having tremors, and the speech I quoted above shows his inability to control his own mind. This would make him susceptible to any slight impression that comes his way. Weakness, then, is probably his largest shortcoming, but there are possibly others. One could argue that his paranoid and cynical outlook is a result of his jealousy, but it might also be a preexisting condition of Leontes's mind.

I completed my full read last night and now I just need to read Act I again, while taking notes. I may post my thoughts on this tonight.

Oh, this better be good Virgil. You keep building the anticipation.

bouquin

06-26-2008, 06:05 AM

I suppose it's because Hermione argues more convincingly than her husband. Leontes merely asks him stay, but doesn't addresses any of the reasons Polixenes has for leaving. Hermione, however, actively refutes Polixenes main excuse for leaving. The Bohemian king fears that enemies will overwhelm his state while he's away, but Hermione soothes that fear with news she's heard.

Another cause for Hermione's success is that she's a much stronger character--as are most of the women in this play--than her husband. She treats this conversation like a battle and chides her husband for being too passive: "You, sir, charge him too coldly." She then threatens him (albeit playfully) with imprisonment if he tries to leave. Hermione convinces because she's both more tactical and stronger than her husband in this situation.

Perhaps Leontes is jealous as well of Hermione's diplomatic flair and other talents?

sofia82

06-26-2008, 12:14 PM

Perhaps Leontes is jealous as well of Hermione's diplomatic flair and other talents?

i think so. It seems that Leon is jealous of Hermione herself because of her talents more than her relationship with Pil.

Virgil

06-26-2008, 02:33 PM

Well, yes and no. Discovering what makes him susceptible to jealousy seems important, but pinpointing the exact moment when he becomes jealous or what actions make him jealous are less important. When isn't important because Leontes becomes noticeably envious 150 lines into the play. It hardly seems worth it to pour over the text to pick which individual line is the turning point. I suppose one could argue over whether it starts before or after the beginning play, but there isn't anything to make us conclude one way or the other. Similarly, I don't see the importance of the actions that prompt Leontes jealous rage. I think we can all agree that there's little provocation. As I pointed out earlier, Leontes even agrees that there's no foundation for his jealousy. I'll requote this so that no one has to flip to the previous page:

I did say "why" not "when." Don't you know your interrogative pronouns? ;)

Oh, this better be good Virgil. You keep building the anticipation.
I hope it will be good. Tonight I promise. I had something yesterday happen which threw me out of kilter all day.

Quark

06-26-2008, 03:56 PM

I did say "why" not "when." Don't you know your interrogative pronouns? ;)

I'm sure I'm quite horrible with pronouns (honestly, who isn't?), but I think the problem wasn't with pronouns. It was actually with paragraphs. I crudely sutured two separate ideas together in one clump of text rather than give them their own paragraphs. Specifically, I tried to answer both "when" and "why," and it got confusing. I answered the "when" first, but later I tackled "why" as well. Here's the part where I talk about why Leontes is jealous, and how important it is to the play:

what actions make him jealous are less important

Similarly, I don't see the importance of the actions that prompt Leontes jealous rage. I think we can all agree that there's little provocation. As I pointed out earlier, Leontes even agrees that there's no foundation for his jealousy. I'll requote this so that no one has to flip to the previous page:

I go on to say, though, that we should look for Leontes motives within his own character. Since the provocation is so minute, it really can't be the source of his jealousy. Really, it has to come from Leontes himself. Therefore, rather than pour over the first 150 lines trying to find what makes Leontes jealous, we should ask ourselves what part of Leontes is prone to jealousy.

I hope it will be good. Tonight I promise. I had something yesterday happen which threw me out of kilter all day.

That's good. Are you going to write something on Leontes?

Perhaps Leontes is jealous as well of Hermione's diplomatic flair and other talents?

i think so. It seems that Leon is jealous of Hermione herself because of her talents more than her relationship with Pil.

That may be a stretch. The only line that directly refers to that is when Leontes points out the obvious and says that he would not have been able to make him stay. Unless you perceive bitterness in his tone, I don't see any jealousy there. At least, there isn't anything in the words themselves that would make me suspicious. Can you think of any other lines that might make Leontes seem jealous of Hermione's skilled diplomacy?

Janine

06-26-2008, 08:50 PM

Nightshade

06-26-2008, 08:57 PM

Virgil

06-26-2008, 10:10 PM

I'm not sure how I catch up. I cannot respond to all points made. Let me get to what I think is critical.

I think it of the utmost importance to understanding this play in answering the question of why Leontes turns on his wife and friends. This is the act from which all other acts of the play stem, the first cause, if you will. I find Act I, Scene 2 an powerful and intense scene. As good as anything in Shakespeare.

I thought Leonetes' jealousy was very rash and unproven and cruel. He did not try the man in question, his supposed friend but went ahead with plans to poison him immediately. I don't know how much more rash one could be. In his rashness he wounds many lives.
Is it just jealously? It is possible to read it thus. Unfortunately it goes beyond the bounds of common jealousy. Perhaps he interprets Hermione's persuasion as a indication of a relationship between Polixenes and Hermione, but look at Leontes in his conversation with Camillo:

CAMILLO
He would not stay at your petitions: made
His business more material.

LEONTES
Didst perceive it?

Aside

They're here with me already, whispering, rounding
'Sicilia is a so-forth:' 'tis far gone,
When I shall gust it last. How came't, Camillo,
That he did stay?
256-62

"Whispering"?

