Poetry Bookclub: Yeats's The Wild Swans at Coole

[Quark]

JBI recently suggested that we start a poetry bookclub, and the idea quickly drew interest. We threw out a few possible topics for conversation, but eventually settled on Yeats's collection of poems The Wild Swans at Coole. There are two version of this collection. The first was published in 1917 and included 23 poems and a play. Yeats later republished the collection without the play, and added 17 additional poems in 1919. JBI didn't say which version he meant, but I'm assuming it's the later 1919 edition. You can find it online here: http://www.bartleby.com/148/index1.html. We'll start with the first poem in the series which is the title poem "The Wild Swans at Coole," and work our way down the list. So, here's


"The Wild Swans at Coole"
http://www.evergreenfinearts.com/artists/Aldrich/AldrichSwanL.JPG


THE TREES are in their autumn beauty,
The woodland paths are dry,
Under the October twilight the water
Mirrors a still sky;
Upon the brimming water among the stones 5
Are nine and fifty swans.

The nineteenth Autumn has come upon me
Since I first made my count;
I saw, before I had well finished,
All suddenly mount 10
And scatter wheeling in great broken rings
Upon their clamorous wings.

I have looked upon those brilliant creatures,
And now my heart is sore.
All’s changed since I, hearing at twilight, 15
The first time on this shore,
The bell-beat of their wings above my head,
Trod with a lighter tread.

Unwearied still, lover by lover,
They paddle in the cold, 20
Companionable streams or climb the air;
Their hearts have not grown old;
Passion or conquest, wander where they will,
Attend upon them still.

But now they drift on the still water 25
Mysterious, beautiful;
Among what rushes will they build,
By what lake’s edge or pool
Delight men’s eyes, when I awake some day
To find they have flown away? 30

Hopefully, this will get the conversation going. I'll start commenting tomorrow when I have more time.

[JBI]

Any chance on moving this thread out of here? This spot is rather hidden, and I think it would be better with the other book clubs, or back in the poetry forum.

[Quark]

Any chance on moving this thread out of here? This spot is rather hidden, and I think it would be better with the other book clubs, or back in the poetry forum.

Do you mean in the forum book club section? I would think I would need permission from the admins to post on there. I could post it to the general poetry section, but it would probably get moved here anyway. If you're worried about the discussion's visibility, the easy way to make it noticed is to post a lot. Constantly active threads get more attention than ones with only limited participation. It seems like we already have several people interested, so we shouldn't have any problem with this. All the book discussions I'm in right now are posted under the author's sub-forum, and the conversations are each doing fine. In fact, the Lawrence and Chekhov short story threads have 1,600 and 480 posts, respectively. I would hardly say they were hidden. Leaving the Yeats thread here will not doom it to obscurity. Only lukewarm participation will do that.

[Dark Muse]

I do not normally read much of Yeats, but this paritcular poem I did find quite lovely, and the picture choosen to go with it, is beautiful, so I might check back in when the discussion gets started.

[DapperDrake]

All the book discussions I'm in right now are posted under the author's sub-forum, and the conversations are each doing fine. In fact, the Lawrence and Chekhov short story threads have 1,600 and 480 posts, respectively. I would hardly say they were hidden. .


I'd say they are pretty well hidden actually, I had no idea there are active discussions going on in the author sub-forums. It shouldn't matter though as people will see the original thread in the poetry forum and if they're interested will follow your link here... Like me ;)

As for this first poem - I liked it, would we say its pessimistic?

[Virgil]

You can read all the poems from this book on the internet. Here: http://www.bartleby.com/148/index1.html. I'll shortly jump into the conversation. Let me read through the poems. How do we want to discuss them? One poem at a time or just free flow?

Edit: Oops, Quark I'm sorry. I didn't realize you had posted the web link already.

[Il Penseroso]

This is a great opener poem, I think. It stands alone quite well in its beauty and relative simplicity but takes a greater meaning as you read through the other poems (I've read through most of them, once).

[Dark Muse]

As for this first poem - I liked it, would we say its pessimistic?

Personally I would not call it pessimistic

[sofia82]

It is not pessimistic, it decribes all the beauties, mysteries. But there is a question what will happen to them (swans) in the future when he returns there, and where will they go?! It is a kind of recalling the past and looking into a vague future.

[Il Penseroso]

Whoops

[Quark]

Personally I would not call it pessimistic

It is not pessimistic, it decribes all the beauties, mysteries. But there is a question what will happen to them (swans) in the future when he returns there, and where will they go?! It is a kind of recalling the past and looking into a vague future.

I think Dark Muse is right about the mood of the poem, and sofia is right about the importance of time. First, the mood is quite pessimistic. The poet is looking out at these swans which symbolize his youthful passion, and he's seeing them leaving. Looking at the birds, he says

Their hearts have not grown old;
Passion or conquest, wander where they will,
Attend upon them still
They cheer him up, but eventually they will disperse:

Among what rushes will they build,
By what lake’s edge or pool
Delight men’s eyes, when I awake some day
To find they have flown away?
He's lamenting that he will lose, or already has lost, this passion that the birds represent. There is something beautiful about the state he's left in, though. The first stanza describes this autumn of his days as dignified and calm. So, perhaps the poem isn't completely pessimistic. But, it does have a melancholy theme.

Also important is time. The poem is set during twilight and autumn--both intermediate states between two opposite times (winter and summer, night and day). Those times are both considered periods of decline. One goes into the darkness of night and the other descends into the coldness of winter. This is similar to the poet who is in an intermediate phase between passionate youth and serene old age. He's descending into the colder, less fruitful time of his life, and the time of the poem reflects that.


How do we want to discuss them? One poem at a time or just free flow?

Edit: Oops, Quark I'm sorry. I didn't realize you had posted the web link already.

