March / Ireland Reading: Dubliners by James Joyce [Archive]

ben.!

03-02-2008, 08:36 AM

I finished Dubliners at the start of this year. I had read it for a looong time, since about the half-year (for some reason it took me a while!).

I have to say what's said to be the greatest short story ever written, The Dead I found didn't really strike a chord with me like in his other stories, such as Eveline, An Encounter or Two Gallants. I found them amazing, the little portraits he paints of everyday people going about everyday things, and how they suddenly have these little epiphanies about what they're life is really about...but keep doing whatever they're doing all the same!

Well, I guess I did find The Dead sort of struck a chord, but I mean, it was so long and drawn out...I think he could've halved the story and it the ending would have had a stronger impact, the bit in the hotel room, perhaps as a separate story.

The conversations of famous tenors and things over dinner was quite long and laborious. I guess all I really identified with was the beginning with the introductions of people, the...narrator, as it seemed to float from one place to the next in The Dead, you got the feeling you were just waltzing and swaying to different conversations. That was an awesome feeling, for me anyway. But yeah, I think a lot of The Dead could have been shortened somewhat.

But, all in all, really enjoyed Joyce's Dubliners! I'm psyching myself up to read Ulysses. That'll be a challenge. I'm waiting with abated breath until that day when I walk into a year 12 classroom, and being asked an all manner of questions about why I have such a huge book on top of my pile. Especially from the english teacher. Me reading Ulysses I think is an A+ for achievement straight off! :D

Cailin

03-02-2008, 07:10 PM

NickAdams

03-02-2008, 11:56 PM

I've just finished Counterparts and found it the most engaging. My favorites so far are: An Encounter, Araby, A Little Cloud and Counterparts. I loved the end of After the Race.

They say nothing really happens in these stories, but I disagree and have ignored my wifes call for dinner because of my focus on Joyce's stories. Maybe it was different in Joyce's time, where people were use to the traditionl novel. The mundane and trivial has become the conviention, so it's not something I have to adapt to.

Kent Edwins

03-03-2008, 02:37 AM

So far, I've read about half the stories. After reading Ulysses, this is a welcome change. I like the tight, descriptive prose, and I also disagree that the stories are "about nothing". If anything, they take very realistic situations and force you to reflect on them. I'm still not sure if this is a superior form of writing or not, but it's certainly an interesting one.

The story I most recently finished was The Two Gallants. I had the reread the last few paragraphs a few times, and still I'm not sure what the significance of the gold coin is. Can anyone elucidate the point that is supposed to make for me?

Joyce's vocabulary, by the way, is stellar. I've had to open a dictionary up at least a few times every story, only to still find myself baffled by the use of the word in the context Joyce uses it. For example, in the "The Sisters" how does one lay solemn and "copious" (bottom of page 5 in my Bantam Classics version)?

But, all in all, really enjoyed Joyce's Dubliners! I'm psyching myself up to read Ulysses. That'll be a challenge. I'm waiting with abated breath until that day when I walk into a year 12 classroom, and being asked an all manner of questions about why I have such a huge book on top of my pile. Especially from the english teacher. Me reading Ulysses I think is an A+ for achievement straight off!

This seems to be the biggest appeal of reading Ulysses. I suppose that, in the past, the books content was very fresh and controversial. Obviously, now our society embraces all manners of things that Joyce may have considered to be "taking it too far", so one of the biggest advantages to reading something like Ulysses is being able to say that you've read something less than 10% of the people who read it can understand.

Seriously, though, that's not the only reason to read the book. There's a lot going on there. Just don't do what I did and read it without any sort of help the first time around. Make sure to get a nice, annotated version. Or, then again, don't. Joyce didn't mean for it to be read annotated the first time, after all!

ben.!

03-03-2008, 03:03 AM

This seems to be the biggest appeal of reading Ulysses. I suppose that, in the past, the books content was very fresh and controversial. Obviously, now our society embraces all manners of things that Joyce may have considered to be "taking it too far", so one of the biggest advantages to reading something like Ulysses is being able to say that you've read something less than 10% of the people who read it can understand.

Seriously, though, that's not the only reason to read the book. There's a lot going on there. Just don't do what I did and read it without any sort of help the first time around. Make sure to get a nice, annotated version. Or, then again, don't. Joyce didn't mean for it to be read annotated the first time, after all!

I'm also planning to read Ulysses is for the statement you just posed, that to be able to say I've read something that only 10% of the people who read it can understand. Plus being able to read one of the hardest novels ever written of the 20th century, and indeed one of the best novels written of the 20th century. I'm currently halfway through Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. That's a very interesting book too. I've been to the James Joyce centre, when I was in Dublin halfway through last year. I really enjoyed it, however I forgot what the thunder-words were in Finnegans' Wake...there was a little fact-note on the stairs that explained them...they're meant to be if you times the syllables or something they divide into a perfect 100...or something. I'd love to know what they meant again, because I thought that Joycean fact was cool.

Though I forgot to mention I enjoyed Counterparts as well, that's a good short story of his. Joyce, for me anyway, with his short stories, seems to write with this air of mysticism and the ethereal, as if the people he is characterizing are sort of...archetypes, frozen in time.

Did anyone else get that 'suspended archetypal animation' sort of feeling as they went? I also found them quite cold, as someone else previous has already mentioned, and quite dense to read.

Kent Edwins

03-03-2008, 09:58 AM

Did anyone else get that 'suspended archetypal animation' sort of feeling as they went? I also found them quite cold, as someone else previous has already mentioned, and quite dense to read.

Now that you mention it, I do too. Not because the characters are some kind of far off paragons, but because the characters feel so real. These characters could just as well be you or me or anyone. So far, though, the character that has caught my attention the most is Eveline. In the introduction, it said that the character Eveline is supposed to represent Joyce's beloved Nora, only under different circumstances.

I'm currently halfway through Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. That's a very interesting book too. I've been to the James Joyce centre, when I was in Dublin halfway through last year. I really enjoyed it, however I forgot what the thunder-words were in Finnegans' Wake...

Good work. I need to get started on Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man myself. I've heard that it's the necessary prologue to Ulysses, as well as a book very worth reading by someone of my own age and considerably more tackle-able then Ulysses or, worst of all, Finnegan's Wake. I admit I'm afraid to touch that last one, but after I'm finished rereading Ulysses this summer perhaps that's something I'll look into doing.

SleepyWitch

03-03-2008, 10:29 AM

I think I've got these stories somewhere in my bookshelf. If I can find the time to read them, I might join you guys

NickAdams

03-03-2008, 10:49 AM

The story I most recently finished was The Two Gallants. I had the reread the last few paragraphs a few times, and still I'm not sure what the significance of the gold coin is. Can anyone elucidate the point that is supposed to make for me?

Joyce's vocabulary, by the way, is stellar. I've had to open a dictionary up at least a few times every story, only to still find myself baffled by the use of the word in the context Joyce uses it. For example, in the "The Sisters" how does one lay solemn and "copious" (bottom of page 5 in my Bantam Classics version)?

1: Lenehan had the women steal it from her employer.

2: Copious- full of thought, information, or matter.

Do you think the old man was masturbating when he left the boys in An Encounter?

Niamh

03-03-2008, 12:43 PM

Still trying to locate my copy. Looks like i may have to buy it again.

Kent Edwins

03-03-2008, 06:24 PM

Do you think the old man was masturbating when he left the boys in An Encounter?