And when he asks Camillo directly about his wife:

LEONTES
Ay, but why?

CAMILLO
To satisfy your highness and the entreaties
Of our most gracious mistress.

LEONTES
Satisfy!
The entreaties of your mistress! satisfy!
Let that suffice. I have trusted thee, Camillo,
With all the nearest things to my heart, as well
My chamber-councils, wherein, priest-like, thou
Hast cleansed my bosom, I from thee departed
Thy penitent reform'd: but we have been
Deceived in thy integrity, deceived
In that which seems so.
276-87

Decived? But based on what does he make this assertion? "IN that which seems so" Leontes is seeing something that is beyond the surface. And of couse Camillo doesn't see it and asserts that. But here's Leontes:

LEONTES
Is whispering nothing?
Is leaning cheek to cheek? is meeting noses?
Kissing with inside lip? stopping the career
Of laughing with a sigh?--a note infallible
Of breaking honesty--horsing foot on foot?
Skulking in corners? wishing clocks more swift?
Hours, minutes? noon, midnight? and all eyes
Blind with the pin and web but theirs, theirs only,
That would unseen be wicked? is this nothing?
Why, then the world and all that's in't is nothing;
The covering sky is nothing; Bohemia nothing;
My wife is nothing; nor nothing have these nothings,
If this be nothing.
334-46

Again whisperings, he's hearing things. Then "cheek to cheek" is quite possible something he's seen. Faces accidently coming together. Then "meeting of noses"? Huh? Still possible, but "kissing with the inside lip"? Wait a second, that's something that is either true or false. And then

stopping the career
Of laughing with a sigh?--a note infallible
Of breaking honesty--horsing foot on foot?
He's really seeing a lot of things here. And then,

Skulking in corners? wishing clocks more swift?
Hours, minutes? noon, midnight? and all eyes
Blind with the pin and web but theirs, theirs only,
Wow, now he's reading their minds, "wishing the clocks ore swift." This is hulluciantion. The man is sick, mentally ill. And Camillo even responds as such:

CAMILLO
Good my lord, be cured
Of this diseased opinion, and betimes;
For 'tis most dangerous.
347-49

More than the opinion is diseased. The King is paranoid. Read over this scene again and notice two operative words that keep coming up: "fear" and "disease". This is not the same jealousy of Othello. This is a mental illness I think.

It seems to me as a kind of madness, without any investigation and questioning deciding on poisoning a King is not rational at all. About Camillo's accepting Leonetes plot and then revealing the plot to Polixenes, here is the justification of his act:

Yes I agree. It is not rational, but I think it's more than a jumbled mind as in Othello. Here it is a diseased mind. I think such a distinction can be made.

What do you make of Leontes' jealousy? And what do you make of Camillo's behaviour?
I think Camillo's behavior is quite natural and rational. He sees a sick King who orders him to poison another. I guess for a Renaissance courtier he may be more noble than the average since he does not carry out the task. But he pulls together a plan to escape with Polixenes and saves himself as well. By failing to carry out the task, he will no doubt be killed.

I think one question we have to answer is whether or not Leontes paranoid jealousy is in existence before Hermione convinces Polixenes to remain. That's what seems to set Leontes off.

well, that is a good question, and we don't quite see it at the very beginning of the scene. He wishes Poli to stay and actually pushes the Queen to persuade his friend. It does seem odd. But the hullucinations Leontes mentions later are things could only have occured earlier than this scene. So I would have to think that at the beginning of the scene Leontes is just being politically savy.

LadyWentworth

06-26-2008, 11:49 PM

Ah, I see this is the chosen one. :)

Boy, I know we are only on Act I, but the conversation has really started. I will have to dig out my Complete Works and get started then, don't ya think? :)

I read over the comments, but I will have to read this play again before I can comment on anything. So I think I should get started then before I get too far behind. :)

Virgil

06-27-2008, 12:02 AM

Quark

06-27-2008, 12:21 AM

Unfortunately, I might have to sit this one out; I am at my library now and they will close down in a few minutes - computer woes - Virgil can fill you all in on my troubles. I won't be able to post again until Monday unless someone can fix my problems on my PC. They are truly dire.

I was wondering where you disappeared to, Janine. Hopefully you can solve the computer problem soon.

I think it of the utmost importance to understanding this play in answering the question of why Leontes turns on his wife and friends. This is the act from which all other acts of the play stem, the first cuase, if you will.

That's definitely true. Leontes's jealousy is the germ of the conflict, and the rest of the plot grows out from it. What do you think his envy says about the play, though? If we agree that it's important, then we have to tell how it's important. It certainly sets things in motion, but what else. Does it effect the themes of the play? Perhaps it changes how we think of the other characters?

Perhaps he interprets Hermione's persuasion as a indication of a relationship between Polixenes and Hermione

I think so. The quotes you posted seem to show that. Janine and I posted some other parts of the conversation that prompt his jealousy, too. Janine pointed out that the tone Hermione uses with Polixenes is much warmer than that which she regards her husband. The Leontes's first aside shows that he's bothered by this. Also, I posted something about the uncomfortable association Leontes keeps making. He mentions the handclasp as a symbol of matrimony, and then Hermione clasps hands with Polixenes. This might prompt his jealousy, too. When we look at all of this combined it's easy to see how Leontes's mind could consider infedelity. Leontes, however, goes beyond that. His imagination turns it into a certainty. He bemoans this (in the quote I keep posting), but he's powerless to stop it.