JBI wanted to do the poems individually which makes sense. On top of that, I suggest we discuss the poems in the order they were originally published in. That way everyone can see the order ahead of time, and I won't constantly have to tell people which poem we're doing next. As far as time limits go, I don't think we should have one. We should discuss as long as there's interest.


I'd say they are pretty well hidden actually, I had no idea there are active discussions going on in the author sub-forums. It shouldn't matter though as people will see the original thread in the poetry forum and if they're interested will follow your link here... Like me ;)

I can try to post the next thread in the poetry section; but, if it's a book with just one author, they will probably move the thread to the author's sub-forum. I'll ask an admin later about this.

[Il Penseroso]

Also important is time. The poem is set during twilight and autumn--both intermediate states between two opposite times (winter and summer, night and day). Those times are both considered periods of decline. One goes into the darkness of night and the other descends into the coldness of winter. This is similar to the poet who is in an intermediate phase between passionate youth and serene old age. He's descending into the colder, less fruitful time of his life, and the time of the poem reflects that.


I agree this is key; the poet is lamenting seasons past, knowing that he is drawing near the time in which he will no longer be able to enjoy the swans as they are. I still think it's odd, considering the aging Yeats and the coupled swans (on "companionable streams") that he is reflecting on their disappearance rather than on his own demise directly. Having the birds symbolize his declining passions just doesn't quite solve it for me, at least on a literal level.

On a separate note, I think, the poem seems to end as a hinting remark by Yeats toward the younger, more passionate generation, concerning his place as a figure in the Irish literary movement. Sort of wondering who will step up to fill his shoes.

[Dark Muse]

I think Dark Muse is right about the mood of the poem, and sofia is right about the importance of time. First, the mood is quite pessimistic.

Hehe, I said that it was not pessimistic. I think that pessimistic is too strong a word. That is not the feeling that I got from the poem.

I agree it is about growing older and looking back upon the lost years of youth and passing of time. But I felt it was more perhaps melancholy or nostalgic, but it did not feel to be a truly negative view from my perspective.

[Quark]

I still think it's odd, considering the aging Yeats and the coupled swans (on "companionable streams") that he is reflecting on their disappearance rather than on his own demise directly. Having the birds symbolize his declining passions just doesn't quite solve it for me, at least on a literal level.

That's just my explanation. What do you think the birds do in the poem? How does the poet interpret them? How do you interpret them?


On a separate note, I think, the poem seems to end as a hinting remark by Yeats toward the younger, more passionate generation, concerning his place as a figure in the Irish literary movement. Sort of wondering who will step up to fill his shoes.

That's interesting--the swans as Yeats's waning poetic genius, and the speaker as Ireland's literary movement.


Hehe, I said that it was not pessimistic. I think that pessimistic is too strong a word. That is not the feeling that I got from the poem.

I agree it is about growing older and looking back upon the lost years of youth and passing of time. But I felt it was more perhaps melancholy or nostalgic, but it did not feel to be a truly negative view from my perspective.

Oh, sorry about that DM. That's what happens when I try to post before I run off somewhere.

Well, I guess I didn't agree with you, then. Although, now I do agree with your last post. Pessimistic is too strong of a word, or, at any rate, it's the wrong word. Pessimistic would mean the poem is hopeless and dejected, and I don't get that from the poem. I just wanted to say that the poem contemplates loss which is often a depressing theme, and that there is a note of sadness which reflects that.

[Virgil]

Pessimistic is the wrong word, but it has a saddness to it. How else can you read these lines:


I have looked upon those brilliant creatures,
And now my heart is sore.
All’s changed since I, hearing at twilight, 15
The first time on this shore,
The bell-beat of their wings above my head,
Trod with a lighter tread.

And then t ends on a real melancholy thought:

By what lake’s edge or pool
Delight men’s eyes, when I awake some day
To find they have flown away?

[Dark Muse]

Well, I guess I didn't agree with you, then. Although, now I do agree with your last post. Pessimistic is too strong of a word, or, at any rate, it's the wrong word. Pessimistic would mean the poem is hopeless and dejected, and I don't get that from the poem. I just wanted to say that the poem contemplates loss which is often a depressing theme, and that there is a note of sadness which reflects that.

Yes I agree, I truly do not feel this poem is hopeless. I do not even think it is truly depressing. There is a tough of saddness but I think there is also a foundness in the memories, and a hope for the future which is yet still unknown, even if the years are passing on and that is being refelcted upon.


Their hearts have not grown old;
Passion or conquest, wander where they will,
Attend upon them still.

I think these lines offer some glimpse of hope


By what lake’s edge or pool
Delight men’s eyes, when I awake some day
To find they have flown away?

I think that the last lines of the poem also suggest that it is truly not over yet, though the day will come and is speculated on. There is still time left.

The poem really is a deep one. I rather like how it is set in the months of Autumn. A sort of transitional phast right before the bareness of Winter, which is often associated with death. But there is still some beauty left within Autumn.


All’s changed since I, hearing at twilight

I think the use of the word twilight is another referance to age. And like Autumn it is sort of that period that is just upon the edge. The sun has not yet fully gone down, but it is starting its decent.

[Quark]

Pessimistic is the wrong word, but it has a saddness to it. How else can you read these lines:

And then it ends on a real melancholy thought:

Yeah, I was thinking of those lines in particular. Plus, it's not just the content of the poem which is sad, but also the sound of the lines. I can't quite put my finger on it, but something in the way it's put together gives me that feel. Maybe it's the stress pattern. The thoughts are grouped in two line pairs, and the lines go from four stresses to three. Something about that is sort of somber. The first line is long and opens possibilities, and the second shorter line is anti-climatic and depressing.


Yes I agree, I truly do not feel this poem is hopeless. I do not even think it is truly depressing. There is a tough of saddness but I think there is also a foundness in the memories, and a hope for the future which is yet still unknown, even if the years are passing on and that is being refelcted upon.