It's very possible. Especially of the guilt associated with Masturbation in Catholicism, as Ireland was mostly Catholic (or at least Christian) at the time. I admit that that is the impression I got originally. The man leaves the children thinking somewhat lusty thoughts, and then reappears reprimanding himself and all those who express his previous views. This could represent not only that guilt, but the inconsistency between what many people practiced as opposed to what they preached.

I did read somewhere, I think in the introduction, that "Dubliners" are stories of anger that Joyce wrote. The common theme is that they all deal with things that were ruining Dublin at the time.

Walter

03-03-2008, 08:02 PM

NickAdams

03-04-2008, 11:26 AM

Niamh

03-04-2008, 12:19 PM

I can't remember the story in which it appears, it's one of the earlier ones, but Joyce uses the similie "shaking like a leaf". I wonder if the phrase was in common use in his time.

Does anybody think Joyce is inconsistent in his attempt of objectivity?

Shaking like a leaf?
:lol: Thats a term we use in ireland to say you were terrified/ afraid, or freezing cold....

Dubliners is just displaying the life that Joyce saw and disliked about Dublin at the time. Each story is supposed to deal with realities he saw, and things people did. In the Dead, the dull conversation over dinner, and becoming aware of the reality but not doing anything about it and continuing on, is something that has happened to us all. Its like he's calling us all cowards, telling us to do something that we dont think we can. I mean how many of us have been slapped in the face by reality, but when it came to doing something about it, didnt, and continued on because it was expected of us?

NickAdams

03-04-2008, 05:49 PM

Shaking like a leaf?
:lol: Thats a term we use in ireland to say you were terrified/ afraid, or freezing cold....

My mother used that term a lot and her mother was of Irish descent. I can't remember if it was used in first-person narrative or not. If yes then it's fine, because it's the characters voice, but it would be too cliche to be a part of an objective narrative.

JBI

03-04-2008, 06:27 PM

I thought "A Little Cloud" was the most moving of all the stories. How, the shy narrator, unable to express himself, yet desiring to tell his wife his feelings, and to show to his friend his life was worthwhile, ends up realizing that his own son has usurped his wife's affection. Heartbreaking, yet completely realistic.

I think the thing with Joyce is, as I have heard a critic say, though forget which one, we all want to know who his characters are, and how he knows them, since the range is so fascinating, and each story is so plausible and realistic, yet it is impossible to see how Joyce could have accumulated such a great insight into the variety of people living in Dublin, from all forms of society.

Niamh

03-04-2008, 07:03 PM

You obviously haven been to dublin!:p Everywhere you turn you meet someone different form all society as you say. But then again i suppose it is something i would notice because i'm a dubliner. (shame theres no shrugging smilie) It would have been the same for Joyce. It also should be pointed out that he has experienced the variety of society himself growing up; going from middle class society in bray to working class inner city dublin. He'd have seen teh snobbery of upper classes and the poverty of families thrown together in tenements..

Kent Edwins

03-05-2008, 10:02 AM

I thought "A Little Cloud" was the most moving of all the stories. How, the shy narrator, unable to express himself, yet desiring to tell his wife his feelings, and to show to his friend his life was worthwhile, ends up realizing that his own son has usurped his wife's affection. Heartbreaking, yet completely realistic.

You're right! What a great and moving story it was! Little Clouds (who doesn't have any "Little Clouds" that hang over them) will definitely go down in my memory as being one of the better and more personally touching stories I've read.

Janine

03-05-2008, 05:40 PM

The Dead left me somewhat for cold the first time I read it too. Then I went to the Joyce Centre and sat down at a live action version of the story where the audience were welcomed as guests. Returning to the story I found it extremely moving. Has anyone seen the John Huston film?

Yes, Cailin, I have seen the film and infact own it on VHS tape and love it. I was about to mention it when I read your post. I have watched it many times now and it only gets better. They say it was Houston's 'Valentine' to Ireland and he features his daugther in the film. I love all the characters and the acting is superb; I think one can get a better picture of what is going on conversationally in the story. I have read the story many times as well, and the last lines strike me all the time, right straight to the my core, like an arrow. I also like the film called "Nora" which explores the personal relationship between Joyce and his wife. The film stars two very fine actors that pull it off well - Susan Lynch and Ewan McGregor. If you see the film, you will understand that the story in "The Dead" that the wife tells her husband, Gabriel, is indeed the actual story that Nora told to Joyce when they were married. This part is autobiographical and I think, when I found this out it gave the story "The Dead" much more meaning and depth for me. personally. I think the complexity of Gabriel's feelings at the end of that story is what makes the story so compelling. I always ponder the last lines for days, after reading the story again or seeing the film or the biographical film, which gives it even more poignancy.

I think it is interesting what you say, Nimah, about Dublin today. We are lucky to get a first hand impression from you, since you actually live there. Do you think, that in Joyce's time, the situations of diversity in the big city were as apparent as they are today? I am just curious and like to learn more about that time period in Dublin history and Joyce's time. I also am quite interested in Dublin, present day.

One of my favorite of the "Dubliners" stories is "Araby" and I do love the story "The Dead". It certainly is a great collection and diverse and I wish I could currently find my book, which seems to be eluding me from my bookshelves. I read the entire book a few years ago, but since have re-read "Araby" and "The Dead." I also have read "Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man" which is excellent, but somehow I love the short stories of Joyce's best of all.

Niamh

03-05-2008, 05:47 PM

Janine

03-05-2008, 09:33 PM

I recon it is still somewhat the same as it was back then.
The thing about Joyces Dublin is what was going on back then. The Irish Literary revival which was mainly headed by Aristocrats, but the players that preformed in some of the theatres were from every society. O'Connell street (or Sackville street as it was called back then) was one of the main streets in Dublin at the time, same as now. Some of the pricey shops where there, but yet literally around the corner were tenements, so the wealthy upper class, middle classes, working classes and the down right poor were never that far from each other.
Not too mention all the nationalism. was like an addictive drug back then. Alot of patriotism..and he was surrounded by it.

Thanks Niamh, this is some good first-hand information from a native Dubliner. I wonder though how different Dublin is from other big cities. Is it the close proximity of the neighborhoods and how they overlap, or border each other? Is it the combination of the various classes living side-by-side that makes Dublin unique? It seems in parts of NYC, there are areas like this, where there might be pricey shops, but then a few blocks from there, there are tenements or very poor streets.
The nationalism and patriotism make sense to me. I can see where that was a huge element in Joyce's writing especially in "The Dead" story and the story about a board room...I forget the exact name; woe is me - I still have not located my book of "Dubliners".:bawling:

edit: I just looked it up and the story is "Ivy Day in the Committee Room"...it has been awhile since I read it but it seemed to be strong on political, nationlistic, patriotic views....as least I think....I need to review it actually.

Niamh

03-06-2008, 06:03 AM

Janine

03-07-2008, 01:08 AM

Well like most places, Dublin is split into areas. Dublin 4 being one of the most expensive places to live in the city. Its home to most of the Ambassadors to Dublin, Filty rich, The Four Season, and RDS, But Dublin 4 also consists of Ringsend which is a bit dog rough, run down and working class.
On the northside of the city we have another couple of examples. Clontarf is a very settled middle class area,quiet, respectable, but then there is also a part of Clontarf thats more working class than the rest.
Most parts of inner city Dublin have new posh apartment blocks side by side with council flats. Its just the way Dublin is really....