More than the opinion is diseased. The King is paranoid. Read over this scene again and notice two operative words that keep coming up: "fear" and "disease". This is not the same jealousy of Othello. This is a mental illness I think.

It's clear that he's acting irrationally, but haven't we all done this? We sometimes get an idea, and then start reinterpreting everything around us with that idea. Sometimes this can get out of hand, too. Leontes is obviously an extreme example, but I don't think what he's doing is necessarily deranged. "All too human" may be a better description.

Virgil

06-27-2008, 12:38 AM

I was wondering where you disappeared to, Janine. Hopefully you can solve the computer problem soon.

Yes, she wanted me to tell you. But she beat me to it. She may be out of a computer for a while.

That's definitely true. Leontes's jealousy is the germ of the conflict, and the rest of the plot grows out from it. What do you think his envy says about the play, though? If we agree that it's important, then we have to tell how it's important. It certainly sets things in motion, but what else. Does it effect the themes of the play? Perhaps it changes how we think of the other characters?
Absolutely we need to put it in the context of the entire play. Why not wait until we reach some conclusions on the other Acts?

It's clear that he's acting irrationally, but haven't we all done this? We sometimes get an idea, and then start reinterpreting everything around us with that idea. Sometimes this can get out of hand, too. Leontes is obviously an extreme example, but I don't think what he's doing is necessarily deranged. "All too human" may be a better description.
Oh? Ploting to kill your friend and throwing your wife in jail all on the basis of one incident? I think we're going to disagree on this Quark. Why does Shakespeare use the word "disease" several times throughout the act?

Quark

06-27-2008, 01:00 AM

Yes, she wanted me to tell you. But she beat me to it. She may be out of a computer for a while.

Do you know if she's going to be back Monday. She mentioned that, but I didn't know if that meant she was getting a new computer then or just going back to the library then. I'm wondering whether she's going to be back for the next Chekhov story. Any guess?

Absolutely we need to put it in the context of the entire play. Why not wait until we reach some conclusions on the other Acts?

That's probably best, but we should keep in mind how Leontes's jealousy relates to the rest of the story as we continue.

Oh? Ploting to kill your friend and throwing your wife in jail all on the basis of one incident? I think we're going to disagree on this Quark. Why does Shakespeare use the word "disease" several times throughout the act?

I don't think the number of incidents makes any difference. One incident is enough to intoduce the idea into Leontes head, and then his weak mind gives way to his imagination and mood. One step leads naturally to the other. It's regretable, but not insane. He uses the word diseased because his mind has been taken over by jealousy and he doesn't believe he can overcome it. A disease is similar. I think it makes much more sense to consider him weakminded than actually insane. It's hard to imagine that he snaps into insanity and out of it so quickly. That seems more like the behavoir of someone swept away by the thoughts of the moment.

LadyWentworth

06-27-2008, 01:05 AM

It would be nice if you could join us. :) You're not far behind. You can read the first act in a half hour.
Yes, I can read a play fairly quickly. I just don't anticipate doing it for a couple of days yet. It is so hot here. Honestly, when it is this hot and humid out, I find it very hard to concentrate on anything. I don't plan on reading it until at least Sunday. It will be cooler outside then. :) So I probably won't be making any comments until sometime around then. :)

sofia82

06-27-2008, 05:26 AM

Scheherazade

06-27-2008, 07:39 AM

and remember, Polixenes has a queen in his own land. Doesn't it seem odd he would leave her for so long? I think the time reference someone did mentioned, amounted to how much actual time, that he had been in this kingdom visiting? At the opening of Scene II, Pol says:

Nine changes of the watery star hath been
The shepherd's note since we have left our throne
Without a burthen:

So it has been 9 months since his arrival (yes, it is an interesting choice of period on Shakespeare's part). I am not sure if it is too long considering the travelling conditions of the day. Probably it would take them weeks to get to one place so they might stay longer than we think it is acceptable today.

(As a side note, this is something I find interesting in 18th/19th century books as well. They go to visit their friends/relatives and stay for months!)

Leontes, himself, is to blame. This contrasts with Shakespeare's other jealous protagonist Othello, who is forced into jealousy by circumstances. I agree with this. Othello listens to Iago and falls into a jealous rage while Leon fails to listen to Camillo when he is in a jealous rage. The differents between Iago and Camillo is very essential, I believe, it is this difference that changes the flow of events in both plays.

Hence, in my opinion, it is Camillo's reaction to it ,as well as Leon's jealousy, that is crucial to the development of the play. If he went along with Leon's plans, I don't think they would a play at all (not in this sense at least).

Janine pointed out that the tone Hermione uses with Polixenes is much warmer than that which she regards her husband. The Leontes's first aside shows that he's bothered by this. Also, I posted something about the uncomfortable association Leontes keeps making. He mentions the handclasp as a symbol of matrimony, and then Hermione clasps hands with Polixenes. This might prompt his jealousy, too. I agree with this. Ironically immediately after Leon uses handclasp as a symbol of agreement on marriage, Hermione holds hands with Pol, calling him a friend... which sets Leon's mind working.

"Whispering"?I don't think Leon means this literally as such. I think he means "are they already whispering (gossiping) behind my back?"; not because he has actually seen (or thinks he has seen) anyone doing so.