You're right the future is unknown, but the past is known and it was filled with passion and love. The future entails the loss of that.


I think these lines offer some glimpse of hope

Those lines are cheerful, but they describe the birds which are leaving the poet.


I think that the last lines of the poem also suggest that it is truly not over yet, though the day will come and is speculated on. There is still time left.

The poem really is a deep one. I rather like how it is set in the months of Autumn. A sort of transitional phast right before the bareness of Winter, which is often associated with death. But there is still some beauty left within Autumn.

Right, it isn't totally hopeless. The autumn of the poet is quite serene and beautiful.

[sofia82]

That's interesting--the swans as Yeats's waning poetic genius, and the speaker as Ireland's literary movement.

Considering sawn as symbols of poetic genius,


--- The swan is the ensign of poets and musicians. It symbolizes perfection, beauty, and grace. For a bearer of the swan it represents a lover of poetry and harmony, or a learned person. ---

We can interpret the poem as he's feairng of losing his power as the poet and being unable to write poetry as well as he wrote in his passionate and delightful youth. Nineteen years ago, there were nine and fifty swans, and now they are flying away, what will happen to his artistic power when he becomes old.

But there is some hopefulness in the poetry. 19 years ago they were 59, now they are 59. Maybe there will be 59 in the future, as Yeats wrote his best poetry when he was old (after fifties).

[sofia82]

The poet is looking out at these swans which symbolize his youthful passion, and he's seeing them leaving.




The nineteenth Autumn has come upon me
Since I first made my count;
I saw, before I had well finished,
All suddenly mount
And scatter wheeling in great broken rings
Upon their clamorous wings

Considering this stanza, If we take "I saw, before I had well ..." as an act when he was 19, can we say once they flew away but now they are at the lake. Although he thought they (the passion) will be gone, they are still there. he knows this passion will decline, but he is not sure when.




The first stanza describes this autumn of his days as dignified and calm. So, perhaps the poem isn't completely pessimistic. But, it does have a melancholy theme.

This calmness is evident even when one read the poem. The words, rhythem, rhyme all represent this calmness which is pleasant though melancholic.

[sofia82]

Hehe, I said that it was not pessimistic. I think that pessimistic is too strong a word. That is not the feeling that I got from the poem.

:D You are right, i thought you wrote it is pessimistic. Sorry :yawnb:

[sofia82]

By what lake’s edge or pool
Delight men’s eyes, when I awake some day
To find they have flown away?



And then t ends on a real melancholy thought:


I think these lines offer some glimpse of hope



I think that the last lines of the poem also suggest that it is truly not over yet, though the day will come and is speculated on. There is still time left.

I agree with Dark Muse. It represents a kind of hope inspite of his soubting it. If it were a statement, yes it could be hopeless end, but he is not sure and he is asking about this end.

[JBI]

Hmm perhaps look at the first two lines;

THE TREES are in their autumn beauty,
The woodland paths are dry,

That essentially sets the setting. Everything else is downhill from here, since he is getting old.

The next 4 lines seem to set the moment however, when he writes;

Under the October twilight the water
Mirrors a still sky;
Upon the brimming water among the stones 5
Are nine and fifty swans. (great rhyme with stones and swans)

The moment of course, he is commenting, is beautiful. October is, in my opinion, being used here to symbolize again autumn, and the coming of the end of his middle years, turning into his later years. The swans here are representing the fruits of his years, his achievement and pleasures, his desires and enjoyments, but they are placed right beside October, symbolizing their migration south, and their disappearance from his life.

The nineteenth Autumn has come upon me
Since I first made my count;
I saw, before I had well finished,
All suddenly mount 10
And scatter wheeling in great broken rings
Upon their clamorous wings.


This second stanza is probably the most central for the development. It implies that he had started feeling his time was running out. 1900 being a significant year, not only because of the turn of the century, but also because of his rejections from Maude Goone, to whom he proposed marriage in 1899, 1900, and 1901. The last lines of this poem seem to show the sudden fading of everything, symbolized again with the departing swans.

I have looked upon those brilliant creatures,
And now my heart is sore.
All’s changed since I, hearing at twilight, 15
The first time on this shore,
The bell-beat of their wings above my head,
Trod with a lighter tread

This stanza seems to be attempting to appeal to the emotions he is feeling. He is commenting that he has enjoyed these things, looked on them, watched them, but now they are different. He feels them growing older as well, and slower, and lighter, symbolizing the increasing difficulty of life, and its lack of reward. The Trod with a Lighter Tread is also a reference to his life, and the responsibility and carefulness that comes with age. It is contrasted to a younger, less worrisome life that he has left behind.

Unwearied still, lover by lover,
They paddle in the cold, 20
Companionable streams or climb the air;
Their hearts have not grown old;
Passion or conquest, wander where they will,
Attend upon them still.

Now he is distancing himself, as the poet, from the swans. They now appear to seem like everyone else, that is, the next generation, the young. They are not old, and they are still experiencing the fruits of youthfulness, personified in the "unwearied still, lover by lover," and "passion or conquest, wander where they will," These lines seem to isolate the poet from the swans, since he is now to old to enjoy the same feelings they have. He has responsibilities, age, and loneliness to deal with. His passion is ebbing, and he is too old to "paddle in the cold / companionable streams or climb the air;" He essentially caps this off with the last line, "attend upon them still" proving that he no longer has these abilities, but is bound to another fate, all kept in mind with the concept of autumn that is running through the whole poem.


But now they drift on the still water 25
Mysterious, beautiful;
Among what rushes will they build,
By what lake’s edge or pool
Delight men’s eyes, when I awake some day
To find they have flown away?

