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atiguhya padma
09-24-2004, 06:15 AM
Would any Muslims care to explain this in the Koran:

8.12 When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore
make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of
those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off
every fingertip of them.

This is a particularly odious statement.

atiguhya padma
09-24-2004, 07:51 AM
Where's Littlenani when you need her?

I tell ya, that Koranic quote is even worse than some of the stuff in the Old Testament.

subterranean
09-25-2004, 12:36 AM
ever read the verse that said, religious men who go to heaven will get beautiful angels as their new beloved wifes..? however no verse who stated that religious women will get hot sexy husbands once they go to heaven..

not trying to disgrace the belief or the book. just wondering..

subterranean
09-25-2004, 12:39 AM
Where's Littlenani when you need her?

I tell ya, that Koranic quote is even worse than some of the stuff in the Old Testament.


pls share some "worse" quotations from bible, i'm interested to find out

caspian
09-25-2004, 04:59 AM
If you have no enough belief in God or if you don’t have quite strong faith in God you certainly may get idea to take GOD’s quotes as negative stuffs. I myself time after time get suspicions if I meet something at first sight quite unreasonable for me in Koran. But after getting explanation of these “unreasonable” stuffs my faith is growing. To understand Koran is difficult and you can’t get it without additional clue materials which explain real meaning of posts of Koran.

I found Online English translation of Koran quite incomplete. There should be given explanations of posts in brackets.
That’s why you can’t get that in this ayat (and in whole surah) God reminds about Badr fighting, where God helped muslims, (sending angels to help them) take victory at enemies of God. And this was the punishment way God chose for them. We know that we are rewarded and punished for our good and bad acts by God

Before take it so odious you should also pay attention to following ayats:

8.5.- Just as thy Lord ordered thee out of thy house in truth, even though a party among the Believers disliked it,

8.7 -Behold! Allah promised you one of the two (enemy) parties, that it should be yours: Ye wished that the one unarmed should be yours, but Allah willed to justify the Truth according to His words and to cut off the roots of the Unbelievers;-

8.8. That He might justify Truth and prove Falsehood false, distasteful though it be to those in guilt.

8.9. Remember ye implored the assistance of your Lord, and He answered you: "I will assist you with a thousand of the angels, ranks on ranks."

8.10. Allah made it but a message of hope, and an assurance to your hearts: (in any case) there is no help except from Allah: and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

8.11. Remember He covered you with a sort of drowsiness, to give you calm as from Himself, and he caused rain to descend on you from heaven, to clean you therewith, to remove from you the stain of Satan, to strengthen your hearts, and to plant your feet firmly therewith.

8.12. Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

8.13. This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.

8.14. Thus (will it be said): "Taste ye then of the (punishment): for those who resist Allah, is the penalty of the Fire."

8.17. It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself: for Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things).

8.42. Remember ye were on the hither side of the valley, and they on the farther side, and the caravan on lower ground than ye. Even if ye had made a mutual appointment to meet, ye would certainly have failed in the appointment: But (thus ye met), that Allah might accomplish a matter already enacted; that those who died might die after a clear Sign (had been given), and those who lived might live after a Clear Sign (had been given). And verily Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things).

8.43. Remember in thy dream Allah showed them to thee as few: if He had shown them to thee as many, ye would surely have been discouraged, and ye would surely have disputed in (your) decision; but Allah saved (you): for He knoweth well the (secrets) of (all) hearts.

8.44. And remember when ye met, He showed them to you as few in your eyes, and He made you appear as contemptible in their eyes: that Allah might accomplish a matter already enacted. For to Allah do all questions go back (for decision).

8.48. Remember Satan made their (sinful) acts seem alluring to them, and said: "No one among men can overcome you this day, while I am near to you": But when the two forces came in sight of each other, he turned on his heels, and said: "Lo! I am clear of you; lo! I see what ye see not; Lo! I fear Allah: for Allah is strict in punishment."

8.50. If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers (at death), (How) they smite their faces and their backs, (saying): "Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire-

8.51. Because of (the deeds) which your (own) hands sent forth; for Allah is never unjust to His servants:

8.60. Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

8.61. But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).

THE GOD IS MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL!

Sub, I'm sorry that my knowledge isn't so perfect on this subject and actually I've not finished reading Koran yet. Because I try to read Koran in original arabic. As my arabic is weak it takes quite long time to finish it. I'm sure there's something regarding what relgious women will get in heaven. It might not reflected in Koran, but there should be something in Hadises. I'll share it as soon as I get anything.

trismegistus
09-25-2004, 11:27 AM
Thanks, caspian, you've saved me some trouble with your quotes. I've found the problem with most of those who quote violent sections of the Koran (especially those who are using it to try to show that the Koran urges violence and thus the tactics of terror - and I don't necessarily mean you, atiguhya padma), take quotes out of the context in which they were written. Also many forget the early history of Islam.

I think the verse which follows the one you cite, ap, is the point. This charge is directed against those who are active enemies of Islam. Remember that early in its history, there were several quite serious attempts to destroy the faith, and what you have here is a response to that. There is nothing here to suggest that those who accept Muslims should be attacked. This injunction is specifically targeted at those who "contend against Allah and His Messenger."