Thanks Niamh, that makes sense to me. I guess it is very much like many cities but maybe more so back in Joyce's day in distinction in this divided way. It is interesting to hear of all the different names of the areas or districts. Niamh, you can be our 'good-will ambassador' to Dublin and educate us all.;)

I gave up hunting for my book and checked "Dubliners" out of my local library tonight. It should be interesting to re-read some of the stories.

Kent Edwins

03-07-2008, 02:47 AM

A little off topic, but does anyone know what "class" Joyce would have been considered? In which area of Dublin would he have lived?

Niamh

03-07-2008, 06:53 AM

He was at first probably middle class. His dad had a very good job they lived in Bray until only a little while after his dad lost his job. I think his family moved back into dublin from there, most likely inner city dublin. He attended a school on the north richmond street, which is one of the streets mentioned in dubliners.

Janine

03-07-2008, 03:46 PM

That is funny, I was going to ask the same question. Glad that got answered. Thank, Niamh....very helpful.

Since someone mentioned the story "A Little Cloud", I decided to start with that one, since I could not clearly recall it; so I read half of it last night. I liked it so far; unfortunately I feel asleep reading it. When I finish up, I will talk a little about it. I was lucky enough to get this book from my library, which includes commentary notes at the back - they seem to be very helpful.

Niamh

03-07-2008, 06:31 PM

so I read half of it last night. I liked it so far; unfortunately I feel asleep reading it.

Thats never a good sign!!!:p

Janine

03-07-2008, 10:30 PM

Thats never a good sign!!!:p

:lol: Niamh, it can be the most exciting book and I will nod off. Audiobooks are even worse for me. I lay down with headphones on and I am doomed. I usually wake up hours later, all the room lights are still on and the batteries are now low and I missed most of the CD or the MP3 file, since it finally shut off. It is a sure cure for insomnia! ;) :eek2: :lol: It is called 'trying to do too darn much!'...it was after 3:30 AM last night when I fell asleep, and after viewing two movies, so I guess I can be excused. Hopefully, I will finish up the story tonight...and stay awake. I made cappuccino after dinner, so that might help revive me. :eek::D

Kent Edwins

03-08-2008, 03:42 AM

Janine

03-08-2008, 06:20 PM

I nodded off whist reading "The Ivy League Committee Room" today. I was tired and not really getting it, I guess. But I can nod off while reading anything, so it's no big deal.

I've finished all the stories except for the Dead now. That story is the most famous, so I can't wait to read it. I'll share my thoughts on it sometimes tomorrow.

Kent, of all the stories, I found that one the hardest to get through and to understand. I can see how you would nod off.

"The Dead" is a great story - a perfect story in my opinion. I like the film by John Houston, also. I mentioned it a few posts back. If you have a chance do see it someday. They say it was Houstons' valentine to his native Ireland. It perfectly captures the story in my opinion. I own the film on VHS tape and have viewed it more than once. I love it!

Drkshadow03

03-09-2008, 08:09 PM

I nodded off whist reading "The Ivy League Committee Room" today. I was tired and not really getting it, I guess. But I can nod off while reading anything, so it's no big deal.

The story makes a lot more sense if you understand Irish history. Not that I claim to be an expert in Irish history by any means. The story makes numerous references to Charles Steward Parnell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Stewart_Parnell), the so-called "uncrowned king of Ireland" and a major political figure in Irish history. The date that story happens on is a day in remembrance of him. Joyce is playing on the irony of his character's insouciance about their existence, their political status, who their politician even happens to be. They superficially are engaging in politics, but the characters' central concerns are money and alcohol. All the political expression in the story is superficial, symbolized when they burn up the card with their politico's name on it to use as a cigerrette. This is hammered home when the conservative Crofton goes out stumping for Tierney even though they are of different parties.

In other words, all of this is a far cry from the days of Parnell. Irish politics is in a state of decay as are Irish lives in general in this story. This is emphasized by the lack of coal to relight the fire at the very beginning; they can't afford coal to light a fire. That opening also further symbolizes Irish history as burning out before it ever gets going, this endless reusing of the ashes to offer a little flame that doesn't really do much against the rain and cold, which will inevitably run out and stop burning.

Janine

03-10-2008, 04:27 PM

The story makes a lot more sense if you understand Irish history. Not that I claim to be an expert in Irish history by any means. The story makes numerous references to Charles Steward Parnell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Stewart_Parnell), the so-called "uncrowned king of Ireland" and a major political figure in Irish history. The date that story happens on is a day in remembrance of him. Joyce is playing on the irony of his character's insouciance about their existence, their political status, who their politician even happens to be. They superficially are engaging in politics, but the characters' central concerns are money and alcohol. All the political expression in the story is superficial, symbolized when they burn up the card with their politico's name on it to use as a cigerrette. This is hammered home when the conservative Crofton goes out stumping for Tierney even though they are of different parties.

In other words, all of this is a far cry from the days of Parnell. Irish politics is in a state of decay as are Irish lives in general in this story. This is emphasized by the lack of coal to relight the fire at the very beginning; they can't afford coal to light a fire. That opening also further symbolizes Irish history as burning out before it ever gets going, this endless reusing of the ashes to offer a little flame that doesn't really do much against the rain and cold, which will inevitably run out and stop burning.

Wow, thanks so much, Drkshadow, for writing all this. Now the story makes so much more sense to me. I have not yet re-read it, but I recall that, when I did a few years back, the meaning was vague and eluded me, because I am quite ignorant of the Irish politics in the story. I only had such a vague idea of it. The devices you mention here, such as the fire and the fact they can't afford to light it, and the other symbolism/imagery is quite revealing to me. Now when I re-read the story, I am sure I will have a much better understanding and persepective on it. Thanks again.

hellsapoppin

03-10-2008, 06:09 PM

Joyce was a Catholic writer. The Trinity is a Catholic symbol which represents a holy union that appears repeatedly in Dubliners and is presented in various forms.

The book is structured into three parts with part one comprising the first three stories, part two the next eight, and part three the next three, with ''The Dead'' being an addition that had not been initially appended to the collection. This structuring was determined by Joyce scholar William Powell Jones in his book James Joyce and the Common Reader*.

"The Sisters'' has an incomplete trinity in the form of two nurses (in Ireland as in Australia, a nurse is addressed as 'sister') and their deceased and rather dissolute brother.

In ''An Encounter'' the narrator sought to form a trio of kids who sought fun by playing hooky. One of the kids shows up but the third never makes it. Thus, a second series of incomplete trinity.

In ''Araby'' there are two sets of trios in the young narrator with his aunt and uncle and the trio of the young lady and what appears to be two suitors.

In ''The Dead'' we see 'Three Graces'. These represent ''those qualities which give charm to nature and to wisdom, love, social intercourse...'' **

The word ''catholic'' means universal. In Joyce's portrayal of Dublin, he portrayed a society that served as microcosm for the universal experience. As a Catholic writer he was concerned with injustice, despair, and disharmony. Note the language that appears throughout the stories:

'no hope', 'faintly', 'darkened', 'corpse', 'paralysis', 'maleficent', 'sinful', and 'deadly'

And all this is just on page one! Just about every other story is replete with similar language.

The book's inital story ''The Sisters'' and its final one ''The Dead'' have one theme in common: death --- again, another Catholic theme.

Yet, one could help but sense a feeling of hope and of ultimate reward. Perhaps of redemptive reward. Yes, still again - another Catholic theme.