He returns here to the concept of the moment, commenting on how he is enjoying the last of them, but acknowledging that one day he will awake to find they have moved on, literally south, symbolically to the next generation. The "when I awake some day" is symbolic again of age and hinting at death, capped off with "to find they have flown away?" the poem seems to be pushing now away from the concept of the moment, into the concept of age, saying essentially, in my opinion, "but I have some time left, but it is running out."

Overall this is one of Yeats' most famous and most anthologized poems. The metre and rhymes seem to give it a perfect rhythm for memorization (which I invite all of you to undertake with me) and also a liquid, water-like flow, seeming to echo his swans. The images remain significant because they deal with an experience all of us must feel to some extent or another. The deep meaning, which sets it apart from other poems, I find, however, is that it is not an age makes you wise statement, as seen in the bible, or an age makes you foolish statement, as seen in King Lear, but rather a depiction of the aging man from his perspective, showing the emptiness, loneliness, and desperation of a man waiting for the time to come when he can no longer enjoy all that he values.

[Quark]

We can interpret the poem as he's feairng of losing his power as the poet and being unable to write poetry as well as he wrote in his passionate and delightful youth. Nineteen years ago, there were nine and fifty swans, and now they are flying away, what will happen to his artistic power when he becomes old.

Originally I found this interpretation rather doubtful, but looking back at the last stanza I think it's actually quite applicable. Yeats writes

But now they drift on the still water 25
Mysterious, beautiful;
Among what rushes will they build,
By what lake’s edge or pool
Delight men’s eyes, when I awake some day
To find they have flown away?
If the still water represents the serenity of his old age, why are the swans, who represent the water's opposite, floating on it? And, if the swans represent the poet's youthful passion why does he speculate about where they might go? Youthful passions don't relocate; they weaken and then disappear. Poetry, however, can be considered transfered between people. It is something that will "delight men's eyes."


19 years ago they were 59, now they are 59. Maybe there will be 59 in the future, as Yeats wrote his best poetry when he was old (after fifties).

JBI recently suggested that the 19 years is connected with the year 1900, which makes some sense. What about the 59 swans, though? Why does he pick that number, or why does he even bother to specify the number?


I agree with Dark Muse. It represents a kind of hope inspite of his soubting it. If it were a statement, yes it could be hopeless end, but he is not sure and he is asking about this end.

Those lines refer to the swan, and not the poet or his present condition.


The moment of course, he is commenting, is beautiful. October is, in my opinion, being used here to symbolize again autumn, and the coming of the end of his middle years, turning into his later years. The swans here are representing the fruits of his years, his achievement and pleasures, his desires and enjoyments, but they are placed right beside October, symbolizing their migration south, and their disappearance from his life.

That's safe to say. I think we all agree with this.


This second stanza is probably the most central for the development.

You're starting to sound like Virgil now. Everything has a central passage or a key scene.


1900 being a significant year, not only because of the turn of the century, but also because of his rejections from Maude Goone, to whom he proposed marriage in 1899, 1900, and 1901.

That's an interesting explanation of the nineteenth autumn. What do you make of the 59 swans? Why that many?


This stanza seems to be attempting to appeal to the emotions he is feeling. He is commenting that he has enjoyed these things, looked on them, watched them, but now they are different. He feels them growing older as well, and slower, and lighter, symbolizing the increasing difficulty of life, and its lack of reward. The Trod with a Lighter Tread is also a reference to his life, and the responsibility and carefulness that comes with age. It is contrasted to a younger, less worrisome life that he has left behind.

I think the lighter tread refers to how the birds flew in the past, and not how they appear at the time of the poet's speech. The first sentence of that stanza talks of the present, and the second describes his first view of them nineteen years ago. The "lighter tread" part comes in the second sentence.


Now he is distancing himself, as the poet, from the swans.

That's a good observation. The swans start to take on a character of their own and leave him behind.


I find, however, is that it is not an age makes you wise statement, as seen in the bible, or an age makes you foolish statement, as seen in King Lear, but rather a depiction of the aging man from his perspective, showing the emptiness, loneliness, and desperation of a man waiting for the time to come when he can no longer enjoy all that he values.

Yes, I think the word "emptiness" is particularly fitting. He's abandoned by the swans, just as his passion, interest, and affection in life is drying up. The emptiness is placid, but ultimately it's empty.

[Dark Muse]

The nineteenth Autumn has come upon me
Since I first made my count;
I saw, before I had well finished,
All suddenly mount 10
And scatter wheeling in great broken rings
Upon their clamorous wings.


This second stanza is probably the most central for the development. It implies that he had started feeling his time was running out. 1900 being a significant year, not only because of the turn of the century, but also because of his rejections from Maude Goone, to whom he proposed marriage in 1899, 1900, and 1901. The last lines of this poem seem to show the sudden fading of everything, symbolized again with the departing swans.

That is intersting, I do not know much about Yeats, but I can see now the signifigance of the symbolisim of the "broken rings" in light of his own personal rejections of marraige.

I also had previously wondered at the importance of the 19th Autumn

[Virgil]

That's an interesting explanation of the nineteenth autumn. What do you make of the 59 swans? Why that many?


I could be wrong but I don't think there is any symbolism with the numbers. I think they are real facts. It's probably been 19 years since he has been going there and there really were 59 swans. Interesting he has an odd number. An odd number implies that one swan is not paired.

[Quark]

I could be wrong but I don't think there is any symbolism with the numbers. I think they are real facts. It's probably been 19 years since he has been going there and there really were 59 swans. Interesting he has an odd number. An odd number implies that one swan is not paired.

I could be thinking too hard, but I just wondered why Yeats would bother with the number if it didn't matter. It probably just fit well in the verse.

[Dark Muse]

I could be thinking too hard, but I just wondered why Yeats would bother with the number if it didn't matter. It probably just fit well in the verse.

I thought for a moment that maybe the number of swans reperesented the age, but than I wondered if maybe 59 was a bit too old for the theme of the poem

[JBI]

He wasn't yet 59, since he was born in 1865, making him 54 in 1919.