Jealousy is a funny business... If one is suspicious, they will see many "signs" and read between the lines in the way that it suits their "theory".
Decived? But based on what does he make this assertion? Leon thinks he has been deceived by Camillo's intergrity because he thinks Camillo is using the word "satisfy" with double meaning and is upset that Camillo can make fun of the situation.
Again whisperings, he's hearing things. Then "cheek to cheek" is quite possible something he's seen. Faces accidently coming together. Then "meeting of noses"? Huh? Still possible, but "kissing with the inside lip"? Wait a second, that's something that is either true or false. And then...
Here, I think Leon is suggesting all the things that might happen when two people have affair, not because he has actually seen these things or knows them for sure. Now that it is certain in his mind that they are having an affair, he simply fills in the gaps himself.
It's clear that he's acting irrationally, but haven't we all done this? We sometimes get an idea, and then start reinterpreting everything around us with that idea. Sometimes this can get out of hand, too. Leontes is obviously an extreme example, but I don't think what he's doing is necessarily deranged. "All too human" may be a better description.I think I also agree with Quark in that Leon is not mentally deranged or ill but is simply prone to jealousy and what follows it.

Virgil

06-27-2008, 08:06 AM

At the opening of Scene II, Pol says:

Nine changes of the watery star hath been
The shepherd's note since we have left our throne
Without a burthen:

So it has been 9 months since his arrival (yes, it is an interesting choice of period on Shakespeare's part). I am not sure if it is too long considering the travelling conditions of the day. Probably it would take them weeks to get to one place so they might stay longer than we think it is acceptable today.

It is an unusual way to describe the lunar cycle. Seems like Shakespeare was intentionally striving for a water image. I hadn't noticed on my first reading, but does water figure prominantly in the play? Or is it the quality of non-solidity that Shakespeare is emphasing?

(As a side note, this is something I find interesting in 18th/19th century books as well. They go to visit their friends/relatives and stay for months!)
Thank God that tradition has ended. :lol: I can't tolerate house guests beyond few days or even a day.

I agree with this. Othello listens to Iago and falls into a jealous rage while Leon fails to listen to Camillo when he is in a jealous rage. The differents between Iago and Camillo is very essential, I believe, it is this difference that changes the flow of events in both plays.
Yes, I'm agreeing with it too. There is a difference between Othello's jealousy and Leontes. Leontes is self derived, which seems to me the product of a sick mind.

I don't Leon means this literally as such. I think he means "are they already whispering (gossiping) behind my back?"; not because he has actually seen (or thinks he has seen) anyone doing so.

Jealousy is a funny business... If one is suspicious, they will see many "signs" and read between the lines in the way that it suits their "theory".

Leon thinks he has been deceived by Camillo's intergrity because he thinks Camillo is using the word "satisfy" with double meaning and is upset that Camillo can make fun of the situation.Here, I think Leon is suggesting all the things that might happen when two people have affair, not because he has actually seen these things or knows them for sure. Now that it is certain in his mind that they are having an affair, he simply fills in the gaps himself.I think I also agree with Quark in that Leon is not mentally deranged or ill but is simply prone to jealousy and what follows it.

Well, yes, and one has to question whether Leontes metal state is normal. A mature person doesn't see sign after sign and fill in gaps with thoughts. A sane person doesn't jump to the conclusion of having his friend and wife killed after one little incident. Remmber it is just once that his wife has persuaded Poli. Just once, and Leontes is building all sorts of rash thoughts upon it. I mentioned elsewhere that a long time ago my mother experienced paranoia (along side with depression). This is exactly what she did, fill in gaps of signs with whisperings she thought she heard, images she thought she saw, collusions and conspiracies she felt existed; of course my mother's had nothing to do with jealousy. I don't know if anyone here has encountered a mentally ill person who suffers so, but for the most part they seem normal. Until one starts talking in details about things that they have on their minds. I don't think Shakespeare understood fully the nature of mental illness and especially paranoia, but certainly he must have had around him people who suffered. And there was no medications to help in those days, so I bet it was around daily. All I can say is read through this act again and highlight how many times the word "fear" and "disease" comes up. If I have time later, I'll number it.

sofia82

06-27-2008, 10:25 AM

Thank God that tradition has ended. :lol: I can't tolerate house guests beyond few days or even a day.

I think it's because of this that the tradition chnaged. Stay for some months, make the host jealous or suspicious, which caused murders ... they stopped satying for long so they saved their own lives, and the whole member of the family they visit :D (just joking). I'll be back in a few minutes Hope so!

A question, does any one know about Derrida's deconstructive reading of The Winter's Tale?
Or this one, Shakespeare and Hospitality: Opening The Winter's Tale by David Ruite?

Shakespeare, as usual, starts the first scene as the introduction to what is the play about and what is going to happen in it. From the beginning he refers to the difference between Sicilia and Bohemia which will be represented through the play; Sicilia as the part of tragic, gloomy aspect of the play, and Bohemia as the comedy aspect.
In this first scene we are introduced to unalterable friendship of these two kings. When something emphasized so much we should wait that the opposite happens:

CAMILLO Sicilia cannot show himself over-kind to
Bohemia. They were trained together in their
childhoods; and there rooted betwixt them then such
an affection, which cannot choose but branch now.
Since their more mature dignities and royal necessities
made separation of their society, their encounters,
though not personal, have been royally attorneyed with
interchange of gifts, letters, loving embassies; that they
have seemed to be together, though absent, shook
hands, as over a vast, and embraced, as it were, from
the ends of opposed winds. The heavens continue
their loves!

Or

ARCHIDAMUS I think there is not in the world either
malice or matter to alter it.