* University of Oklahoma Press, 1955, pp 13,14

** Gifford, Don: Joyce Annotated, Univ of Calif Press, 1982, p 118

Drkshadow03

03-10-2008, 08:21 PM

The book's inital story ''The Sisters'' and its final one ''The Dead'' have one theme in common: death --- again, another Catholic theme.

Yet, one could help but sense a feeling of hope and of ultimate reward. Perhaps of redemptive reward. Yes, still again - another Catholic theme.

hellsapoppin:

What is specifically "Catholic" about death? The way it is depicted in the stories? Can you explain?

Could you also explain more ny what you mean when you say that there is a feeling of hope and ultimate reward at the end? In which stories?

I don't mean to challenge your reading, but I felt the exact opposite in many of these stories, there is always a sense of stalemate, paralysis, of going nowhere, and movement that only leads to dead-ends. The only one I haven't read yet is "The Dead." So I am actually rather curious to hear how you came to that very different reading because I wonder if I might be missing something important, especially as a non-Catholic.

hellsapoppin

03-10-2008, 11:18 PM

How I wish Jones' book was available online. His essay on Dubliners would easily answer your queries.

There never has been a rigid definition of what constitutes a Catholic writer, except for the fact that they have recurrent themes in their works. I mentioned a few previously such as life-and-death, redemption, injustices, and stream of consciousness, suffering, quest for preservation, and various conflicts. They share values, adhere to certain traditions, and seek to learn or to impart wisdom --- all within a Catholic framework.

As for death, you may be familiar with William Cullen Bryant's great poem Thanatopsis { http://www.poetry-archive.com/b/thanatopsis.html } . The title means 'a study of death'. Yet, a reading of it reveals that it is a strong affirmation of life.

In his essay Jones determined that the stories were in stages which reflect growth and maturity. First, early childhood, then adolescence, then adulthood. While the early stories deal with paralysis, dead ends, and seeming hopelessness as you accurately report, the stories gradually evolve into a more positive set of themes. Jones writes, '' 'The Dead' {reveals} a new theme, that of mature love, sympathetically portrayed. The geniality and warmth of the story, in spite of its title, seem to have been intended by the author to lift the collection [that is the earlier set of stories] from its 'special odour of corruption' ... ''

Note the main character in ''The Dead'' is Gabriel. In Catholic teaching he is the Archangel empowered to bring comfort and hope to humanity. Note also how it starts with the word 'Lily' --- the lily symbolizes death and rebirth and is used at Easter to symbolize the hope of heavenly rebirth by Catholics during those holidays.

Other Catholic themes include lapsed Catholics who are those no longer associated with the church and who often succumbed to dissipation. There is the theme of Marianism where nurturing women are portrayed in the stories. Lastly, there is the hope of redemption in ''Grace'' - ''with God's grace, I will rectify this and this. I will set right my accounts''.

Indeed, positivity with hope of redemption is the concluding theme of the stories.

Niamh

03-11-2008, 06:17 AM

There never has been a rigid definition of what constitutes a Catholic writer, except for the fact that they have recurrent themes in their works. I mentioned a few previously such as life-and-death, redemption, injustices, and stream of consciousness, suffering, quest for preservation, and various conflicts. They share values, adhere to certain traditions, and seek to learn or to impart wisdom --- all within a Catholic framework.
I dont think deming these themes as "catholic Themes" Is correct. They are fairly universal and appear in all kinds of literature.

Note the main character in ''The Dead'' is Gabriel. In Catholic teaching he is the Archangel empowered to bring comfort and hope to humanity.

Gabriel also happens to be a very common name in Dublin. and possibly was very common at the time Joyce wrote The Dubliners. Surely it would make sense if he was writing a book bases on us Dubs, he would use the names everyone hears daily in and around the city! Personally i dont see the "Catholic theme".

Okay Hells...so we've heard the interpretation from a guy called Jones from you. Why dont you actually tell us what you actually thought of the book.

hellsapoppin

03-11-2008, 09:06 AM

I attended a couple of Joyce book club meetings in New York about 30 years ago or so. Catholic symbolism was said to be a recurrent theme in his writing. Again, catholic means universal and it is a consensus among Joycian scholars that his books have universal themes. My point in quoting Jones is that I agree with his interpretation.

Yet, it is a fact that interpretations of books can change with the times. In his days Euripedes was thought to be a misogynist because he wrote of women who could think. In modern days he was described as an early feminist because these portrayals.

In my notes above I also quoted Gifford and he lists all the Catholic symbols in Joyce. He specifically identifies Gabriel and Lily as Catholic symbols. Perhaps people today are viewing Joyce in a different light. If anything, that adds immeasurably to the merits of Joyce's work.

Kent Edwins

03-11-2008, 11:03 AM

Just finished with Dubliners a little bit ago. The Dead was unlike anything I have ever read before! What a tremendous build-up, for one. And I am baffled and moved at the same time as to how effective Joyce can describe even the most mundane events. I admit, I'm no macho guy, and found myself breaking out in tears at the end of the story; more so then I ever have for any other piece of writing. Now I understand why Joyce is widely considered to be one of, if not THE, greatest writer of all time. I'm so glad I read this book! I'm definitely casting my vote for this one as a classic. Joyce is no hack!

superunknown

03-11-2008, 01:56 PM

I read Dubliners a year and a half ago but I don't remember it too well from then apart from the very basic plot. I've just finished Araby. I loved The Sisters and An Encounter. Is it just me or do I notice a style which would deeply influence Hemingway? Joyce doesn't openly give anything away or make things blatant but understates things very subtly so that you have to read between the lines, and this is something that's true for Hemingway as well. In fact I remember the first time I read The Sun Also Rises I didn't really think too much of it as I hadn't grasped the subtle nature of his writing, but once I'd read some more of his stuff and went back to it I realized how good it was. Probably this is the same reason why The Dead left me cold last time I read it as well, hopefully it will be different this time. But the way in which The Sisters approaches the subject of the priest and whatever it is that he's done without ever mentioning it, like it's something so unpleasant that the characters go out of their way not to put it directly into words, reminds me particularly of Hills Like White Elephants. But maybe I can't help but make this association because I just read Men Without Women last month and am currently reading For Whom the Bell Tolls along with Dubliners.

Janine

03-11-2008, 03:42 PM

'The Dead' is a masterpiece, in my opinion. The more one reads it the more one does read between the lines and sees all the little nuances of the characters. It is excellent the way it builts up to that ending. The ending does bring out so much in way of emotion. One's heart goes out deeply to Gabriel and also to his wife. As I said, before this story that the wife reveals to her husband is based on a true story that Nora, Joyce's wife revealed to him after they had been married and had several children, so that I feel this story is completely personal to Joyce, himself and the way he felt at the time.

And I totally agree with Niamh, these stories are universal and not Catholic. If anything they are critical of the Catholic way of thinking and narrowmindedness at that time in history. I hope I am not offending any devout Catholics by saying this but if you know Joyce's history, he left Dublin and went to Italy to escape this sort of biasness. So considering this fact, why would his stories be only Catholic. I don't understand that sort of thinking and I believe all commentary is not accurate. Critics and analysts tend to read much more into things than they should. If Joyce were alive today he might laugh at so much emphasis being placed on the simple name of Gabriel. Besides Gabriel as the archangel is not just a Catholic symbol. It has many connotations. The spectrum is broader than that of just the Catholic Church.