I think it's also important to note that this is God's message to his angels. He is not sanctioning humans to take this action.

the mooring
09-25-2004, 08:38 PM
look my dears...iam really want to make frinds here so that i try to avoide the religuos conversations...
iam not a religous girl but ifeel sorry when isee there some people who attackes islam or koran ...the islam is full of mercy and kindness and intemacy ....it is not areligoun of terarrism as you think
in our religion there was awoman who enter Hill
do you know why???





because she didnot feed her cat or let it to eat from the earth
and in the contrary there was apersonwho enter Paradise because he gave water to a dog from adeep well even he was a tired


we have in koran (by the meaning):
"the one who kills a suol as if he kills all people and the one who rescues asoul as if he rescues all people

i learn from koran to respect my parents and obey them
i learn from koran to feed the poor people and take care about orphans by imbracing them and give them the love they need
i learn from koran to respect other religoins
i learn from koran to be honest, and kind with other and to be areal muslim
i learn from koran to be humble with old and weak people

and as our prophet said (by the meaning)
our God will helps the person who helps the other

my dear the propleme is not from koran but from the poor translation ...because ther are many arabic words dont have the same level of the meaning in the english language or any language sothat the real meaning will not be clear

re :wave: :wave: :wave: gards

Green Utopia
09-26-2004, 05:27 AM
Where's Littlenani when you need her?

I tell ya, that Koranic quote is even worse than some of the stuff in the Old Testament.


you are not respecting the Holy Book by describing it by saying 'even worse'
please every one :
for Allah's sake you have to pay respect a full respect when talking about us Muslims and our Holy Book The Nobel Qur'an...
I am realy getting angry when I see so called learners insulting and showing the hate which is inside their black hearts..
learners and readers of The Holy Qur'an please Pay respect to Our and your creator.for the words you read in Qur'an is Allah's words.
Hope to see such respectable learners of Qur'an











caspian..May Allah bless you and give a better reward...loads of love to you under the flage of Islam ....I'll make doa'a(pray)for you in the holy Mosque ..wishing for you the best,
Your sister in Islam,
Green Utopia

Miranda
09-26-2004, 11:43 AM
Green Utopia, You are angry, but you should not be. This thread is very thought provoking I agree, but it is also teaching others about Islam as you and others that follow that religion correct the things that can be misconstrued in it. I don't know much about Islam but I am always willing to learn and this is the first real discussion I have ever encountered where the Koran is being discussed. I always thought of the Islam as a peaceful religion. We have to be very careful how we talk here because otherwise this could cross over into a political discussion which is not allowed here. But in every religion there are always extremists and it seems to me that some of these extremists have done and are doing bad things in the name of Islam. This is a chance to show the truth of your religion and as you have already done, and to correct misunderstandings about it. I really want to learn more from your discussion.

I am a Christian and I could also get upset regarding what AP said, when he referred to the Old Testament of the bible. But I am not upset because what he says is actually right and there are some places in the Old Testament that appear to be violent, just the same as the Koran. But as someone else says, everything has to be looked at in context, not only literal but in what was also going on at the time of writing and the society in which it took place.

Understanding is the key to building bridges I think and learning about each other's religion is a starting place, wouldn't you agree? I would like to know more about Islam yet I dont want to study the Koran. I would like to have a better understanding of what true believers like you actually believe though and this would be a perfect opportunity to find out, if you would not be so angry, but still continue to explain as you and others have here.

Miranda

atiguhya padma
09-27-2004, 09:48 AM
Hey Caspian,

I take it Allah isn't a god of love then?

I mean listen, whether it is Allah, his army or whatever, it is till odious to decapitate people or chop their fingers off just cos they disagree with you or do not accept you.

Taliesin
09-27-2004, 10:21 AM
pls share some "worse" quotations from bible, i'm interested to find out

Really? Well, here are some:


In Holy Bible it is written:

13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.


31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.


25:5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.


32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.


9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

Now, what can we deduct from here:

Christianity and judaism are religions of violence and intolerance? Is it so at the moment? If you feel so, only then you should say that islam is violent and intolerant, because in Koran there are some violent suggestions.

caspian
09-28-2004, 11:37 AM
Hey Caspian,

I take it Allah isn't a god of love then?

I mean listen, whether it is Allah, his army or whatever, it is till odious to decapitate people or chop their fingers off just cos they disagree with you or do not accept you.

Ok, I wouldn't ask if you have faith.

I had belief in GOD more before I've started reading Koran - just because I always felt HIs existing. "Thus, if God is truly our creature, sustainer, provider and controller , then believing in him is an obvious requirement of accepting and submitting to one of the most significant truths about this world, about ourselves and about life."

ALLAH MUSTN'T BE COMPARED WITH whatever!!!!!!!

People are God's creature-
67.23 Say: "It is He Who has created you (and made you grow), and made for you the faculties of hearing, seeing, feeling and understanding: little thanks it is ye give.