From the beginning it is obvious the conflict is between these two kings. Ok! It's so obvious, and need no mention ;)

Reading the first part of scene ii, (the dialogue between Leo. and Pol) Leo. answers Pol, who talks in long sentences, in an unkind or cold manner and in short. Look at his speeches

LEONTES Stay your thanks a while;
And pay them when you part.

LEONTES We are tougher, brother,
Than you can put us to’t.

LEONTES One seven-night longer.

LEONTES We’ll part the time between’s then; and
in that
I’ll no gainsaying.

And in the end:

LEONTES Tongue-tied, our Queen?
Speak you.

This shows that Leon is eager he stays or not? Who is persuaded by these cold requests and sometimes I think bitter requests to stay for even a day! Not, me! This occurred to me that he is playing or making a trap maybe to prove his suspicion is true and prove the affair between his queen and Pol. He has something in his mind before the queen's persuasion and Pol's acceptance. And Leon says something but means another thing, for example:

LEONTES Stay your thanks a while;
And pay them when you part.

Maybe, saying wait and see the end then decide how to thank me! A kind of evil thinking but not representing that. Sorry but I look at this like a jealous one as Leon is.

I and bouquin agreed Leon is jealous of her queen in policy and her being active and a kind of strong character, I find more hints about this in the next scenes. In scene ii, Hermione tries to teach him how to ask Pol to stay and it is a kind of educating him in front of his friend.

HERMIONE I had thought, sir, to have held my
peace until
You have drawn oaths from him not to stay. You, sir,
Charge him too coldly. Tell him, you are sure
All in Bohemia’s well; this satisfaction
The by-gone day proclaim’d: say this to him,
He’s beat from his best ward.

Can it be interpreted that she was sure Leon is not capable of persuading Pol. Even she doesn't say it to Pol but telling Leon what and how to say it.

Leontes,
I love thee not a jar o’ the clock behind
What lady-she her lord.

And here, she is saying I love thee, Leon. What is the necessity of this line in the middle of learning him how to ask Pol to stay? And then immediately talking to Pol. I cannot understand this! She is talking to leon but she means Pol? Imagine a person thinking of her wife's infidelity what thinks of this? Then suddenly Leon disappears and is ignored. It seems as if he is not present in this scene, being ignored. Another reason for his jealousy. Even there's been no affair between Her and Pol this can make a husband be angry: a king, a husband being ignored because of his friend.

Look at this (I hope I won't interpret so pessimistically, but anyway)

HERMIONE Was not my lord
The verier wag o’ the two?

And Pol (it seems to me if I made mistake correct it) says they were equal, denying that he's superior to him in cleverness or being amusing (I'm not sure about the meaning of this). Leon hearing all this, another reason for such a diseased mind to be suspicious.

LEONTES Is he won yet?

And he tries to make them see him … or be sure to do his plan.

Quark

06-27-2008, 11:42 AM

I am not sure if it is too long considering the travelling conditions of the day. Probably it would take them weeks to get to one place so they might stay longer than we think it is acceptable today.

I'm not entirely sure, either. I would think that it was pretty normal--given, as you point out, the travel time.

It is an unusual way to describe the lunar cycle. Seems like Shakespeare was intentionally striving for a water image. I hadn't noticed on my first reading, but does water figure prominantly in the play? Or is it the quality of non-solidity that Shakespeare is emphasing?

I hadn't noticed that before. Maybe he is developing a theme here. We'll have to consider that as we move into the other sections.

Well, yes, and one has to question whether Leontes metal state is normal.

I don't mean to belabor the point too much, and I definitely don't want to get into a argument over what constitutes a normal mental state. I just want to make it clear what Leontes problem actually is. I don't necessarily object to calling Leontes insane (personally, I wouldn't, but some would). I do object, however, to him being characterized as insanely jealous. Leontes problem isn't that he's jealous. It's that he starts drawing unrealistic conclusions and then overreacting. Leontes says admits this himself:

Affection! thy intention stabs the centre.
Thou dost make possible things not so held,
Communicat'st with dreams (how can this be?),
With what's unreal thou co-active art,
And fellow'st nothing. (I, ii, 138-142)

He doesn't just do this with jealousy, either. We have to remember that he also does this with his repentence. Whether acting like this is insane or not is debateable, but I just want to make clear what Leontes is actually doing.

Shakespeare, as usual, starts the first scene as the introduction to what is the play about and what is going to happen in it.

Yeah, the two lords expose some of the plot. They also set the tone for the next scene.

I'll try to respond to the rest of your post when I come back.

bouquin

06-27-2008, 03:22 PM

From the beginning he refers to the difference between Sicilia and Bohemia which will be represented through the play; Sicilia as the part of tragic, gloomy aspect of the play, and Bohemia as the comedy aspect.

Sicilia is the setting of tragedy and Bohemia the setting of comedy. And yet, Sicilia is supposed to be where the entertainment is more festive and gay, the food and drinks more delectable (Act I, Scene i, 6-12); and I'm sure we can safely assume, that it's where the climate is warmer, the sky more often cerulean as compared to Bohemia in the north (although, as has been pointed out in an earlier post, there seems to be some difference/error in the actual geographical location). What an irony.

sofia82

06-27-2008, 10:14 PM

Sicilia is the setting of tragedy and Bohemia the setting of comedy. And yet, Sicilia is supposed to be where the entertainment is more festive and gay, the food and drinks more delectable (Act I, Scene i, 6-12); and I'm sure we can safely assume, that it's where the climate is warmer, the sky more often cerulean as compared to Bohemia in the north (although, as has been pointed out in an earlier post, there seems to be some difference/error in the actual geographical location). What an irony.