Many of the things you said, Hellsapoppin, I was considering while I read, could apply to much broader interpretations. I don't think you should limit your thoughts to a few courses you took and one man's commentary on Joyce's work. I think you need to see the full picture, and a good biography of Joyce, would help you to see this. I read his brother's book and found it quite interesting; but God knows there are many more accounts of Joyce, that one could look into and get a good perspective on how the actual man/author thought and based his work on.

Drkshadow03

03-11-2008, 03:55 PM

I just read the first two chapters of James Joyce and the Common Reader by William Powell Jones.

Basically Jones is interested in the linguistic/stylistic shifts between Joyces' various projects. To put it another way, he is very interested in how Joyce evolves as a writer, going from the realist Dubliners to the experimental Finnegan's Wake.

In his chapter on Dubliners he makes the following important points:

1) Jones believes that Joyce wrote Dublin as a microcosm of the universal experience. (basically what Hellsapoppin states). The specific scenes of Dubliners represents the universal experience, even as Joyce also seems very interested in capturing his youth and the specifics/particulars of Irish life back then as accurately as possible

2) Jones insists that the order of the stories in Dubliners is extremely important; they are organized loosely by broad themes/content. The first three stories for example ("The Sisters," "An Encounter," and "Araby") are about childhood and having an experience that forces you to grow up or realize just how much of a child you truly are depending on how you want to read it (since I think you can read the narrator of these stories in either way). They go through different stages of life from being a child to adult maturity as Hellsapoppin points out.

3) The order of the tales reveal that many of the stories are thematic counterparts to each other, which is why the ordering matters. For example, "Two Gallants" has a playboy take advantage of a servent girl to get her to steal something financially from her employer, while "The Boarding House" has a mother and daughter who basically setup a man to take advantage of him economically. They are parallels and opposites of each other. "Eveline" and "After the Race" are paired, one is about a girl who almost goes off to Buenos Aires with her lover, only to hide behind her responsibility, the other is about a boy who goes off on adventure with rich Continentals only to spend his father's money irresponsibly.

4) Jones notes that most of Joyce's stories in Dubliners are slice-of-life tales that center around the character's epiphany. He compares that to religious epiphany in the New Testament, but never really discusses it beyond that. The purpose of bringing it up is more for analogy.

5) Jones also sides with those who see these stories as centrally about paralysis with the exception of The Dead, which he sees a warm portrait of Mature Love.

6) Jones talks a lot about how Joyce thought of Dubliners as a history of Irish "moral life", but again never specifically ties this to Catholicism.

Jones is virtually silent in the first two chapters of his book about Joyces' Catholocism. The idea for "epiphany" that is so important to Joyces' structure with each tale might have originated in religious texts, but it is divorced from any real religious connotations. I suppose you could read Jones's comments on "The Dead" as a kind of symbolic ressurection from all the sins and decay of the other stories (You quote Jones as saying, '' 'The Dead' {reveals} a new theme, that of mature love, sympathetically portrayed. The geniality and warmth of the story, in spite of its title, seem to have been intended by the author to lift the collection [that is the earlier set of stories] from its 'special odour of corruption' ... '')

I'm assuming most of the Catholic reading comes from Gifford, however. I'm sure there is plenty of scholarship addressing how Joyces's Catholicism influenced his work. However, just because a theme is universal doesn't make it automatically a Catholic theme; all or most writers write universal themes to a certain degree. Simply because the etymology of Catholic (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=catholic) once meant "Universal" is confusing etymology with current definition (which refers to a specific religion with specific practices). Also, saying that Joyce was interested in certain themes because of his Catholicism (probably true enough and a point I can agree with) is not the same as saying he was specifically attempting to write Catholic themes.

I also hope I am not coming off as being anti-Catholic, especially as a non-Catholic (we unfortunately live in a world where people can be insensitive to Christians). So I want to explain why I am pushing this a little more. I guess what is bothering me still is I want MORE out of the Catholic reading. I want to understand better how you [Hellsapoppin] see the Catholic motifs and symbolism adding up to and signifying a particular/specific meaning. It's all fine and dandy to point out that this story is doing this and that with the trinity, but it never tells me what you think Joyce is driving at by using that symbolism. That's what I really want to know.

Not to mention it seems to me that at times Joyce is extremely critical of both the church and his fellow Catholics as well as Protestants (and perhaps Jews too).

*** Main Implications/Lessons from Jones: I wish I had read Dubliners in the correct order seeing how important the stories ordering happens to be!!!

Janine

03-11-2008, 05:05 PM

Drkshadow, I found that completely helpful and puts the ideas into perspective. I too, wish I had read the stories in the correct order. I don't believe I did when I read them a few years back, but then my memory fails me on that fact. I will remember to read them this way on my second reading.
DS, you layed out all of that very well, like an outline and I like your mention of the "epiphany" idea in Joyce's stories - vitally important fact to discuss.

hellsapoppin

03-11-2008, 06:22 PM

DrkShadow,

Great to see that you looked up Jones which does back up some of what I wrote previously. Gifford is recommended as well for further development of the issues I raised.

I own about 10 books on Joyce (and probably gave away about another 10 several years ago). It is amazing how the writers (including Kenner, Ellman, and Burgess) have different interpretations of the stories and their symbolism.

As for your question, ''it never tells me what you think Joyce is driving at by using that symbolism. That's what I really want to know.'' My answer: I am not sure, either! We see that the deceased priest lived a dissolute life --- did Joyce mean that he should have set a better example? As you just read in Jones, Joyce ''makes a comment on the moral history of mankind without moralizing''. So what, then, was he doing? I honestly do not know.

That is why I brought up the issue. Since I don't know the answer, what do you think he was driving at?

Janine

03-11-2008, 11:21 PM

hellsapoppin, could you please use quotes, if you are quoting another person who has posted a comment? I sometimes cannot differenciate between what you say, or what others said, and the comments you make responding to them.
To enclose a body of type in quotes, you just use [quote] at the beginning. At the end you use the same but with a slash / before the word quote. It would be emensely helpful if you could do this. I find your posts confusing to read. To begin with, if you want to quote someone who posted, you can just click on Quote, at the bottom of their post and you will see the formating already set up for you in the window that will appear. Again, this would be so helpful to others trying to read your posts.

hellsapoppin

03-12-2008, 12:05 AM

I specifically addressed DrkShadow and responded by saying ''as for your question''.

Hope this clarifies it.

ben.!

03-12-2008, 12:09 AM

I guess Dubliners requires a re-reading.

Can someone explain the significance of The Dead?

I personally found a lot of it was un-needed, and could have been cut into maybe two to three different stories.

Drkshadow03

03-12-2008, 01:27 AM

As for your question, ''it never tells me what you think Joyce is driving at by using that symbolism. That's what I really want to know.'' My answer: I am not sure, either! We see that the deceased priest lived a dissolute life --- did Joyce mean that he should have set a better example? As you just read in Jones, Joyce ''makes a comment on the moral history of mankind without moralizing''. So what, then, was he doing? I honestly do not know.

That is why I brought up the issue. Since I don't know the answer, what do you think he was driving at?

Ah, a true philosophical question. It's always interesting when the person raising the question isn't sure.

I'll put the question a different way: Can Joyce be a Catholic drawing on Catholic symbolism, but also be critical of the institutions and people's interpretations of Catholicism?