67.24. Say: "It is He Who has multiplied you through the earth, and to Him shall ye be gathered together."

67.2.He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving;-
You should accept that GOD is Mighty in punishing those, who transgress in this test. AND He's Mighty in decapitation His own creatures or choping their fingers off if they don't accept HIM- their CREATOR.

Reading following ayats you can see that the creatures who were against GOD got their punishment (death) regarding circumstance in whch they were. Decapitation was not the definite one.

11(36) It was revealed to Noah: "None of thy people will believe except those who have believed already! So grieve no longer over their (evil) deeds.


11(37) "But construct an Ark under Our eyes and Our inspiration, and address Me no (further) on behalf of those who are in sin: for they are about to be overwhelmed (in the Flood)."


11(38) Forthwith he (starts) constructing the Ark: Every time that the chiefs of his people passed by him, they threw ridicule on him. He said: "If ye ridicule us now, we (in our turn) can look down on you with ridicule likewise!

11(39)But soon will ye know who it is on whom will descend a penalty that will cover them with shame,- on whom will be unloosed a penalty lasting:"

11(40) At length, behold! there came Our command, and the fountains of the earth gushed forth! We said: "Embark therein, of each kind two, male and female, and your family - except those against whom the word has already gone forth,- and the Believers." but only a few believed with him.

11(41) So he said: "Embark ye on the Ark, In the name of Allah, whether it move or be at rest! For my Lord is, be sure, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful!"

11(42) So the Ark floated with them on the waves (towering) like mountains, and Noah called out to his son, who had separated himself (from the rest): "O my son! embark with us, and be not with the unbelievers!"

11(43) The son replied: "I will betake myself to some mountain: it will save me from the water." Noah said: "This day nothing can save, from the command of Allah, any but those on whom He hath mercy! "And the waves came between them, and the son was among those overwhelmed in the Flood.

11(44) Then the word went forth: "O earth! swallow up thy water, and O sky! Withhold (thy rain)!" and the water abated, and the matter was ended. The Ark rested on Mount Judi, and the word went forth: "Away with those who do wrong!"

11(45) And Noah called upon his Lord, and said: "O my Lord! surely my son is of my family! and Thy promise is true, and Thou art the justest of Judges!"

11(46) He said: "O Noah! He is not of thy family: For his conduct is unrighteous. So ask not of Me that of which thou hast no knowledge! I give thee counsel, lest thou act like the ignorant!"

11(47) Noah said: "O my Lord! I do seek refuge with Thee, lest I ask Thee for that of which I have no knowledge. And unless thou forgive me and have Mercy on me, I should indeed be lost!"

11(48) The word came: "O Noah! Come down (from the Ark) with peace from Us, and blessing on thee and on some of the peoples (who will spring) from those with thee: but (there will be other) peoples to whom We shall grant their pleasures (for a time), but in the end will a grievous penalty reach them from Us."

11(49) Such are some of the stories of the unseen, which We have revealed unto thee: before this, neither thou nor thy people knew them. So persevere patiently: for the End is for those who are righteous.

atiguhya padma
09-28-2004, 12:11 PM
Caspian,

1) Don’t tell me what comparisons I can or cannot make. That is entirely up to me. You ain’t got no say in the matter OK? I live in a democratic society that encourages me to make comparisons, to think for myself.
2) I was thinking of reading the Koran, but quite honestly, if it’s all as tedious as this I doubt that I will
3) Out of interest, what does it mean when the Koran says <Such are some of the stories of the unseen, which We have revealed unto thee>

I mean who is ‘we’?

subterranean
09-28-2004, 09:09 PM
Taliesin, you forgot to write from which book you quoted those, as you know I'm not a bible expert...

AP, for your number 1 point, it's understandable if Caspian thought like that (however this is not mean his is justified). He lives in (i believe) a less democratic country (like my self) where people (in general) weren't raised to accept different thoughts and opinions openly.

Green Utopia
09-29-2004, 04:28 AM
Thanks Miranda for your decent and polite reply:)
Actually I wish to answer the others questions here but my English need to be improved regarding choosing the proper equivalents especially when it comes to the Koranic texts.So people may understand. ..please Mirry don't blame me in being angry because I love Allah ,it's my duty to answer and to defend .because the Koran is written in Arabic(my mothertongue)..at the same time I have to avoid answering those who have the habit of insulting or using the bad words in describing other religions..Caspain handeled the situation here very well...Allah actually advises us by saying that "don't insult the others(non Muslim) for they'll insult Me unfairly without knowledge"...so Allah teaches me to be polite where or when or how ever I am ..
I welcome your questions Miranda with much happiness and warmth feelings because you are really a true seeker for knowledge ..email me at:[email protected]
you are going to receive answers that are true about How islam is unfairly treated and misunderstood....then our discussions will be presented here for the others to get benefit from a successful way of asking and getting the answers..