[Dark Muse]

Ahh ok, thanks

[quasimodo1]

Quark, you are to be complimented on the artistic elements of the first posting.

[quasimodo1]

Many of Yeats' poems can be analyzed on many levels but this one has simplicity as backround theme. There is the "I am an old man in a dry month" (Eliot) element but that is balanced by the rejuvinating power of nature.

[Virgil]

Has anyone noticed the rather interesting rhyme scheme that Yeats uses? I always love Yeats' rhyme schemes; they are conventional looking but as you look closer he tends to come up with his own. Each stanza here uses an A/B/C/B/D/D pattern. I thought it was an A/B/A/B/C/C pattern, at least that's what I expected. But the first and third line do not ryhme. The rhyme scheme he ueses gives it such a natural feel (by not rhyming the first and third lines which are up front in each stanza), but by following a pattern after the initial lines still gives the stanza a pleasing harmony. Very nice.

[Il Penseroso]

The first stanza doesn't have that rhyme scheme, however. Right?

[Virgil]

The first stanza doesn't have that rhyme scheme, however. Right?

Well, here's that first stanza:

THE TREES are in their autumn beauty,
The woodland paths are dry,
Under the October twilight the water
Mirrors a still sky;
Upon the brimming water among the stones 5
Are nine and fifty swans.
Certainly the dry/sky is a rhyme in the second and fourth lines. I guess you mean the stones/swans rhyme of the fifth and sixth line. Two thoughts there. It is a a type of slant rhyme, especially given the consonant sound with the "n" that anchors both words and the "s" that conscludes each word. The question is how much of a slant is it. That brings me to my second thought and the answer depends how one pronounces them with an Irish accent. I've seen a number of Yeats' rhymes that seem to be based on an Irish accent. I'm no expert on that. Perhaps Niamh or someone from Ireland can help us with that.

[JBI]

The rhyme scheme throughout is xaxabb with the occasional slant (I believe in the first and second stanzas only) on the bb rhyme. Stone and Swan are supposed to rhyme, though they only slant rhyme, etc. From what I know of the poem, it is an intentional slant, but the words proceeding are designed to soften the slanting somewhat, by creating an alliterative texture of repetitive sounds.

[JBI]

Hmm, ready to move on to the next poem?

[Dark Muse]

This one seemed to have been well dicussed, I am interested to see the next poem.

[JBI]

. In Memory of Major Robert Gregory


1

NOW that we’re almost settled in our house
I’ll name the friends that cannot sup with us
Beside a fire of turf in the ancient tower,
And having talked to some late hour
Climb up the narrow winding stair to bed: 5
Discoverers of forgotten truth
Or mere companions of my youth,
All, all are in my thoughts to-night, being dead.

2

Always we’d have the new friend meet the old,
And we are hurt if either friend seem cold, 10
And there is salt to lengthen out the smart
In the affections of our heart,
And quarrels are blown up upon that head;
But not a friend that I would bring
This night can set us quarrelling, 15
For all that come into my mind are dead.

3

Lionel Johnson comes the first to mind,
That loved his learning better than mankind,
Though courteous to the worst; much falling he
Brooded upon sanctity 20
Till all his Greek and Latin learning seemed
A long blast upon the horn that brought
A little nearer to his thought
A measureless consummation that he dreamed.

4

And that enquiring man John Synge comes next, 25
That dying chose the living world for text
And never could have rested in the tomb
But that, long travelling, he had come
Towards nightfall upon certain set apart
In a most desolate stony place, 30
Towards nightfall upon a race
Passionate and simple like his heart.

5

And then I think of old George Pollexfen,
In muscular youth well known to Mayo men
For horsemanship at meets or at racecourses, 35
That could have shown how purebred horses
And solid men, for all their passion, live
But as the outrageous stars incline
By opposition, square and trine;
Having grown sluggish and contemplative. 40

6

They were my close companions many a year,
A portion of my mind and life, as it were,
And now their breathless faces seem to look
Out of some old picture-book;
I am accustomed to their lack of breath, 45
But not that my dear friend’s dear son,
Our Sidney and our perfect man,
Could share in that discourtesy of death.

7

For all things the delighted eye now sees
Were loved by him; the old storm-broken trees 50
That cast their shadows upon road and bridge;
The tower set on the stream’s edge;
The ford where drinking cattle make a stir
Nightly, and startled by that sound
The water-hen must change her ground; 55
He might have been your heartiest welcomer.

8

When with the Galway foxhounds he would ride
From Castle Taylor to the Roxborough side
Or Esserkelly plain, few kept his pace;
At Mooneen he had leaped a place 60
So perilous that half the astonished meet
Had shut their eyes, and where was it
He rode a race without a bit?
And yet his mind outran the horses’ feet.

9

We dreamed that a great painter had been born 65
To cold Clare rock and Galway rock and thorn,
To that stern colour and that delicate line
That are our secret discipline
Wherein the gazing heart doubles her might.
Soldier, scholar, horseman, he, 70
And yet he had the intensity
To have published all to be a world’s delight.

10

What other could so well have counselled us
In all lovely intricacies of a house
As he that practised or that understood 75
All work in metal or in wood,
In moulded plaster or in carven stone?
Soldier, scholar, horseman, he,
And all he did done perfectly
As though he had but that one trade alone. 80

11

Some burn damp fagots, others may consume
The entire combustible world in one small room
As though dried straw, and if we turn about
The bare chimney is gone black out
Because the work had finished in that flare. 85
Soldier, scholar, horseman, he,
As ’twere all life’s epitome.
What made us dream that he could comb grey hair?

12

I had thought, seeing how bitter is that wind
That shakes the shutter, to have brought to mind 90
All those that manhood tried, or childhood loved,
Or boyish intellect approved,
With some appropriate commentary on each;
Until imagination brought
A fitter welcome; but a thought 95
Of that late death took all my heart for speech.