Is this because Shakespeare changed the real setting of the story which his play is based?

Virgil

06-28-2008, 12:11 AM

Sicilia is the setting of tragedy and Bohemia the setting of comedy. And yet, Sicilia is supposed to be where the entertainment is more festive and gay, the food and drinks more delectable (Act I, Scene i, 6-12); and I'm sure we can safely assume, that it's where the climate is warmer, the sky more often cerulean as compared to Bohemia in the north (although, as has been pointed out in an earlier post, there seems to be some difference/error in the actual geographical location). What an irony.

That is an interesting observation. I'll have to give it some thought.

Nightshade

06-28-2008, 02:26 AM

Another source I found in Wikipedia

One modern historian, Eric Ives, believes that the play is really a parody of the fall of Queen Anne Boleyn, who was beheaded on false charges of adultery on the orders of her husband Henry VIII in 1536. There are numerous parallels between the two stories - including the fact that one of Henry's closest friends, Sir Henry Norreys, was beheaded as one of Anne's supposed lovers and he refused to confess in order to save his life – claiming that everyone knew the Queen was innocent. If this theory is followed then Perdita becomes a dramatic presentation of Anne's only daughter, Queen Elizabeth I.

Now that IS intresting, all things concidered

What do you think of this switching of characters?

I was actually wondering if the switch is significant, Im not sure if the archetypal stereotypy of the people from warmer countries being 'hot blooded' and prone to extremes of emotion was around in Shakespeare's day but if it was, could it be significant that Leon and Othello ( another protagonist who flies off the handle with jealousy) were from warmer countries than the victims of their jealousies?

At the opening of Scene II, Pol says:

Nine changes of the watery star hath been
The shepherd's note since we have left our throne
Without a burthen:

So it has been 9 months since his arrival (yes, it is an interesting choice of period on Shakespeare's part). I am not sure if it is too long considering the travelling conditions of the day. Probably it would take them weeks to get to one place so they might stay longer than we think it is acceptable today.

Humm is that waht leads to what happens soon do you think ? The time period?

I don't think Leon means this literally as such. I think he means "are they already whispering (gossiping) behind my back?"; not because he has actually seen (or thinks he has seen) anyone doing so.

Id agree with that :nod:

kasie

06-28-2008, 03:40 AM

[QUOTE=Nightshade;590623]Now that IS intresting, all things concidered

Humm is that waht leads to what happens soon do you think ? The time period? QUOTE]

I think I have commented on these two points already - ref: #21

bouquin

06-29-2008, 03:40 AM

Now that IS intresting, all things concidered
?

I was actually wondering if the switch is significant, Im not sure if the archetypal stereotypy of the people from warmer countries being 'hot blooded' and prone to extremes of emotion was around in Shakespeare's day but if it was, could it be significant that Leon and Othello ( another protagonist who flies off the handle with jealousy) were from warmer countries than the victims of their jealousies?

You raised a very valid point there about people from warmer climes being more 'hot blooded.'

And regarding the geographical location of Bohemia, it seems that there was a time when the territory extended all the way to the Adriatic coast so that it was not at all the land-locked area that it is today.

Prompt attack or long-standing malady, Leon's jealousy is indeed something very bizarre. But what I find even more outlandish - appalling, actually - is the punishment that he decides to inflict on Polix and Hermi, and the threat that he makes upon Camillo if the latter doesn't execute his wishes.

Janine

07-03-2008, 08:39 PM

Just popped in to say hi and that I am trying to see how far the discusion has progressed. I am pretty much lost so far since I only read this one page but that does seem to be ironical, Sophia. I also liked the points that Scher brought up about the time-span.

My home computer is still non functional basically, so I am back in the library and time is so limited here. I need to get here earlier next week so I can catch up somewhat. Unfortunately they are closed the whole weekend and probably on Monday as well for the holiday - Independence Day - our 4th of July.

It seems the discussion is going along well. I am anxious to read more of the pages and post some comments - ones I have been thinking of when I am at home but don't have the time to write in this forum presently; they close at 9*frown*. So see you all next week!

sofia82

07-04-2008, 07:05 AM

Just popped in to say hi and that I am trying to see how far the discusion has progressed. I am pretty much lost so far since I only read this one page but that does seem to be ironical, Sophia. I also liked the points that Scher brought up about the time-span.

Don't worry Janine, it seems we post comment a day and do nothing for the whole week. So you will be not so far behind ;)

My home computer is still non functional basically, so I am back in the library and time is so limited here. I need to get here earlier next week so I can catch up somewhat. Unfortunately they are closed the whole weekend and probably on Monday as well for the holiday - Independence Day - our 4th of July.

So Happy Independence Day!

It seems the discussion is going along well. I am anxious to read more of the pages and post some comments - ones I have been thinking of when I am at home but don't have the time to write in this forum presently; they close at 9*frown*. So see you all next week!