Much appreciations,
Green Utopia

Green Utopia
09-29-2004, 04:41 AM
atiguhya padma


notice that.... We.. is started with a capital letter in The Holy Koran and also notice other pronouns like He ..Him also adjectives like ...Almighty... all refered to Allah the Merciful Creator..that you may understand if you want open your heart and your eyes and think positive

atiguhya padma
09-29-2004, 04:45 AM
Erm... what r u going on about? was that supposed to answer my question? I don't really care whether its capital letter or not. Being a humanist, and a rationalist, I'm unlikely to use capital letters in such ways.

caspian
09-29-2004, 08:28 AM
Caspian,

1) Don’t tell me what comparisons I can or cannot make. That is entirely up to me. You ain’t got no say in the matter OK? I live in a democratic society that encourages me to make comparisons, to think for myself.
Did I tell “You can’t” or "You mustn't"? I used expression “It mustn’t be done!”. There is so much stuffs that we mustn’t do: we mustn’t steal, kill, eat unwashed fruits, offend others, prostitute and etch. For me comparing GOD is sin. As you told about democracy I have also rights to say what I think. I hope you don’t think that I better keep silent scaring that it may be gotten like undemocratic post. By the way don’t believe Subterranean about my country. As I don’t know from where he/she is, I am not able to compare how similar our countries regarding this subject. But I must say the winds of democracy are blowing in my country since USSR was collapsed. (The only problem of my country is corruption. The government officers (taking bribe) theirselves arrange necessary documents for ones who want to get citizenship of Europe countries -as the better way to get citizenship is to prove (with documents) that you left your country because there’s no democracy and you were pressing by government.)
Even in case if my country is less democratic, I’m quite objective and democratic to accept or respect different opinions. And I’m here for discussion, not for arguing. Honestly my knowledge in Islam is very little, I put here only my thoughts. To tell truth I've read 8th surah after question of A.P.


2) I was thinking of reading the Koran, but quite honestly, if it’s all as tedious as this I doubt that I will

It’s better first read Islam history, then The Koran.

I just wonder if you have read Bible? If yes, how did you find it; so tedious or different?

3) Out of interest, what does it mean when the Koran says <Such are some of the stories of the unseen, which We have revealed unto thee>

I mean who is ‘we’?

Saying WE GOD means HIMSELF. I think as saying “I” might seem vaingloriously GOD call Himself as “WE”. I think so, maybe there’s another explanation.

I think it would be intersting to know how the ones who’ve read all Holy books found each of Books.. is there any similarity between them or are they different?

Dear, Green Utopia, great thanks for your doas(pray) for me.
I think you shouldn't react so abruptly. What would you feel if you were me and got such guestions from your countrymen or from your friends . Your English can't be worse than mine- it really would be very interesting to read your posts, as you have quite good knowledge. I would like to get something new for me from them.

Green Utopia
10-02-2004, 05:28 AM
salam caspian,,
You're welcome dear

atiguhya padma
10-04-2004, 11:52 AM
Well as long as the expression "it mustn't be done" doesn't mean that I can't compare Allah to whatever I want to, then that's fine. I mean there is a big difference between your examples of killing etc. To kill someone really mustn't be done, unless under exceptional circumstances. To compare Allah to anything else is merely a conceptual exercise, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that in my book. So I shall continue to make comparisons that involve Allah.

subterranean
10-19-2004, 08:30 PM
AP, I thought as a humanist, and a rationalist, you're unlikely to use capital letters in such ways...as in Allah or God
(I'm just babling there)

atiguhya padma
10-20-2004, 04:38 AM
Your quite right SubT. I think I just probably treated them as names, like Subterranean or Atiguhya Padma. But you are right. I shouldn't encourage such religious nonsense as may be interpreted from such usage.

AP

subterranean
10-20-2004, 09:22 PM
Well I'm not saying that I share your opinion there, cause I do embrace a particular belief. I just want to see a consistency.
:)
Cheers Andy

kushi
10-21-2004, 10:40 AM
Erm... what r u going on about? was that supposed to answer my question? I don't really care whether its capital letter or not. Being a humanist, and a rationalist, I'm unlikely to use capital letters in such ways.

It's called respect...

kushi
10-21-2004, 10:50 AM
Your quite right SubT. I think I just probably treated them as names, like Subterranean or Atiguhya Padma. But you are right. I shouldn't encourage such religious nonsense as may be interpreted from such usage.

AP


what do you mean my religious nonsense?
purposely misunderstanding you..- if you dont believe in a religion then i personally think you have no right to say its nonsense yeah?

atiguhya padma
10-21-2004, 10:50 AM
Why should I respect something I don't believe in? and why should capital letters denote respect? Its only a different way of typing a letter for chrissakes! Get real.

atiguhya padma
10-21-2004, 10:55 AM
Do I have to have a right to say anything???

