Hamlet's Father

[giosue_c]

I am currently re-reading Hamlet, and enjoying it more than ever. One question has come to mind while reading the story, and I haven't been able to come up with a good answer to it. Maybe somebody here can comment on it.

In the beginning of the story when Hamlet is talking to the ghost of his dead father the ghost talks about being "confined to fast in fires till the foul crimes done in my days of nature are burnt and purged away." Then with his next breath he charges Hamlet with revenging his murder. My question is, why would a father who is currently burning for his own sins ask his son to damn his own soul with some new crime?

The consequences of what the ghost asks of Hamlet turn out to be terrible. One would think that if the ghost were a good and loving father he would be satisfied with the knowledge that whatever pains he were enduring would be heaped on the soul of his murderer tenfold upon his death. Instead he sentences Hamlet to a similar fate by charging him to commit murder.

I have to admit it is a very, very fascinating plot device that gets really messy really quick. Tragedy that is so good!

[crisaor]

In the beginning of the story when Hamlet is talking to the ghost of his dead father the ghost talks about being "confined to fast in fires till the foul crimes done in my days of nature are burnt and purged away." Then with his next breath he charges Hamlet with revenging his murder. My question is, why would a father who is currently burning for his own sins ask his son to damn his own soul with some new crime?
Good question. From where I see it, he wants his son to exert revenge of his killer because he was obligued, so to speak, to confront judgement before his time (i.e. natural death). Also, the crime itself was particularly terrible: killed by his own brother, who married the widow... Anyway, revenge was pretty much the only way to get out of that situation, as it was impossible to ignore or to get accustomed to it.

The consequences of what the ghost asks of Hamlet turn out to be terrible. One would think that if the ghost were a good and loving father he would be satisfied with the knowledge that whatever pains he were enduring would be heaped on the soul of his murderer tenfold upon his death. Instead he sentences Hamlet to a similar fate by charging him to commit murder.
True. Hamlet has to carry his father's corpse in his mind throughout the entire play. He's forever plagued by doubts, and his final resolve is to follow his father's advise/order, as he prefers an alternative that might give him an eternal sleep, instead of suffering the constant bickering of his inner demons, as his famous monologue says.

[baddad]

Prayer, it was believed back in Hamlet's 'time period', was believed to mitigate sins. Hamlet's father died quickly and suddenly before he had the chance to 'cleanse his soul' with prayer. The ghost of Hamlet's father presumes that Hamlet, after avenging his own father's death, will at some point in life pray for forgiveness of ALL of his sins given the opportunity, thus saving Hamlet from enduring endless suffering in the 'fires'.

[Rumble]

I think that part of the mythos of ghosts is that they have unfinished business to do on earth, and to kill someone abruptly robbed them of their chance to make amends for their sins and save their soul--which is to say that you damned the poor bastard. This idea reappears later when Hamlet almost kills Claudius, who is praying and would therefore presumably go straight to heaven with a freshly cleansed soul.

Meanwhile, it was expected and accepted that a son would revenge his father's murder. The ghost's call to vengeance is also significant because it is a vehicle to narrate the backstory of the murder, and launch to the whole plot. Crafty guy, that Shakespeare! :brow:

(Wow I can't believe I remember this stuff!)

If you REALLY want to enjoy the complexity of Hamlet, you owe it to yourself to read The Three Text Hamlet which has the three major texts in sequence, side by side in three separate columns. It's amazing!!

[giosue_c]

Thanks for the excellent replies all. I guess I was just thinking of the ghost's actions from one perspective, that of a father... but when you consider his perspective as a husband and a king it all makes perfect sense. Certainly Claudius will have to reckon with his own sins in the end, but I suppose there are some things that are best dealt with here on earth. The revenge of a king and husband is probably one of those things.

My god this play gets good once Hamlet begins to play/be insane! The things he says are so funny and biting at the same time. I think I am going to start a new thread on the topic of Hamlet's Insanity... but first I need to get a little farther in the story because I want to ask about Ophelia, and the role she plays in his insanity, but not before I have informed myself on the topic.

[Isagel]

In Hamlet I´m not sure what is considered to be the worst crime - the murder or the lust. We might consider the murder the greatest crime, but in these days I wonder if not the lust between the uncle and Hamlets mother would be a great sin, and breaking of a taboo. It is one thing to marry a widow to take care of her, another thing to lust after the brothers wife, or the husbands brother . ( The uncle might just want power, but the Queen lusts after the uncle) I´m not entirely sure but I think that in this age the sin is not only carried by the uncle and mother , but the whole family is put in shame, damning Hamlet and the father as well as the uncle and the mother. If that is the case Hamlet is already damned, being the son of a woman who has commited "blood shame" as it is was called in my country. And Ophelia would be damned if she was a part of the family by marrying Hamlet, she would be tainted by the shame.