[Dark Muse]

Out of curiosity I did a little research on Major Robert Gregory, he was an Irishman born in 1881 and died 1918, he was a very accomplished cricket player as well he excelled at bowling, boxing and horse riding. He was also an accomplished artist.

He was killed at the age of 37 in the war, he was an airman and an Italian pilot mistakenly shot him down.

[Quark]

Oh, good, we've moved on to the next poem. I was wondering how long we were going to linger on the first one. I'll post something on this after I get back from the store.

[Quark]

When I read this poem I see the calm, reflective mood of the first poem being overwhelmed by loss. The first few stanzas have an even tone and portray the deaths blandly, but the death of Robert Gregory is too much for the tone of the first stanzas. This is partly setup, of course. Yeats uses the first stanzas to heighten the effect of the last ones. To show how much Robery Gregory meant the poet remembers some other people who don't matter quite so much. Yet, the first stanzas could also represent a different way to regard the passing of Robert Gregory. Either way, the sixth stanza marks the change.


They were my close companions many a year,
A portion of my mind and life, as it were,
And now their breathless faces seem to look
Out of some old picture-book;
I am accustomed to their lack of breath, 45
But not that my dear friend’s dear son,
Our Sidney and our perfect man,
Could share in that discourtesy of death.


Out of curiosity I did a little research on Major Robert Gregory, he was an Irishman born in 1881 and died 1918, he was a very accomplished cricket player as well he excelled at bowling, boxing and horse riding. He was also an accomplished artist.

He was killed at the age of 37 in the war, he was an airman and an Italian pilot mistakenly shot him down.

I was also curious who exactly the poem was remembering. Good work, DM.

[JBI]

Our Sidney? He is comparing him to the Poet/critic Sir Philip Sidney? I think it would make sense in context.

[Dark Muse]

When I read this poem it seemed to have such a sad note. I wondered when this one was written. Though it was written about the death of one of his friends, the way it goes on, it made me think of a person growing older, while everyone he use to know is now dead.

And towrd the very end he seems to be thinking of his own death which he feels is near at hand, though he could just be feeling his mortality more having had someone he know die.

[sofia82]

.

NOW that we’re almost settled in our house
I’ll name the friends that cannot sup with us
Beside a fire of turf in the ancient tower,
And having talked to some late hour
Climb up the narrow winding stair to bed: 5
Discoverers of forgotten truth
Or mere companions of my youth,
All, all are in my thoughts to-night, being dead.


The persona, I of the poem, can be identified with the poet himself with lots of biographical references. It is an elegy written on his dear friends sudden death, Robert Gregory as Dark Muse Mentioned in January 1918 and it is written at the same time. It is interesting that Coole Park belongs to Lady Gregory which is the setting for the previous poem we discussed.

This "we" is Yeats and his wife who recently moved into a new house in "Thoor Ballylee, an old Norman tower not far from the Gregory estate". It has a melancholic and elegiac tone remembering all those friends of Yeats who are not alive now.

About the time, there is an emphasis on the present time (Now, Tonight) in comparison to all the friends lived in the past and even the ancient tower. It seems to me all belong to the past except the poet himself. (I have not refer to the next stanzas, up to now maybe I change the attitude)

The pattern is aabbcddc (it is interesting that I searched this pattern in Google and most of the results belong to Yeats' poems, does anyone know if there is any significance in this rhyming pattern?)


I tried to find the meter in the first stanza but I got confused and got nowhere. It is interesting that up to line five there are only a few words with more than one syllables and mostly not stressed. Choosing simple words in this form does signify the elegiac and melancholic tone of the poem? Moreover, when he wants to refer to those dead friends, suddenly the words have more than two syllables like "discoverers, forgotten, companion."

Can anyone help in finding the exact meter of this stanza?

[JBI]

I believe it is a variant on iambic pentametre with the second and third last line in tetramter to add emphasis.

[JBI]

Hmm, since no body is posting anymore... does someone want to take another poem from the bunch?

[quasimodo1]

To JBI and all, sorry to be so absent of late; I do have a comment on the second poem. This evening. q1

[sofia82]

Not yet, please wait.

[Quark]

I'm ready for the next poem. Sorry I couldn't post over the weekend. I was away and wasn't able to get to a computer.

[sofia82]

I changed my mind, as quasimodo1 post the comment i prefer to start the third poem.

[quasimodo1]

"I balanced all, brought all to mind,
The years to come seemed waste of breath,
A waste of breath the years behind
In balance with this life, this death." For some days now, pondering these first three poems, no comment seemed really relevant. Probably just because these poems are just so accessable and uncomplicated. Let me take exception to Quark's comment as quoted above and insist Yeats still had the ability to create more complex forms but I don't think he wanted that in this writing. The forseen death seems to have taken on almost a serene quality, i.e. complete and non-stressed acceptance. These poems are much more enjoyable than I remembered from the first reading (back in the day).

[sofia82]

When will we go to the next poem?

[quasimodo1]

Anytime you want, Sofia.

[sofia82]

Anytime you want, Sofia.

But what about the rest! JBI should post the new poem or ...?

[quasimodo1]

Sorry, JBI will decide about moving on.

[quasimodo1]

W.B. Yeats (1865–1939). The Wild Swans at Coole. 1919.

4. Men improve with the Years



I AM worn out with dreams;
A weather-worn, marble triton
Among the streams;
And all day long I look
Upon this lady’s beauty
As though I had found in book
A pictured beauty,
Pleased to have filled the eyes
Or the discerning ears,
Delighted to be but wise,
For men improve with the years;
And yet and yet
Is this my dream, or the truth?
O would that we had met
When I had my burning youth;
But I grow old among dreams,
A weather-worn, marble triton
Among the streams.

[Dark Muse]

I am starting to notice a theme here.