There are lots of things I don't believe in. Not believing in something doesn't take away the 'right' (whatever that means) to say something about what you don't believe in. Are trying to say atheism is redundant? that somehow you can only speak on religion, politics, literature etc if you believe in it?? What are you, the speech police??

kushi
10-21-2004, 10:59 AM
well i mean... you dont have to believe in something to have respect for it...
and god no im not a freaking speech police... i dont care if you can or cannot have your own right or whatever..i wasnt even asking or talking about that

Jester
10-21-2004, 02:15 PM
Every religion has its ups and downs, no one is more violent then the other and i guess when we come to the Koran, Bible and other religous texts from those lines of religion we're asking ourselves to kind of judge them from our own backgrounds... i know its hard not to I started reading the bible from and Agnostic point of going in there looking for all these problems and all these hatefull words and passages and I realized that that's not what the religion is about to begin with, that the people are violent and that their are the goods that may be harder to find because human mind always looks for the issues. :argue:

subterranean
10-21-2004, 08:33 PM
Jester, wish you would have use more comma ' ,' or a period '.'..or anything else, of course where they are applicable. Would help to understand a post for slow person like me ;)


i dont care if you can or cannot have your own right or whatever..

Hi Kushi, personally you should care, coz i think this is one of our main fundamental rights, which is to have the freedom to say what we think. Ignorance could lead to an awful excess.

kushi
10-22-2004, 10:47 AM
Hey.. don't expect Jester to use any punctuation - she won't :p. As for what I said, i think i meant something else when i wrote that and I think people can easily misunderstand it and that's my mistake. The only problem is that I don't know how to explain now what i was trying to say hahaha.. oh well..:p

Jester
10-22-2004, 02:37 PM
Sorry, will try with the punctuation, bad habits and lazyness die hard...
I think what Kushi meant is that we all have the right and I know she knows that but she's not asking to take away your right just saying thatvwhenvit comes to religious discussion or debates, or arguements as this one is turning into, we need to mindfull of pissing each other off and perhaps the best way to do that is try to understand rather then get down to dirty name calling (not that that's happen just that I see that in the near furture of this thread). Using words like this is full of ____ (whatever you want to put there), this is all nonsense, wrong, stupid, you're ignorant, not true... are going to really upset people who have strong religious values as well as those that don't when used against them. She did not mean that you don't have the right to speak... :eek2:

kushi
10-23-2004, 02:20 AM
thank you...

caspian
10-23-2004, 04:35 AM
To compare Allah to anything else is merely a conceptual exercise, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that in my book. So I shall continue to make comparisons that involve Allah.

Good luck, my dear!

I believe in My BOOK and it is written there:
30. (44) Those who reject Faith will suffer from that rejection: and those who work righteousness will spread their couch (of repose) for themselves (in heaven):

30.(45) That He may reward those who believe and work righteous deeds, out of his Bounty. For He loves not those who reject Faith.

30.(52) So verily thou canst not make the dead to hear, nor canst thou make the deaf to hear the call, when they show their backs and turn away.

30.(53) Nor canst thou lead back the blind from their straying: only those wilt thou make to hear, who believe in Our signs and submit (their wills in Islam).

30.(58) verily We have propounded for men, in this Qur'an every kind of Parable: But if thou bring to them any Sign, the Unbelievers are sure to say, "Ye do nothing but talk vanities."

I think atheism idiocy but I was not going to declare it loudly just because it might sound like: atheists are idiots. Where’s my democratic principle to respect others who think different?
I can make my comments in other way not using that phrase.

I just wonder if you don’t accept that you’re creature of GOD then how you explain your creation? I can do it by the following ayat:

30.(20) Among His Signs in this, that He created you from dust; and then,- behold, ye are men scattered (far and wide)!

And I believe in it. As Sub told I was born in non-democratic and non-religious country (USSR) and at school I took Darwin’s scientific theory as my first history lesson. A.P., do you really believe that theory? Though I was quite little then I really felt bad thinking of that our ancestry is ape.

subterranean
10-24-2004, 07:47 PM
....then get down to dirty name calling (not that that's happen just that I see that in the near furture of this thread). Using words like this is full of ____ (whatever you want to put there), this is all nonsense, wrong, stupid, you're ignorant, not true... are going to really upset people who have strong religious values as well as those that don't when used against them. She did not mean that you don't have the right to speak... :eek2:

I dont think so Jes, i believed most members here are open minded intellegent people. Saying things like "stupid" in a serious way would be unlikely to happen.
And Kushi, i see your point now :)
Cheers all

atiguhya padma
11-18-2004, 06:31 AM
Caspian said: <if you don’t accept that you’re creature of GOD then how you explain your creation?>

Excuse me??? Acceptance of God as Creator explains your creation?? And you think atheists are idiots? Geez.

rocksea
11-18-2004, 07:39 AM
I think atheism idiocy but I was not going to declare it loudly just because it might sound like: atheists are idiots. Where's my democratic principle to respect others who think different?
I can make my comments in other way not using that phrase.