As long as the uncle and the Hamlets mother lives this way, the sin and shame is not washed away. Such is the price for desire.

[Scheherazade]

Like Oedipus? Old sins have long shadows?

[Isagel]

Yes, exactly. There have been many interpretations of Hamlet in context of the Oedipus myth.

[baddad]

Yes, exactly. There have been many interpretations of Hamlet in context of the Oedipus myth.

Does the reference to Oedipus complex apply here? Oedipus refers to a son having relationships with his mother. This is not the case in Hamlet.

In earlier Centuries (still goes on today actually) it was quite common for members of Royalty to marry relatives. Though this practice helped to keep Royal bloodlines 'clean', it also led to many of the problems associated with inbreeding such as genetic disruptions, psychological issues etc.

There are many historical examples of Royalty (Russian, German, English, Dutch, French, Italian, Spanish) marrying within their own families. While the commoners reighned over by these royal families may have disparaged this practice of inbreeding, it was far more common, also among their own ranks, than is currently noted.

[Isagel]

I just read your reply and had to check the Hamlet version here, to see if I was making to much out of the Uncle/mother marriage.

When referring to Oedipus I used it more in the context of the incest taboo and consequence of breaking it. Here I found the part of the fathers speech where he mentions that the murder is not just a murder, but an unnatural act :

Ghost
Murder most foul, as in the best it is;
But this most foul, strange and unnatural.

HAMLET
Haste me to know't, that I, with wings as swift
As meditation or the thoughts of love,
May sweep to my revenge.

Ghost
I find thee apt;
And duller shouldst thou be than the fat weed
That roots itself in ease on Lethe wharf,
Wouldst thou not stir in this. Now, Hamlet, hear:
'Tis given out that, sleeping in my orchard,
A serpent stung me; so the whole ear of Denmark
Is by a forged process of my death
Rankly abused: but know, thou noble youth,
The serpent that did sting thy father's life
Now wears his crown.

HAMLET
O my prophetic soul! My uncle!

Ghost
Ay, that incestuous, that adulterate beast,
With witchcraft of his wit, with traitorous gifts,--
O wicked wit and gifts, that have the power
So to seduce!--won to his shameful lust
The will of my most seeming-virtuous queen:
O Hamlet, what a falling-off was there!

[baddad]

okay.....glad to see someone did their homework.

...and sure, the dead king is pissed!! He'll say anything to get revenge, especially if he can incite his son to murder!! He'll call the relationship incestuous, evil, a sin against god, etc....I mean, walking in his boots I'd do the same!!

Hamlet's mother's relationship with his uncle is not incestuous per se'. The queen ( Hamlet's mommy) and her king are not related other than by marriage. While this may cause tongues to wag, create a storm of gossip, there is nothing inherently illegal nor immoral in a woman marrying one man and later in time marrying his brother.

Mostly I seem to have been splitting hairs in that last post, doing the Freudian flop (Sigmund 'Fraud' my psyche professor called him) on the oedipus thingy.

....but thanks for the quotes: " ...with wings as swift as meditation or thoughts of love..." I do love Shakespeare!

[mrwriter]

The element of the Ghost is the most mysterious subject in "Hamlet".

:banana:"a spirit of health or goblin damn'd?" (1.4.40):banana:

The different interpretations of the Ghost in Catholic & Protestant are also considerable. It seems Shakespeare had unbiased view on the both Catholic & Protestant.

However, what was the real intention of Shakespeare in making the ghost such in a way? What is the main role of the ghost? Could it really vary depending on the way how we interpretate the ghost?

.........or did Shakespeare make the ghost to remain in such a 'mysterious', 'questionable shape' -_-??

[Janine]

The element of the Ghost is the most mysterious subject in "Hamlet".

"a spirit of health or goblin damn'd?" (1.4.40)

The different interpretations of the Ghost in Catholic & Protestant are also considerable. It seems Shakespeare had unbiased view on the both Catholic & Protestant.

However, what was the real intention of Shakespeare in making the ghost such in a way? What is the main role of the ghost? Could it really vary depending on the way how we interpretate the ghost?