Hope to see you soon with your comments and of course new computer!:yawnb:

Scheherazade

07-04-2008, 07:10 AM

Humm is that waht leads to what happens soon do you think ? The time period? I think it is one of the factors that make Leon suspicious.
It seems the discussion is going along well. I am anxious to read more of the pages and post some comments - ones I have been thinking of when I am at home but don't have the time to write in this forum presently; they close at 9*frown*. So see you all next week!Enjoy your break, Janine! Hope you can sort out the problems soon! :)

Janine

07-11-2008, 04:40 PM

Just popping in quickly - the darn library closes now in a half hour. Silly since you would think it would be open on Friday night to keep the kids off the streets. Thanks everyone for you thumbs up. I actually have listened to the entire play now and hope to post some comments next week if I can fit it in. I am still considering what to do about a new computer. I was out looking; it all just takes time, right? I was sorry most of all to be missing this discussion. I even bought the play on DVD but I have not watched that yet - maybe this weekend. It should make the play clearer to me. Thanks Scher and thanks Sophia for you considerate/encouraging words.

The play progresses very quickly, doesn't it? I think that Leonettes goes from being so mean and unreasonable to his being sorry pretty rapidly. I guess when this play was first shown on stage in the Globe Theater, it had to progress rapidly to keep the attention of the audience. I do think this play draws one into the story quickly. The poor judgement of Leonettes does drive the plot from the beginning and rapidly all the other tragedies ensue.

Does anyone know at what time in Shakespeare's career/life this play was written?

It is an interesting play and one that is great to discuss. Be back next week with some more specific thoughts. Glad things are not progressing too quickly so that most likely I can catch up.

DapperDrake

07-14-2008, 03:23 PM

Quark

07-14-2008, 07:19 PM

Back on topic, I haven't read the whole play yet but I haven't gotten the impression that Leontes irrational behaviour is anything more than jealously - jealously can be very powerful and personally I can fully believe the scenario, sounds like classic jealousy in fact. jealousy is a violent, bitter, vengeful emotion which can be quite cold blooded like hate.

Hi, DapperDrake. How's the reading going so far? I think most of us are on Act II or III right now, but I'm sure you'll catch up. After all, Act II is very short.

As for jealousy, it was much discussed in the Act I discussion--though I'm not sure if we reached a consensus about it. We can say with some certainty that, yes, jealousy causes his behavior; however, the question that was argued over was whether his jealousy is innate or the result of his susceptibility to momentary impressions. Does that make any sense? The disagreement is over whether Leontes is just naturally jealous, or whether certain characteristics of Leontes make him susceptible to jealousy. It may seem like this argument is rather unimportant, but I think it actually has a large impact on how we interpret the rest of the play. I prefer to think of Leontes jealousy as caused by other traits in the King himself. Specifically, I look at his weakness of character which makes him susceptible to any thought that enters his head. In Act II he will say "I am a feather for each wind that blows" (ii, 154), and that is quite telling. It makes it seem like his thoughts are consumed by whatever slight impressions he receives. He becomes jealous then because his uncontrollable mind yields to a few suspicious interactions between Hermione and Polixenes. He isn't just a naturally jealous person.

DapperDrake

07-15-2008, 04:59 PM

Hi, DapperDrake. How's the reading going so far? I think most of us are on Act II or III right now, but I'm sure you'll catch up. After all, Act II is very short.

Reading is going slowly :) I'm about 1/2 way through Act II I think but I wanted to voice some opinions about Act I first.

Specifically, I look at his weakness of character which makes him susceptible to any thought that enters his head. In Act II he will say "I am a feather for each wind that blows" (ii, 154), and that is quite telling. It makes it seem like his thoughts are consumed by whatever slight impressions he receives. He becomes jealous then because his uncontrollable mind yields to a few suspicious interactions between Hermione and Polixenes. He isn't just a naturally jealous person.

"I am a feather for each wind that blows"

Yes this is about where I'm up to, but I simply take it that he's commenting on his surrender to his jealousy, he's saying that he cannot reason because his will is taken off by jealousy. (jealousy the wind and his will the feather)
My interpretation (bear in mind I'm only up to Act II Scene III) is that this is a simple tale of jealously with little else to be read into it from a motivational point of view.
I would say Leontes has been brooding over his jealously for months, its been gently simmering under the surface and then in act 1 scene 2 we see the trigger that causes his jealousy to boil over into a full passion.

later on in scene 2 where Leontes is talking to Camillo, lines 281-305, where Leontes describes the basis of his jealousy to Camillo I think clearly demonstrates that the jealousy precedes the start of the play.
I think that is also born out by the coldness with which Leontes asks Polixenes to stay another week - he's just observing the forms of hospitality and doesn't actually want Polixenes to stay, Hermione brings him up on it "You, Sir, charge him too coldly". Also I would say leontes preceding line is sarcastic "Tongue-tied, our queen? Speak you." - he's expecting her to come in an plead with Polixenes to stay because he suspects her infidelity.

In 1.2 lines 13-14 Polixenes says "Besides, I have stayed to tire your royalty.", I think this shows Polixenes has recognised that Leontes is off with him though it doesn't necessarily indicate that he knows the reason why.

So I think its safe to conclude that Leontes is not merely reacting to a momentary impression but has in fact been incubating a violent jealousy for an extended period, his queen entreating Polixenes to stay and then Polixenes agreeing to stay are the final straws and focus his feelings on the two of them.

Quark

07-17-2008, 12:21 AM

Reading is going slowly :) I'm about 1/2 way through Act II I think but I wanted to voice some opinions about Act I first.

That's okay. I'd like to talk about Act I more anyway. It's the best of the first three, I think.

"I am a feather for each wind that blows"

Yes this is about where I'm up to, but I simply take it that he's commenting on his surrender to his jealousy, he's saying that he cannot reason because his will is taken off by jealousy.