I just wonder if you don't accept that you're creature of GOD then how you explain your creation? I can do it by the following ayat:

I took Darwin's scientific theory as my first history lesson. A.P., do you really believe that theory? Though I was quite little then I really felt bad thinking of that our ancestry is ape.

just because something (like creation) is beyond man's grasp for the time being, it need not mean that it happened through god. there were days when our forefathers thought the sun was god. earlier civilisations like egyptian, indus etc considered sun as god. they also had books/hieroglyphics and phrases to quote. we have been evolving throughout and slowly understanding the universe. we understood the sun is one of the zillions of stars out there. let me not talk abt the darwin's theory. the evolution theory is also under evolution.. maybe there is answer to so many things we don't know. but attributing everything we don't know to god is simply laziness and foolishness.

about atheism.. if you can believe in god, why can't another person choose not to believe? you cannot just say cuz someone wrote in down on books that you should believe in god. there are so many books and beliefs like that around. if i hold up some lines in a book which say 'there is no god' like that like that..?

anyways why you shud feel bad about evolving out of apes :confused: in your religion, if everything in this world possess the essence of god, shouldn't you be happy that you are linked with another fellow creature out there? i think it is better to say apes evolved from human beings.. they are satisfied with their basic things and don't fight each other on religion/race/color or whatever man makes a mess of. :)

Amra
11-26-2004, 04:19 AM
"Would any Muslims care to explain this in the Koran:

8.12 When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore
make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of
those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off
every fingertip of them. "

Assalamu Aleikum (pease be upon you),

Before one can understand and explain the meaning of Qur'an,one must be familiar with many other things, such as why a certain verse was revealed, when, under what circumstances, whether it is applicable only to the time of the Prophet s.a.v.s(pease and blessings be upon him), or for all the time..etc. Only learned scholars are allowed to interpret the Qur'anic verses, because they study all these things in detail, before offering an explanation to a certain verse. Someone who is unfamiliar with all these fundamental things, may misunderstand the Qur'an and be misguided by many things. I will try to explain this verse, not with my own interpretation but rather with the interpretaion of the great and respected scholar Ibn Kathir (may Allah be pleased with him), whose interpretation of the Qur'an have been used and studied by many others. Another important thing one must consider is that Qur'an is not merely a religion that is concerned with morals and values, but that it is a way of life, it contains the Law for every aspect of human life, both public and privte, legal matter or social dispute. Therefore, one will find in the Qur'an everything one needs to become a righteous human being, and the implementation of Qur'anic laws will lead to a construction of a healty and just society. Allah s.v.t is not only guiding human beings on how to become better people, but also instructing them in every other aspect ot their life, which also includes rules on fighting wars with one's enemies.

Allah s.v.t says in one verse that muslims are not to fight any wars to conquer other people and kill merely for territory, but only to fight wars if they need to defend themselves. That means, muslims can only fight in a war when they have been attacked or oppressed, and should never start war themselves. Also, muslims are not allowed to kill the innocent; women, children and elderly. Allah s.v.t has forbidden them to mutilate dead bodies, destroy and burn trees and plants that are fruitful or slay enemy's flock. Wars should only be fougth as last resorts, and should be avoided whenever possible.

Now to the verse cited above. That verse was reveled concerning the battle of Badr. After the Prophet s.a.v.s and his followers started preaching Islam openly in Mecca, they were prosecuted in any imaginable way. When nothing worked, the leaders of the Quraish tribe decided to forbid anyone to trade and deal in any way with muslims. They were forbidden to sell food to them, to trade any goods, to help them, give them shelter, or even talk to muslims. Those muslims who did not have an influential relative to protect them, were beaten or even killed. During this time, the Prophet s.a.v.s decided to leave Mecca and left with his followers for the city of Medina, where they were allowed to live safely.

However, the Quraish tribe did not stop at this, but wrote letters and threats to the protectors of muslims in Medina, telling them that they will be attacked if they did not prosecute the Prophet s.a.v.s and his followers. Muslims were determined to return to their homeland and longed for their freedom. They knew that they were not strong enough to fight against the Quraish but decided instead to plan an attack on the caravans that were passing by. The Quraish sent caravans in which there were goods for sale and trade with other tribes. When one caravan, that contained valuable things and also all the belongings muslims left when they were forced out of Mecca, was supposed to come by, Prophet s.a.v.s decided that this might be a good opportunity for them to fight the Quraish. He sent two people to follow the caravan and try to learn of its path, but the Quraish heard of this, and sent word back to Mecca that muslims were preparing to attack them. Upon hearing this, an army of 1000 soldiers was raised and sent to fight the Prophet s.a.v.s and his followers. When the Prophet s.a.v.s heard of this, he summond his followers and told them that it was time to fight, and that word from Allah s.v.t has come and it contained the order to fight their enemies. Only 313 muslims were fighting this battle,they were not well equiped and were at a disadvantage in every possible way when compared to the army of the Quraish. The night before the battle, Prophet Mohammed spent praying and it is narrated that he was saying to Allah s.v.t:"O' Allah ! fulfil this day, Thy promise made unto me. O' Allah, if this little band is wiped off this day, none shall ever worship Thee till the end of world."