That's how I would read the questions you raise, particularly in light of the Trinity symbols you mentioned. They are almost always incomplete trinities. It seems to me someone caught up in their Catholicism might be very critical of priests and fellow Catholics who fall short of their standards, but for the purpose of getting at a purer religion perhaps.

This is tricky because I don't know enough about Joyces' biography and particular beliefs. Yet I would definitely say he depicts many of his priests in less than flattering light.

The obvious example you mentioned from "The Sisters," but also in stories like "Ivy Day in the Committee Room" where the priest himself is depicted as more concerned with business and money than traditional priestly duties (see my earlier post about that story to think about how this fits in with the larger theme). Seriously, he can't sit with his flock for a few minutes before rushing off? "Grace" itself is meant as comical and ironic filled with misinformation about the church doctrine and history. Not to mention the end has a shallow sermonizing that compares spirituality with a divine accounting.

Many of the stories, the more religious ones (the ones mentioned above) and the artistic ones ("Little Clouds" and "A Mother"), all seem to point to Joyce stating that art, religion, political participation has transformed into a business transaction, and that this is an extremely bad development in these three centers of human existence (the aesthetic, the spiritual, the political).

If you don't have art, politics, or religion/sprituality to be passionate about, then what do you have?

Janine

03-12-2008, 01:46 AM

I specifically addressed DrkShadow and responded by saying ''as for your question''.

Hope this clarifies it.

Suit yourself but it makes your posts difficult to read when you only use quotation marks to indicate the person you are quoting. That is why we have a quoting format here - it makes the passages stand out and one can see the comments by the current poster separately. I for one find your posts take longer to comprehend.

I would have to fully agree with darkshadow on his last post about the religious corruption or shady business aspects that are revealed, in the Joyce's short stories, in relation to the church. There is not only political corruption going on in his stories, but also church corruption.

ben.! I think a second reading of 'The Dead' might give you a better perspective of just how the various characters and the evening together and the internal thoughts of Gabriel, lead up to the ending of the story. There is a definite progression to the time that Greta and he will be left alone. You are missing much, if you think the other elements are not needed to tell this story well. For one thing there is a sense of 'forshadowing' throughout the story and the 'snow' acts as another character. The bonding or the isolation of the various characters; bonding, such as the old aunts and the family/friend themes run through the story and make the ending more poignant and meaningful. The last lines of the story are truly amazing and I recall on my first reading, just sitting there with the book remaining open to the last page and not wanting to close it. I knew at that moment I had just read something quite unusual and special and lasting.

hellsapoppin

03-12-2008, 08:15 AM

Janine

03-12-2008, 02:57 PM

Drkshadow - I like the way you phrased it when you said ''philosophical question'' in your excellent post. There are no right or wrong answers in interpreting what the author was driving at. Indeed, the freedom and flexibility to interpret along with our varying views is what makes it art.

I agree with that. Indeed all individuals will interpret the stories to suit themselves and that is 'art.' The only way we could truly be sure of what Joyce means by the stories and their meanings is if the author stood before us and explained himself. I don't think that is going to happen so we have to come up with our own conclusions or take from the stories our own deeper meanings. For one, personal experience always plays a role, in how we see a story. We are all tainted with our own prejudices/likes and dislike, and so we bring those into play as we read and discuss a story or novel. I, for one, think this is what makes us read and connect with certain stories and authors, and reject others. We can't completely depend on a commentary or critic to tell us the author's intentions or correct interpretations; we can only use those as tools, to further stimulate our own unique minds, and help us to think in various directions and present us with various new ideas on the texts; that is why we are here to exchange those ideas in open discussion groups. I often quote commentators myself, but I try and also discuss, what they are saying or ask for feedback from other posters, to see if their ideas are feasible. It is good to draw on a deep well of information that is available to us, about any author or any writing. But, like histories that are written by men, we can only take those ideas and consider them as accurate or reject them as not. In the end, it has to be left to individual choice, as to what we take away from the story/novel/book. This is what makes discussion so vital and such a fine learning experience.

hellsapoppin

03-12-2008, 05:03 PM

Janine,

Another excellent comment! That's what makes this forum so special.

:)

Janine

03-12-2008, 05:33 PM

hellsapoppin, thank you so much for your kind compliment.

Good news just came to me. My library's online audiobook download has a copy available of "Dubliners" audiobook. I am thrilled. I can review the book by listening to a narration. At least I can check the book out for 14 days time, but no copies are alowed on this book. There are others they do alow copying to MP3 players or CD's. Well, one cannot have everything, right? I am quite fortunate and I am sure the narrator will lend a certain new perspective to the stories.

Drkshadow03

03-12-2008, 06:50 PM

The only way we could truly be sure of what Joyce means by the stories and their meanings is if the author stood before us and explained himself.

Perhaps not even then as various literary theories like the Intentional Fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_fallacy), The Death of the Author (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author), and deconstructionism have attempted to show. :bawling:

Janine

03-12-2008, 09:53 PM

Perhaps not even then as various literary theories like the Intentional Fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_fallacy), The Death of the Author (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author), and deconstructionism have attempted to show. :bawling:

Perhaps but I think, unfortunately, that the presense of the author would be the only way we would all truly know his intentions. We can merely surmise what they are, but that is half the fun of discussing, isn't it? So cheer up and don't cry Drkshadow. Maybe we will all meet somewhere in an 'alternate universe' after death. It could be a fun party, with noteworthy individuals. Have you visited the "bring them back from the dead" thread? It is emensely entertaining. :)

ben.!

03-15-2008, 08:45 AM

ben.! I think a second reading of 'The Dead' might give you a better perspective of just how the various characters and the evening together and the internal thoughts of Gabriel, lead up to the ending of the story. There is a definite progression to the time that Greta and he will be left alone. You are missing much, if you think the other elements are not needed to tell this story well. For one thing there is a sense of 'forshadowing' throughout the story and the 'snow' acts as another character. The bonding or the isolation of the various characters; bonding, such as the old aunts and the family/friend themes run through the story and make the ending more poignant and meaningful. The last lines of the story are truly amazing and I recall on my first reading, just sitting there with the book remaining open to the last page and not wanting to close it. I knew at that moment I had just read something quite unusual and special and lasting.

Yeah, I see what your saying. I think my problem is this. I read Dubliners and when I read it in the back of my mind was where I had read a few articles about its hazardous publishing history. Joyce was rejected by nearly all the publishing houses in 1907 on grounds that Dubliners' stories were seen as too raunchy for the public. So I read The Dead and my mind kept searching for all these so-called 'naughty' bits. I couldn't find any all throughout Dubliners.

However, in The Dead, whenever it would say something like 'Gabriel went to entertain the two young ladies in the next room', I would automatically think 'Oooh, they're makin' love!'. It was quite a funny experience. Especially when things like 'He could hear the floorboards creak on the floor above while in the pantry'.

But I couldn't find anything remotely raunchy in The Dead or Dubliners, bar my own imagined goings-on. The only thing I found was in a reference note that stated that the title 'Eveline' Joyce might have used as a joke to make fun of the publishing press, as 'Eveline' is meant to be a word for prostitute or something...

So yeah, I kind of skimmed over all the symbolism in my search for Joyce's sexual allusions. Of which there were none, so I failed in my search on that account. :p

So if anyone could tell me if they find any sexual allusions OR hidden symbolism, I would much like to know about it! :D

PS. I myself did not get the feeling the old man was masturbating in An Encounter. Maybe I missed that too! :lol:

Janine

03-15-2008, 04:46 PM

ben.! well we now know where your mind is. :lol: Maybe you should read some D.H. Lawrence instead; "Lady Chatterly's Lover" might be to your liking. It was banned, as well; but I can guarentee it is a lot more sexual than "Dubliners"; for that matter so is "Sons and Lovers" and many of his other early novels.