.........or did Shakespeare make the ghost to remain in such a 'mysterious', 'questionable shape' -_-??

:idea: Check out the other thread simply called "The Ghost". We have been discussing/debating the ghost extensively. These same points have been brought up. Is the ghost really Hamlet's father or a demon? You all had good points to make in this post. You might want to bring them up in the other post or read what has already been said. I just found this post....interesting!:D

[srhoton]

mrwriter,
I feel that the main role of the ghost was to spark the conflict that is upheld throughout this play. Without him, Hamlet would not have known that his father was murdered and I dont think that he would have seeked the revenge that he did on Claudius. The ghost is interpretated in numerous ways and I feel that it can have an influence in the way that we read into the characters and their actions. If Shakespeare had not included the ghost then would Hamlet still seek revenge on Claudius?

[zmichael47348]

My question is, why would a father who is currently burning for his own sins ask his son to damn his own soul with some new crime?


I will reiterate what others have already said. I'm not sure what good it will do, but oh well.

The revenge of Hamlet's father does indeed set up the whole storyline.

I believe that in this situation, God would forgive Hamlet for what he does. Revenge is probably the only way to work everything out. As long as Hamlet prays before he dies, he should be okay.

But I don't really recall Hamlet having a chance to do this or actually doing it at all. So do you think that he is now in the same spot as his father? Was Shakespeare setting up the possibility of writing another play that placed Hamlet Jr. as the ghost? That would be interesting. Hamlet II. :)

[Redzeppelin]

As I have posted elsewhere in the Hamlet threads:

A ghost in Elizabethan times could have a number of meanings - one of which could be a spirit released from purgatory by divine permission. Hamlet's job is to find out if he is to be a tool of divine justice (since God often works through people rather than direct interaction on His own).

[htownsend]

I understand that my view point on this topic has already been previously stated, numerous times actually. But, nevertheless, I felt the need to throw in my own thoughts- what can it hurt?
In reply to the question ”Why would a father who is currently burning for his own sins ask his son to damn his own soul with some new crime?” I feel that Hamlet would not have asked his son to take on the responsibility of avenging his death if he did not feel one hundred percent confident that his son would not meet the same fate he did. No father would willingly surrender their own child to consequences they themselves hate to bear. However, I must think of the argument that the Ghost isn't real and only is a figment of Hamlet Jr.'s imagination, or that the Ghost is not King Hamlet, but instead a demon wanting to curse Hamlet. In my opinion, the Ghost is real, and is King Hamlet himself, but for someone who did not agree, their point of view on this would be one worth reading!
But, anyway. In the first act, when speaking to Hamlet, the ghost says , “ No reckoning mad, but sent to my account/With all my imperfections on my head.” (1.5.78-79) which implies Hamlet was not able to ask for forgiveness for his sins before he died, which causes him to stay in Hell. Similarly, this is thought is repeated when (young) Hamlet states, “Tis heavy with him. And am I then revenged/To take him in the purging of his soul/When he is fit and seasoned for his passage?” (3.3.85-87). Hamlet does not want to kill the King while he is praying, because he is cleansing his soul of his sins, and would be sent straight to heaven. Instead, he feel he needs to wait until he is committing a sin so he will have no time to ask for forgiveness.
With all this being said, it is understood that King Hamlet was not in fact asking Hamlet to spend a lifetime confined in the “fast fires” because he can pray after murdering King Claudius and get off scot free, conscious wise anyway.

[drlex]

In the beginning of the story when Hamlet is talking to the ghost of his dead father the ghost talks about being "confined to fast in fires till the foul crimes done in my days of nature are burnt and purged away." Then with his next breath he charges Hamlet with revenging his murder. My question is, why would a father who is currently burning for his own sins ask his son to damn his own soul with some new crime?

The consequences of what the ghost asks of Hamlet turn out to be terrible. One would think that if the ghost were a good and loving father he would be satisfied with the knowledge that whatever pains he were enduring would be heaped on the soul of his murderer tenfold upon his death. Instead he sentences Hamlet to a similar fate by charging him to commit murder


“Revenge his foul and unnatural death.” (1.5.26). This begins the whole thought process of revenge starts in this play. This is also when the real conversation starts between the ghost which is Hamlet’s father and Hamlet himself. Basically, Hamlet’s father wants Hamlet to get revenge because he never had the chance too. When Claudius poisoned him in his ear, he died. This was inconvenient because it did not give the King the chance to get revenge on his conniving brother, Claudius. So, I feel that he is asking Hamlet to get revenge for him because he wants to rest in “peace” or to stop living in purgatory. The ghost of his father wants to stop roaming and just meet his destiny. The ghost warns Hamlet not to harm his mother though, even though he may want to for her committing her evil, incestuous acts.