The next day, the battle was fought. As promised in the Qur'an, Allah s.v.t sent his army of angels to help the muslims, and they defeated the Quraish with minor losses (only 14 muslims were killed on that day). The battle became known for its importance and great consequences for muslims and the spread of Islam. Muslims were allowed to return to Mecca and start preaching Islam to other people. It is believed that if muslims had lost this battle and were defeated by the Quraish, that would have been the end of Islam. Because of this battle, and the injustice done to Prophet Mohammed and his followers, the verse:"8.12 When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off
every fingertip of them. " was revealed. It instructed muslims to fight the enemy and not be afraid, to know that Allah s.v.t is on their side, and that even though the enemy was in greater number, Allah s.v.t has filled their hearts with fear, and those who fear cannot fight successfully. The verse is only to be applied in such circumstances, when one is attacked, opressed and fights a war. It does not mean the prosecution of those who do not attack muslims, nor does it permit opression or injustice towards anyone. As noted before, Islam is the guidance for every aspect of a human life, and just as a general gives instructions to his army, so does Allah s.v.t gives instructions to those who fight for His religion, and only when they fight a defensive war, defending their lives, their religion, freedon and honor.

I hope this helps in some way...

atiguhya padma
11-26-2004, 06:36 AM
A really convincing argument. I'm just off to spend the rest of my life reading and studying the Koran. See ya later.

amuse
11-26-2004, 12:11 PM
funny, i have an assignment due wednesday, it's on the koran and a fictitious tribe that discovers it in 700 c.e.; we're to describe how it uses this book to to build their city (on socio-economic and political lines). i'm firmly believe in the separation of church and state, but well, this helps

it contains the Law for every aspect of human life, both public and privte, legal matter or social dispute.a little bit with wrapping my brain around such a very hard concept.
thanks, Amra.

Amra
11-26-2004, 03:06 PM
Assalamu aleikum (peace be upon you:) )

amuse:
"funny, i have an assignment due wednesday, it's on the koran and a fictitious tribe that discovers it in 700 c.e.; we're to describe how it uses this book to to build their city (on socio-economic and political lines). i'm firmly believe in the separation of church and state, but well, this helps
a little bit with wrapping my brain around such a very hard concept"

That should be a very interesting, if at the same time highly challenging, assignment. If you need any help, feel free to ask, but I must warn you, the islamic fiqh (islamic law) is a very complex issue, and numerous books have been written on it. If you don't have enough time, try to look up some references on the internet, just search for "islamic fiqh".

Since I am sure that the most controversial issue on islamic law is the well-known and many times misrepresented issue of "stoning of women", I will try to shed some light on this. First of all, one must understand that modesty and honor is highly regarding in Islam. Pre marriage sex is not permitted. It is believed that family is the most important institution and that everything needs to be done in order to save and protect it. Divorce is allowed, but as Allah s.v.t said, it is to Him the most hated allowed thing. Therefore, everything needs to be done in order to avoid divorce. Also, Islam is set up on the principle that everything that leads to haram (forbidden thing) is also forbidden. The laws are enforced and made for the causes, not only for the effects of certain deeds. For example, it is forbidden to drink alcohol, and to avoid being tempted by this, and to commit this sin for any reason, all precautins are taken, therefore, it is not only forbidden to drink it, but to sell or buy it, to sit with someone who drinks alcohol, to help make it etc. This eliminates all the causes that can lead to the negative effect of getting drunk, driving while under intoxication, having an accident while under the influence, figting..and many other long term effects also.

Because of this principle, Islam has implemented many rules as to how to avoid adultery, and everything that is perceived as encourages adultery or leads to it, is also punishable by law. Adultery is one of greater sins, because its consequences are grave, both for the family as well as for the whole society. Diseases are spread, families broken up, morals are lost, children are born out of wed lock, women are left to raise children themselves, if it happens during marriage, the woman may get pregnant without her husband knowing that it may not be his daugther or son etc. Because of this, adultery is punishable by death.

However, one must recognize another fact in Islam, and that is the value of human life. Allah s.v.t places a high importance on human life and says that it is sacred, and whoever kills an innocent human being, it is as though he has killed all human kind. Everything that harms human life is strictly forbidden, suicide is one of the greatest sins (it is said that those who commit it, will find themselves in hell, and their punishment will be that they will commit suicide repeatedly in the same way that they choose to take their life in this life). Therefore, before death penalty is enforced, there are laws that need to be followed to ensure justice. First of all, one must make a difference between those who commit adultery while not married, and those who are married and commit it. The punishment is not the same, because those who are married bring injustice to other people when doing such a thing; for example, they hurt their families, risk divorce, could spread diesase to their unknowing spouse etc.

When two people, who are not married, commit adultery, their punishment is to be wipped by 100 stripes. In the verse, Allah s.v.t says:"2. The Zaniyah(adulterer) and the Zani(adulteress), flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment."(Surah En-Nur, verse 2) If a woman or man commits adultery while they are married, their punishment is to be stoned to death. Before this can be enforced, however, one must produce four witnesses who will give an oath before the judge and swear that they have seen those accused of commiting adultery. If one cannot produce four witnesses to the crime, the punishment cannot be enforced. In the same surah, verse 4, Allah s.v.t says: "And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever. They indeed are the rebellious." In this verse, it is obvious, how sacred human life and honor are, and that one cannot go around accusing women of having committed adultery, if one does not have any proof, except one's own suspicion.
The most important and most neglected verse, when it comes to adultery, is the following:
"6. And for those who accuse their wives, but have no witnesses except themselves, let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies by Allah that he is one of those who speak the truth.
7. And the fifth (testimony); invoking of the curse of Allah on him if he be of those who tell a lie.
8. But she shall avert the punishment from her, if she bears witness four times by Allah, that he is telling a lie.
9. And the fifth; should be that the wrath of Allah be upon her if he speaks the truth.
10. And had it not been for the grace of Allah and His mercy on you! And that Allah is the One Who forgives and accepts repentance, the All-Wise."