I don't know. If he were trying to indicate just his jealousy here, he wouldn't say "each" wind. More likely, he would say "the" wind. "Each" gives the idea that he would yield to any kind of influence, not just one specific influence.

later on in scene 2 where Leontes is talking to Camillo, lines 281-305, where Leontes describes the basis of his jealousy to Camillo I think clearly demonstrates that the jealousy precedes the start of the play.

But at least some part of what Leontes says in that speech must be made up. He can't possibly have seen all this. Does he know her thoughts? Have they really been "kissing with inside lip?" The king is clearly making some stuff up here. Who's to say he isn't inventing everything in this speech? Very little of what Leontes claims can be believed after he becomes paranoid.

I think if we're to find a basis for Leontes's jealousy we need to look at that part just after the hand clasp. Here, Leontes is either speaking in an aside or talking to Mamillus which is almost aside since Mamillus doesn't know what Leontes is talking about. This part gives us a look into Leontes's mind better than any other part. It's a moment of self-contemplation for Leontes, and it marks the beginning of his paranoia. It makes sense to look here for the basis of his madness since Leontes is doing the same at this point. What he says is very helpful, too:

Affection! thy intention stabs the centre.
Thou dost make possible things not so held,
Communicat'st with dreams (how can this be?),
With what's unreal thou co-active art,
And fellow'st nothing. (I, ii, 138-142)

This makes it sound like he's merely imagining much of what he supposes Hermione and Polixenes are doing. The fact that he's giving in to this kind of thinking appears to be his problem. Later in the play we'll see that he does this with another feeling. Rather than jealousy, he'll get carried away with something else.

So I think its safe to conclude that Leontes is not merely reacting to a momentary impression but has in fact been incubating a violent jealousy for an extended period, his queen entreating Polixenes to stay and then Polixenes agreeing to stay are the final straws and focus his feelings on the two of them.

It is possible that Leontes has been harboring jealous thoughts since before the play. It's also possible that they started in the first hundred lines of the play. We're told almost nothing of their past. Hermione charges Leontes of being too "cold" in his offer to Polixenes, but I don't think she means that Leontes was being chilly toward his friend. It means more that Leontes didn't pursue his point with enough vigor. That isn't overwhelming evidence that Leontes thinks Polixenes is sleeping with his wife. Leontes in general is a weaker character than his wife, and it would make sense that he wouldn't pursue his argument with Polizenes with the strength that his wife would.

Moreover, the time of origin for Leontes's jealousy doesn't change the above point. I know I used the word "momentary" in my last post, but really all I meant was weak or small. It's not necessarily that Leontes is giving into a "momentary" impression--although, he could be--it's that he's yielding to a "weak" impression. It's the act of yielding to his jealousy that's important, and not the jealousy itself. The quote above shows how a feeling can be blown out of proportion, and that's what Leontes is doing.

Janine

08-12-2008, 01:36 AM

So what happened to the discussion? I will have to catch up and see what I can add. I just reviewed by watching the screen presentation of the play by the RSC - very good; you can all view photos of the production and others on this play, in the Shakespeare Stage and Screen Pictures thread.

wilbur lim

08-16-2008, 03:48 AM

Janine

08-17-2008, 04:23 PM

Inevitably Shakespeare's works is too intricate if it is written in original text.Modern text will alleviate the problems.I cannot comprehend at all if it is in original text.My head churned immediately.

Sorry to hear that. I don't really have that problem now since I have read a good deal of his plays and his sonnets. It is certainly true the language can be a bit daunting for some. I had more trouble when I was younger and usually would rely on some audio recordings to understand just what was going on. I think some of the old English lingo and language is difficult because we can't fully comprehend all of it's meaning in today's world. Like it took me a great while to know what the words in the famous Hamlet speach refer to 'a bare botkin" - alas, I finally broke down and looked up the word and it meerly means 'a small unsheathed dagger'..duh for me:(.. Like how many times, had I heard the phrase and just skipped over it.

But basically, what I am trying to say, is the more you read or hear Shakespeare, the more it all sinks in and you get into the flow of the language and poetry of the plays. Try giving it another go maybe.

Sorry to say that I have failed miserably so far, with posting in this play discussion. I have no excuse at all, except being overwhelmed generally, at the present time. I did read the play, watch the video of the stage production twice and listen twice to the audio CD's, so you would think that I came her prepared. I have been hopeless here; but hope to make some worthwhile comments eventually. Here is something for now:

I think there is definitely precise text to show just what feeds Leonete's jealously and impending rage towards his wife and friend. It starts with her urging the other king to stay on and she does it in a very playful lighthearted mannor, much like flirting. There are key words in this section that would cause the Leonetes to have his own views on what they are talking about between them; of course he has twisted their words around to his own interpretations. Also Leontes blows the whole thing way out of proportion, but it seems that once set on that course, he can't stop his actions - they are like a chain of events spiralling him and his family downward. He is caught up in this violent tornado of over-sensitive perceptions and his own confluted temperament. Once the wife does not immediately say when the 'other time was' that she had shown as brightly to Leonetes, referring to the time that she gave into his advances and became betrothed to the L, then Leonetes goes wild with rage and jealousy - one can clearly see his sudden change in attitude and his suspicions taking form in his mind. He is totally wounded - the old 'male ego' thing is bruised and he feels underminded by his good friend and that his wife must be quilty of betraying him, by her unfaithfulness.