I love the language and imagery of this poem.


I AM worn out with dreams;
A weather-worn, marble triton

I loved these first lines, they really set the tone of the poem.


Upon this lady’s beauty
As though I had found in book
A pictured beauty,

I loved these words


Or the discerning ears,

Considering the above imagry used, I found this reference to be a bit currious


But I grow old among dreams,
A weather-worn, marble triton

I really like the way the last lines were slightly altered for the ending, but I was currious about the refernce to the "streams" and the meaning of that image.

[sofia82]

W.B. Yeats (1865–1939). The Wild Swans at Coole. 1919.

4. Men improve with the Years

You forgot the third one, An Irish Airman foresees his Death ?

[sofia82]

A beautiful one! At least not wandering in the world of the dead but in the world of dreams. It is interesting that being worn out with dreams, he dreams about the beauties which is represented by the beauty of the lady, and in the middle of dreaming makes himself return to the world of reality not knowing if he was dreaming or not indeed. I love this one. And a few questions,


I AM worn out with dreams;
A weather-worn, marble triton
Among the streams;

I wonder if this marble triton refers to the mythological Greek god, the son of Poseidon, or just a kind of sea shell? If it refers to the son of Poseidon, is there any significant relationship between this triton and the lady?

Does this lady represent his poetical genius in his old age, and when he says


O would that we had met
When I had my burning youth;

does he want to state that this poetic genius is now in its height or not? Or just it is a dream?

The Rhyme scheme is aba cdcd efef ghgh aba, What does this repetition of the first three lines signify, returning and remaining to/with the same dreams? And this scheme represents different phases in his thoughts?

[Dark Muse]

I wonder if this marble triton refers to the mythological Greek god, the son of Poseidon, or just a kind of sea shell? If it refers to the son of Poseidon, is there any significant relationship between this triton and the lady?

I beleive it was meant to be the Tritins of the Greeks, I saw it as they are the ones older than the gods whom have now fallen back into obsoleation. They lost thier place to make room for the "new" ones, being the Gods.


Does this lady represent his poetical genius in his old age, and when he says

That is an interesting thought, the way he talks about her being upon a page. Perhaps she is his muse


does he want to state that this poetic genius is now in its height or not? Or just it is a dream?

I would say, that he is trying to suggest that the youth was his hieght.

[JBI]

Yes, poem #3 was missed, and a very popular poem it is too. But lets talk about this one first, I guess, since it's already quite underway, and there is no need to digress now.

This poem seems to me at first a play on Marlowe's Shepard to his Live, and other such pastoral style poems written in English, and the Greek tradition. He is lamenting, it would seem, his inability to go on consummating his relationship with the "nymph", in this case referring to young women, because he has grown old by the stream, and therefore cannot partake any more.

The poem is loaded with allusions to old age, regret, and rings similar to Frost's Road not Taken, in the sense that it ponders, and laments, the linear flow of time, and talks about the regrets of aging, of knowing you had wasted time in your youth, and not being able to change anything.

The poem itself seems rather simple, and flawed by language in many areas (the language has not reached the perfection Yeats achieved in other poems, and relies on simplistic imagery and repetitive words and lines), but still has something, that great line of irony:

"Delighted to be but wise,
For men improve with the years;
And yet and yet
Is this my dream, or the truth? "

Yeats is asking if such knowledge and experience is said to increase man, are we but lying to ourselves. He is unable to do what he likes best, that is, attract and have a relationship with a nymph, and he realizes that everything else, the experience, the knowledge of the world, the successes and failures in his life, mean nothing, because though he understands, he cannot experience, and therefore is living through what cannot or had not been done, instead of what he wishes could be done.

[Quark]

This poem seems to me at first a play on Marlowe's Shepard to his Live, and other such pastoral style poems written in English, and the Greek tradition. He is lamenting, it would seem, his inability to go on consummating his relationship with the "nymph", in this case referring to young women, because he has grown old by the stream, and therefore cannot partake any more.

That's a good parallel, JBI, but I think the theme may be more general here. The woman appears to the poet as more than just a romantic interest. She's the embodiment of the speaker's idea of beauty, and the poet is noticing--with mixed feelings--that he isn't as swayed by her as he used to be. Marlowe's pastoral is good place to start, but the poem goes beyond it.


The poem is loaded with allusions to old age, regret, and rings similar to Frost's Road not Taken, in the sense that it ponders, and laments, the linear flow of time, and talks about the regrets of aging, of knowing you had wasted time in your youth, and not being able to change anything.

Right, but just as in "The Wild Swans at Coole" the lament is softened by some positive feeling of wisdom. The line "For men improve with the years" gives him something to hold on to.


The poem itself seems rather simple, and flawed by language in many areas (the language has not reached the perfection Yeats achieved in other poems, and relies on simplistic imagery and repetitive words and lines), but still has something, that great line of irony:

The language is simple, but I think the pace of the poem is very well-done. It speeds up when he contemplates woman--as though his heart is racing. Then, it slows and breaks into a regular cadence when he talks about his wisdom. I don't think those four lines are irony, though. They seem more like ambiguity. The question at the end goes unanswered.

[JBI]

I interpreted the "for men improve with years" to be sarcastic, ironic.

[sofia82]

That's a good parallel, JBI, but I think the theme may be more general here. The woman appears to the poet as more than just a romantic interest. She's the embodiment of the speaker's idea of beauty, and the poet is noticing--with mixed feelings--that he isn't as swayed by her as he used to be. Marlowe's pastoral is good place to start, but the poem goes beyond it.

I agree with Quark. It is a good parallel, but more than that one. Although both can be correct. It is a kind of lamentation or elegy but it depends on what you consider this lady in beauty. If she is the embodiment of romantic interest as the love, yes it is parallel to Marlowe's poetry and she is the nymph. But if she is the emblem of idea of beauty (Quark said) and I call it artistic beauty (as Dark Muse said the Muse), it is more than a pastoral poetry with romantic interest.