This shows that if there are no four witnesses to testify of the crime, and only the husband accuses his wife of commiting it, he has to swear four times by Allah, that he is telling the truth, and the fifth time invoke the course of Allah if he is telling the lie. However, if the wife swears four times that her husband is lying, and the fifth time asks for God's wrath if he is not lying, no punishment can be carried out. In this case, the witness of the accused is higher than that of the accuser, because, as I stated earlier, human life is sacred, and if there is not enough evidence, than it must be saved from punishment, in this case death.

I hope this will help disperse some of the negativity regarding this law, since one can see how hard it is to ever enforce it in real life, and that it is merely used to scare of those who think about committing adultery. How many times can one really produce four witnesses when adultery is committed? One should think about these things before judging this rule or blaming muslims for being primitive savages.

Bleeding Pawn
04-05-2013, 03:24 PM
ever read the verse that said, religious men who go to heaven will get beautiful angels as their new beloved wifes..? however no verse who stated that religious women will get hot sexy husbands once they go to heaven..

not trying to disgrace the belief or the book. just wondering..

According to the Lit-Net The Koran (Al-Qur'an), I found that it was translated as `Fair Women`(The Smoke 044.054 Y) not beautiful angels because according to their faith angels have no gender ( I would like the Moslems to correct me if i am wrong). Regarding the question i was also curious about it since my childhood but i did not get any answers and i am disappointed that no one gave the answer to this specific query, if any one now knows please come forward and i would also try to find out about them.

Quast
04-16-2013, 07:39 PM
According to the Lit-Net The Koran (Al-Qur'an), I found that it was translated as `Fair Women`(The Smoke 044.054 Y) not beautiful angels because according to their faith angels have no gender ( I would like the Moslems to correct me if i am wrong).
I don't understand you correctly, but from what i know angel created from "Noor" light, and yes there are not like us, angels have no gender like us. Allah god created them to pray for him and they never refuse to do what Allah tell them to do.

this is what i know والله أعلم

Bleeding Pawn
04-25-2013, 03:35 PM
May be you can help solve this puzzle since I have searched most orthodox Islamic books but I never found anything even closely related to what I was looking for . Recently I asked a Moslem Arab preacher, equivalent to a sunday school,chaplain this very particular question and she told me that the reason it is not mentioned or revealed any where, its because the perception of women in Islam is that of one surrounded by the aura of dignity and modesty and since God, as the creator, knows the qualities of each of His creation, so He deliberately kept it hidden.

Another version comes from a religious male figure of that community, who also strictly contradicted the female version, saying that when pious women would enter Heaven, they would be paired with their earthly pious partners or if that is not then case any other righteous male, equivalent to her position in paradise, would be partnered with her.

Which notion is accurate , we still do not know. Does Moslems here have any idea?

Zemouli Chahra
06-21-2013, 01:36 PM
[QUOTE=
Another version comes from a religious male figure of that community, who also strictly contradicted the female version, saying that when pious women would enter Heaven, they would be paired with their earthly pious partners or if that is not then case any other righteous male, equivalent to her position in paradise, would be partnered with her.

Which notion is accurate , we still do not know. Does Moslems here have any idea?[/QUOTE]

I agree with the second... because women in paradise will be the most beautiful ones and they will have their husbands... concerning the other beatiful women, there will be no jealousy or hatred

RedemedbyGrace
07-14-2013, 12:36 AM
8.12 When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore
make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of
those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off
every fingertip of them.
First sentence: The Lord revealed himself to the angels, remember there was one angel who betrayed him. Metaphors: cast terror, terror (into the depths of hell), Strike off their heads (faceless in the kingdom of Heaven), they will never be identified in the Book of Life. Never to enter into Heaven. But suffer enteral Hell.
Now, I am not saying this IS the explanation, but one interpretation.

caddy_caddy
07-24-2013, 04:59 PM
One thing that I should not say is " I DON"T Fear God "
As a muslim no one should say so but that"s what I really feel and can"t understand why people are afraid of Him
Such verses are made to throw fear in our hearts but when I read the koran I dont feel terrified ( although iam the addressee in many of these verses )
Most of the time I cry out of the " mercy and love of God "
This impression overcomes any other impression while reading
I wish i am terrified by those verses so i will do my duties as a muslim ( i do none )
Jesus says " with love there is no fear "
This is very true but fear is not that bad >it could help somehow although It shouldnt be the main motivation in our relation with God >