Now in 'The Encounter' the only thing I could detect was that the guy was a pedifile(sp?) - child molestor, and the boys were probaby in some danger, but unharmed, since they retreated quickly. I can imagine in Joyce's day, how that story would go over...not well! Society was stuffy about these things.

hellsapoppin

03-15-2008, 09:16 PM

So if anyone could tell me if they find any sexual allusions OR hidden symbolism, I would much like to know about it!

a few symbols come to mind:

"totties" in 'An Encounter'

"The Madam" in 'The Boarding House'

"cocottes" and "the secrets of religious houses on the Continent" in 'A Little Cloud'

All symbolize sexual misconduct.

hellsapoppin

03-15-2008, 09:18 PM

A wonderful St Patrick's Day one + all!

http://www.alighthouse.com/lepclovertop.jpg

superunknown

03-16-2008, 01:20 PM

I'm going to Dublin tomorrow! I'll take my book along with me but I don't think I'll have time for much reading or observing how Joyce's portrait of Dublin relates to the modern day city, what with all the Guinness!

Drkshadow03

03-17-2008, 12:17 AM

Many have pointed out that Joyces’ work is extremely political. At times he criticizes class conditions (like in “After the Race” when he writes “ . . . sightseers had gathered in clumps to watch the cars careering homeward and through this channel of poverty and inaction the Continent sped its wealth and industry. Now and again the clumps of people raised the cheer of the gratefully oppressed”), he criticizes the limitations imposed upon women through gender, and through these critiques makes a case for Irish nationalism (though, he criticizes the state of Irish politics concretely as well). It would be a mistake to suggest that is only what is going on within these stories; it amazes one how the themes also transcend political commentary. I think by pondering these issues, however, we can consider the more interesting issue as to why a Catholic born writer from Ireland has so many references to the Jews in his work. His work does not entirely escape anti-Semitic stereotypes often depicting Jews as rich and greedy (among other undesirable qualities), but I think he may be getting at a more intimate political connection; the Jews and Irish are symbolically linked through the desire of a Jewish state circulating at the time and the desire for Irish home rule. The Jews figure as a symbolic presence in the texts that always reminds the readers of the Irish’s own plight of oppression and lack of self-rule. It also hammers home how international in scale many of his seemingly local themes happen to be.

“An Encounter” has to be one of my favorite stories in the collection. This story about two boys playing hooky from school perfectly captures the voice of a pervert pedophile who the boys encounter said to be based off a real life experience Joyce had at their age. The language is so subtle, yet powerful when the old man speaks of wanting to give the boys a whipping, a “nice warm whipping” at that (who would possibly think to put those adjectives together?). Earlier the boys watch the man masturbate out in the woods, which is never directly described, but through the boys’ reactions you somehow know what he is doing. It leaves one amazed at Joyce’s writing ability to capture this sort of perverted freak without any coarse bluntness that I could picture a lot of modern writers resorting to, including myself.

“Araby” is the story I never gave a chance and found myself loving this time around for its beautiful language. This story about youthful love and coming-of-age to realize the illusions of that love hits home on a theme I find particularly appealing in my fiction (Philip Roth’s “Goodbye, Columbus” one of my favorite books plays on similar themes). This is perhaps the most poetic of Joyce’s stories.

“After the Race” presents us with a young man racing with his richer French “buddies,” hoping to make his future by including some of his father’s hard-earned money into a business project only to lose that money by gambling with them. The irony of the story is that the only reason they were his friends was because of his money that he was going to invest in their business, now he no longer has money to invest in the business and he has defeated himself through his own irresponsibility.

“The Boardinghouse” is perhaps the one story in the collection that I would not describe as leading to paralysis as the female characters manage to move up in the social ladder. It’s a strange anomaly in the collection.

“A Little Cloud” is a story about a failed artist who meets with his journalist friend who has made it on the continent. He tries to imagine the art he would be capable of writing, which leads him to think about how his wife’s feelings have changed for him after the birth of their baby. At some point he comes to realize his whole life is lie, that his wife’s feelings for him have been transferred to the baby, but there are subtle hints I think that his wife never really cared all that deeply for him.

“Counterparts” is a nasty little story about a drunk whose alcoholism leads him to tell off his boss at work probably to jeapordize his job. He goes off to the bars with his friends, bragging about his daring at the office. Only as the night progresses he gets slighted by a passing girl in one of the pubs and at his friend’s hands in an arm-wrestling match. He comes home to take out his humiliation and frustration on his son. This is the most self-destructive of Joyce’s stories I think.

“Clay” is a story about spinster who attends a holiday part with the family of one of the boys she helped raised. This story plays on the narration. It is filled with ironic gestures of people making fun of her old age like when a store clerk asks if she will be purchasing a wedding cake (poking fun at her age and the likelihood that she will never get married) or when an old man on the bus basically hits on her and she thinks of him as a colonel, except he is most likely just riffraff from the street (she blinds herself to the truth because she wants to think of herself as young and beautiful still). These satirical moments lead to a more serious moment when she plays a holiday game and grabs a piece of clay symbolizing death (her likely future). The family redo her turn after a stunned silence, saying a mistake was made, and she instead gets a bible symbolizing she will soon enter a convent as a nun.

“A Painful Case” is about a lonely man who lives his life in isolation only to engage in a platonic liaison with an equally lonely married woman, but when the woman wants to transform their relationship into a romance it disintegrates, eventually leading to the woman committing suicide. Joyce again plays with the narrator’s viewpoint. The woman kills herself many years after the relationship ends, suggesting there were other events in her life during the intervening time that might have led to her suicide. The narrator ends up blaming himself, which only further underscores his own loneliness, but also reveals his intense narcissim. There is fruter subtext that suggests the narrator may be homosexual, hence why he rejects the woman (because he doesn't have interest in her sexually) and leads a lonely life (because the historical period and Catholic/Protestant climate of Ireland didn't allow for him to engage in his desires). The story also notes that an aesthetic life devoid of people misses the entire point of art, which is about human connections and self-reflection for the eventual purpose of human connection.

“A Mother” is about a typical stage mom, an all too familiar figure as my own life has seen me involved with quite a few theater companies when I was younger. A story about a woman living the life she always wanted through her daughter. A story about the art spoiled by crass consumerism.

“Grace” is a story that begins with a symbolic fall from drunkenness. It is a spoof on religion meant as comical and ironic filled with the characters spouting misinformation about church doctrine and history. It ends with shallow sermonizing that compares spirituality with a divine accounting, entirely confusing actual church doctrine (quoth the Jew).

Janine

03-17-2008, 02:25 AM

Excellent post, Drkshadow! Good synopsis on each story pointing out some key points. Very illuminating. It is good to see someone take the time to outline each story and comment so thoroughly.
I think the two stories I like best are 'Araby', because, as you put it so accurately, it is so very poetic and I love 'The Dead' because I know that story does directly involve feelings that Joyce himself, had biographically. I saw a film on Joyce and his wife Nora, which explored the telling of the boyfriend's death story by Nora to Joyce, which set off a whole series of events in the, already difficult, relationship the two had. This lent the story a certain allure for me, however the story is superb and stands by itself, as being like nothing else I had read before. The ending line, and images it evokes, is just so unique.