You can see revenge come into play in several instances throughout the play. Hamlet wanted the “play” within a play is performed because he wanted to make sure that Claudius actually did kill his father and he wanted to see how Claudius reacted. Then Hamlet is going to kill Claudius when he is praying and asking for forgiveness for killing his brother, but decides not to because he would be cleansed and would be forgiven of his sins. Hamlet wants to kill Claudius when he is in the midst of committing a sin. Hamlet says,


“Now might I do it pat, now he is praying;
And now I'll do't. And so he goes to heaven;
And so am I revenged. That would be scann'd:
A villain kills my father; and for that,
I, his sole son, do this same villain send
To heaven.
O, this is hire and salary, not revenge.
He took my father grossly, full of bread;
With all his crimes broad blown, as flush as May;
And how his audit stands who knows save heaven?
But in our circumstance and course of thought,
'Tis heavy with him: and am I then revenged,
To take him in the purging of his soul,
When he is fit and season'd for his passage?
No!
Up, sword; and know thou a more horrid hent:
When he is drunk asleep, or in his rage,
Or in the incestuous pleasure of his bed;
At gaming, swearing, or about some act
That has no relish of salvation in't;
Then trip him, that his heels may kick at heaven,
And that his soul may be as damn'd and black
As hell, whereto it goes. My mother stays:
This physic but prolongs thy sickly days.“ (3.3.72-96).


So, really Hamlet just wants Claudius to die just like his father did when he has not had the time to repent for his evil deeds.

Some ask well why would a father want his son to be in the same place that he’s in and why does he want Hamlet to get revenge for him? Well the answer to that can be found if you look at the era that this play takes place in. Everyone just figured you prayed and ask for forgiveness which spared you from living for eternity in the fires. If you look at the era again, you can see that it was widely accepted and expected for a son to get revenge for a wrongful death, much like in Hamlet’s case.

[srhoton]

[QUOTE=giosue_c;47379] My question is, why would a father who is currently burning for his own sins ask his son to damn his own soul with some new crime?
The consequences of what the ghost asks of Hamlet turn out to be terrible. One would think that if the ghost were a good and loving father he would be satisfied with the knowledge that whatever pains he were enduring would be heaped on the soul of his murderer tenfold upon his death. Instead he sentences Hamlet to a similar fate by charging him to commit murder.
QUOTE]

Ghost. I find thee apt;
And duller shouldst thou be than fat weed
That roots itself in ease on Lethe wharf,
Wouldst thou not stir in this. Now, Hamlet hear
‘This given out that, sleeping in my orchard,
A serpent stung me. So the whole ear of Denmark
Is by a forged process of my death
Rankly abused. But know, thou noble youth,
The serpent that did sting thy father’s life
Now wears his crown.
(1.5.33-41)
The King wants revenge on his death and in order to do so he asks Hamlet to murder Claudius. In the quote above from the Ghost, or former King, he states that Hamlet wants to revenge the death of his father and gain the rightful place as King of Denmark. The Ghost tells Hamlet that he feels that he is willing to do this favor and that it would be absolutely ignorant to not be aroused by this request. So why would the Ghost wish for his own son to be doomed to the fate that he now has?
Like already stated, the people of that time believed that a person can perform sinful acts as long as they ask for forgiveness after doing so. The Ghost was the key character in this play due to the fact that he started the deadly chain of revengeful acts between numerous characters. I feel that the Ghost felt that Hamlet would have the pride of revenging his father’s death, but at the same time he would be able to pray in order to save his life from damnation. Unfortunately, this was not the way that the play unfolded. I do not by any means feel that the Ghost thought or wished for his son to die in vein. The Ghost only wished for all of the wrong doings to be right.
Many questions have developed wondering if the Ghost was actually the former King of Denmark. Due to the fact the Ghost wished for Gertrude’s safety and did not seek revenge on actions of the Queen, I feel that the Ghost was truly the father of Hamlet. What would be the point for the Ghost to ensure the safety of the Queen? His concernment for Gertrude illustrated that the ghosts figure was actually the King. Many interpretations about the ghost can be made, which makes the play even more intriguing.