Pleased to have filled the eyes
Or the discerning ears,

I think "filled the eyes and discerning ears" represent the art in different forms (for Yeats maybe poetry) besides the beauty of the lady. And this "discerning ears" may represent the songs/poems by the Muses. So, in addition to the beauty in appearance there is the beauty in sounds (spoken/musical).


Right, but just as in "The Wild Swans at Coole" the lament is softened by some positive feeling of wisdom. The line "For men improve with the years" gives him something to hold on to.

JBI said it is ironic and sarcastic, and you said it gives him something to hold on to. A question, does Yeats put the idea of poetic genius and experience against each other? (Experience vs. genius)?


The language is simple, but I think the pace of the poem is very well-done. It speeds up when he contemplates woman--as though his heart is racing. Then, it slows and breaks into a regular cadence when he talks about his wisdom. I don't think those four lines are irony, though. They seem more like ambiguity. The question at the end goes unanswered.

I like the idea of the pace of the poem.

[quasimodo1]

Yeats very subtly, even sub-consciously brings celtic

sybols and druidic concepts to these poems, giving

them another dimension and fatalistic ambiance.

This comes off with the lightest of touch, in my

view. In "An Irish Airman Forsees His Death" the

concept of fate, the cross (celtic cross, melding the

Christian cross with a circle), the "lonely impulse of

delight" which here is to die at an apex of life. Also

the use of balance, also a pagan concept with much

wider parameters than today's usage. In "The

Collar-bone of a Hare", the title refers to a symbol

from celtic/pagan usage where a druid would look

through the circular hole in said bone to see the

past or similar type divination. Playing the pipes is

an obvious reference and piercing with a gimlet has

the extended meaning as a corkscrew would twist

and pierce simultaneously. Laughing over quiet

(untroubled) waters is equally druidic. These

concepts add to these poems in an almost

diaphanous way, but with heavy effect.

[quasimodo1]

Anyone care to bring this relaxed thread back to life.

[sofia82]

I wonder, too. What about next poem?!

[Quark]

I do hope the discussion continues. I'd like to stop in and make a post every once in a while, but I'm too busy elsewhere on LitNet to contribute frequently.

Where are we in The Wild Swans at Coole, anyway?

[JBI]

An Irish Airman foresees his Death


I KNOW that I shall meet my fate
Somewhere among the clouds above;
Those that I fight I do not hate
Those that I guard I do not love;
My country is Kiltartan Cross, 5
My countrymen Kiltartan’s poor,
No likely end could bring them loss
Or leave them happier than before.
Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
Nor public man, nor cheering crowds, 10
A lonely impulse of delight
Drove to this tumult in the clouds;
I balanced all, brought all to mind,
The years to come seemed waste of breath,
A waste of breath the years behind 15
In balance with this life, this death.

[JBI]

... anyone still interested in this?

[Dark Muse]

Oh I did not know a new poem was posted. For some reason I did not get the e-mail thingy to notify me of new replies untill just now

[JBI]

OK, here's the question, what is this "lonely impulse of delight" that drove him to the skies, and his inevitable death?

[Dark Muse]

This poem seems to be a bit more pessimistic than the ones we have previous read, though following much the same themes as the previous poems. Though I am not sure if this one is so much about the idea of growing in years, but rather it seems like a complete resignation to death.


Those that I fight I do not hate
Those that I guard I do not love;
My country is Kiltartan Cross, 5
My countrymen Kiltartan’s poor,
No likely end could bring them loss
Or leave them happier than before.
Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
Nor public man, nor cheering crowds, 10
A lonely impulse of delight

He does not express any love, nor care for anything. He does not care about his fellow man or his country, nor honor and glory, but rather he seems to be completely apathetic and the only reason he has gone to fight, is perhaps to quicken is death.


The years to come seemed waste of breath,
A waste of breath the years behind

These lines seem to suggest that life in itself is a waste because he knows he is going to die, so there really is no point to living at all.

[Dark Muse]

Does: Those that I fight I do not hate/ Those that I guard I do not love” refer to the plight of the Irish airmen in the war? They had to fight for Britain, not Ireland, specifically, so they did not "love" those they had to guard.

It could, though he states that he he was not made to fight, but choose to do so of his own accord.

After reading this poem over a few times, and considering some of the past poems we have looked at, I do not think that this poem was meant to be partrotic or political in anyway. But it seems to be about a man whom has simply given up and accepted that death is inescapable so he might as well just give himself over to it.

[innocentdiva94]

please help me ihave to submit an assignment tommorow for the following line plz help me itz urgent

i have looked upon those brilliant creatures,
and now my heart is sore.

and this line also plz help me fast itz urgent

their hearts have not grown old;

[innocentdiva94]

thank u i got it

[quasimodo1]

Searching for something original to say of these Yeats poems, I find that they all, almost speak clearly for themselves and require no interpretation or analysis. Its all been done, with a few notable exceptions. Yeats is now being brought into (has been brought) the digital age. Digressing from this thread's purpose a little... http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/20/arts/design/20dwye.html?_r=1&ref=books&oref=slogin# --- http://video.on.nytimes.com/?fr_story=1d933b7a401812e13341edb76287c6574ce321a8 ---

[quasimodo1]

Ok poetry fans, Here are some tentative choices to give new life to the Poetry Bookclub: Billy Collins: The Trouble with Poetry (collection, 2005) Sylvia Plath: Crossing the Water (collection, 1971) Theodore Roethke: Sequence, Sometimes Metaphysical Poems (collection, 1963) Langston Hughes: The Panther & The Lash (collection, 1992) and Marianne Moore: Illusion is More Precise than Precision (collection, 1992) Anyone of these would be perfect for a discussion of the value (if any) of poetry to youl. q1