Drkshadow03

03-17-2008, 05:19 PM

I saw a film on Joyce and his wife Nora, which explored the telling of the boyfriend's death story by Nora to Joyce, which set off a whole series of events in the, already difficult, relationship the two had.

I don't know all that much about Joyce's biography. Could you share a little bit about that relationship? If you have the inclination.

Janine

03-17-2008, 06:06 PM

I don't know all that much about Joyce's biography. Could you share a little bit about that relationship? If you have the inclination.

Drkshadow, Well, I only know what I read online and then from the film I saw called "Nora", which is based on a biography, written by Brenda Maddox. I read her biography on D.H.Lawrence, basically dealing with his difficult-at-times and complex marriage. I found that very informative and since I had read another L bio, it seemed pretty accurate, but then who knows? I only know that Joyce exiled himself and Nora, not long after they meet and fell in love; so to speak they eloped secretly, and she became his common law wife. They moved to Trieste, Italy. There he worked at a university teaching, and also concentrated on his writing. They did move about quite a bit, throughout the years and they had two children - Georgio and Lucia. He was a good father and loved his kids, but he drank heavily. His brother lived with them for a time, but that did not work out well. His brother wrote a book on Joyce called "My Brother's Keeper". I read it - it is interesting. After they had been together for a number of years, Nora told him of the story of her girlhood and how she had been very close to this young man in the area she lived in Ireland, Galway. Her father found out and forbad her to see him and her parents arranged that she go away to a convent for study. One night the boy came to her house and threw stones at her upstairs window and he stood in the rain. He apparently was torn up about the separatation, loved her very intensely, and he was ill at the time. Later she learned he had gone home, then become bedridden with illness/fever and died shortly after. Naturally, she felt responsible and that it had been for the love of her. She ran away from her family and the convent and went to be a maid in Dublin. Shortly after she and Joyce meet on the street, looking in shop windows (something like that) and they began to see each other romantically and fell in-love.
The memory that she harboured all those years, really tore her appart. Joyce seemed understanding at first, but then he asked why she had not told him earlier. It seemed she just could not and then he became jealous when his friends, back in Dublin, told him a lie - that Nora had been intimate with them, as well as with Joyce, that she was a loose girl. That was all Joyce needed to stay away and feed his jealous rage. It was a very bad time of turmoil, but the two finally wrote very erotic letters to each other. According to the film, when Nora told him she was going to have the girl child christened he came back to her. They had quite a relationship of ups and downs and power plays. A big part of it was Joyce's drinking and I think basically, he was an alcholic for a time. Nora put up with a lot. Living with a genius is not easy. Also, he sometimes treated her as though she were inferior in intelligence, or so she felt he did. Eventually, other things happened to drive a wedge in their relationship (complicated); those were the final straws and consequently Nora packed up the kids and went back to Galway and to her parent's house. The parents assumed the two were married, but actually it was never a legal marriage; until much later when indeed they did rejoin, Joyce coming to fetch his wife. They makeup and did legally marry a number of years down the road. Well, that is a quick rendition of their married life. Financially, they lived 'hand to mouth'; sometimes they lived 'high off the hog', so to speak, and sometimes moved around struggling with Joyce trying to get his work published; Nora also saw publishers. Not an easy life back then, and often a huge strain on their relationship. I concluded that they did truly love each other, but the relationship was a very complex/enigmatic one, not easy to explain.
Of course, it would benefit you to explore more of his biography. There are good short ones on Wikipedia and also on this site.

Drkshadow03

03-18-2008, 10:18 PM

Thanks! That was very informative.

Janine

03-18-2008, 10:46 PM

Thanks! That was very informative.

Glad that helped you, Drkshadow. It was just my own rendition, in my words, of my impressions of what I had read. I kept rambling on.;) If you get a chance, see the film, "Nora"; it is quite interesting and very fine acting. Joyce is played by Ewan McGregor and Nora by Susan Lynch. My video store rented it, but then when they sold some, I bought a used copy. I have watched it several times now. Beware, it is rated R, I believe, and has some pretty lusty (hot) scenes.:brow: No, that is not why I bought the film. :lol:
The book, by his brother, also was quite interesting, although he never mentions the marital relationship. My library actually had that book available. I was so shocked. My library usually gets rid of the truly great books. I think they only own two Joyce books, maybe even just one.
I should probably read another biography on Joyce someday. I like prying ;) into the private lives of these authors. I am sort of drawn to reading true stories and biographies.

Drkshadow03

03-26-2008, 12:33 AM

"The Dead" was beautiful and does everything fiction is supposed to do. I felt that deep pang of emotion in my chest while reading some of these lines, and the ending is just absolutely stunning in both its emotional impact and the sheer beauty of its prose. In fact, the last half of this novella is gut-wrenchingly powerful.

I strongly disagree with William Powell Jones's assertion that this last story celebrates mature love and provides a sense of hope for the characters alleviating the tension of the all previous stories. This story about Gabriel Conroy and his wife attending a Christmas party at his aunts shows just how pathetic the "mature love" between Gabriel Conroy and his wife, Gretta, happens to be. His own remarks towards the end reveal the long decline in his relationship over the year into a state of emotionless paralysis, which is what makes this sudden burst of emotion for him so exciting.

While he is busy remember all the good times they had in between the dullness, she is busy remembering a long lost lover from her teenage years who died for her out of love sickness. His plans for renewed passion with his wife fizzles out as he learns the truth, and he's left contemplating his paralyzed life, at first envying the dead ex-lover, but soon moving beyond that envying as he stares out the window at the snow covering Ireland where both the living and dead freeze, suggesting both the living and dead are interchangeable.

The entire story is a metaphor for the paralysis of Irish national life. All the sub-themes of the other stories are repeated in what could be called the capstone of the collection, reiterating characters from previous stories, ideas, motifs, and themes. This story isn't a hope from those others, but the final nail in the coffin with what those others were trying to achieve.

Gabriel thinks about the events of the day only to accept how absurd his entire life has been, from the speech he gave, to the narcassistic way he acts around his aunts and people, to the vulgar drunks praising him. All of Miss Ivors accusations about him being a West Briton proved to be true. She as the Irish Nationalist calling him out on his absurd existence is the center of the story that connects the beginning, middle, and end.

At the end, Gabriel finally is able to connect with Ireland, the place he rejected this entire time, only to realize Ireland itself is in trouble and paralyzed. The relationship between Gretta and the dead lover, and Gabriel's subtle turn towards Ireland that moves him closer to Miss Ivor's position is related to each other in that Joyce suggests the past is always more emotionally satisfying than the present. Even more so he connects this to paralysis by the fact that the past is dead, you can't ever go back there. Gretta is literally mourning for a corpse right in front of her husband. Miss Ivors is speaking a dead language (when she leaves the party and drops a Gaelic line) that nobody understands anymore. Joyce, while perhaps admiring Miss Ivors's position as a Irish Nationalist and bemoaning that lost past, also recognizes you cannot base your movement into the future on sentimentalism about the past. In fact, one of the attributes Gabriel criticizes in himself is his own sentimentalism, a very telling moment that shows Miss Ivors's own positions do not escape scrutiny.

So quite literally this story is about death, how the literal death of a person can cause the death of another person's self-image, how the death of the past can cause the death of hope for the future. It's about the death of love, the literal death of a person, the death of Irish history, the death of hope for the future.